Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

[DFW Horn 6118]

8 hours ago, Trojan Man said:

...It's also possible he's the next coming of Will Muschamp, which means OU would have to nail the next hire because chaining together multiple bad hires is how you get lost in the wilderness.  Being forced into another coaching change in their last Big 12 year or their first SEC year will make transitioning conferences that much harder for them.

Now where can we find an example of this? 

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

10 hours ago, statsman said:

Texas is noteworthy for how long it will stay at its floor level. The administration just will just let it go on for years, waiting for the program to pull out, before getting serious and intervening. 
OU is noteworthy for how short a period it will tolerate being at its floor level.

I told an OU friend of mine this during FUPM’s dying days, and he thought I was crazy. He just couldn’t see it. 

[statsman 5422]

Yeah. I do think that the new model of college football is more program systems driven (organizational structure like NFL) and less coach-driven. Texas is taking major steps in that direction (following model created by Saban and imitated by Smart). We’ll see about OU. I suspect Venables may be too much of a hardass for today’s environment, where players don’t have to put up with that shit

[statsman 5422]

You’re either the program players want to go to or the program they want to get away from. There’s very little middle ground. 

[DFW Horn 6118]

32 minutes ago, statsman said:

Yeah. I do think that the new model of college football is more program systems driven (organizational structure like NFL) and less coach-driven. Texas is taking major steps in that direction...

We'd better hope so, anyway.

[oSuJeff97 3435]

20 hours ago, Saint Austin said:

You people are dreaming. As much as I'd love for OU to become a Nebraska-like has-been, they're too close in proximity to the North Texas recruiting hotbeds to become irrelevant for long. Additionally, when Nebraska left for the Big Ten, they abandoned that Texas recruiting pipeline. OU, on the other hand, will not only be able to continue to recruit Texas, but other SEC states more easily now.

100% this.

Plus the entire OU administration is committed to doing whatever it takes to win at a high level. They’ll be fine once they realize that Venables sucks. If he fires out another 6-7 win season this year he’ll be gone and they’ll break the bank to bring Heupel in.

 

[statsman 5422]

Heupel knows what OU is about. When Stoops had an opportunity to upgrade to Riley, at OC, Heupel was out the door. I don’t see the fundamentals at OU, in terms of program potential, as being better than Tennessee. They have more success because they are more cutthroat. 
 
A successful coach at Tennessee leaves for a program with superior program foundation (recruiting, competitive landscape) or the NFL. 
 

So, he played for OU. So did Darrell Royal, and that wasn’t enough to draw him back. And Royal actually was from Oklahoma. 

[billfromlaketravis 11359]

Yep, if Venables is Blake 2.0, I believe he is, our joy will be very short lived. Enjoy it while you can!

[statsman 5422]

Gary Gibbs 2.0. 

[oSuJeff97 3435]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Heupel knows what OU is about. When Stoops had an opportunity to upgrade to Riley, at OC, Heupel was out the door. I don’t see the fundamentals at OU, in terms of program potential, as being better than Tennessee. They have more success because they are more cutthroat. 
 
A successful coach at Tennessee leaves for a program with superior program foundation (recruiting, competitive landscape) or the NFL. 
 

So, he played for OU. So did Darrell Royal, and that wasn’t enough to draw him back. And Royal actually was from Oklahoma. 

I’ve got almost 100 years of history that says the fundamentals at OU are better than Tennessee.

As much as I hate to say it, OU is a top 5 all-time CFB program. Tennessee has a marginally bigger stadium than OU.  What else do they have on them now that OU is going to the SEC? OU is a better program than Tennessee in every conceivable way.

 

[billfromlaketravis 11359]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Heupel knows what OU is about. When Stoops had an opportunity to upgrade to Riley, at OC, Heupel was out the door. I don’t see the fundamentals at OU, in terms of program potential, as being better than Tennessee. They have more success because they are more cutthroat. 
 
A successful coach at Tennessee leaves for a program with superior program foundation (recruiting, competitive landscape) or the NFL. 
 

So, he played for OU. So did Darrell Royal, and that wasn’t enough to draw him back. And Royal actually was from Oklahoma. 

Heupel would take the OU job, and he'd probably kick ass there. I hope we beat their ass again this year, but Venables shows enough to string out OU's decision. 

