Right to Repair, or Fuck Apple and John Deere

[crash_davis 23115]

Finally a "win" for consumers. Not sure what impact this will have, how it will be in practice or how long it will last since it will prob be overturned with the next president, or the one after.

https://www.wired.com/story/ftc-votes-to-enforce-right-to-repair/

The FTC Votes Unanimously to Enforce Right to Repair

Oh yea....that last sentence. 

Quote

The move follows an executive order issued last week by the White House urging the agency to secure consumers' rights to fix their own gadgets.

You may soon be able to swap out your phone's screen or battery yourself—no questions asked, no warranties voided.PHOTOGRAPH: GETTY IMAGES

DURING AN OPEN commission meeting Wednesday, the Federal Trade Commission voted unanimously to enforce laws around the Right to Repair, thereby ensuring that US consumers will be able to repair their own electronic and automotive devices.

The FTC’s endorsement of the rules is not a surprise outcome; the issue of Right to Repair has been a remarkably bipartisan one, and the FTC itself issued a lengthy report in May that blasted manufacturers for restricting repairs. But the 5 to 0 vote signals the commission’s commitment to enforce both federal antitrust laws and a key law around consumer warranties—the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act—when it comes to personal device repairs.

The vote, which was led by new FTC chair and known tech critic Lina Khan, also comes 12 days after President Joe Biden signed a broad executive order aimed at promoting competition in the US economy. The order addressed a wide range of industries, from banks to airlines to tech companies. But a portion of it encouraged the FTC, which operates as an independent agency, to create new rules that would prevent companies from restricting repair options for consumers.

“When you buy an expensive product, whether it's a half-a-million-dollar tractor or a thousand-dollar phone, you are in a very real sense under the power of the manufacturer,” says Tim Wu, special assistant to the president for technology and competition policy within the National Economic Council. “And when they have repair specifications that are unreasonable, there's not a lot you can do."

Wu added that Right to Repair has become a "visceral example" of the enormous imbalance between workers, consumers, small businesses, and larger entities.

Fixed Position

The FTC vote is another win for the Right to Repair movement in the US, which has been led by advocacy groups like the US Public Interest Research Group, as well as private companies like iFixit, the California-based company that sells gadget repair kits and publishes repair manuals for DIY tinkerers. Proponents of the Right to Repair have long argued that consumers should have access to the tools, parts, documentation, and software required to fix the products they own, whether it’s a smartphone or a tractor.

These groups are also quick to call out instances in which large manufacturers block or limit options for independent product repairs, or force consumers to go directly back to a manufacturer, who then charges a premium for a fix. And it’s not just a matter of fixing a broken glass back on a smartphone, or repairing an impossibly small smartwatch: During the height of the coronavirus pandemic in the spring of 2020, medical device engineers began speaking out on the dangers of not having access to repair tools for critical devices, such as ventilators, during times of crisis.

As more products are designed with internet connectivity—from smartphones to refrigerators to cars—the issue of repair rights has become increasingly complicated. Repair advocates say consumers should have access to all of the data that their personal devices collect, and that independent repair shops should have access to the same software diagnostic tools that “authorized” shops have.

“I urge the FTC to use its rulemaking authority to reinforce basic consumer and private property rights, and to update it for the digital age, as manufacturers seek to turn hundreds of millions of owners of technology into tenants of their own property,” said Paul Roberts, the founder of Securepairs.org, during a public comments section of today’s FTC meeting. “A digital Right to Repair is a vital tool that will extend the life of electronic devices.”

But some large manufacturers oppose this notion, arguing that it will make products less secure and could expose consumers to safety risks. John Deere, one of the world’s leading tractor makers, has issued statements saying that it “does not support the right to modify embedded software due to risks associated with the safe operation of the equipment, emissions compliance, and engine performance.”

During the comments portion of the FTC hearing today, a representative for the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute claimed that “Right to Repair legislation fails to consider consumer safety and environmental protection with respect to our industry’s products … as an example, it would allow for modification of and tampering with safety controls of powered lawn mower blades required under law by the CPSC, as well as emissions controls required under law by the EPA.”

