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Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

LTtxfan

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Yeah, undefeated every year no doubt.  

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It's a large Texas forum. Every thread will largely be dominated by Texas posters. This is news? Not only that, it's funny in some form? My view is that the Big 12 will be fine as the 4th of 4 la

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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9 hours ago, Pimphand said:

I'm rooting for Iowa State their last football conference championship was 1912.

Also how the absolute fuck did Gundy go from 2023 CCG to winless in the conference?

I’m still pissed that the Big 12 didn’t recognize regular season champs from 2017-2022.

We won the 2020 round robin by a full game and there’s 0 acknowledgment of that.  Same thing for TCU in ‘22.

21 hours ago, Upgrayedd said:

And I am absolutely amazed 

Would that be our first ever match up?

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Upgrayedd

Upgrayedd 5818

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1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I’m still pissed that the Big 12 didn’t recognize regular season champs from 2017-2022.

We won the 2020 round robin by a full game and there’s 0 acknowledgment of that.  Same thing for TCU in ‘22.

Would that be our first ever match up?

I believe so.  Thought that next year would be the first (and I am going to Ames for that one).

Don’t discount our ability to step on our own dick this Saturday.  Seen this movie way too many times.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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20 minutes ago, Upgrayedd said:

I believe so.  Thought that next year would be the first (and I am going to Ames for that one).

Don’t discount our ability to step on our own dick this Saturday.  Seen this movie way too many times.

Well, we both have rivalry games to wade through and our line indicates KSU would be favored on a neutral field.

Drop me a line next fall if you're looking for recs in Ames on gameday.  I doubt I'll be there (unless it's really early or really late in the season), but I'll give you a solid itinerary.  I'd tell you right now to stay in Ames instead of a Des Moines suburb, and reserve a room the day the schedule comes out.  I'd recommend Days Inn on Duff.  It's not the nicest place, but it's good enough and you can walk to the Tip Top Lounge, Jack Trice, and the downtown bars.  You'd have to Uber to Campustown, but that's it.

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33090

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4 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I’m still pissed that the Big 12 didn’t recognize regular season champs from 2017-2022.

We won the 2020 round robin by a full game and there’s 0 acknowledgment of that.  Same thing for TCU in ‘22.

Would that be our first ever match up?

Nothing stopping ISU from recognizing. Round robin championships are 100% valid.

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'stache

'stache 21860

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Posted (edited)

I have no idea how losing to a better team in a CCG is supposed to be more soul crushing than the multiple bedlam heartbreaks and a few upsets along the way killing our title shots, but ok I guess. I think it’s several years of winning by the skin of our teeth finally catching up to us with some defensive injuries along the way. We’ll be back but it might take a while. The freshman QB Smith looks to be pretty talented, happy to see him take the reins next year. My biggest concern is that Gundy digs in as he sometimes does and refuses to get a new DC. Even with injuries the schemes have been atrocious.

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'stache

'stache 21860

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8 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Gundy's been there for 20 years.  Eventually the game passes everyone by.  He's probably at that point.  He hates the modern recruiting landscape and the state of the game today, and I'm not sure how that doesn't rub off on his team some.

I saw him chattering on his headset way more this past week than I've seen in forever and all of a sudden Gordon breaks big runs like last year and the freshman QB looks pretty good. I don't think the game has passed him by, at least offensively. He's been fine adjusting to NIL, etc., considering our place in the national heirarchy. Again, my concern is that he'll be stubborn as fuck about Bryan Nardo, the DC who he plucked from DIII, to try and prove he made a good choice. He just seems to insist on always making things harder on himself. Let him go and find a new DC, anyone really at this point, because the defense is worse than anything I've ever seen, and that's something considering how bad we've been on defense over the years from time to time. 

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statsman

statsman 5478

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As I understand it, there is a path for 7-4 Baylor to make the B12 CG. They need to beat Kansas, and for UCF, OSU, ASU, UH, TCU, KSU and WVU to win. 
 
If that were to happen, and Baylor were to win the CG, Baylor would not get the 1st round bye. A G5 champ would. Question- could a second G5 champ (AAC champ?) displace the B12 champ?

