Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

[DFW Horn 6640]

Quote

Hell, not the same thing, but there's a recent story from Missouri still trying to blame Texas's greed for why Missouri left for the SEC in 2011. That bullshit wasn't called out then and never has been by our conference partners, they just let everyone run with that story because they liked the evil Texas narrative. And, for the record, Missouri deserves a lot more of your scorn than they're getting.

Mizzou's rationale for leaving the Big 12 didn't get much scrutiny because nobody besides Kansas even missed them.

[Huckleberry 34413]

2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Lol, you know you don't truly believe that, and you don't care, which I wouldn't either if we had an invite.

I care a great deal about it because as I've said before Texas badly needs another top flight university. I care about where most schools in the Big 12 end up, actually, but especially about Tech for that reason.

The ones I genuinely don't care about at all are Baylor and TCU. And West Virginia just because whatever, they're way over there. And I guess Kansas State because come on, is that even really a university?

But still, that means I care about 6 of the 10 teams, so that's most.

[89Horn 1735]

4 hours ago, DFW Horn said:

 

Damnit, now I have in my mind the tail end of that opening credits music but with: 

“W-V-U-M in Cincinnati”

The M Being for Mountaineers.

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

15 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I've specifically stated as "Big 12 sources" to the media. They do it anonymously, so I'm not going to have names for Al.

And I said I believe you @Al_4_ISU that you don't see much of it but that is based on location and reading choices. I mean all you have to do is google Texas Longhorns greedy and there will be plenty of results that claim to have sources from the Big 12. Hell, not the same thing, but there's a recent story from Missouri still trying to blame Texas's greed for why Missouri left for the SEC in 2011. That bullshit wasn't called out then and never has been by our conference partners, they just let everyone run with that story because they liked the evil Texas narrative. And, for the record, Missouri deserves a lot more of your scorn than they're getting. I still hope ISU ends up in the Big Ten somehow so you can laugh at Mizzou.

Again, ISU's AD has on many occasions shown very public gratitude to UT and OU.  You're citing an example of a school that left a decade ago, and is a prime example of the whole "we're too good for the rest of these schools that are just like us" attitude I've decried.

Here is Jamie Pollard, ISU AD, in 2011, talking about how happy he is that Texas got the LHN put together.  Definitely a pot shot from an ingrate if I ever saw it.  This is a remaining 8 AD standing up for Texas in the court of public opinion.

https://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports/article_05056b88-24f1-11e0-8ae7-001cc4c03286.html

 

Missouri avoids scorn because they lacked power.  Much like Colorado.  Missouri was a huge piece of shit in round one, which is why Kansas refused for well over a decade to play them.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Al_4_ISU

[billfromlaketravis 11791]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

Lol, you know you don't truly believe that, and you don't care, which I wouldn't either if we had an invite.

I didn't say a better place, but a very good place. Tech is always going to be screwed because of geography. I think the Irate 8 + UCF, UH, BYU, and Cincy is about where Tech belongs. 

I don't see the new Big 12 as relegation. The conference will almost certainly receive an automatic bid when the playoffs expand. If OK State wins the Big 12, they'll have the same chance as the Big Ten, Pac 12, ACC, and SEC champions. Just as OK State had a chance to play for the national title in 2011 before losing to Iowa State. Win your games and the rest will take care of itself. 

In my opinion, the Irate 8 are pissed because they can't rub elbows with blue bloods in the group photo anymore. My advice to them is to build up their programs to elite status. Florida State, Clemson and Oregon are good recent examples. It can happen with the right coach. 

[Huckleberry 34413]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Again, ISU's AD has on many occasions shown very public gratitude to UT and OU.  You're citing an example of a school that left a decade ago, and is a prime example of the whole "we're too good for the rest of these schools that are just like us" attitude I've decried.

Here is Jamie Pollard, ISU AD, in 2011, talking about how happy he is that Texas got the LHN put together.  Definitely a pot shot from an ingrate if I ever saw it.

https://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports/article_05056b88-24f1-11e0-8ae7-001cc4c03286.html

 

Missouri avoids scorn because they lacked power.  Much like Colorado.  Missouri was a huge piece of shit in round one, which is why Kansas refused for well over a decade to play them.

It seems like you still haven't registered the part where I started this discussion by stating ISU is not a real culprit in this behavior. I get why you're sensitive about the situation but I've never said anything about ISU being a poor conference partner. In fact I've said the exact opposite when explaining why they would be a good addition for the Big Ten. 

Also, the Missouri reference is a decade old but is the entire point. Most of the Big 12 wants Texas's subsidization and loyalty but has never shown any loyalty in return. Missouri and A&M's departure was a perfect opportunity to act like loyal conference partners when those schools blatantly lied about their exits. Most of the conference was silent, some of the conference egged it on. 

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

8 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It seems like you still haven't registered the part where I started this discussion by stating ISU is not a real culprit in this behavior. I get why you're sensitive about the situation but I've never said anything about ISU being a poor conference partner. In fact I've said the exact opposite when explaining why they would be a good addition for the Big Ten. 