Carl Holshouser, senior vice president at TechNet, a trade group that has represented companies like Microsoft and Apple, wrote in an emailed statement to WIRED that “the FTC’s decision to upend an effective and secure system for consumers to repair products that they rely on for their health, safety, and well-being, including phones, computers, fire alarms, medical devices, and home security systems, will have far-reaching, permanent impacts on technology and cybersecurity.”

And ahead of the vote today, the Consumer Technology Association—which hosts the annual CES tech bonanza in Las Vegas—sent a letter to the FTC commissioners urging collaboration, rather than an “extensive rulemaking process,” citing intellectual property rights as a thorny issue at the heart of Right to Repair.

It’s worth noting, however, that in the FTC’s report in May, which was the culmination of data gathered after the commission hosted a “Nixing the Fix” panel in 2019, the FTC said there was “scant evidence to support manufacturers’ justifications for repair restrictions.” The report detailed a number of instances in which manufacturers may have overstated the risks of thermal runaway (read: batteries catching fire) or personal data breaches tied to device repairs.

For now, the FTC’s policy statement is a giant underscore for existing laws, while dozens of states consider Right to Repair bills at the state level. The commission said today it would investigate repair restrictions both as potential violations of antitrust laws and from a consumer protection angle. The FTC is also encouraging the public to report warranty abuse—as defined by the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act of 1975, which prohibits manufacturers from telling consumers that a warranty is voided if the product has been altered or tampered with by someone other than the original manufacturer.

Jessa Jones, a repair expert who runs a business in upstate New York called iPad Rehab, and who claims to have fixed over 40,000 iPhones, urged the FTC to take the enforcement of the existing regulations seriously.

“Despite the anti-tying statement within the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, there’s still rampant disregard of the FTC rules,” Jones said during the public comments portion of the meeting. “Consumers and manufacturers alike still believe that you can void a warranty simply by opening a device.”

 

[midtown 3348]

I watched a documentary about it a year ago.   This seems like rational decision

[crash_davis 23115]

4 minutes ago, midtown said:

I watched a documentary about it a year ago.   This seems like rational decision

If by rational you mean finally stop fucking over consumers because big business bought congressmen, than I completely agree with you.

Here's my apple story.

My kid's Iphone 6 had shittastic gps issues. Took it to Apple, resets phone. Still an issue. Sorry nothing else we can do, you have to buy a new phone. Yea fuck that. Went home, googled IPhone 6 GPS issue.

It was a common issue about the antenna breaking. The fix was a $9 part from Amazon and 20 mins to disassemble the Iphone. Apple knew this was an issue but leveraged it to sell more Iphones. I changed out 2 other Iphones which had this same issue. Apple has made it damned near impossible to fix their products. You can't even replace the camera lens housing on the new IPhones. Apple digitally tied it to the motherboard so that only Apple can replace it at whatever cost they decide to charge. It's a fucking camera lens which costs $20. Louis Rossman has a youtube channel with 1.6M subscribers basically fixing Macs that Apple lied to consumers about being able to fix. He details all the things Apple is doing to fuck over consumers to sell more shit and improve their revenue at the expense of consumers.

John Deere's bullshit is well documented on the internet. Farmers are having to install hacked Russian OS to be able to fix their tractors. 

How the fuck did we get here?

[Neonmoon 38130]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

If by rational you mean finally stop fucking over consumers because big business bought congressmen, than I completely agree with you.

Here's my apple story.

My kid's Iphone 6 had shittastic gps issues. Took it to Apple, resets phone. Still an issue. Sorry nothing else we can do, you have to buy a new phone. Yea fuck that. Went home, googled IPhone 6 GPS issue.

It was a common issue about the antenna breaking. The fix was a $9 part from Amazon and 20 mins to disassemble the Iphone. Apple knew this was an issue but leveraged it to sell more Iphones. I changed out 2 other Iphones which had this same issue. Apple has made it damned near impossible to fix their products. You can't even replace the camera lens housing on the new IPhones. Apple digitally tied it to the motherboard so that only Apple can replace it at whatever cost they decide to charge. It's a fucking camera lens which costs $20. Louis Rossman has a youtube channel with 1.6M subscribers basically fixing Macs that Apple lied to consumers about being able to fix. He details all the things Apple is doing to fuck over consumers to sell more shit and improve their revenue at the expense of consumers.

John Deere's bullshit is well documented on the internet. Farmers are having to install hacked Russian OS to be able to fix their tractors. 

