Left Behind: A Quick Dose Of Post Big 12 Reality

[BurntOrange&White 39,661]

30 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Yup.  They could have swooped up all the Big 12 publics and TCU in 2021 and locked up #3 status, but ya know, they were just better than that dang it.

Their academic prowess is superior except with reality of the landscape lol

[DFW Horn 6,118]

8 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

The Big 12 should definitely invite Liberty then…having a huge enrollment isn’t always a good thing and comparing them to aggy is laughable. aggy (occasionally) fills up a 100k seat stadium while UCF averages 35k in attendance which is only 80% of their new smaller capacity stadium. Yes better opponents will help but that’s not a great sign.

It’s a gamble. The Big 12 is gambling that UCF will be able to consistently compete at a higher level and actually get a large portion of their students/geographic area to start caring more about UCF/mostly out of region B12 football OVER UF/SEC and FSU/Miami/ACC…that’s not a sure thing and in many ways despite its huge enrollment, UCF is still very much a little directional school.

Now apply your attendance metric to Memphis. What was their average gate in 2022?

[Vertigo 20,267]

12 hours ago, Satchel said:

Given how it’s accidentally coming together, I don’t think it could have turned out any better the the legacy teams in the B12. Adding four P12 teams gives the conference a comfortable landing spot behind the B1G and Sec.

I am not sure adding these four teams moves the needle for football beyond where you currently are. Arizona and ASU are a nothing burger in football. Utah would certainly move the needle, but Colorado has been woeful since leaving the first time. If Oregon/Washington suddenly get interested, then that becomes a really compelling conference, but you will know that they will always be hunting that B1G membership. 

Oregon, Washington, BYU, Utah, Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Ok State, Tech 

TCU, Baylor, Houston, K-State, Kansas, UCF, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Iowa State

[closetohumping 17,401]

3 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Yup.  They could have swooped up all the Big 12 publics and TCU in 2021 and locked up #3 status, but ya know, they were just better than that dang it.

I think a lot of them wanted to but usc said no.  I guess we know why 

[TKthunder2 4,981]

3 hours ago, DFW Horn said:

Now apply your attendance metric to Memphis. What was their average gate in 2022?

27k 46% of their off campus stadium with an enrollment of 22k students. Meaning they pull in more fans than their student body.

[sdm 844]

5 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Their academic prowess is superior except with reality of the landscape lol

Sometimes eggheads lack common sense.

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1,291]

14 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

The Big 12 should definitely invite Liberty then…having a huge enrollment isn’t always a good thing and comparing them to aggy is laughable. aggy (occasionally) fills up a 100k seat stadium while UCF averages 35k in attendance which is only 80% of their new smaller capacity stadium. Yes better opponents will help but that’s not a great sign.

It’s a gamble. The Big 12 is gambling that UCF will be able to consistently compete at a higher level and actually get a large portion of their students/geographic area to start caring more about UCF/mostly out of region B12 football OVER UF/SEC and FSU/Miami/ACC…that’s not a sure thing and in many ways despite its huge enrollment, UCF is still very much a little directional school.

How often does Miami fill their stadium?

[billfromlaketravis 11,362]

Louisville is the one that got away for me. I wasn't really into bourbon in 2012, so I didn't really think all the much of UL. 

Much different perspective now. A game every other year in Louisville would have been a blast. 

[TKthunder2 4,981]

1 hour ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

How often does Miami fill their stadium?

Rarely outside of big games but they average 45k attendance around 70% of capacity of the off campus facility. Again Miami only has 12k undergrads so they do pretty well if you compare them to private schools:

Elite (60k): USC, ND

Good (40k): Miami, TCU, Baylor, BYU

Fair (30k): Stanford, Northwestern, Syracuse, Boston College

Bad (20k): Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, SMU, Duke

Real Bad (15k): Rice, Tulane, Liberty, Tulsa

[billfromlaketravis 11,362]

19 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Rarely outside of big games but they average 45k attendance around 70% of capacity of the off campus facility. Again Miami only has 12k undergrads so they do pretty well if you compare them to private schools:

Elite (60k): USC, ND

Good (40k): Miami, TCU, Baylor, BYU

Fair (30k): Stanford, Northwestern, Syracuse, Boston College

Bad (20k): Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, SMU, Duke

Real Bad (15k): Rice, Tulane, Liberty, Tulsa

Rice does it themselves. There's absolutely no reason why their home games should be more expensive than Coug High games. 