[Magus Ossis 2783]

OU will not vanish from the CFB landscape. They will however, as all other schools including Texas, have to survive in CFB 3.0. The SEC is not going to allow any one school an easy path to annual or near annual conference championships. Barring a fall of some of its powers, there won’t even be terribly easy paths for traditional powers even to play annually in the CCG. OU brings reputation and institutional commitment, but memory can be short, and many schools want to win. Going forward, getting Jimmys and Joes is going to depend heavily on a well-managed and funded NIL and portal operation. A Wilkinson-style desk full of cash helped launch some programs, but neither OU nor aggy nor even Bama can coast forever on that part of their past. OU may turn up a billionaire angel to keep them competitive— who knows. The day before our first B12 meeting against Nebraska, few would have predicted that they’d be in a ditch and the LA schools joining them in the B10 25 years hence. 

TLDR: OU has an enormous beta, both next season and long term. They are not a giant or terribly wealthy school.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

1 hour ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I’ve got almost 100 years of history that says the fundamentals at OU are better than Tennessee.

As much as I hate to say it, OU is a top 5 all-time CFB program. Tennessee has a marginally bigger stadium than OU.  What else do they have on them now that OU is going to the SEC? OU is a better program than Tennessee in every conceivable way.

 

Boomer Sooner is worse than Rocky Top. Tennessee’s end zone is better. Tennessee would win a naval battle. Being a Volunteer is better than being a cheater. 

Maybe OU squeaks into the top five over someone like Ohio State, maybe not, but, yeah, they’re all over Tennessee. 

[statsman 5422]

3 hours ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I’ve got almost 100 years of history that says the fundamentals at OU are better than Tennessee.

As much as I hate to say it, OU is a top 5 all-time CFB program. Tennessee has a marginally bigger stadium than OU.  What else do they have on them now that OU is going to the SEC? OU is a better program than Tennessee in every conceivable way.

 

Program fundamentals. OU built its program by being one of two powerhouses in the Big 8, or as some knew it- the “Big 2 and Little 6”. Its main rival was UT, and it was greatly assisted in that its main rival had this hang up about following the rules, even to its competitive detriment. OU has no such qualms. It always used the RRS as a foundation for its Texas recruiting, a necessary facet of its program because the state of Oklahoma just doesn’t produce enough FBS players. The current B12 iteration helps even more- OU gets 2 or 3 games in Texas every year. 
 
Now, OU is joining a league where a dozen teams are very serious about football. Everybody, including UT, is paying players. It will get 1 or 2 games in state every year (unless it adds more in non conference). Contrast with OSU, which will have two games in Texas, every year. Will Texas recruits consider OU more of a “stay home” option, like UT and TAMU? Or will they consider it a “go away” option like Arkansas and LSU?

Sure, OU can now recruit Florida, Georgia and Louisiana. Good luck  

This is why I sayOU’s program fundamentals aren’t appreciably better than Tennessee’s. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by statsman

[Nivek 16854]

1 hour ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Boomer Sooner is worse than Rocky Top. Tennessee’s end zone is better. Tennessee would win a naval battle. Being a Volunteer is better than being a cheater. 

Maybe OU squeaks into the top five over someone like Ohio State, maybe not, but, yeah, they’re all over Tennessee. 

Rocky Top is a great song.   A little bit of an ode to moonshine.  

[camel at sea 589]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:03 PM, Saint Austin said:

You people are dreaming. As much as I'd love for OU to become a Nebraska-like has-been, they're too close in proximity to the North Texas recruiting hotbeds to become irrelevant for long. Additionally, when Nebraska left for the Big Ten, they abandoned that Texas recruiting pipeline. OU, on the other hand, will not only be able to continue to recruit Texas, but other SEC states more easily now.

Yeah.  The big advantage for OU that people sleep on is the lack of regional recruiting competition within a 300 mile radius of campus.  If you're at Tennessee, you've got a lot of resources, and surrounding talent, but you've also got a lot of serious recruiting competition all around you.  UT and aggy are both over 300+ miles from Norman and those are the two closest recruiting peer schools that OU faces.  The SEC doesn't hurt that built-in advantage and probably helps OU with national recruits.