How the fuck did we get here?

Lack of accountability 

[DalTxHornFan 3116]

I'm not a dim, but this is a good thing.  I wouldn't have been driving a Mercedes for the last 25 years or so if not for independent maintenance/repair shops.  The dealer shops are such a rip-off.

Edited July 23, 2021 by DalTxHornFan

[CooterBrown 18027]

I'm not a dim, but this is a good thing.  I wouldn't have been driving a Mercedes for the last 25 years or so if not for independent maintenance/repair shops.  The dealer shops are such a rip-off.

There is not a dealership that makes money selling cars. They are all repair shops that sell you products for them to fix.

[Wally Fairway 5584]

17 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

How the fuck did we get here?

Money
Good old American green backs
Millions of them

 

[XYZ 2154]

If the FTC polices this new “right to repair” rule as well as they did “do not call” violators, then everything should be honky dory.

[crash_davis 23115]

2 minutes ago, XYZ said:

If the FTC polices this new “right to repair” rule as well as they did “do not call” violators, then everything should be honky dory.

I can get real political but that's on the FCC. If you know anything about the FCC, you'll know that FCC head during the last administration was probably one of the most hated men ever. Fucker sucked big telecom's cock every chance he got. Nothing was done about robo calls because no one made telecoms do anything. Will be interesting to see if this admin forces telco to own their shit or continue to be disappointing and suck big business cock. 

This FTC right to repair change of direction gives me hope.

[XYZ 2154]

You are right. I mixed up FTC and FCC.

[XYZ 2154]

Still, tech giants like Apple or Microsoft don’t budge unless you kneecap them, and we are not going to do that.

[hullabelew 3724]

FTC, FCC, whatever it takes.  

 

[crash_davis 23115]

6 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Still, tech giants like Apple or Microsoft don’t budge unless you kneecap them, and we are not going to do that.

Europe and other countries are wising up to the bullshit. They are passing right to repair legislation. So the momentum seems to be changing and pressure is being put on companies to quit using repair as high margin revenue business.

You are right though. As I stated in the OP, I wonder how this will look in practice. For example, will Apple break the digital code between the $20 camera and motherboard? Will John Deere suddenly open their OS to allow parts to be changed outside of a certified service center? Who knows but this is the first step in the right direction.

Edited July 23, 2021 by crash_davis

[TwiceHorn 31534]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

If by rational you mean finally stop fucking over consumers because big business bought congressmen, than I completely agree with you.

Here's my apple story.

My kid's Iphone 6 had shittastic gps issues. Took it to Apple, resets phone. Still an issue. Sorry nothing else we can do, you have to buy a new phone. Yea fuck that. Went home, googled IPhone 6 GPS issue.

It was a common issue about the antenna breaking. The fix was a $9 part from Amazon and 20 mins to disassemble the Iphone. Apple knew this was an issue but leveraged it to sell more Iphones. I changed out 2 other Iphones which had this same issue. Apple has made it damned near impossible to fix their products. You can't even replace the camera lens housing on the new IPhones. Apple digitally tied it to the motherboard so that only Apple can replace it at whatever cost they decide to charge. It's a fucking camera lens which costs $20. Louis Rossman has a youtube channel with 1.6M subscribers basically fixing Macs that Apple lied to consumers about being able to fix. He details all the things Apple is doing to fuck over consumers to sell more shit and improve their revenue at the expense of consumers.

John Deere's bullshit is well documented on the internet. Farmers are having to install hacked Russian OS to be able to fix their tractors. 

How the fuck did we get here?

Actually, the mfrs have yet to "buy off" anyone.  I think they're currently trying to buy off whomever they can to maintain the status quo.

They are taking advantage of the anti-circumvention provisions of DMCA relating to movies and music, which have legitimate copying issues, and leveraging it into system software for cars, tractors, and other devices that have become utterly dependent on software to operate.

To the extent that they go beyond "anti-circumvention" provisions of existing law, there are antitrust concerns (tying arrangements and impermissible vertical integration between service and manufacture) that have yet to be tested, as far as I know.  They have decent business justifications for their practices, but whether they'll pass muster remains to be seen.

All the FTC can do here is commit to monitoring the situation, suing when they can, and developing guidelines for what practices are permissible and not permissible.  This is going to be up to the courts first, and then Congress.