They should be selling $5 tickets with the purchase of a 20oz Coca Cola or something. Relatively large/nice stadium in a beautiful part of town. It shouldn't be permanently empty. 

[locodos 5,334]

36 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Rarely outside of big games but they average 45k attendance around 70% of capacity of the off campus facility. Again Miami only has 12k undergrads so they do pretty well if you compare them to private schools:

I'm calling BS on that.  Perhaps they have sold an average of 45k tickets, but average attendance is nowhere near that number.  I seem to recall years that single game tickets cost more than a 3 game ticket pack (or something like that).  So those big games had fans from other teams buying multigame tickets because it was cheaper.

counter point, don't know, don't care

 

[billfromlaketravis 11,362]

OK let’s play the game. Ideal Big 12 after 2012 sans OU and Texas:

Irate8 

Louisville 

TCU 

Corner schools

Oregon

UW

West Virginia gets to stay to get the conference to 16. 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by billfromlaketravis

[TKthunder2 4,981]

2 hours ago, locodos said:

I'm calling BS on that.  Perhaps they have sold an average of 45k tickets, but average attendance is nowhere near that number.  I seem to recall years that single game tickets cost more than a 3 game ticket pack (or something like that).  So those big games had fans from other teams buying multigame tickets because it was cheaper.

counter point, don't know, don't care

 

Obviously attendance is reported by the schools, but unless you have the fire marshals reporting the turnstiles at every game it’s the best we have. aggy reported 90k attended their UMass game that looked to barely have 20k, but the official statistics are the official statistics.

[TKthunder2 4,981]

20 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

OK let’s play the game. Ideal Big 12 after 2012 sans OU and Texas:

Irate8 

Louisville 

TCU 

Corner schools

Oregon

UW

West Virginia gets to stay to get the conference to 16. 

 

Confusing premise is confusing.

Big 12 pre TCU/WVU w/o UT/OU…

Would have been the PAC12 adding Kansas, Iowa St, Oklahoma St, and TX Tech to get to 16.

USC/UCLA bolt and then they add TCU and Houston.

[billfromlaketravis 11,362]

4 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Confusing premise is confusing.

Big 12 pre TCU/WVU w/o UT/OU…

Would have been the PAC12 adding Kansas, Iowa St, Oklahoma St, and TX Tech to get to 16.

USC/UCLA bolt and then they add TCU and Houston.

Yeah I should have phrased that better. Basically this was my ideal Big 12 without Texas and OU. 
 

But who gives a shit. We’re leaving anyway. 

[thunderlounge 7,758]

On 3/2/2023 at 4:23 PM, Crockett said:

I've eaten excellent BBQ in Dallas, Austin, Houston, Kansas City, Nashville, Memphis, and more btw.

You lost me after Houston. 
 

The rest is shit. 

[bullet 1,596]

19 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Rice does it themselves. There's absolutely no reason why their home games should be more expensive than Coug High games. 

They should be selling $5 tickets with the purchase of a 20oz Coca Cola or something. Relatively large/nice stadium in a beautiful part of town. It shouldn't be permanently empty. 

They have tried that.  in the 2000s they were doing $99 family season tickets in the end zone-adults and 2 children.

They did a couple of sell out efforts with cheap tickets.  Drew 50k for an Air Force game.

Didn't seem to add permanent fans.

[TKthunder2 4,981]

1 hour ago, bullet said:

They have tried that.  in the 2000s they were doing $99 family season tickets in the end zone-adults and 2 children.

They did a couple of sell out efforts with cheap tickets.  Drew 50k for an Air Force game.

Didn't seem to add permanent fans.

People don’t like to watch the home team lose.