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'stache

'stache 21860

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If all of that happens and Army wins next week and in the AAC championship game, yes I can see that happening. A 3 loss Big XII champ could definitely fall below a 1 loss AAC champ, a 4 loss Big XII champ for sure would drop below the 1 loss AAC champ Army. Tulane already has 2 losses so I don't think they jump a 3 loss Big XII champ but could jump a 4 loss Big XII champ. 

In looking into that question, I just realized that Army-Navy are conference mates but their game will remain non-conference and will continue to be played the week after the AAC championship and after the CFP makes its decision. Just another crazy quirk of conference realignment. The premise is that Army is a one loss team but they could get a second loss a week after the CFP decision is made. 

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Magus Ossis

Magus Ossis 2840

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24 minutes ago, statsman said:

As I understand it, there is a path for 7-4 Baylor to make the B12 CG. They need to beat Kansas, and for UCF, OSU, ASU, UH, TCU, KSU and WVU to win. 
 
If that were to happen, and Baylor were to win the CG, Baylor would not get the 1st round bye. A G5 champ would. Question- could a second G5 champ (AAC champ?) displace the B12 champ?

As the rules as written, yes

 

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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7 minutes ago, redswingline said:

There was a CCG and ISU lost that game.

Claiming a Conference title despite that outcome is going full aggy

I’m just saying there should have been a regular season champ and CCG champ.  Just like basketball has a regular season champ and a conference tournament champ.

The Big 12 CCG in the 10 team era was no different than a conference tournament in hoops.  Not even a little.  There was no point to it other than TV money and a 13th data point for the playoff committee.

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redswingline

redswingline 1063

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Just now, Al_4_ISU said:

I’m just saying there should have been a regular season champ and CCG champ.  Just like basketball has a regular season champ and a conference tournament champ.

It's nothing like basketball. The entire conference plays in the conference tournament in basketball.

I know you want your participation trophy, but it would have been a very poor idea if the B12 tried to claim two champs, a season champ and CCG champ.

Think of the 2014 season. I think it was tcu and baylor who finished with identical records? but one of them won the in-season game. Whomever that was should have been the champ. For some stupid fucking reason, both were listed as co-champs. It ended up fucking both teams out of an invite. The CFP committee was like "who is your champ" and the B12 was like "we are fucking stupid, we don't know". The B12 amended the rules that very off season.

All that said, go full aggy and award yourself  "in-season-champs" if you want.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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2 minutes ago, redswingline said:

It's nothing like basketball. The entire conference plays in the conference tournament in basketball.

I know you want your participation trophy, but it would have been a very poor idea if the B12 tried to claim two champs, a season champ and CCG champ.

Think of the 2014 season. I think it was tcu and baylor who finished with identical records? but one of them won the in-season game. Whomever that was should have been the champ. For some stupid fucking reason, both were listed as co-champs. It ended up fucking both teams out of an invite. The CFP committee was like "who is your champ" and the B12 was like "we are fucking stupid, we don't know". The B12 amended the rules that very off season.

All that said, go full aggy and award yourself  "in-season-champs" if you want.

Baylor was the champ in 2014.  The Big 12 idiotically waffled because TCU looked like the better team.

It was arbitrary bullshit.

The entire conference played each other.  It was impossible not to have a clear winner.  That’s why round robin exists.

There was nothing “participation trophy” about coming out of that clearly on top and you know it.  From 2011-2016, that was the champ and it made sense.  Then they decided to play a random rematch game.

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redswingline

redswingline 1063

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15 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Baylor was the champ in 2014.  The Big 12 idiotically waffled because TCU looked like the better team.

It was arbitrary bullshit.

The entire conference played each other.  It was impossible not to have a clear winner.  That’s why round robin exists.

There was nothing “participation trophy” about coming out of that clearly on top and you know it.  From 2011-2016, that was the champ and it made sense.  Then they decided to play a random rematch game.

For a long time the B12 suffered from poor leadership overall, lack of vision and no balls.