[crash_davis 23115]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, the mfrs have yet to "buy off" anyone.  I think they're currently trying to buy off whomever they can to maintain the status quo.

They are taking advantage of the anti-circumvention provisions of DMCA relating to movies and music, which have legitimate copying issues, and leveraging it into system software for cars, tractors, and other devices that have become utterly dependent on software to operate.

To the extent that they go beyond "anti-circumvention" provisions of existing law, there are antitrust concerns (tying arrangements and impermissible vertical integration between service and manufacture) that have yet to be tested, as far as I know.  They have decent business justifications for their practices, but whether they'll pass muster remains to be seen.

All the FTC can do here is commit to monitoring the situation, suing when they can, and developing guidelines for what practices are permissible and not permissible.  This is going to be up to the courts first, and then Congress.

Thanks for the clarification. 

As to the bolded, we'll see if the below even gets to a vote and then see who votes no. If it doesn't die on the floor and actually gets to a vote, my expectations is the vote will go along party lines with a few members from each crossing over. Those voting No won't be doing it because they hate consumers. They will be doing it because they were bought. And if it doesn't get to a vote, then you know the boughts killed the bill.

 

https://www.ifixit.com/News/50808/the-right-to-repair-fight-comes-to-congress

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

No company has a more exaggerated bang-to-hype ratio than Apple. I am constantly amazed at how its customers get in line to be abused by it.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

5 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

No company has a more exaggerated bang-to-hype ratio than Apple. I am constantly amazed at how its customers get in line to be abused by it.

Yeah that Tim Apple guy, what a loser.  Just fleeces everybody like a dog.  

[TwiceHorn 31534]

46 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

No company has a more exaggerated bang-to-hype ratio than Apple. I am constantly amazed at how its customers get in line to be abused by it.

I'm pretty agnostic about Apple.  I used Windows forever and switched just to take advantage of their momentary superiority in "ultrabooks" or "thin and light" laptops, that doesn't really exist anymore.

 

I will say this, I have a lot less trouble with my Mac, and my Chromebook, than people have with their windows machines.  They do tend to just work.  The geek in me also likes POSIX OS'es, although I make little use of their power.

I did get "fucked" by their modular construction once when I had liquid damage and the repair constituted lower case replacement at 9/10 the cost of the machine.  They also did me real right with a keyboard problem outside warranty.

Edited July 23, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Bevo 13598]

4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

It's a fucking camera lens which costs $20.

$1.00.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Bevo

[crash_davis 23115]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

$1.00

Apple's prices should you crack your camera lens. I didn't see any pricing for camera module replacement. The camera module replacement must be done by authorized service. All margin for them. This is why right to repair needs to happen. 

It's a somewhat easy low cost fix otherwise. 

 

Out-of-warranty prices apply only to repairs made by Apple. Apple Authorized Service Providers may set their own prices. 

iPhone 12	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 12 Pro Max	$ 599
iPhone 12 Pro	$ 549
iPhone 12	$ 449
iPhone 12 mini	$ 399

[crash_davis 23115]

lulz. this pricing serves to push one thing, new Iphone sales. the repairs for the iphone 6 through X are more than the value of the phones. although no one in his right mind should be using apple care to repair those phones. apple started really locking down the internals of the phones with 11 and 12. 

https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service#otherrepairs

Other iPhone repair costs in the United States

Out-of-warranty prices apply only to repairs made by Apple. Apple Authorized Service Providers may set their own prices. 

iPhone 12	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 12 Pro Max	$ 599
iPhone 12 Pro	$ 549
iPhone 12	$ 449
iPhone 12 mini	$ 399

iPhone 11	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 11 Pro Max	$ 599
iPhone 11 Pro	$ 549
iPhone 11	$ 399

iPhone X	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone XS Max	$ 599
iPhone XS	$ 549
iPhone X	$ 549
iPhone XR	$ 399

iPhone 8	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 8 Plus	$ 399
iPhone 8	$ 349

iPhone 7	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 7 Plus	$ 349
iPhone 7	$ 319

iPhone 6	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 6s Plus	$ 329
iPhone 6s	$ 299
iPhone 6 Plus	$ 329
iPhone 6	$ 299

iPhone SE	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone SE (2nd generation)	$ 269
iPhone SE	$ 269

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Serious question. what is the counter-argument from the anti-right to repair (e.g. the OEM's)?