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

Really, really happy with what Yormark is doing.  I'm not a fan of his idea to bring in basketball-only members, but I'm a fan of everything else this guy has come up with:

 

 

[Vertigo 20,267]

2 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

Really, really happy with what Yormark is doing.  I'm not a fan of his idea to bring in basketball-only members, but I'm a fan of everything else this guy has come up with:

 

 

Oh shit.. that is brilliant. 

[Francisco 2.0 32,342]

10 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Oh shit.. that is brilliant. 

 

Easily the smartest thing the conference has done in over 20 years, if not ever.

 

 

[oSuJeff97 3,435]

Yormark out here playing 4D chess.

PAC has not chance, lol. 

[BurntOrange&White 39,661]

20 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

Really, really happy with what Yormark is doing.  I'm not a fan of his idea to bring in basketball-only members, but I'm a fan of everything else this guy has come up with:

 

 

I think bringing in Gonzaga is great for the conference and it's great for Gonzaga. I feel like they're regular conference schedule does a shit job of preparing them for the tourney. 

[KennyPowders 331]

A big12 pro day will be a necessity...
 

..mainly due to the fact that no scout or team is going to want waste resources going to each school seeing all the undrafted free agents in this has been conference. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by KennyPowders

[Laxtonto 11,934]

2 minutes ago, KennyPowders said:

A big12 pro day will be a necessity...
 

..mainly due to the fact that no scout or team is going to want waste resources seeing all the undrafted free agents in this has been conference. 

How quickly before this is common for the SEC and B1G as well?

[oSuJeff97 3,435]

3 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

How quickly before this is common for the SEC and B1G as well?

Exactly.

Dipshit above is missing the point as usual.  It's less about the fact that it's a conference pro day in that it's a TV show with the associated revenue. Every conference will be doing this in the next 2-3 years.

Edited March 15, 2023 by oSuJeff97

[Laxtonto 11,934]

Just now, oSuJeff97 said:

Exactly.

Dipshit is missing the point above. It's less about the fact that it's a conference pro day in that it's a TV show with the associated revenue. Every conference will be doing this in the next 2-3 years.

I think the job fair and all of that other stuff is actually a bigger deal for the conference than the combine aspect. The meat show isnt going to radically change any student-athletes life, but doing a league-wide job fair is going to be massive and a great way to continue the idea that the conference does everything it can to make it student-athletes successful

[Deej 76,568]

Baylor players are going to own the rape drill every year. 

[Vertigo 20,267]

58 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

Exactly.

Dipshit above is missing the point as usual.  It's less about the fact that it's a conference pro day in that it's a TV show with the associated revenue. Every conference will be doing this in the next 2-3 years.

This. And for schools in the B12 like K-State and WVU, where it is a pain in the ass to get to the campus, they will quadruple their exposure by putting everyone in one place. That raises the chances that they get drafted.  

[66BUFF 2,554]

1 hour ago, KennyPowders said:

A big12 pro day will be a necessity...
 

..mainly due to the fact that no scout or team is going to want waste resources going to each school seeing all the undrafted free agents in this has been conference. 

 

 

[Sandman 3,402]

1 hour ago, KennyPowders said:

seeing all the undrafted free agents in this has been conference. 

Like Texas last year, when no horns were drafted?

[Texas Wahoo 3,383]

1 hour ago, oSuJeff97 said:

Exactly.

Dipshit above is missing the point as usual.  It's less about the fact that it's a conference pro day in that it's a TV show with the associated revenue. Every conference will be doing this in the next 2-3 years.

It is a great idea for the Big 12 (and Pac 12), but I'm not sure it makes sense for the SEC.  Does ESPN/SEC Network want to give up broadcasting all of the school specific pro-days in order to have one event?  

[oSuJeff97 3,435]

2 minutes ago, Texas Wahoo said:

It is a great idea for the Big 12 (and Pac 12), but I'm not sure it makes sense for the SEC.  Does ESPN/SEC Network want to give up broadcasting all of the school specific pro-days in order to have one event?  