Also, the Missouri reference is a decade old but is the entire point. Most of the Big 12 wants Texas's subsidization and loyalty but has never shown any loyalty in return. Missouri and A&M's departure was a perfect opportunity to act like loyal conference partners when those schools blatantly lied about their exits. Most of the conference was silent, some of the conference egged it on. 

My point is that from what I can tell, the schools that talked shit about Texas are the ones who left.

You've been talking about Texas subsidizing ingrates.  I agree that Texas has been subsidizing the remaining 8.  I don't agree that they've been ungrateful.  The "big bad Texas" narrative was pushed primarily (exclusively?) by the schools that left.

I showed an example of a remaining 8 school defending Texas publicly.  I realize you aren't throwing ISU under the bus, and I appreciate the kind thoughts, so who are you throwing under the bus?  The one school you pointed out is a school that you're leaving the remaining 8 to associate with.  Show me a remaining 8 school making a "Texas is bad" statement prior to July of 2021 and I'll shut up about it.

Were the remaining 8 supposed to all make public statements about how much they loved Texas?  Would that have saved the league?

I don't think Texas left over a lack of gratitude.  It feels good to say it from your perspective like it feels good for us to just say you're assholes, but neither one is necessarily dispositive.  It has way more to do with a belief among UT fans and donors that we were boring and hurting your brand than it does with us not being thankful for the association, IMO.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Al_4_ISU

[DFW Horn 6640]

22 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The ones I genuinely don't care about at all are Baylor and TCU. And West Virginia just because whatever, they're way over there. And I guess Kansas State because come on, is that even really a university?

I heard you say that in your Archer voice. You should've referenced hillbillies, too, like they do on the show.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

This thread is a perfect micro-example of why the Big 12 2.0 doesn't work.

[DFW Horn 6640]

15 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I didn't say a better place, but a very good place. Tech is always going to be screwed because of geography. I think the Irate 8 + UCF, UH, BYU, and Cincy is about where Tech belongs. 

I don't see the new Big 12 as relegation. The conference will almost certainly receive an automatic bid when the playoffs expand. If OK State wins the Big 12, they'll have the same chance as the Big Ten, Pac 12, ACC, and SEC champions. Just as OK State had a chance to play for the national title in 2011 before losing to Iowa State. Win your games and the rest will take care of itself. 

In my opinion, the Irate 8 are pissed because they can't rub elbows with blue bloods in the group photo anymore. My advice to them is to build up their programs to elite status. Florida State, Clemson and Oregon are good recent examples. It can happen with the right coach. 

None of the Irate 8 were making a 4-team playoff unless they were undefeated anyway.

BU and TCU will attest to that. TV has always been pulling the strings.

[SimonBolivar 11048]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Like you guys keep saying with us, people aren't tuning in to see Iowa play Minnesota. They tune in when Iowa plays tOSU or Mich. 

People are the worst.

[billfromlaketravis 11791]

1 minute ago, DFW Horn said:

None of the Irate 8 were making a 4-team playoff unless they were undefeated anyway.

BU and TCU will attest to that. TV has always been pulling the strings.

Correct the CFP is a television contract. That's it. 

[Huckleberry 34413]

6 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

My point is that from what I can tell, the schools that talked shit about Texas are the ones who left.

You've been talking about Texas subsidizing ingrates.  I agree that Texas has been subsidizing the remaining 8.  I don't agree that they've been ungrateful.  The "big bad Texas" narrative was pushed primarily (exclusively?) by the schools that left.

I showed an example of a remaining 8 school defending Texas publicly.  I realize you aren't throwing ISU under the bus, and I appreciate the kind thoughts, so who are you throwing under the bus?  The one school you pointed out is a school that you're leaving the remaining 8 to associate with.  Show me a remaining 8 school making a "Texas is bad" statement prior to July of 2021 and I'll shut up about it.

Were the remaining 8 supposed to all make public statements about how much they loved Texas?  Would that have saved the league?

I don't think Texas left over a lack of gratitude.  It feels good to say it from your perspective like it feels good for us to just say you're assholes, but neither one is necessarily dispositive.  It has way more to do with a belief among UT fans and donors that we were boring and hurting your brand than it does with us not being thankful for the association, IMO.

Baylor and TCU are the main backstabbing ingrates right now, hence their position front and center in my list of schools I don't care about when it comes to landing spots. Oklahoma State occasionally from what I understand (which is obviously at least second hand info because I'm not a journalist) which I assumed was because they historically thought OU would protect them. But the Cowboys not as recently. 

I've always just considered Kansas as that guy in the corner covering his face by looking down when Texas's third tier rights "greed" is discussed. Those rascally Jayhawks.

Ironically to most people, another school I've never heard about leaking greedy Texas stories to the press is OU. I've only heard about those assholes grinning and saying no comment. I assume the grinning part was metaphorical but who knows with those shitheads. 

You are indeed correct a lot of it was historical, but the conference died a decade ago, it was just a slow death. By the time the smarter remaining schools figured out that shitting on Texas all the time wasn't going to work out for them long term, especially after the other 4 left them nowhere to go, it was too late. I won't deny that Texas has been at least contemplating more stable ground continuously since the SWC died. But that's just fiduciary duty when the Big 12 was unstable from the beginning, and Texas was not the sole or even majority reason for that instability, just a contributing one. 