I am trying to think through the logic; outside of the money and profit centers for warranty/repair and planned obsolescence  and upsells what is the thinking?

For example, is John Deere saying that we don't want unlicensed and scammy people ripping off our customers by pretending they know anything about the trade secret/state of the art awesomeness that makes John Deere the trusted and loved brand that farmers think of when they think awesome farming? Is it essentially a branding and VOC issue with how they will be associated?

[Bevo 13598]

37 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Apple's prices should you crack your camera lens. I didn't see any pricing for camera module replacement. The camera module replacement must be done by authorized service. All margin for them. This is why right to repair needs to happen. 

It's a somewhat easy low cost fix otherwise. 

 

Out-of-warranty prices apply only to repairs made by Apple. Apple Authorized Service Providers may set their own prices. 

iPhone 12	Other damage (out of warranty)
iPhone 12 Pro Max	$ 599
iPhone 12 Pro	$ 549
iPhone 12	$ 449
iPhone 12 mini	$ 399

Sorry, we are talking about two different things. The cost to manufacture a phone camera lens is $1.00. There was a company that was putting a large number of phone lenses into a camera that could get high definition pictures, macro and telephoto. In their releases, they stated that camera lenses cost $1.00 to manufacture.

[crash_davis 23115]

Apple doesn't really know other than the longer older phones stay in operation, the fewer new Iphone sales.

https://onezero.medium.com/documents-reveal-apples-struggle-to-define-its-stance-on-right-to-repair-15a757103261

 

[crash_davis 23115]

7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Sorry, we are talking about two different things. The cost to manufacture a phone camera lens is $1.00. There was a company that was putting a large number of phone lenses into a camera that could get high definition pictures, macro and telephoto. In their releases, they stated that camera lenses cost $1.00 to manufacture.

I wasn't trying to argue that. So in the end, the part costs Apple $3. Compare to what Apple is charging just shows their perverse desire is to fucking over consumers, especially considering that they locked down the camera module so that only authorized Apple techs can change it. It costs them a few bucks for the part and charge $399+ to replace it. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by crash_davis

[TwiceHorn 31534]

29 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Serious question. what is the counter-argument from the anti-right to repair (e.g. the OEM's)?

I am trying to think through the logic; outside of the money and profit centers for warranty/repair and planned obsolescence  and upsells what is the thinking?

For example, is John Deere saying that we don't want unlicensed and scammy people ripping off our customers by pretending they know anything about the trade secret/state of the art awesomeness that makes John Deere the trusted and loved brand that farmers think of when they think awesome farming? Is it essentially a branding and VOC issue with how they will be associated?

Yes.  The main counterarguments are product integrity/warranty/safety.

To use an Apple MacBook Air as an example:  to make it as thin as it is, they relied on a lot of soldered connections and closely stacked parts that make it effectively not user serviceable.  Soldering isn't that hard, but keeping the heat from delicate components 1/8" to 1/2" away from the connection is tricky, even for "certified" techs.  So Apple tends to have parts grouped into multi-function modules and any repair that doesn't replace the entire module voids the warranty and potentially may cause other problems with the computer if out of warranty, leading to further consumer dissatisfaction.  You may only need a keyboard, but that is part of the lower (or upper) case module, which includes a lot of other shit, including the processor and motherboard. That, plus generous markups, explains the pricey out of warranty repairs shown above.

On the vehicles, they "lock out" or attempt to lock out non-authorized technicians from access to the "system" software that controls every goddamn thing.  They argue that they can't have nabobs tinkering around in there and fucking up their warez and hardware causing quality and safety issues, etc.  They could stop at just voiding the warranty, as they often do for "tunes" that can be detected (many can't or can be undone).  I don't think many would argue with that, but they do it "permanently" so as to mostly lock-in customers to mfr. authorized services for the life of the vehicle.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[DonkeyCigars 143]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes.  The main counterarguments are product integrity/warranty/safety.

I think that makes sense, but I also think out of this will arise a cottage industry of authorized/tier1/platinum organizations who are credentialed and certified to work on certain products and probably be acquired by the parent company or a product portfolio company. It's just services business, no different than consulting and advisory services just with a mechanical flavor versus ethereal knowledge work.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think that makes sense, but I also think out of this will arise a cottage industry of authorized/tier1/platinum organizations who are credentialed and certified to work on certain products and probably be acquired by the parent company or a product portfolio company. It's just services business, no different than consulting and advisory services just with a mechanical flavor versus ethereal knowledge work.