[oSuJeff97 3435]

4 hours ago, statsman said:

Program fundamentals. OU built its program by being one of two powerhouses in the Big 8, or as some knew it- the “Big 2 and Little 6”. Its main rival was UT, and it was greatly assisted in that its main rival had this hang up about following the rules, even to its competitive detriment. OU has no such qualms. It always used the RRS as a foundation for its Texas recruiting, a necessary facet of its program because the state of Oklahoma just doesn’t produce enough FBS players. The current B12 iteration helps even more- OU gets 2 or 3 games in Texas every year. 
 
Now, OU is joining a league where a dozen teams are very serious about football. Everybody, including UT, is paying players. It will get 1 or 2 games in state every year (unless it adds more in non conference). Contrast with OSU, which will have two games in Texas, every year. Will Texas recruits consider OU more of a “stay home” option, like UT and TAMU? Or will they consider it a “go away” option like Arkansas and LSU?

Sure, OU can now recruit Florida, Georgia and Louisiana. Good luck  

This is why I sayOU’s program fundamentals aren’t appreciably better than Tennessee’s. 

I think you way overvalue "games in Texas" for big-time recruits in the state. It's not 1986. Big-time recruits will go to programs that compete for championships and can afford to fork out NIL cash regardless of location.

My money is that OU will do just fine in that department and certainly way better than a place like Tennessee, which barely could hold their head above water for like 20 years before Heupel came to town.

Now excuse me while I go vomit for defending fucking OUsux.

Edited January 29, 2023 by oSuJeff97

[Nivek 16854]

I kind of wondered about that as well @oSuJeff97 but the fall of Nebraska has me wondering if there isn’t some value to it.

[RoyalBevo21 719]

19 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I think you way overvalue "games in Texas" for big-time recruits in the state. It's not 1986. Big-time recruits will go to programs that compete for championships and can afford to fork out NIL cash regardless of location.

My money is that OU will do just fine in that department and certainly way better than a place like Tennessee, which barely could hold their head above water for like 20 years before Heupel came to town.

Now excuse me while I go vomit for defending fucking OUsux.

And you way undervalue it. Folks down here are very prideful if you haven't noticed. Playing in front of family, friends, and coaches is very important. Yes, the top guys are usually gonna follow the money/success.

[oSuJeff97 3435]

1 hour ago, RoyalBevo21 said:

And you way undervalue it. Folks down here are very prideful if you haven't noticed. Playing in front of family, friends, and coaches is very important. Yes, the top guys are usually gonna follow the money/success.

Oh please.

Again, this isn’t 1986.  TONS of top HS kids from Texas go out of state to programs all over the country every single year.

And it’s not as if OU is in freaking South Dakota. It’s a 3-hour drive to the Metroplex. Plenty of kids in Texas are literally closer to OU in distance than they are to Texas or Texas A&M.

And anyway, they’ll play Texas every year and A&M maybe also, and they can schedule non-conference games in Texas.

This is just wishful thinking on some people’s part.

Hell I HOPE OU falls flat on their stupid fucking faces in the SEC. I just don’t see it.

Edited January 29, 2023 by oSuJeff97

[closetohumping 17399]

I don’t think ou will do as well in the sec as it did in the big 12.  Fair to say?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

I don’t think ou will do as well in the sec as it did in the big 12.  Fair to say?

What indication(s) do you have that either Texas or Oklahoma will do better in the SEC?

 

[closetohumping 17399]

Just now, slorch said:

What indication(s) do you have that either Texas or Oklahoma will do better in the SEC?

 

None.  I do think it takes away aggys only recruiting advantage.  We’re moving into a conference where 6 or 7 schools can come close to matching our history, pedigree, commitment and resources.  

[Bevo14 8274]

13 minutes ago, slorch said:

What indication(s) do you have that either Texas or Oklahoma will do better in the SEC?

 

dunno but outside of the top few teams it's an easier conference and you get a bunch of credit for beating shitty teams there, so...

[GreenspointTexas 9564]

At least our non-con will move to 3 G5 programs year in and year out soon, so…. 3 auto wins a year will be nice

[Nivek 16854]

No b12 refs will help.

[thunderlounge 7755]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

No b12 refs will help.

Heh. Ol Scott’s changing jobs just to fuck us some more. 