I don't think they would be "giving up" the school specific days so much as it would be just creating a specific TV event for the whole conference.  I wasn't meaning that NFL Network would be the exclusive broadcaster... would likely be ESPN/SECN and or a combination of NFL Network and ESPN/SECN, not unlike how both networks extensively cover the NFL Draft and Combine.

If the media money is there, I have no doubt they will do it.

[Texas Wahoo 3,383]

2 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I don't think they would be "giving up" the school specific days so much as it would be just creating a specific TV event for the whole conference.  I wasn't meaning that NFL Network would be the exclusive broadcaster... would likely be ESPN/SECN and or a combination of NFL Network and ESPN/SECN, not unlike how both networks extensively cover the NFL Draft and Combine.

If the media money is there, I have no doubt they will do it.

I'm just speculating that televising separate pro-days at Bama, Georgia, Texas, OU, Florida, LSU, etc. will make the conference and ESPN more money than joining them all up into a single SEC pro-day, like the Big 12 is doing.  

[KennyPowders 331]

Everyone has proven me wrong, you are right...

Student athletes will be flocking to go to the big12 to further their prospects so that they can be showcased on whomever buys bally sports...

...now I can watch minor league hockey and the big12 pro day and this is the sort of commitment to student athletes that will bring in the 5 star talent

[Thiefery 4,969]

Does UT and ou send it's players to Frisco or do they test at the combine and Pro Day on Campus?

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

3 minutes ago, Thiefery said:

Does UT and ou send it's players to Frisco or do they test at the combine and Pro Day on Campus?

Well, since this would be a Big 12 Pro Day in Frisco, they would not. Or do you just mean for the one year next year?

 

[BurntOrange&White 39,661]

4 minutes ago, Thiefery said:

Does UT and ou send it's players to Frisco or do they test at the combine and Pro Day on Campus?

I think if players opt they can go to this combine since we're still big 12 member until next July.

[Thiefery 4,969]

2 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

Well, since this would be a Big 12 Pro Day in Frisco, they would not. Or do you just mean for the one year next year?

 

yeah just for next near since we technically are still in the conference til June?

[oSuJeff97 3,435]

26 minutes ago, KennyPowders said:

Everyone has proven me wrong, you are right...

Student athletes will be flocking to go to the big12 to further their prospects so that they can be showcased on whomever buys bally sports...

...now I can watch minor league hockey and the big12 pro day and this is the sort of commitment to student athletes that will bring in the 5 star talent

That's a lot of word salad to say you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

4 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

That's a lot of word salad to say you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

I think he's become a caricature of his avatar.

[Al_4_ISU 12,409]

3 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

I think he's become a caricature of his avatar.

Isn't that the whole schtick?

[DFW Horn 6,118]

5 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Isn't that the whole schtick?

Next, Yormark needs to ink a Big 12 shoe deal with K-Swiss motherfuckers

 

[JFKFC 4,878]

6 hours ago, KennyPowders said:

Everyone has proven me wrong, you are right...

Student athletes will be flocking to go to the big12 to further their prospects so that they can be showcased on whomever buys bally sports...

...now I can watch minor league hockey and the big12 pro day and this is the sort of commitment to student athletes that will bring in the 5 star talent

[Deej 76,568]

6 hours ago, Thiefery said:

Does UT and ou send it's players to Frisco or do they test at the combine and Pro Day on Campus?

You'd hate to miss a few days in Frisco.

[TKthunder2 4,981]

10 hours ago, Texas Wahoo said:

I'm just speculating that televising separate pro-days at Bama, Georgia, Texas, OU, Florida, LSU, etc. will make the conference and ESPN more money than joining them all up into a single SEC pro-day, like the Big 12 is doing.  

True, but a SEC pro day wouldn’t hurt. Let’s anyone who had a bad showing at their local pro day get a second look by scout who were in attendance, and likely seen by more scouts overall simply because it’s more efficient. With the increase in non-NFL leagues this is also a great bang for your buck event for those types of leagues (XFL, USFL, CFL) which generally have less expandable income for scouting too.

While I still expect school based pro days to continue, for the Big 12 and the non helmet schools of the SEC and Big Ten a conference based pro days is a great idea.