This is where the antitrust shit comes in.  Like krautwagens, there could be a cottage industry of certified mechanics/technicians.  But the OEM won't give them the necessary codes and tools to permit them to compete with "dealer service."  That may be unlawful.  As might be acquiring such service shops and changing their pricing structure to that of dealers, etc.

[crash_davis 23115]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is where the antitrust shit comes in.  Like krautwagens, there could be a cottage industry of certified mechanics/technicians.  But the OEM won't give them the necessary codes and tools to permit them to compete with "dealer service."  That may be unlawful.  As might be acquiring such service shops and changing their pricing structure to that of dealers, etc.

or sue so that OEMs don't digitally lock down non core hardware.

no reason you should have to go to apple to change antennas, battery, camera lenses, lightning connectors and shit like that. apple wants to lock down the motherboard, sure go right ahead. but the other $50-30 components, gtfo. 

[midtown 3348]

Lol at everyone just figuring how shitty apple is

[TwiceHorn 31534]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

or sue so that OEMs don't digitally lock down non core hardware.

no reason you should have to go to apple to change antennas, battery, camera lenses, lightning connectors and shit like that. apple wants to lock down the motherboard, sure go right ahead. but the other $50-30 components, gtfo. 

Well, without a new law, there's nothing illegal about locking down your shit.  In fact, the anti-circumvention provisions of DMCA implicitly make it legal where software is concerned.  And because software intrudes on every damn thing nowadays, it's close to impossible to find many/any components that don't include software and some interface with the system software.

And I think the issue is legally going to boil down to "locking down is fine, but you have to give access to at least some people, consistent with your business objectives."  Locking down and giving no access to anyone but employees, basically, is what's going to be unlawful.

[crash_davis 23115]

5 minutes ago, midtown said:

Lol at everyone just figuring how shitty apple is

most sane people have known. i'm just picking on apple because they happen to be one of the biggest assholes in this department. them and john deere are fighting over who's the biggest asshole. also their examples of anti consumer behaviors are well documented.

problem is they are encouraging other oems to follow because they see the huge revenue and high margins to be gained from locking down hardware. you think oems don't also see apple's billion dollar dongle business and think they too should limit ports to get some of that fuck you money?

shit needs to stop. this is a first step.

[Brisketexan 105307]

This is a continuation of how car companies, for example, made "parts" large, expensive all-in-one components instead of their individual pieces.  E.g., 20 years ago, had a plastic lens on a tail light get busted.  I could easily remove and replace it with a small phillips head screwdriver.  Cost-wise, it was a part that cost literally pennies.  Could you buy that lens?  Nope.  Had to buy an ENTIRE tail light assembly for $140.

Fuck that.  I went to a junkyard, and found a tail light assembly (for a different color car -- they were color keyed).  I think it was $40.  Went outside, took the lens off, replaced my lens, took the remainder of the tail light assembly back in and gave it back to the junk yard and told em "now you can sell it again." 

Oh, and we are an Apple product family, but we also use non-authorized service to repair anything that goes wrong.  F the warranty, it's a lot cheaper to bust it.

[crash_davis 23115]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, and we are an Apple product family, but we also use non-authorized service to repair anything that goes wrong.  F the warranty, it's a lot cheaper to bust it.

If/when Apple has their way, there will not be any non-authorized centers servicing any Apple products. They are trying hard as fuck to get to that model yesterday.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This is a continuation of how car companies, for example, made "parts" large, expensive all-in-one components instead of their individual pieces.  E.g., 20 years ago, had a plastic lens on a tail light get busted.  I could easily remove and replace it with a small phillips head screwdriver.  Cost-wise, it was a part that cost literally pennies.  Could you buy that lens?  Nope.  Had to buy an ENTIRE tail light assembly for $140.

Fuck that.  I went to a junkyard, and found a tail light assembly (for a different color car -- they were color keyed).  I think it was $40.  Went outside, took the lens off, replaced my lens, took the remainder of the tail light assembly back in and gave it back to the junk yard and told em "now you can sell it again." 

