Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

[statsman 5693]

Anyone else notice how plentiful and cheap B12 CG tix are?

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

14 minutes ago, statsman said:

Anyone else notice how plentiful and cheap B12 CG tix are?

It’s the holiday season. Not everyone has the money to drive from Fort Worth to Arlington. Check your privilege. 

[LTtxfan 50005]

18 minutes ago, statsman said:

Anyone else notice how plentiful and cheap B12 CG tix are?

Current glimpse of "Left Behind Big 12" future

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1314]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Anyone else notice how plentiful and cheap B12 CG tix are?

TCU can't sell out their home stadium.

[redswingline 1124]

1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Current glimpse of "Left Behind Big 12" future

with us and choklahoma leaving, I wonder which two schools have the biggest media markets and fan bases

[NoRagrets 1141]

3 minutes ago, redswingline said:

with us and choklahoma leaving, I wonder which two schools have the biggest media markets and fan bases

Lubbock!

Should rename it the Flyover12

[redswingline 1124]

7 minutes ago, NoRagrets said:

Lubbock!

Should rename it the Flyover12

did you go to school at tech?

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

Who in the Big 12 sells out when Texas or OU aren’t visiting? Oklahoma State?

 

[40acredropout 2911]

31 minutes ago, redswingline said:

with us and choklahoma leaving, I wonder which two schools have the biggest media markets and fan bases

There was a study put out this year that estimates fan base size.  I'm not familiar enough with methodology to vouch for it but it was circulated pretty widely so assuming it's at least directionally accurate https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MiUOwx8X3H2bSkUOz8a1YhceyJWLLCoJ/view

Big 12 rankings:

• Texas - 7.82M
• OU - 3.22M
• WVU - 1.84M
• TTU - 1.65M
• OSU - 1.42M
• BYU - 1.03M
• KSU - .91M
• KU - .90M
• ISU - .81M
• TCU - .80M
• UCF - .78M
• BAY - .57M
• HOU - .47M
• CIN - .39M

Edited December 2, 2022 by 40acredropout

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1314]

2 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Who in the Big 12 sells out when Texas or OU aren’t visiting? Oklahoma State?

 

Oklahoma State and Kansas State. Maybe West Virginia? No idea on the newcomers.

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

3 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Oklahoma State and Kansas State. Maybe West Virginia? No idea on the newcomers.

KSU also does a pretty good job, true. WVU, not so much. 

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1314]

5 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

KSU also does a pretty good job, true. WVU, not so much. 

Did Tech sell out when Leach was coaching them? A lot of these schools would do a whole lot better with a little success. The most frustrating thing about TCU is they are undefeated and still don't seem to care at all.

[redswingline 1124]

5 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

WVU, not so much. 

They brought back neal brown. Tells me they didn't have the money to pay the buyout, so they are just going with it for another year

[redswingline 1124]

1 minute ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

 thing about TCU is they are undefeated and still don't seem to care at all.

[Trojan Man 429]

As a third party with no dog in this fight it seems the biggest hurdles keeping Texas and Oklahoma in the Big 12 are OU not having the money for a buyout/not wanting to pay a buyout, the SEC insisting UT and OU join simultaneously and Fox not wanting to lose those two properties before their contract expires.  The Fox problem seems like the biggest to overcome for an early Big 12 exit because they seem less willing to negotiate an early departure than the schools or the conference.  Arguing about other angles comes off as divorce shitflinging from both sides.

6 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Oklahoma State and Kansas State. Maybe West Virginia? No idea on the newcomers.

From TV angles BYU games seem like they're always sold out.  UCF games look close enough to capacity on TV that joining a better conference should bump them up to selling out most games.

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

1 minute ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Did Tech sell out when Leach was coaching them? A lot of these schools would do a whole lot better with a little success. The most frustrating thing about TCU is they are undefeated and still don't seem to care at all.

I haven’t done extensive research, but I remember a lot of empty seats even when Leach was there. I’m open to being proven wrong, though. 
 