As far as the round robin goes - I was a big fan of it. Problem is, the sec had that CCG and never wavered from it. They pushed that shit on everyone else and lobbied the fuck out of everyone saying that game mattered more than playing a round robin or playing 9 conference games and enough people bought that bullshit.  It really fucked over the P10 quite a few times, because the P10 was playing a round robin and that gives the conference 5 more guaranteed losses. The P10 was hosed out of an invite least 3-4 times from 2000-2010 or so.

Anyways, my overall point is that everyone not in the sec has been playing on an uneven playing field for a while now. I guess the acc doesn't play 9 conference games either. But the b10 / p10-p12 and B12 have all had 9 conference games for a while and were playing a round robin for a long time. It didn't matter. The CCG and the extra datapoint was viewed as being better. So, the B12 picked it up again and your isu team lost. That or they did it for revenue. TBH having 9 conference games and a CCG seems like conference suicide to me.

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'stache

'stache 21860

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At least the SEC and others at the time played round robin division schedules to earn your way into the CCG. Now the spots can be decided by conference strength of schedule tiebreakers. This new system sucks shit. Just add games to the playoff for revenue and award conference titles based on regular season conference records and tiebreakers. Kiffin is already saying it out loud that many coaches don’t even want to play the CCG for obvious reasons.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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10 hours ago, redswingline said:

For a long time the B12 suffered from poor leadership overall, lack of vision and no balls.

As far as the round robin goes - I was a big fan of it. Problem is, the sec had that CCG and never wavered from it. They pushed that shit on everyone else and lobbied the fuck out of everyone saying that game mattered more than playing a round robin or playing 9 conference games and enough people bought that bullshit.  It really fucked over the P10 quite a few times, because the P10 was playing a round robin and that gives the conference 5 more guaranteed losses. The P10 was hosed out of an invite least 3-4 times from 2000-2010 or so.

Anyways, my overall point is that everyone not in the sec has been playing on an uneven playing field for a while now. I guess the acc doesn't play 9 conference games either. But the b10 / p10-p12 and B12 have all had 9 conference games for a while and were playing a round robin for a long time. It didn't matter. The CCG and the extra datapoint was viewed as being better. So, the B12 picked it up again and your isu team lost. That or they did it for revenue. TBH having 9 conference games and a CCG seems like conference suicide to me.

I think we basically agree here.  I'm not saying ISU should actually claim to be the Big 12 champions for 2020 (thought that post was clearly tongue in cheek).  I'm saying it's ridiculous that the league didn't recognize round robin winners and CCG winners separately, like it does in basketball.  From 2011-2016 there was no CCG because you didn't need one.  Round robin determines a champion.  The league just kept doing stupid shit to try and appease the playoff committee.  Like a cat chasing a laser pointer.  Because the committee just made shit up on the fly, and didn't want to recognize any non-blue blood in the 10 team Big 12, it was an utter fool's errand.  Lack of vision indeed.

FWIW, Big 10 quit playing a round robin when they added Pedo State, which lead to a lot of co-championships for whoever was decent and dodged Ohio State.

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n64ra

n64ra 1089

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I guess if other schools can make up natties, there's no reason we can't claim a conference title we actually won.

See aggy when the joined they SEC with their phantom division championships, conference titles, and national championships.

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redswingline

redswingline 1063

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3 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I think we basically agree here.  I'm not saying ISU should actually claim to be the Big 12 champions for 2020 (thought that post was clearly tongue in cheek).  I'm saying it's ridiculous that the league didn't recognize round robin winners and CCG winners separately, like it does in basketball.  From 2011-2016 there was no CCG because you didn't need one.  Round robin determines a champion.  The league just kept doing stupid shit to try and appease the playoff committee.  Like a cat chasing a laser pointer.  Because the committee just made shit up on the fly, and didn't want to recognize any non-blue blood in the 10 team Big 12, it was an utter fool's errand.  Lack of vision indeed.

FWIW, Big 10 quit playing a round robin when they added Pedo State, which lead to a lot of co-championships for whoever was decent and dodged Ohio State.

That's correct the B10 doesn't play a round robin and hasn't for a while. "Except" was missing in my sentence for the b10. All of the conferences should have and should be playing the same # of conference games. The sec had avoided that shit like the plague, even before they were the undisputed best conference.

