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Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

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ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21,098

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3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Technically. 
DKR was born on what had been Texas soil (Greer County) just a few years after it was stolen by the Sooners via a misguided Supreme Court decision.

Hey, oldman!  Don't CR the football board!  

Jokes aside, that's a fun story.  Royal proved a sooner grad can turn out to be just about anything...

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It's a large Texas forum. Every thread will largely be dominated by Texas posters. This is news? Not only that, it's funny in some form? My view is that the Big 12 will be fine as the 4th of 4 la

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Smax

Smax 3,800

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

https://texassports.com/sports/football/stats/2022?path=football
 

Have at it. Many of us have. 
 
There were two times all season when a B12 team was called for a hold against Texas. In each case, a personal foul on Texas kept the drive going. (😄”It’s ok; we got you. Just got to make it look reasonable”)

Why? Because the refs work for the B12 and Texas and OU are leaving the B12. The refs see Texas as the team hurting their employer. 

A little suspect but not as egregious as many here are making it to be, I just glanced but it appears we were within a few penalties of our opponents for most years. There were a few bad years but 2022 was not one of them.

The first thing that comes to my mind is what is the most comment penalty called, I'd guess holding. How many offensive linemen have we had drafted over the last decade?

Were there bad calls, I'm sure there are bad calls every game, watching the NFC championship game rn and there have been several, it happens. I'm of the mind that poor coaching choices, bad recruitment, entitlement and meddling donors are more to blame for the crap product then refs out to get us

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Doc Daneeka

Doc Daneeka 6,769

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1 minute ago, Smax said:

A little suspect but not as egregious as many here are making it to be, I just glanced but it appears we were within a few penalties of our opponents for most years. There were a few bad years but 2022 was not one of them.

The first thing that comes to my mind is what is the most comment penalty called, I'd guess holding. How many offensive linemen have we had drafted over the last decade?

Were there bad calls, I'm sure there are bad calls every game, watching the NFC championship game rn and there have been several, it happens. I'm of the mind that poor coaching choices, bad recruitment, entitlement and meddling donors are more to blame for the crap product then refs out to get us

It’s much more complex than that, but no minds will be changed here. 

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General Specific

General Specific 3,233

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A little suspect but not as egregious as many here are making it to be, I just glanced but it appears we were within a few penalties of our opponents for most years. There were a few bad years but 2022 was not one of them.
The first thing that comes to my mind is what is the most comment penalty called, I'd guess holding. How many offensive linemen have we had drafted over the last decade?
Were there bad calls, I'm sure there are bad calls every game, watching the NFC championship game rn and there have been several, it happens. I'm of the mind that poor coaching choices, bad recruitment, entitlement and meddling donors are more to blame for the crap product then refs out to get us

Are you a Ref? You have to tell us if you’re a Ref!
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statsman

statsman 5,422

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Prior to the B12 departure, I would only point to three games where the officials really and truly screwed us-

1. The Grant Teaff departure Baylor game. 
2. the 1999 post bonfire TAMU game. 
3. the 2015 OSU game. 
 
You just have to watch the games, to see catch-fumble called as a catch or incomplete, to see fumbles awarded to a guy who entered the scrum after it settled, to see personal foul flags for out of bounds hits picked up. Those were all unique circumstances. 
 
Since 2021, the B12 has seen Texas and OU as problemS, and games have been officiated differently. 

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Nivek

Nivek 16,854

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Sam Ellinger had multiple hits to the head/helmet that were not called.   Colt McCoy was hit after the whistle that everyone from the announcers to the fans, to the coaches, to the 21 other players, and the refs all heard but suddenly "I didn't hear it" became an excuse for not tossing a flag?   Texas flagged for a hook em.  Opponents were not flagged for taunting with the inverted signal.  Texas flagged for "holstering" the guns up.    So taunting Texas was fine, but Texas taunting back or celebrating is a problem.

The difference between the Mack era and now is that we were good enough to overcome most of the bullshit.  But after Mack Brown, the B12 ref fuckery just became more shameless.   2008, Texas Tech was getting flagged all the time for holding except for one game which would have sent us headed to the title.  