Living in Fort Worth, I can tell you that TCU does care… about wearing purple. Not so much about attending the games, but a lot of flags have appeared since September. Going anywhere around here in burnt orange is getting fucking intolerable. 

[oSuJeff97 3439]

23 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Oklahoma State and Kansas State. Maybe West Virginia? No idea on the newcomers.

Yeah all of our games this year were sold out except West Virginia, when it was like 38 degrees and raining sideways.

And I don't know if they sell out most games but Iowa State pretty much packs their stadium all the time, even before they got competitive.

Edited December 2, 2022 by oSuJeff97

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

5 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

Yeah all of our games this year were sold out except West Virginia, when it was like 38 degrees and raining sideways.

Oklahoma State is the one I’ll miss. I think the shared hatred of OU played into it. 
 

i felt kinda bad walking out of that tomb of a stadium trying not to laugh or even smile after some of the Cowboys’ fold jobs, but 2015 and Texas’ folds of their own have evened that up a little. 
 

I remember a lot of people around us talking shit at halftime of the 2005 game. Then a bunch of those people started leaving after the VY pump fake. Good times. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Doc Daneeka

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

9 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

Yeah all of our games this year were sold out except West Virginia, when it was like 38 degrees and raining sideways.

And I don't know if they sell out most games but Iowa State pretty much packs their stadium all the time, even before they got competitive.

We were like 1500-800 tickets short of a sell out most of the year and are generally Top 35 nationally in attendance.  Our raw attendance has been 3rd in the league for awhile.

In our 10 largest crowds of all time, Texas makes 1 appearance.  Oklahoma makes 0.  OK State actually has 3 of them.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Al_4_ISU

[oSuJeff97 3439]

2 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Oklahoma State is the one I’ll miss. I think the shared hatred of OU played into it. 
 

i felt kinda bad walking out of that tomb of a stadium trying not to laugh or even smile after some of the Cowboys’ fold jobs, but 2015 and Texas’ folds of their own have evened that up a little. 
 

I remember a lot of people around us talking shit at halftime of the 2005 game. Then a bunch of those people started leaving after the VY pump fake. Good times. 

Those people were obviously idiots.

That game was a massive mismatch and it was only a matter of time before Texas took it over. That was obviously a great Texas team and it was Gundy's first year and his worst team by far... the only team he's had so far that ended up with a losing record. Texas was just bored for that first half and then VY was like, "OK enough of this shit" and away you went.

 

[statsman 5693]

Attendance, alone, is a poor measure of program fanbase. Anyone can fill a stadium if they lower prices enough. Attendance and ticket price, together, is a better measure of demand. 

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

It seemed like the question being posed was if fans of the remaining/future Big 12 schools cared about games that weren't Texas or OU, and it seems like outside of schools like Baylor and TCU the answer is yes.

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

Just now, oSuJeff97 said:

Those people were obviously idiots.

That game was a massive mismatch and it was only a matter of time before Texas took it over. That was obviously a great Texas team and it was Gundy's first year and his worst team by far... the only team he's had so far that ended up with a losing record. Texas was just bored for that first half and then VY was like, "OK enough of this shit" and away you went.

 

Yeah, every freaking bounce when OSU’s way in the first half of that game. 
 

I don’t mean to harp on that aspect, though. Tailgates there were welcoming and fun. The pre-game talk didn’t have a felonious edge to it like Lubbock (or Columbus). The bars were fun and staff there and at restaurants were friendly even though we were in burnt orange. The stadium got loud for its size (I’ll mostly skip over the bullshit yellow bars on the scoreboard during field goal attempts) and though more room at the edge of the field would be nice, it was a fun environment. And didn’t smell like Manhattan. 