I think lauding this conference event as TV inventory is dumb as it will not be widely watched so it’s basically just more filler and not a revenue driver.

The genius of this event is recognizing that players for these 2nd/3rd class brands will not be given the benefit of the doubt (like similar players in the SEC/B1G) which is what we’ve complained about for years. The conference will benefit significantly by having more players in the NFL, from a respect/status standpoint and it also can help recruiting (not a ton but some).

Removing barriers to making the Big 12 athletes successful is a great idea. Scouts are lazy and many Big 12 schools are not easy to get to, or don’t have a lot of great prospects that make the efforts worth wild. They rather visit the major helmet schools (Bama, Michigan, Clemson, USC) and fill out their practice squads and scout teams with UDFA from those programs that may be less deserving than one from K State simply because they never saw the K State player.

Now with a Big 12 pro day, they have an easy visit to see these players live/in person which can pay dividends down the road and increase the status of the league in respect to the PAC/ACC as they solidify themselves into that #3 position.

[oSuJeff97 3,435]

11 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

True, but a SEC pro day wouldn’t hurt. Let’s anyone who had a bad showing at their local pro day get a second look by scout who were in attendance, and likely seen by more scouts overall simply because it’s more efficient. With the increase in non-NFL leagues this is also a great bang for your buck event for those types of leagues (XFL, USFL, CFL) which generally have less expandable income for scouting too.

While I still expect school based pro days to continue, for the Big 12 and the non helmet schools of the SEC and Big Ten a conference based pro days is a great idea.

I think lauding this conference event as TV inventory is dumb as it will not be widely watched so it’s basically just more filler and not a revenue driver.

The genius of this event is recognizing that players for these 2nd/3rd class brands will not be given the benefit of the doubt (like similar players in the SEC/B1G) which is what we’ve complained about for years. The conference will benefit significantly by having more players in the NFL, from a respect/status standpoint and it also can help recruiting (not a ton but some).

Removing barriers to making the Big 12 athletes successful is a great idea. Scouts are lazy and many Big 12 schools are not easy to get to, or don’t have a lot of great prospects that make the efforts worth wild. They rather visit the major helmet schools (Bama, Michigan, Clemson, USC) and fill out their practice squads and scout teams with UDFA from those programs that may be less deserving than one from K State simply because they never saw the K State player.

Now with a Big 12 pro day, they have an easy visit to see these players live/in person which can pay dividends down the road and increase the status of the league in respect to the PAC/ACC as they solidify themselves into that #3 position.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  

My brother-in-law is a scout for an NFL team. He travels a TON and goes all over the place. Scouts may not visit literally every school in FBS and FCS but they absolutely have not problem (and do) visit every single P5 school.  You're acting like some of the lesser Big 12 schools are end-of-the-line G5 schools; that's 100% not the case.

The idea that NFL scouts wouldn't have seen a player from a program like K-State is completely and totally false.

[Deej 76,568]

11 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Let’s anyone who had a bad showing at their local pro day get a second look by scout

Bad combine? No problem, still got pro day. Bad pro day? No problem, still have the conference pro day. 

You either have the measurables or you don't. Keep trying though, I guess. 

 

[Vertigo 20,267]

42 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I'm not sure I agree with this.  

My brother-in-law is a scout for an NFL team. He travels a TON and goes all over the place. Scouts may not visit literally every school in FBS and FCS but they absolutely have not problem (and do) visit every single P5 school.  You're acting like some of the lesser Big 12 schools are end-of-the-line G5 schools; that's 100% not the case.

The idea that NFL scouts wouldn't have seen a player from a program like K-State is completely and totally false.

Yes, but you also have marginal attendance at some of the schools without any top prospects. There may be 5 or 6 scouts at a pro day in Morgantown, especially if it is later in the process. 

[royiv 9,163]

15 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Yes, but you also have marginal attendance at some of the schools without any top prospects. There may be 5 or 6 scouts at a pro day in Morgantown, especially if it is later in the process. 

How many showed up in Austin last year? Serious question.