What I am arguing and will continue to argue is that the Big 12 could have been that stable home if it hadn't taken the wrong turn at nearly every major decision point. Texas certainly helped steer the wrong way sometimes (see what I did there?) but not nearly every time. And that's exactly why some of us are saying better conference leadership from the beginning would have helped. You can say the conference network thing was a long time ago but consider how much different the world looks right now if the Big 12 Network had been the first successful conference third tier creation. 

[Teamdirtyleg 1139]

 

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I agree with you on Bowlsby.  I'm not shifting anything.   I just think he's nearly completely irrelevant.

The Big 12 didn't expand in '16 because Texas and Oklahoma didn't want it to.  There's a concrete example of the conference doing something because OU and UT wanted a certain outcome.

Those two school wisely didn't want to split revenue even more with shittastic schools like Houston and Cincinnati that bring zero additional eyeballs, perceived competitiveness, or prestige to the Big 12.

[Nivek 17370]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Yes, 100%.  I think all of the remaining Big 12 schools knew it was in our financial best interest to make this workable for Texas and OU.

I think you left over things that we couldn't give you - basically bigger name brands on the home schedule and the same kind of TV dollars that you get joining with Bama.

• You continue to look at it through the lens of ISU and not from OU/UT's perspective.  OU's official complaint was about the scheduling, they were tired of seeing the headlining act open for Kansas-esque programs and for Okie State programs.  Our grips on here include officiating which FUCK ALL has been done to address.   Texas didn't really give an official reason for the move.   What did the league do to placate the Sooners? They gave them more early games.   I watched those officials from our Louisiana game and I was impressed with the officiating.  It was competent, not perfect.  It was completely acceptable.   It was exactly the standard that we should have but do not have.  Were the penalties lopsided against us, and was it fair? Yes to both.    
   
• Money.  Does the additional revenue make sense for OU/UT? Absolutely.  Would your school jump at the chance of an invite? Absolutely.   Would you personally jump at the chance to make 50% more money for doing the same job in the same town and you will have an easier path to MNC?  Absolutely.   Yes it is easier, because mulligans are given in the SEC, but not the B12, Pac, B10.   Plus we might get to scheduling 4 auto wins a year (Bishop Sycamore and Duchene here we come!) and cherry pick our bowl opponents.  
   
• NU left because they were humiliated by Texas, OU, and they had almost come to accept it but Texas Tech broke them.  They blame it all on Texas, because they could not face the fact that a mid-major program like Texas Tech just destroyed them and the trajectory was looking bad for them.  They were not even competitive in their division anymore as Mizzou took the mantle.  They ran from the conference, but blame Texas because blaming Mizzou and Texas Tech would cause them to face their own reality.  They manufactured excuses in the process.   Opponents of Texas jumped on the bandwagon.    They all are quiet about the original idea for the B12 network, Lonestar Network, unequal revenue sharing votes, and the bribe to keep OU/Texas/aggy in the conference details though for some fucking reason (sarcasm).
   
• Houston/ISU are the caliber of schools where coaches develop their skills and can springboard into a feature program, but often enough they find coaches that love that level of play and you get guys like Gary Pinkel who ultimately retire from coaching at that level.    That is the reality of these programs.  There is nothing wrong with it, but if you are Houston, you know that coaches that do well there might leave to coach Michigan.  
   
• You mentioned about the rankings earlier.  The rankings are crap.  They are meaningless and if you took the top 4 from last year, then made a list of the remaining 21 schools, and threw them on the floor and asked your toddler to pick them up, that would be probably more accurate than the current preseason rankings.  LSU was shit last year, and they were ranked above Texas.  Both replace players and a significant number of coaches, yet Texas was better last year.   The idea that you are using it to convince yourself that the new B12 is going to be solid is reaching at best.  This will be the only major conference without a major elite anchor program.  Can those mid-major programs compete? Sure.   Will the conference turn out to be full of giant slayers come bowl season?  Probably not.

 

[Deej 77685]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

I personally can't stand the fact that OU gets away with holding on literally every offensive play in Bedlam. Conference doesn't do shit to stop them as long as they're winning.

I can't feel badly for you. 

 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, trza-hawk said:

If true, that means Rice and Tulane only have about one day to persuade all eight members left in the Big 12 that they are the better schools to add.

 

 

Tulane’s an entirely better road trip than Provo…

[Guest Lobo]

What do you have against Spain?

['stache 22119]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Tulane’s an entirely better road trip than Provo…

I like the outdoors, also like NO, so it's pretty even to me. The roadtrip I give absolutely zero shits about is UCF. Orlando to me is a giant suburb with a popular park. I just don't give a single shit about the park or its surroundings. Plus, florida.

[Vertigo 20484]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

I care a great deal about it because as I've said before Texas badly needs another top flight university. I care about where most schools in the Big 12 end up, actually, but especially about Tech for that reason.

The ones I genuinely don't care about at all are Baylor and TCU. And West Virginia just because whatever, they're way over there. And I guess Kansas State because come on, is that even really a university?

But still, that means I care about 6 of the 10 teams, so that's most.