[Pato del Muerto 53504]

54 minutes ago, 40acredropout said:

There was a study put out this year that estimates fan base size.  I'm not familiar enough with methodology to vouch for it but it was circulated pretty widely so assuming it's at least directionally accurate https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MiUOwx8X3H2bSkUOz8a1YhceyJWLLCoJ/view

Big 12 rankings:

• Texas - 7.82M
• OU - 3.22M
• WVU - 1.84M
• TTU - 1.65M
• OSU - 1.42M
• BYU - 1.03M
• KSU - .91M
• KU - .90M
• ISU - .81M
• TCU - .80M
• UCF - .78M
• BAY - .57M
• HOU - .47M
• CIN - .39M

So tx/ou 11.0ish

everyone else 11.5ish

and osu through cin 8.1 barely beats Texas. 

[CowtownHorn 5126]

20 hours ago, closetojumping said:

I always enjoy reading your posts due to your complete delusion about the way you handle the board versus the way the rest of us go about things. It's obvious that you really do see yourself as the level-headed victim and we're the rich, drunk and abusive stepdad who beats the shit out of you constantly while you just wish you could have a nice meal in peace every now and then. 

What's changed on this board since the departure was announced is your evolution into a sullen bitch. 

We all feel bad for you in the most patronizing and condescending way possible. It must suck to be an ISU fan and I'm glad it isn't my lot in life. While I hope Texas never stoops to playing ISU in anything ever again, I sure hope you guys are able to get back to .500 and stay there against the likes of UCF, Northern Iowa and UH. You guys deserve some sad form of mediocre happiness every now and then.

['stache 22143]

Why are there two threads on the same shit? You'll leave when Fox says you can leave. For the record, OU still holds every play and gets away with it, and they still suck. Hope they stick with Brent V forever since they'll have to max out there credit cards to pay the exit fee whenever it comes due.

[closetojumping 65427]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Why are there two threads on the same shit? You'll leave when Fox says you can leave. For the record, OU still holds every play and gets away with it, and they still suck. Hope they stick with Brent V forever since they'll have to max out there credit cards to pay the exit fee whenever it comes due.

Oh look, it's the Okie State poster twin of @Al_4_ISU!

"For the record", you sound bitter about the most recent steaming pile of shit that your coach laid at your feet against OU, so of course you'd be arguing that nothing has changed for them. 

[closetohumping 17817]

3 hours ago, 'stache said:

Why are there two threads on the same shit? You'll leave when Fox says you can leave. For the record, OU still holds every play and gets away with it, and they still suck. Hope they stick with Brent V forever since they'll have to max out there credit cards to pay the exit fee whenever it comes due.

Hey look it’s an Oklahoma st fan bitching about threads on. A Texas board.  Fucking rich

['stache 22143]

3 hours ago, closetojumping said:

Oh look, it's the Okie State poster twin of @Al_4_ISU!

"For the record", you sound bitter about the most recent steaming pile of shit that your coach laid at your feet against OU, so of course you'd be arguing that nothing has changed for them. 

 

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Hey look it’s an Oklahoma st fan bitching about threads on. A Texas board.  Fucking rich

No substantive response, just love the synergy of handles. 

[sdm 929]

20 minutes ago, 'stache said:

 

No substantive response, just love the synergy of handles. 

Breaking up is hard to do.

['stache 22143]

22 minutes ago, sdm said:

Breaking up is hard to do.

[The Tres Leches 58]

Maybe the Big 12 should have invited Tulane.  They also beat KState in Manhattan.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by The Tres Leches

[redswingline 1124]

Due to the media market size, it makes sense for the Big 12 to bring in UCF.

UH? Politicians must have pushed that one through.

 

[Trojan Man 429]

20 hours ago, redswingline said:

Due to the media market size, it makes sense for the Big 12 to bring in UCF.

UH? Politicians must have pushed that one through.

 

UCF seems like they could be a sleeping giant.  They have a huge enrollment, they're in a great recruiting area, Florida State might finally be improving but the big Florida schools have all been sucking shit through a straw for a long time.  UCF is also about to earn more from their conference payout than the ACC schools.  5 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if UCF is earning top 4 playoff seeds while Florida and Florida State and Miami are all stuck in 7-5 purgatory.