Oh, and we are an Apple product family, but we also use non-authorized service to repair anything that goes wrong.  F the warranty, it's a lot cheaper to bust it.

Most of the car assembly shit, like headlight assemblies, is virtually mandated by engineering.  And the engineering is mandated by demand for HID headlights that turn with the car and follow terrain, etc.  And CAFE, etc.

It sucks a big hairy dong, but it's twue, it's twue.

Auto manufacturers have done some somewhat underhanded shit to stifle the non-OEM part supply.  Design patents.  Laws against using non-OEM parts.  Ominous warnings from insurance companies about non-OEM parts.

Edited July 23, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[crash_davis 23115]

14 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, without a new law, there's nothing illegal about locking down your shit.  In fact, the anti-circumvention provisions of DMCA implicitly make it legal where software is concerned.  And because software intrudes on every damn thing nowadays, it's close to impossible to find many/any components that don't include software and some interface with the system software.

And I think the issue is legally going to boil down to "locking down is fine, but you have to give access to at least some people, consistent with your business objectives."  Locking down and giving no access to anyone but employees, basically, is what's going to be unlawful.

Again, it comes down to why do you need to digitally lock that camera lens module? Why do you need to lock down batteries? The hardware itself isn't locked. It's the interface from the hardware to the motherboard that is locks shit down. The interface prob verifies some unique serial number type thing in the hardware. If the hardware doesn't display the "correct" serial number, the motherboard gimps operations to that piece of hardware.

Now ask yourself what's special about the camera lens? All of the magic of the photos comes with the post image processing. This is same with Google Pixels. Google has not locked down their lens because they're not assholes yet, in this specific instance anyway. The only reason why Apple locks it down is for revenue. So yes there's code involved in the module but not the hardware (lens) itself. Lawsuits should force Apple to prove why they need to lock down certain hardware and make it impossible to repair.

[Brisketexan 105307]

17 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

If/when Apple has their way, there will not be any non-authorized centers servicing any Apple products. They are trying hard as fuck to get to that model yesterday.

Ain't nuthin' that can't be hacked.

I've used this analogy with respect to the War on Drugs, but it applies to people fixing their own shit, too: if they made jacking off a crime tomorrow, all they'd do is turn every man into the world a criminal.  It would reduce the frequency of yanking the crank by 0.0%.

Apple can make hacking their phone to repair it a super-duper ultra crime.  But as long as it's materially cheaper for me to get my phone fixed by Harry the Hacker than by the Genius Bar dipshits, to Harry the Hacker I'll go.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

50 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think that makes sense, but I also think out of this will arise a cottage industry of authorized/tier1/platinum organizations who are credentialed and certified to work on certain products and probably be acquired by the parent company or a product portfolio company. It's just services business, no different than consulting and advisory services just with a mechanical flavor versus ethereal knowledge work.

The issue particularly with farm equipment is it’s expensive, and when you need it to work to get your crop harvested in a 2 day window before the next storm hits you can’t afford to be held at the mercy of the local JD technician.  To oversimplify, you can easily buy an OBD reader to get codes off your car to at least narrow down what is wrong.  With a JD you cannot do that, it’s proprietary and you’ll void your warranty if you try to hack it.  Plus they signed a Right to Repair agreement in 2018 to fix this issue and have since backed out of it.

[elfenix 34332]

this has been on the pods a lot lately:

https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/the-right-to-repair-broken-tech-is-key-to-farmers/

 

https://www.marketplace.org/shows/make-me-smart-with-kai-and-molly/right-to-repair-is-about-more-than-diy/

[hornbri 1401]

34 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

If/when Apple has their way, there will not be any non-authorized centers servicing any Apple products. They are trying hard as fuck to get to that model yesterday.

Your hate is strong, but this part is not true. They have a process for non-authorized companies to get parts and manuals. 

https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/29/apple-expanding-independent-repair-provider-program-to-over-200-new-countries/

[atomheartbevo 89787]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Serious question. what is the counter-argument from the anti-right to repair (e.g. the OEM's)?

I am trying to think through the logic; outside of the money and profit centers for warranty/repair and planned obsolescence  and upsells what is the thinking?

@TwiceHorn nailed most of it.  In John Deere's case, there's far less of an argument than Apple, simply because we are talking about huge pieces of equipment where space is not a premium.