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

Sure OU *could* turn into Nebraska.  Texas *could* turn into Cal as well.  Neither is happening.  And of course OU isn’t stacking conference championships in the SEC like they did in the 12.  It will be entertaining but I agree the middle and bottom of the SEC is not better than the middle and bottom of the 12.  Just hilarious to think OU or Texas struggle to get wins.  To win against the top 2 in the conference?  Sure I’ll give you that…it will be much harder to beat Georgia and Bama

[NoRagrets 1125]

The key is to make the expanded playoff pool every year and best some rivals along  the way. 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

8 minutes ago, NoRagrets said:

The key is to make the expanded playoff pool every year and best some rivals along  the way. 

The real championship is the enemies we vanquish along the way. 

[RoyalBevo21 719]

There's a question that's already been answered but people seem to forget. 

Is Alabama great because they're Alabama, or because Nick Saban is their coach? 

The Crimson Tide was 4-9 as recent as 2003.

To think Texas and Oklahoma are relinquished to eternal bridesmaids to the rednecks in Tuscaloosa and Athens is laughable. Darrell Royal was undefeated vs Bear Bryant. 

As soon as this university decides to stop stepping on their own dick and go all in on football it could dominate college football and especially the SEC.

Edited January 29, 2023 by RoyalBevo21

[PilotsError 2281]

Just hilarious to think OU or Texas struggle to get wins.

 

Texas struggles to get wins now.  In the Big 12.  

 

[Armybrat 40732]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:59 AM, statsman said:

So, he played for OU. So did Darrell Royal, and that wasn’t enough to draw him back. And Royal actually was from Oklahoma. 

Technically. 
DKR was born on what had been Texas soil (Greer County) just a few years after it was stolen by the Sooners via a misguided Supreme Court decision.

[Nivek 16854]

1 hour ago, PilotsError said:

 

 

 

Texas struggles to get wins now.  In the Big 12.  

 

b12 refs guaranteed the loss vs Alabama.

[Kennythetiger 9334]

2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

b12 refs guaranteed the loss vs Alabama.

How about the other four?  

[statsman 5422]

Just now, Kennythetiger said:

How about the other four?  

Tell me you didn’t watch the fucking games without saying you didn’t watch the fucking games. 

[Smax 3800]

b12 refs guaranteed the loss vs Alabama.

This is so blown out of proportion, every team gets bad calls, you all are just hyper focused on everything going against us. The refs havent kept us basically irrelevant for over a decade

[Cairn Horn88 8167]

1 hour ago, RoyalBevo21 said:

because Nick Saban is their coach? 

This.

[cochamps 1876]

10 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

How about the other four?  

Check the box score for the okie state game, paying special attention to the penalties.

[cochamps 1876]

9 minutes ago, Smax said:

14 minutes ago, Nivek said:

b12 refs guaranteed the loss vs Alabama.

This is so blown out of proportion, every team gets bad calls, you all are just hyper focused on everything going against us. The refs havent kept us basically irrelevant for over a decade

Hell, we were getting cheated in the Baylor game (by the same crew that called the osu game) until those fuckers saw the handwriting on the wall and gave up.

[SquishMitten 10400]

6 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

At least our non-con will move to 3 G5 programs year in and year out soon, so…. 3 auto wins a year will be nice

I kinda hope not. That isn’t a requirement, it’s just an option. Maybe my opinion will change when using one of those spots for a big OOC game costs us a shot, but for now I’d prefer as many good games as possible. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

23 minutes ago, Smax said:

27 minutes ago, Nivek said:

b12 refs guaranteed the loss vs Alabama.

This is so blown out of proportion, every team gets bad calls, you all are just hyper focused on everything going against us. The refs havent kept us basically irrelevant for over a decade

What would be “in proportion?”

[Smax 3800]

33 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

What would be “in proportion?”

 

 

oh

oh my

now I'm convinced..... once again holding happens on every play, calls are missed on nearly every play, go to any school of your choosing forum like this and they can conjure up the same screenshots and same argument about how the refs are out to get them.

[Nivek 16854]

This is so blown out of proportion, every team gets bad calls, you all are just hyper focused on everything going against us. The refs havent kept us basically irrelevant for over a decade

Standard lazy false equivalency. Both of their long TDs were from holds at the LOS.

19 penalties to 1 yard. In 2 games. Bad spots which make one team need 11.5 yards for a first and the other need about 8.5 yards, is not an accident.