I would agree. For me it is Tech, Ok State, and ISU that I really hope to find P4 landing spots. Good fans, good schools, and mostly good people outside of the Crabtree game drunken blackout thug crowd. Beyond that, I would like to see WVU get in because they have been fun, but the rest are just no value added outside of KU basketball. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18934]

2 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Ok, I'll give you a chance to make an intellectually honest argument.

Lay out what this hypothetical competent leader could have done to keep Texas and OU in the league.  No psycho-babble about "competency" and "vision".  Concrete, real life examples of moves that could be made.

Here's an example: how about the commish compel every team in the Big 12 to actively build their own brand by consistently scheduling real OOC games instead of going the full Bill Snyder KSU cupcake route? How about building brand value in the schools not named Oklahoma or Texas to raise the profile of the entire conference? This conference was DOA when Baylor and TCU got passed up for Ohio State in the playoff. The complaint was that Ohio State was a name brand that would draw ratings but the truth was that the non conference schedule for TCU and Baylor that year was: Samford, Minnesota, SMUx2 (yeah, they both played the ponies), Northwestern State and Buffalo. Ohio State's only loss was to Virginia Tech, a real team that they played OOC, because they aren't a bunch of pussies.

The last time Baylor played any sort of relevant national OOC game was in 1997 when they had both Michigan and Miami. They have BYU this year -- congrats, once every quarter century they have a moderately interesting OOC game. 

Iowa State plays Iowa every year. Nobody gives a fuck outside of the 12 people who live in Iowa (no offense). The last real nonconference team you played besides Iowa was Florida State in 2002. Twenty fucking years. That's as far as I was willing to go back.

Okie State has actually played some real nonconference games - Georgia, Florida State, UCLA along with some serious garbage, but for the most part, good for them.

Tech hasn't played a big brand since Ohio State in 2002. They have the Arizona schools, Arkansas and Ole Miss sprinkled in there but those games don't move the needle and the majority of their schedule is an embarrassment. 

Since TCU joined the conference in 2012, they had a neutral site game against Ohio State at Jerryworld and a home+home against Arkansas, but middle of the road to complete ass otherwise.

I'm not even looking up KSU or Kansas because they will prove my point even more.

Off the top of my head, in the same time period Texas has played OOC - Notre Dame, BYU, UCLA, USC, LSU, and Ohio State. We have Bama, Michigan and Ohio State on the docket coming up. OU has played Bama, Oregon, UCLA, Washington, Miami, Florida State, BYU, Tennessee, and Ohio State. They have Nebraska this year.

So you want to keep Texas and OU in the league? Create value to them by scheduling (and maybe every once in a while beating) other name brand programs and raise the entire profile of the league. That way, you not only make more money for your conference mates instead of leaching off of them, but you also make it so where your main in state rival can't use conference affiliation as a negative recruiting tactic. 

The bottom line is that the rest of the conference has done next to nothing to add value to the conference outside of spending all of the money that Texas and OU earned for them to overpay their coaches and build out their facilities.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Here's an example: how about the commish compel every team in the Big 12 to actively build their own brand by consistently scheduling real OOC games instead of going the full Bill Snyder KSU cupcake route? How about building brand value in the schools not named Oklahoma or Texas to raise the profile of the entire conference? This conference was DOA when Baylor and TCU got passed up for Ohio State in the playoff. The complaint was that Ohio State was a name brand that would draw ratings but the truth was that the non conference schedule for TCU and Baylor that year was: Samford, Minnesota, SMUx2 (yeah, they both played the ponies), Northwestern State and Buffalo. Ohio State's only loss was to Virginia Tech, a real team that they played OOC, because they aren't a bunch of pussies.

The last time Baylor played any sort of relevant national OOC game was in 1997 when they had both Michigan and Miami. They have BYU this year -- congrats, once every quarter century they have a moderately interesting OOC game. 

Iowa State plays Iowa every year. Nobody gives a fuck outside of the 12 people who live in Iowa (no offense). The last real nonconference team you played besides Iowa was Florida State in 2002. Twenty fucking years. That's as far as I was willing to go back.

Okie State has actually played some real nonconference games - Georgia, Florida State, UCLA along with some serious garbage, but for the most part, good for them.

Tech hasn't played a big brand since Ohio State in 2002. They have the Arizona schools, Arkansas and Ole Miss sprinkled in there but those games don't move the needle and the majority of their schedule is an embarrassment. 

Since TCU joined the conference in 2012, they had a neutral site game against Ohio State at Jerryworld and a home+home against Arkansas, but middle of the road to complete ass otherwise.

I'm not even looking up KSU or Kansas because they will prove my point even more.

Off the top of my head, in the same time period Texas has played OOC - Notre Dame, BYU, UCLA, USC, LSU, and Ohio State. We have Bama, Michigan and Ohio State on the docket coming up. OU has played Bama, Oregon, UCLA, Washington, Miami, Florida State, BYU, Tennessee, and Ohio State. They have Nebraska this year.

So you want to keep Texas and OU in the league? Create value to them by scheduling (and maybe every once in a while beating) other name brand programs and raise the entire profile of the league. That way, you not only make more money for your conference mates instead of leaching off of them, but you also make it so where your main in state rival can't use conference affiliation as a negative recruiting tactic. 

The bottom line is that the rest of the conference has done next to nothing to add value to the conference outside of spending all of the money that Texas and OU earned for them to overpay their coaches and build out their facilities.