[Vertigo 20496]

20 hours ago, redswingline said:

Due to the media market size, it makes sense for the Big 12 to bring in UCF.

UH? Politicians must have pushed that one through.

 

Houston to the B12 was a really reactionary and stupid move. BYU I get, UCF I get, Cincinnati I kind of get, but UH has zero redeeming qualities other than it's location and it is still the worst TV draw in the conference. 

[redswingline 1124]

23 minutes ago, Trojan Man said:

 5 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if UCF is earning top 4 playoff seeds while Florida and Florida State and Miami are all stuck in 7-5 purgatory.

 

I don't see how ucf comes in and dominates the conference in the future, but with blowu leaving I suppose the conference is up for grabs.

Of course, with how shitty blowu looked this year they could stay in the Big 12 and it would still be up for grabs

 

['stache 22143]

2 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Houston to the B12 was a really reactionary and stupid move. BYU I get, UCF I get, Cincinnati I kind of get, but UH has zero redeeming qualities other than it's location and it is still the worst TV draw in the conference. 

It was all reactionary, and literally the worst time. The confrence should have been proactive for years prior, but wasn't. When it finally becomes proactive, a year later the PAC falls apart and provides better options. Utah would be monumentally better add than BYU. CU or Zona way more valuable than UH. Cincy I think would still be a decent add. Not sure about UCF, with westward options available, might not care to go that far east, but WVU is still in the mix, so maybe it was an add either way. 

[redswingline 1124]

6 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Houston.. it is still the worst TV draw in the conference. 

I don't get it either with Houston and Cincinnati.

On another note, I understand why coaches move up. More money, more prestige. But Fickell bailing on his program just before a conference move has to be the biggest bitch move a coach can make. I assume he didn't want his resume getting tarnished when Cincinnati takes regular beatings in the Big 12.

Edited December 7, 2022 by redswingline

[redswingline 1124]

19 minutes ago, 'stache said:

 The confrence should have been proactive for years prior, but wasn't. When it finally becomes proactive, a year later the PAC falls apart and provides better options. Utah would be monumentally better add than BYU. CU or Zona way more valuable than UH. Cincy I think would still be a decent add. Not sure about UCF, with westward options available, might not care to go that far east, but WVU is still in the mix, so maybe it was an add either way. 

I completely agree the Big 12 leadership has been reactionary the past decade and missed out on some opportunities.

If realignment was based on competitiveness (it isn't), Utah and Oregon would have been great additions to the Big 12.
Supposedly Oregon and Utah wouldn't have added shit in marketshare or dollars, so they were not invited.

I think it was a mistake not adding or trying to add Oregon. They will always have money to fund their program and while the upfront TV dollars might not be there, I think that their addition would add value over time.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by redswingline

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

12 minutes ago, 'stache said:

It was all reactionary, and literally the worst time. The confrence should have been proactive for years prior, but wasn't. When it finally becomes proactive, a year later the PAC falls apart and provides better options. Utah would be monumentally better add than BYU. CU or Zona way more valuable than UH. Cincy I think would still be a decent add. Not sure about UCF, with westward options available, might not care to go that far east, but WVU is still in the mix, so maybe it was an add either way. 

And if the Big 12 sits and does nothing, they're screwed.

We couldn't add teams before because that would dilute payment and push UT and OU out the door, which didn't matter in the end anyways.  We couldn't NOT add those schools at that time because we had no other choice.  We didn't know USC and UCLA would leave for the Big 10, and it's pretty clear that some of those Pac 12 schools would rather go down with the ship than join up with us even as things are.

What would have been best was for the Big 12 to have added BYU and Cincy or UCF back in 2016. 