 

 

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cochamps

cochamps 1,876

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18 hours ago, Smax said:

A little suspect but not as egregious as many here are making it to be, I just glanced but it appears we were within a few penalties of our opponents for most years. There were a few bad years but 2022 was not one of them.

The first thing that comes to my mind is what is the most comment penalty called, I'd guess holding. How many offensive linemen have we had drafted over the last decade?

Were there bad calls, I'm sure there are bad calls every game, watching the NFC championship game rn and there have been several, it happens. I'm of the mind that poor coaching choices, bad recruitment, entitlement and meddling donors are more to blame for the crap product then refs out to get us

The holding non-call and the ridiculous targeting call (Still haven't figured out how they came up with that one) would have changed the outcome of the Bama game.  Seems pretty egregious to me dude.

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cochamps

cochamps 1,876

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And if you want a motive, how about sticking it to the schools leaving the Big XII conference?  There was an LA Times article mid-season about penalties assessed on UT, OU, USC and UCLA.  At the time those schools had incurred 13XX yards in penalties versus 9XX for their opponents.

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'stache

'stache 21,769

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Are there no referees that attended or grew up as fans of OU, TX, USC, or UCLA? Seems unlikely. And of all the referees who have heard the plan, none of them stood up and said "hey that seems pretty unethical, we should just call it like we see it." And none of them leaked to the media that they were instructed to make calls against a particular program? Were they paid extra to do stuff like that? If they are intentionally skewing the calls, seems more likely there would be gambling money involved, not a universal plan to "punish" schools for leaving a conference.

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statsman

statsman 5,422

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It’s not collusion, just really strong bias. Ono e sideline you have a team that is sticking it to your employer. On the other side you have…your employer. 
 
It’s really easy to let the bias impact a game. You just listen to the coach. “They’re holding, ref! They’re calling our signals!” They’ll guide you to what to do (or not do). 

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Magus Ossis

Magus Ossis 2,783

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29 minutes ago, statsman said:

It’s not collusion, just really strong bias. Ono e sideline you have a team that is sticking it to your employer. On the other side you have…your employer. 
 
It’s really easy to let the bias impact a game. You just listen to the coach. “They’re holding, ref! They’re calling our signals!” They’ll guide you to what to do (or not do). 

This. All humans have biases. Normally it doesn’t result in a statistically significant change this easy to measure. There are likely isolated cases of conscious calling one way or another, but the data support that the refs may have a bias against the departing schools.

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T-shirt Sip

T-shirt Sip 2,097

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18 hours ago, statsman said:

Prior to the B12 departure, I would only point to three games where the officials really and truly screwed us-

1. The Grant Teaff departure Baylor game. 
2. the 1999 post bonfire TAMU game. 
3. the 2015 OSU game. 
 
You just have to watch the games, to see catch-fumble called as a catch or incomplete, to see fumbles awarded to a guy who entered the scrum after it settled, to see personal foul flags for out of bounds hits picked up. Those were all unique circumstances. 
 
Since 2021, the B12 has seen Texas and OU as problemS, and games have been officiated differently. 

Don't forget the PF Unsportsman penalty on Charlie. That has never been called in my 45 years of watching football. 

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Smax

Smax 3,800

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13 minutes ago, Magus Ossis said:

This. All humans have biases. Normally it doesn’t result in a statistically significant change this easy to measure. There are likely isolated cases of conscious calling one way or another, but the data support that the refs may have a bias against the departing schools.

 

Agree all humans can have a bias, remember the video of a big12 ref fist pumping when we scored a TD I believe it was against oklast in the early 2000's.  But I think many of you are putting too much stock in that the big12 refs gives a shit one way or the other which teams are in the big12. Its likely some do but from 360 to HF to shaggy to here, there has been constant complaining about the refs are out to get Texas. So what's the reasoning for the prior 20 years?