Pay should be docked when you schedule nothing but shit out of conference.  It costs the conference TV money, which is pooled.

[billfromlaketravis 11791]

@Al_4_ISU

 

[Scholz 12303]

2 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I would like to see this examples of the Big 12 also rans bitching about the hand that feeds them.  I've provided a few examples of my Big 12 also ran being very publicly grateful towards OU and UT (especially).  Again, if it's Tech and Baylor I wouldn't see that.  But you keep alluding to it and haven't really shown me where they're doing it.

From my perspective, we've always been pretty aware of our place and pretty thankful that OU and UT stuck around.

You also said, "I doubt any of us that aren't Texas schools are gonna be in a real big hurry to schedule you guys.  I'm pretty sure our admins hate your admins' guts."

 

So you're grateful we stuck around for 10 years making you tens or hundreds of millions of dollars but now that we're not going to do it forever, you hate our guts and it feels really good to call us assholes?  I got that right?  🙄

 

[Valmy77 13570]

We are all victims of forces beyond our control. They can certainly find us and OU as physical targets for their hate of those forces.

I mean I am certainly not happy about having to go to the fucking SEC but that is what the current landscape of college sports means. We could either flee to the super conference or become members of a minor league. OU was going one way or another I think that is clear, Texas could either go with them or doom itself to irrelevance. Might we have gone anyway without OU, if OU wanted to stay? I don't know we have had such chaos and so many changes of leadership over the past decade I do not know if we had a coherent plan and didn't just react to events. Though I should point out that SEC has been trying to get us since the 1980s. If we had wanted to go to the SEC at any point we could have done so decades ago but now events have forced our hand. That is my view.

But I don't think we are going to get many warm feelings or gratitude from the rest of the Big 12, I get it. They will blame us forever until something better comes along for them and that is understandable. Though, you know, fuck Baylor.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Valmy77

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

29 minutes ago, Scholz said:

You also said, "I doubt any of us that aren't Texas schools are gonna be in a real big hurry to schedule you guys.  I'm pretty sure our admins hate your admins' guts."

 

So you're grateful we stuck around for 10 years making you tens or hundreds of millions of dollars but now that we're not going to do it forever, you hate our guts and it feels really good to call us assholes?  I got that right?  🙄

 

I would imagine your admins told the others that they were happy while they were working with the SEC, no?  That's what they would be be pissed off about.

If Texas and OU were telling the other schools "hey, there are problems in this league and we need your help to fix them" and the rest of the league said "fuck you, we'll cash our checks" than the 8 have no right to be upset.  I highly doubt that's what happened.  My guess is Del Conte and Joe C told everyone else things were great in order to keep them in dark because they knew what was going to get offered was something the 8 could never match or give them.

[Teamdirtyleg 1139]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

I can't feel badly for you. 

 

yah, I'm mad all over again about that game after watching that.  

[Valmy77 13570]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I would imagine your admins told the others that they were happy while they were working with the SEC, no?  That's what they would be be pissed off about.

If Texas and OU were telling the other schools "hey, there are problems in this league and we need your help to fix them" and the rest of the league said "fuck you, we'll cash our checks" than the 8 have no right to be upset.  I highly doubt that's what happened.  My guess is Del Conte and Joe C told everyone else things were great in order to keep them in dark because they knew what was going to get offered was something the 8 could never match or give them.

Well I do agree they kept them in the dark, OU was certainly loudly bitching about the TV thing right up the SEC announcement.

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

• You continue to look at it through the lens of ISU and not from OU/UT's perspective.  OU's official complaint was about the scheduling, they were tired of seeing the headlining act open for Kansas-esque programs and for Okie State programs.  Our grips on here include officiating which FUCK ALL has been done to address.   Texas didn't really give an official reason for the move.   What did the league do to placate the Sooners? They gave them more early games.   I watched those officials from our Louisiana game and I was impressed with the officiating.  It was competent, not perfect.  It was completely acceptable.   It was exactly the standard that we should have but do not have.  Were the penalties lopsided against us, and was it fair? Yes to both.    
   
• Money.  Does the additional revenue make sense for OU/UT? Absolutely.  Would your school jump at the chance of an invite? Absolutely.   Would you personally jump at the chance to make 50% more money for doing the same job in the same town and you will have an easier path to MNC?  Absolutely.   Yes it is easier, because mulligans are given in the SEC, but not the B12, Pac, B10.   Plus we might get to scheduling 4 auto wins a year (Bishop Sycamore and Duchene here we come!) and cherry pick our bowl opponents.  
   
• NU left because they were humiliated by Texas, OU, and they had almost come to accept it but Texas Tech broke them.  They blame it all on Texas, because they could not face the fact that a mid-major program like Texas Tech just destroyed them and the trajectory was looking bad for them.  They were not even competitive in their division anymore as Mizzou took the mantle.  They ran from the conference, but blame Texas because blaming Mizzou and Texas Tech would cause them to face their own reality.  They manufactured excuses in the process.   Opponents of Texas jumped on the bandwagon.    They all are quiet about the original idea for the B12 network, Lonestar Network, unequal revenue sharing votes, and the bribe to keep OU/Texas/aggy in the conference details though for some fucking reason (sarcasm).
   