It has been posted with pictures and video ad nauseam.

Think about it this way. One team is hawkishly scrutinized for infractions and called for them about 90% of the time. The other team is not scrutinized and is called for them 10% of the time. Does this impact the outcome?

Or does it happen to every coach for an official to run into him and then flag him? Maybe it is very normal and I just have no idea. I for some reason cannot recall Stoops or Patterson or Leach or Snyder, or Steele, or Dykes, or Brown, or Aranda, or Briles, or Gundy, or Solich, or Callahan, or Campbell, or Chizek, or Miles, or Herman, or Hawkins, or Barnett, or Pinkle, or Slocum, or Francionne, or Mangino, or anyone else I left off. But sure, it always works out in the end. 19 penalties to 1 yard.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Just now, Smax said:

 

 

oh

oh my

now I'm convinced..... once again holding happens on every play, calls are missed on nearly every play, go to any school of your choosing forum like this and they can conjure up the same screenshots and same argument about how the refs are out to get them.

Blatant holding on the contain in a wide open field which led to the game winning field? Safeties not called? Obvious facemask that would five first and goal? In a one point game?

You don’t have to be convinced. That’s at least five points, maybe nine, on those missed calls. Yeah, officials screw up. They screwed these up. If you don’t think those screw ups directly affected the score, we’ll just disagree. 

[Nivek 16854]

 
 
oh
oh my
now I'm convinced..... once again holding happens on every play, calls are missed on nearly every play, go to any school of your choosing forum like this and they can conjure up the same screenshots and same argument about how the refs are out to get them.

No look up the number of holds called against Texas and compare it to the number called against Texas opponents when facing Texas.

 
 
oh
oh my
now I'm convinced..... once again holding happens on every play, calls are missed on nearly every play, go to any school of your choosing forum like this and they can conjure up the same screenshots and same argument about how the refs are out to get them.

No look up the number of holds called against Texas and compare it to the number called against Texas opponents when facing Texas.

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Standard lazy false equivalency. Both of their long TDs were from holds at the LOS.

19 penalties to 1 yard. In 2 games. Bad spots which make one team need 11.5 yards for a first and the other need about 8.5 yards, is not an accident.

It has been posted with pictures and video ad nauseam.

Think about it this way. One team is hawkishly scrutinized for infractions and called for them about 90% of the time. The other team is not scrutinized and is called for them 10% of the time. Does this impact the outcome?

Or does it happen to every coach for an official to run into him and then flag him? Maybe it is very normal and I just have no idea. I for some reason cannot recall Stoops or Patterson or Leach or Snyder, or Steele, or Dykes, or Brown, or Aranda, or Briles, or Gundy, or Solich, or Callahan, or Campbell, or Chizek, or Miles, or Herman, or Hawkins, or Barnett, or Pinkle, or Slocum, or Francionne, or Mangino, or anyone else I left off. But sure, it always works out in the end. 19 penalties to 1 yard.

so youre saying there is some cabal within the big 12 and or big 12 refs out to get Texas.? 

Whats the reasoning? Everything is about money where is the money in keeping Texas down

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

No look up the number of holds called against Texas and compare it to the number called against Texas opponents when facing Texas.
No look up the number of holds called against Texas and compare it to the number called against Texas opponents when facing Texas.

link me to the database please

 

[statsman 5422]

44 minutes ago, Smax said:

link me to the database please

 

https://texassports.com/sports/football/stats/2022?path=football
 

Have at it. Many of us have. 
 
There were two times all season when a B12 team was called for a hold against Texas. In each case, a personal foul on Texas kept the drive going. (😄”It’s ok; we got you. Just got to make it look reasonable”)

Why? Because the refs work for the B12 and Texas and OU are leaving the B12. The refs see Texas as the team hurting their employer. 

[closetohumping 17399]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

https://texassports.com/sports/football/stats/2022?path=football
 

Have at it. Many of us have. 
 
There were two times all season when a B12 team was called for a hold against Texas. In each case, a personal foul on Texas kept the drive going. (😄”It’s ok; we got you. Just got to make it look reasonable”)

Why? Because the refs work for the B12 and Texas and OU are leaving the B12. The refs see Texas as the team hurting their employer. 

I laughed when they finally called a penalty late vs Baylor.  It was a 3 yard half the distance to the goal penalty.