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'stache

'stache 21,769

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I just don't see the connection, what incentives any official has to give a shit about whose leaving the conference and whose staying. Every ref probably has an alma mater or a team they were fond of growing up and may still have allegiances while refing, but it rarely comes up why bad calls are made. It's been discussed here as some league office instruction to screw OU and TX over and it just doesn't track. In the 2015 game I think it was obvious that Strong or someone else pissed off the refs somehow and they went rogue. It certainly didn't have anything to do with OSU paying anyone off or there being any real reason to artificially decide that UT should lose that game. 

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cochamps

cochamps 1,876

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2 hours ago, 'stache said:

Are there no referees that attended or grew up as fans of OU, TX, USC, or UCLA? Seems unlikely. And of all the referees who have heard the plan, none of them stood up and said "hey that seems pretty unethical, we should just call it like we see it." And none of them leaked to the media that they were instructed to make calls against a particular program? Were they paid extra to do stuff like that? If they are intentionally skewing the calls, seems more likely there would be gambling money involved, not a universal plan to "punish" schools for leaving a conference.

 

2 hours ago, cochamps said:

And if you want a motive, how about sticking it to the schools leaving the Big XII conference?  There was an LA Times article mid-season about penalties assessed on UT, OU, USC and UCLA.  At the time those schools had incurred 13XX yards in penalties versus 9XX for their opponents.

1300 yards versus 900 yards "seems" kind of lopsided to me.  

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Magus Ossis

Magus Ossis 2,783

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2 hours ago, 'stache said:

I just don't see the connection, what incentives any official has to give a shit about whose leaving the conference and whose staying. Every ref probably has an alma mater or a team they were fond of growing up and may still have allegiances while refing, but it rarely comes up why bad calls are made. It's been discussed here as some league office instruction to screw OU and TX over and it just doesn't track. In the 2015 game I think it was obvious that Strong or someone else pissed off the refs somehow and they went rogue. It certainly didn't have anything to do with OSU paying anyone off or there being any real reason to artificially decide that UT should lose that game. 

I do not allege, nor have I seen it seriously alleged, that the refs as a group are "out to get" Texas. One premise is that, since announcing departure, the departing schools have been penalized statistically significantly more often than have their opponents-- multiple teams over a multiple game span. The assumption is that this is not purely stochastic. If you wanted to run some statistical tests to rule out the null hypothesis more formally, you are welcome. The conclusion is that, given a known disparity in penalties, one reasonable explanation is that this represents (whether consciously or not) bias on the part of the officials. I do not see dispute regarding the penalty data nor regarding the fact that everyone has bias. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary. I am not sure though that I fully appreciate what your line of attack is on the argument in logical terms. Is your argument that bias can't cause disparity without conscious intent?

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Paul Wesley

Paul Wesley 3,277

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6 hours ago, 'stache said:

In the 2015 game I think it was obvious that Strong or someone else pissed off the refs somehow and they went rogue. 

I suppose anything is possible - we'll never know - but that just seems highly unlikely.   

I'm not sure you could find a more WTF personal foul against a coach in any sport.  

I'd say way more likely than "refs hated Strong" is that somebody quietly had $$$ on the outcome.  We know for a fact that the system has been clowned for gambling $ in both college basketball players and with NBA officials.

Watch it on YouTube.  I've seen refs who were stunned that a coach or player bumped them, and it takes them a second to digest what just happened and then throw the flag (or throw them out of the game).  But that ref is chasing after him, then hitting him from behind and flagging him all in one motion.  It's pretty dirty.

Screen-Shot-2023-01-30-at-7-38-05-PM.png

 

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'stache

'stache 21,769

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36 minutes ago, Paul Wesley said:

I suppose anything is possible - we'll never know - but that just seems highly unlikely.   

I'm not sure you could find a more WTF personal foul against a coach in any sport.  

I'd say way more likely than "refs hated Strong" is that somebody quietly had $$$ on the outcome.  We know for a fact that the system has been clowned for gambling $ in both college basketball players and with NBA officials.