• Houston/ISU are the caliber of schools where coaches develop their skills and can springboard into a feature program, but often enough they find coaches that love that level of play and you get guys like Gary Pinkel who ultimately retire from coaching at that level.    That is the reality of these programs.  There is nothing wrong with it, but if you are Houston, you know that coaches that do well there might leave to coach Michigan.  
   
• You mentioned about the rankings earlier.  The rankings are crap.  They are meaningless and if you took the top 4 from last year, then made a list of the remaining 21 schools, and threw them on the floor and asked your toddler to pick them up, that would be probably more accurate than the current preseason rankings.  LSU was shit last year, and they were ranked above Texas.  Both replace players and a significant number of coaches, yet Texas was better last year.   The idea that you are using it to convince yourself that the new B12 is going to be solid is reaching at best.  This will be the only major conference without a major elite anchor program.  Can those mid-major programs compete? Sure.   Will the conference turn out to be full of giant slayers come bowl season?  Probably not.

 

1) The fans of every school in the league hate the refs.  Every one.  

2) Yeah, we agree here.

3) Yeah, you see me giving Nebraska any kind of a pass?  I've always put them at the top of the reasons the original Big 12 broke up.

4) K.

5) The new Big 12 can be better than the Pac 12 and the bulk of the ACC.  It can't be better than the Big 10 and SEC.  I don't think this is a controversial statement at any point.  The Pac 12 fucking sucks.  It has "brands", I guess, but no one cares about those brands and they're actually not good at football.  This applies to a lot of the ACC outside of Clemson too.

[Teamdirtyleg 1139]

49 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Iowa (no offense).

GDGD

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

2 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Well I do agree they kept them in the dark, OU was certainly loudly bitching about the TV thing right up the SEC announcement.

Definitely.  I'm curious what the Big 12 was supposed to do on that.  The TV Networks put them in this slot, and it's very obvious that a certain TV Network was intentionally trying to make OU and Texas unhappy in their current home.

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

52 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Here's an example: how about the commish compel every team in the Big 12 to actively build their own brand by consistently scheduling real OOC games instead of going the full Bill Snyder KSU cupcake route? How about building brand value in the schools not named Oklahoma or Texas to raise the profile of the entire conference? This conference was DOA when Baylor and TCU got passed up for Ohio State in the playoff. The complaint was that Ohio State was a name brand that would draw ratings but the truth was that the non conference schedule for TCU and Baylor that year was: Samford, Minnesota, SMUx2 (yeah, they both played the ponies), Northwestern State and Buffalo. Ohio State's only loss was to Virginia Tech, a real team that they played OOC, because they aren't a bunch of pussies.

The last time Baylor played any sort of relevant national OOC game was in 1997 when they had both Michigan and Miami. They have BYU this year -- congrats, once every quarter century they have a moderately interesting OOC game. 

Iowa State plays Iowa every year. Nobody gives a fuck outside of the 12 people who live in Iowa (no offense). The last real nonconference team you played besides Iowa was Florida State in 2002. Twenty fucking years. That's as far as I was willing to go back.

Okie State has actually played some real nonconference games - Georgia, Florida State, UCLA along with some serious garbage, but for the most part, good for them.

Tech hasn't played a big brand since Ohio State in 2002. They have the Arizona schools, Arkansas and Ole Miss sprinkled in there but those games don't move the needle and the majority of their schedule is an embarrassment. 

Since TCU joined the conference in 2012, they had a neutral site game against Ohio State at Jerryworld and a home+home against Arkansas, but middle of the road to complete ass otherwise.

I'm not even looking up KSU or Kansas because they will prove my point even more.

Off the top of my head, in the same time period Texas has played OOC - Notre Dame, BYU, UCLA, USC, LSU, and Ohio State. We have Bama, Michigan and Ohio State on the docket coming up. OU has played Bama, Oregon, UCLA, Washington, Miami, Florida State, BYU, Tennessee, and Ohio State. They have Nebraska this year.

So you want to keep Texas and OU in the league? Create value to them by scheduling (and maybe every once in a while beating) other name brand programs and raise the entire profile of the league. That way, you not only make more money for your conference mates instead of leaching off of them, but you also make it so where your main in state rival can't use conference affiliation as a negative recruiting tactic. 

The bottom line is that the rest of the conference has done next to nothing to add value to the conference outside of spending all of the money that Texas and OU earned for them to overpay their coaches and build out their facilities.

Did Texas and OU ever ask the other schools to schedule better games?

I'm not being flippant here, I'm trying to ascertain to what extent gripes were expressed and to what extent they were accommodated or ignored.

[Scholz 12303]

4 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I would imagine your admins told the others that they were happy while they were working with the SEC, no?  That's what they would be be pissed off about.

If Texas and OU were telling the other schools "hey, there are problems in this league and we need your help to fix them" and the rest of the league said "fuck you, we'll cash our checks" than the 8 have no right to be upset.  I highly doubt that's what happened.  My guess is Del Conte and Joe C told everyone else things were great in order to keep them in dark because they knew what was going to get offered was something the 8 could never match or give them.

Neither Texas nor OU had any responsibility to inform the Big XII of their future plans.  Business is business.  The Big XII wasn't fixable.