But that's 100% through the lens hindsight.  As much as people here say the Remaining 8 were always trying to fuck UT over, the administrations very much wanted Texas and Oklahoma to be happy in the 10 team Big 12, and their previous decisions were often made to what they believed was that end.  The Big 12's position has changed from being dead last to being 3rd in conference pecking order, and that's given the new leadership the ability to be more proactive.

[redswingline 1124]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

 The Big 12's position has changed from being dead last to being 3rd in conference pecking order

When was the Big 12 ever dead last?

[statsman 5693]

Reality-

In 1920, Oklahoma had eight congressional seats. Kansas had eight. Iowa had eleven. Texas had 18. OK, KS and IA had 50% larger talent pool than Texas. 
 
In 2020, Oklahoma has five. Kansas and Iowa have four. Texas has 36. Texas has almost three times as much talent as the prior noted states. 
 
That is demographic reality. The state of Texas is where the recruits are. Houston is in because the other Big XII schools want games in Texas (especially Houston). 

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

35 minutes ago, redswingline said:

When was the Big 12 ever dead last?

Financially, never.

But after the other schools left in 2010-11, there was a consistent media narrative that the Big 12 was the least stable, least desirable, and generally worst P5 league.  At this point it's really hard to make a straight faced argument that the Big 12 is behind the Pac 12 and ACC, even with the departures.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Al_4_ISU

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

Houston is the new school I'm least interested in, and I think the other 3 were kind of no brainers given your options.

The thing about Houston is who was a better #4 that was realistically available?  Boise?  Memphis?  SMU?  Colorado State?  USF?  I don't want Houston, but I'd take them over all of those schools.

[BabaYaga 15625]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:52 AM, Doc Daneeka said:

I haven’t done extensive research, but I remember a lot of empty seats even when Leach was there. I’m open to being proven wrong, though. 

If I remember correctly, they sell lots of tickets, but not everyone makes it into the game.  The Texas/atm games were always full.  They hate the ags for the same reason they  ags say they hate Texas fans.

Nobody talks more shit about schools looking down on them while at the same time looking down at everyone else.  This fired up the Tech fanbase like no other when they were beating the ags season after season

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

1 minute ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Financially, never.

But after the other schools left in 2010-11, there was a consistent media narrative that the Big 12 was the least stable, least desirable, and generally worst P5 league.

Then they realized that they were talking about one has-been, one flash in the pan, and two never weres. 

[oSuJeff97 3439]

9 minutes ago, statsman said:

Reality-

In 1920, Oklahoma had eight congressional seats. Kansas had eight. Iowa had eleven. Texas had 18. OK, KS and IA had 50% larger talent pool than Texas. 
 
In 2020, Oklahoma has five. Kansas and Iowa have four. Texas has 36. Texas has almost three times as much talent as the prior noted states. 
 
That is demographic reality. The state of Texas is where the recruits are. Houston is in because the other Big XII schools want games in Texas (especially Houston). 

This right here.

Plus carriage fees in Houston, of course.

 

[Doc Daneeka 6793]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

If I remember correctly, they sell lots of tickets, but not everyone makes it into the game.  The Texas/atm games were always full.  They hate the ags for the same reason they  ags say they hate Texas fans.

Nobody talks more shit about schools looking down on them while at the same time looking down at everyone else.  This fired up the Tech fanbase like no other when they were beating the ags season after season

I don’t doubt they sell tickets, but I doubt they show up outside of select games. I suspect “sold tickets” shows up in a lot of the attendance claims, Texas included of course. 
 

One of the very few downsides of A&M fleeing the conference is that Tech would likely have a winning record against them by now. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Doc Daneeka

[nnm 37906]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:46 AM, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Did Tech sell out when Leach was coaching them? A lot of these schools would do a whole lot better with a little success. The most frustrating thing about TCU is they are undefeated and still don't seem to care at all.

This just isn’t true. 

 

[statsman 5693]

Dude. Do the first chart without the Conference championship games. Then do the second chart on actual attendance, and not tix sold.