I do agree the league kept doing stupid shit - that was lack of leadership plain and simple. To have a round robin + a CCG is fucking stupid. It also didn't help that the B12 hasn't produced a MNC since 2005. If we are going to be honest here, the conferences flagship programs, us and blowu, haven't been able to get it done. That contributed to college football realignment and the reshaping of the B12 just as much as poor conference leadership.

I don't agree with you on the in-season / ccg champ distinction though. Once a league commits to a CCG and even though that sucks and is fucking stupid for a conference with a true round robin format, the winner of that game is the conference champ. A 2-team CCG is nothing like a conference basketball tourney, which requires multiple wins to crown the winner.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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13 minutes ago, redswingline said:

That's correct the B10 doesn't play a round robin and hasn't for a while. "Except" was missing in my sentence for the b10. All of the conferences should have and should be playing the same # of conference games. The sec had avoided that shit like the plague, even before they were the undisputed best conference.

I do agree the league kept doing stupid shit - that was lack of leadership plain and simple. To have a round robin + a CCG is fucking stupid. It also didn't help that the B12 hasn't produced a MNC since 2005. If we are going to be honest here, the conferences flagship programs, us and blowu, haven't been able to get it done. That contributed to college football realignment and the reshaping of the B12 just as much as poor conference leadership.

I don't agree with you on the in-season / ccg champ distinction though. Once a league commits to a CCG and even though that sucks and is fucking stupid for a conference with a true round robin format, the winner of that game is the conference champ. A 2-team CCG is nothing like a conference basketball tourney, which requires multiple wins to crown the winner.

It just really sticks in my craw that winning a conference tourney in hoops is generally discounted as being less of an accomplishment than coming out on top after a season of playing everyone, but in football, they only recognized the team that won a rematch game whether they finished league play on top or not.

From an ISU perspective it feels like the goal posts are shifted to negate whatever you accomplish.

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PvilleStang

PvilleStang 2920

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Posted (edited)

Was always my complaint with Big12 CCG.  The year OU beat Texas in the CCG rematch.  We split 1-1 that season and lost the conference due to that shitty CCG.

Number of times I'm seeing in recent history of a rematch that split the season.  2022, 2021, 2020, 2018.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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Posted (edited)

OU would have been champs that year without the CCG despite losing to you.  They were 8-1, you were 7-2.

2020, 2021, and 2022 were the years that the team who won the round robin lost the CCG.  Us, OK State, TCU.

Edited by Al_4_ISU
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redswingline

redswingline 1063

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1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It just really sticks in my craw that winning a conference tourney in hoops is generally discounted as being less of an accomplishment than coming out on top after a season of playing everyone, but in football, they only recognized the team that won a rematch game whether they finished league play on top or not.

From an ISU perspective it feels like the goal posts are shifted to negate whatever you accomplish.

I understand if you compare it that way. If it helps, think of it like this The B12 plays 18 conference games and when the B12 had 10 teams, everyone played each other twice.  The best of 18 games is a much tougher road to travel than the end of the season tourney. Basketball is also a lot more inclusive than football - a ton of teams get invited to the NCAA tournament and that doesn't even include the NIT, which has a bunch of teams too. Football has never been inclusive in that way. It's a limited invitational that's controlled by a minority.

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Al_4_ISU

Al_4_ISU 12483

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10 minutes ago, redswingline said:

I understand if you compare it that way. If it helps, think of it like this The B12 plays 18 conference games and when the B12 had 10 teams, everyone played each other twice.  The best of 18 games is a much tougher road to travel than the end of the season tourney. Basketball is also a lot more inclusive than football - a ton of teams get invited to the NCAA tournament and that doesn't even include the NIT, which has a bunch of teams too. Football has never been inclusive in that way. It's a limited invitational that's controlled by a minority.

The other side that pisses me off, is that if ISU has the exact same season 3 years earlier, they get the trophy and recognition.  For the exact same accomplishment.

It's just that sense of getting screwed by the shifting winds of change that we've been up against for a minute now.  Life's not fair.

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