All I'm saying is that Texas made you a lot of money over the past decade.  And we didn't have to.  So making us out to be evil now is unfair IMO.

['stache 22119]

Just now, Al_4_ISU said:

Did Texas and OU ever ask the other schools to schedule better games?

I'm not being flippant here, I'm trying to ascertain to what extent gripes were expressed and to what extent they were accommodated or ignored.

Each SEC team plays a nobody in November. Doesn't seem to be a problem for their tv partners.

[Huckleberry 34413]

11 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I would imagine your admins told the others that they were happy while they were working with the SEC, no?  That's what they would be be pissed off about.

If Texas and OU were telling the other schools "hey, there are problems in this league and we need your help to fix them" and the rest of the league said "fuck you, we'll cash our checks" than the 8 have no right to be upset.  I highly doubt that's what happened.  My guess is Del Conte and Joe C told everyone else things were great in order to keep them in dark because they knew what was going to get offered was something the 8 could never match or give them.

Meh, I doubt either Texas or Oklahoma was telling everyone hey everything's great we love this conference it's just perfect blah blah blah.

I certainly know that they weren't telling everyone that they were about to reach an agreement with the SEC but that doesn't mean they were going out of their way to lie to the others. When Bowlsby the Clown was asked if he worried about realignment he didn't say that he'd received reassurance from everyone that nothing was happening, he just said it didn't worry him and didn't keep him up at night. Translation: he hadn't even asked recently. You saw his utter confusion and befuddlement after the TX/OU announcement.

"But the GOR! It says 99 years! How could this happen?!?!?"

He was mad that the two schools had been working with him on the playoff thing and were planning to leave the whole time. That's the only thing he said about it. There's no way that during his juvenile explosion on Twitter and via statements that he wouldn't have mentioned Texas and Oklahoma telling the rest of the conference that everything was fine and they weren't going anywhere if it had happened. The man publicly accused the AAC of trying to poach Big 12 conference members. You know, while he was planning to poach AAC conference members. If he had any inkling of TX/OU doing that he would have said so.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Huckleberry

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

Just now, Scholz said:

Neither Texas nor OU had any responsibility to inform the Big XII of their future plans.  Business is business.  The Big XII wasn't fixable.

All I'm saying is that Texas made you a lot of money over the past decade.  And we didn't have to.  So making us out to be evil now is unfair IMO.

I don't think Texas is evil.  I think Texas is more selfish than other schools in it's position.  It has every right to be, and arguably has a responsibility to be.

I'm pissed off that I'm a fan of a school that did not have benevolent overlords, like the also-rans of the other P5 leagues.  Illinois football is subsidized by Ohio State and Michigan.  They could make more money by joining the SEC.  Utah football is subsidized by USC and Oregon.  They could make more money by joining the SEC.  Wake Forest football is subsidized by Clemson and Florida State.  They could make more money by joining the SEC.

These schools continue to choose to subsidize schools of lesser value than themselves.  Texas and Oklahoma decided to stop doing that.  They are the only schools in their position to have made this choice thus far.  Is that evil?  No.  It's capitalism.  It's the way America works.  It just sucks to be one of the handful that met this fate while others of equal or lesser merit are allowed to continue their gravy train because the overlord is cool with it.

[Scholz 12303]

4 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

 I think Texas is more selfish than other schools in it's position...

I'm pissed off that I'm a fan of a school that did not have benevolent overlords, like the also-rans of the other P5 leagues...

Again, calling us selfish and malevolent is discounting us holding it together since 2011.

And again, blame Mizzou, Nebraska, Colorado and A&M.  They're the ones who doomed this conference from being top tier not us.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18934]

4 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Did Texas and OU ever ask the other schools to schedule better games?

I'm not being flippant here, I'm trying to ascertain to what extent gripes were expressed and to what extent they were accommodated or ignored.

Are you fucking serious? Should they have to? Could you imagine the blow back if Texas was now telling the other conference teams who to schedule? They should know better but their coaches and AD's were intent on padding their records and making sure that they were bowl eligible. Perhaps that is the job of the conference commissioner to say, "Hey Baylor, that match up against Incarnate Fucking Word is going to lead off on Sportscenter and they're lining up to see you put 60 on Lamar. 

And this is the problem. You want to get paid like big boy football and act like big boy football. but you don't want to actually play big boy football. 

 

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Each SEC team plays a nobody in November. Doesn't seem to be a problem for their tv partners.

This isn't about playing one nobody. It's about playing nothing but nobodies.  And the SEC has one less conference game and they have more than two marquee programs that carry their own weight. 

 

[Deej 77685]

Texas has only chosen to stop subsidizing your school and the other seven. We will still be subsidizing other schools of lesser value than ours. 

[nineliveslost 2974]

Can Big 12 haz more than 4 ?

 

 

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

1 minute ago, Scholz said:

Again, calling us selfish and malevolent is discounting us holding it together since 2011.

And again, blame Mizzou, Nebraska, Colorado and A&M.  They're the ones who doomed this conference from being top tier not us.

You weren't behaving in a selfish prior to leaving, and I didn't say you were malevolent.

And I have routinely blamed those schools (save Colorado).