Watch it on YouTube.  I've seen refs who were stunned that a coach or player bumped them, and it takes them a second to digest what just happened and then throw the flag (or throw them out of the game).  But that ref is chasing after him, then hitting him from behind and flagging him all in one motion.  It's pretty dirty.

Screen-Shot-2023-01-30-at-7-38-05-PM.png

 

Gambling interests might be an explanation. The only ones I reject are that OSU paid the refs, or that the league office instructed them to screw UT. I think there is evidence of a coach pissing off a ref and calls go against them so I think it's more likely. 

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Js1

Js1 85,101

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9 minutes ago, Honeysucklerose said:

No okie state on the farewell tour:

https://pokesreport.com/s/3897/multiple-sources-reporting-2023-big-12-football-schedule-out-this-week

No okie state on the farewell tour:

https://pokesreport.com/s/3897/multiple-sources-reporting-2023-big-12-football-schedule-out-this-week

Please god 

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Paul Wesley

Paul Wesley 3,277

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1 minute ago, 'stache said:

Gambling interests might be an explanation. The only ones I reject are that OSU paid the refs, or that the league office instructed them to screw UT. I think there is evidence of a coach pissing off a ref and calls go against them so I think it's more likely. 

Yeah, I'm not down for any league-wide conspiracies or whatever.  

I just think "Charlie pissed them off" doesn't line up with any behavior we saw from Strong in his entire career, including in that game.  He's remarkably restrained.  I've seen Bo Pellini repeatedly go on red-faced, spit-flying, chest-bumping, unhinged rants (and not get flagged).  We never saw Charlie act like that for a single moment.  

... unless, of course, that ref thought he was being - you know - uppity.  

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Zeus

Zeus 5,948

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7 hours ago, 'stache said:

I just don't see the connection, what incentives any official has to give a shit about whose leaving the conference and whose staying. Every ref probably has an alma mater or a team they were fond of growing up and may still have allegiances while refing, but it rarely comes up why bad calls are made. It's been discussed here as some league office instruction to screw OU and TX over and it just doesn't track. In the 2015 game I think it was obvious that Strong or someone else pissed off the refs somehow and they went rogue. It certainly didn't have anything to do with OSU paying anyone off or there being any real reason to artificially decide that UT should lose that game. 

 

I was at this one, glad we are leaving this clown conference. Took way to long to get out.

Rot in hell rig12

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HenryJames

HenryJames 65,888

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1 hour ago, Honeysucklerose said:

No okie state on the farewell tour:

https://pokesreport.com/s/3897/multiple-sources-reporting-2023-big-12-football-schedule-out-this-week

No okie state on the farewell tour:

https://pokesreport.com/s/3897/multiple-sources-reporting-2023-big-12-football-schedule-out-this-week

 

D1689AC2-7E8F-4D28-9DE4-1442E2796349.webp

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6,310

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38 minutes ago, Paul Wesley said:

... unless, of course, that ref thought he was being - you know - uppity.  

I mean, that’s what I always thought it was about. A decade and a half of the Stoops brothers and Pellini having conniption fits on the sidelines in this conference and I never once saw them draw a personal foul penalty, much less at a critical juncture of a game. Im not saying it was any kind of conspiracy, I’m saying that ref on that sideline call seemed to be looking for a reason to throw that flag…for some reason.

But yeah, fuck that game forever. What did we have 2 TDs called back, plus that DT holding call, and that personal foul.

I am always one to acknowledge that simple incompetence can usually explain things like this, but something seemed all fuckwards that day, beyond just incompetent refs. (Not saying OSU did anything shady or anything like that, just that shit was really weird.)

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RoyalBevo21

RoyalBevo21 719

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The Big 12 is going to be extremely irrelevant moving forward. Was just thumbing through Twitter about the Big 12 schedule release. A fan from every Big 12 fanbase said the same thing "we better be playing Texas or Oklahoma" 

 

Nobody else moves the needle. Even TCU fresh off a National Title appearance. Nobody gives a fuck about them. 

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