And truthfully, this isn't really your fault.  The reason this conference isn't "top tier" is because the media overlords decided to present that narrative and beat it into the minds of the sports watching populace.  When ESPN realized that they could literally neg this conference to death and get you guys into the SEC and create Prestige Worldwide for real, they were off running.  Over the past decade, this exact board has frequently shown all sorts of statistical analysis that Big 12 was NOT a second tier conference in terms of actual football - even with 10 teams.  It WAS a 2nd tier conference in terms of perception, and that was what finally forced OU and UT out.

I would argue that UT and OU could have just not cared about it because you guys were getting Top 5-10 recruiting classes and making shit loads of money, but as long as you were in the Big 12, ESPN was going to do everything in their power to make you hate it and make life harder for you here.

[Jasper_Jester 356]

23 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Definitely.  I'm curious what the Big 12 was supposed to do on that.  The TV Networks put them in this slot, and it's very obvious that a certain TV Network was intentionally trying to make OU and Texas unhappy in their current home.

What does Fox have against OU? That is the network that has the OU vs Nebraska game. The conference was supposed to leverage Fox to give up the game so ESPN could put it on in Prime Time.

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

6 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Are you fucking serious? Should they have to? Could you imagine the blow back if Texas was now telling the other conference teams who to schedule? They should know better but their coaches and AD's were intent on padding their records and making sure that they were bowl eligible. Perhaps that is the job of the conference commissioner to say, "Hey Baylor, that match up against Incarnate Fucking Word is going to lead off on Sportscenter and they're lining up to see you put 60 on Lamar. 

And this is the problem. You want to get paid like big boy football and act like big boy football. but you don't want to actually play big boy football. 

 

This isn't about playing one nobody. It's about playing nothing but nobodies.  And the SEC has one less conference game and they have more than two marquee programs that carry their own weight. 

 

So it's the other schools' fault for not reading your minds?

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

Just now, Jasper_Jester said:

What does Fox have against OU? That is the network that has the OU vs Nebraska game. The conference was supposed to leverage Fox to give up the game so ESPN could put it on in Prime Time.

Fox gets its best ratings in the early games.  They put OU there BECAUSE OU was good and they wanted all the eyeballs.

[Huckleberry 34413]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Over the past decade, this exact board has frequently shown all sorts of statistical analysis that Big 12 was NOT a second tier conference in terms of actual football - even with 10 teams.  It WAS a 2nd tier conference in terms of perception, and that was what finally forced OU and UT out.

Hey look, another spot where competent Big 12 leadership could have helped. Why are internet fan message boards the only place where you can find detailed provable analysis showing that the conference was actually the second best football conference since its inception and frequently the best in individual seasons?

[Rimbo 26873]

3 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Big 12 Network was pre-Bowlsby.

I think everyone agrees Beebe sucked.  But again, I don't think he could have kept Nebraska.  Nebraska had to want to work things out and they didn't.  Which is why I'll always hate them the most.

They really shot themselves in the foot with that move, though. They got all the downsides of being in the B1G without the biggest benefit.

And they did it all for spite. Just couldn't stand to lose to us again...

[Al_4_ISU 12619]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

Hey look, another spot where competent Big 12 leadership could have helped. Why are internet fan message boards the only place where you can find detailed provable analysis showing that the conference was actually the second best football conference since its inception and frequently the best in individual seasons?

Well, when the entity with a borderline monopoly on sports media is actively trying to kill it, it's pretty tough fucking sledding.

Although I agree with your point, and definitely see places where the Big 12 leadership was terrible.

I still don't think it would have changed anything.  

[Scholz 12303]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

You weren't behaving in a selfish prior to leaving, and I didn't say you were malevolent.

I would argue that UT and OU could have just not cared about it because you guys were getting Top 5-10 recruiting classes and making shit loads of money, but as long as you were in the Big 12, ESPN was going to do everything in their power to make you hate it and make life harder for you here.

Right.  Not evil but selfish.  Not malevolent but also not benevolent.  I got it.  I think.

Sorry we're so easily manipulated by the media.  Look, we made a decision that benefits our school, nothing more nothing less.

[Huckleberry 34413]

Just now, Al_4_ISU said:

Well, when the entity with a borderline monopoly on sports media is actively trying to kill it, it's pretty tough fucking sledding.

Although I agree with your point, and definitely see places where the Big 12 leadership was terrible.

I still don't think it would have changed anything.  

Not in the end but it would have improved everyone's lives in the meantime.

ESPN may have a monopoly, but Fox Sports wasn't going to turn down analyses and stories proving that one of their commodities was stronger than perceived. They would have beat that drum as often as necessary.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18934]

1 minute ago, Al_4_ISU said:

So it's the other schools' fault for not reading your minds?

Look man, I don't even know if this was Texas's actual position. I was just responding to your ask:

Quote

Lay out what this hypothetical competent leader could have done to keep Texas and OU in the league.  No psycho-babble about "competency" and "vision".  Concrete, real life examples of moves that could be made.

You wanted a concrete, real life example of what a competent leader could have done. I gave you one. Apparently, the answer was that the real life competent leader was supposed to be told by Texas that the other conference schools needed to stop being huge, gaping, gravy training, record padding, pussies. Is that a better answer for you?