In Apple's case, it's driven in large part by this lust to make the thinnest phones and laptops they can make, with the most battery cells they can cram in them.  That leads to everything being soldered and the layers being glued together (screws, sockets, etc.. take up extra space).  

I've replaced quite a few iPhone screens for friends and family members over the years (I've got a bitchin' set of tools and years of experience working on electronics) and I'm not futzing with anything made in the past few generations. It's still doable (mostly), but it gets dicey with some things.

It's been the case (no pun intended) for quite a while.  I do have friends who have worked at Apple stores as geniuses, or at their repair/refurb centers, and while profitability is certainly a major issue, Apple just does not make their devices with an eye to repairability, they make them to be as thin and light as possibility, and to dissipate heat well (on the laptop side).  That means soldering/gluing everything they can.  

And it's not just Apple.  My favorite PC laptops are ThinkPads, and my favorite series, the X series, has went from The One True Laptop, the ThinkPad X220, where I could replace every component from the fan to the display, and where I could easily swap keyboards, batteries, memory, storage, etc., to today's X-series where you can't even upgrade the memory, and users are down to only replacing the storage.

Yeah, Apple does go for profitability, but they are also giving the masses what they want - thin and light, and with AppleCare options where the masses don't give a shit about repair, they just want to be able to take their broken iPhone into an Apple Store and get a new one within an hour or two.

And hell, some Android manufactures make Android phones that can be repaired/upgraded, but theres' a reason why the masses will still prefer a thing and light Samsung Android over a slightly larger one that can be repaired easily.

[Pescado_Rojo 19428]

2 hours ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

The issue particularly with farm equipment is it’s expensive, and when you need it to work to get your crop harvested in a 2 day window before the next storm hits you can’t afford to be held at the mercy of the local JD technician.  To oversimplify, you can easily buy an OBD reader to get codes off your car to at least narrow down what is wrong.  With a JD you cannot do that, it’s proprietary and you’ll void your warranty if you try to hack it.  Plus they signed a Right to Repair agreement in 2018 to fix this issue and have since backed out of it.

For a while there in the 2000s, my wife's grandfather made damn good money buying and flipping older John Deere commercial farming equipment. 8 wheel tractors, combines, etc. He'd hit all the farm and ranch auctions in the panhandle and buy every one he could get his hands on, then either flip it if he knew someone that wanted one, or park it behind one of his barns and part it out over time. Seemed like it was still going strong when he got too old to mess with it. When he died, they sold everything he had left to another broker for well into 6 figures. 

[TwiceHorn 31534]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Again, it comes down to why do you need to digitally lock that camera lens module? Why do you need to lock down batteries? The hardware itself isn't locked. It's the interface from the hardware to the motherboard that is locks shit down. The interface prob verifies some unique serial number type thing in the hardware. If the hardware doesn't display the "correct" serial number, the motherboard gimps operations to that piece of hardware.

Now ask yourself what's special about the camera lens? All of the magic of the photos comes with the post image processing. This is same with Google Pixels. Google has not locked down their lens because they're not assholes yet, in this specific instance anyway. The only reason why Apple locks it down is for revenue. So yes there's code involved in the module but not the hardware (lens) itself. Lawsuits should force Apple to prove why they need to lock down certain hardware and make it impossible to repair.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending it.  It's just what they're going to say.  There will be a tiny kernel of truth to it and a lot of intention to squash competition in the repair market and drive the sale of new phones.

But you know they're going to come up with some shiz like the lens is special and if it isn't the proper lens or properly installed, then autofocus and this that and the other feature won't work right and Apple's famous for great photos that a chimp can take and blah blah blah.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

For a while there in the 2000s, my wife's grandfather made damn good money buying and flipping older John Deere commercial farming equipment. 8 wheel tractors, combines, etc. He'd hit all the farm and ranch auctions in the panhandle and buy every one he could get his hands on, then either flip it if he knew someone that wanted one, or park it behind one of his barns and part it out over time. Seemed like it was still going strong when he got too old to mess with it. When he died, they sold everything he had left to another broker for well into 6 figures. 

My ranch tractor is a 2003 Mahindra 4wd with a loader.  Part of the reason I bought it is, short of rebuilding the engine or transmission, I can do almost all the work myself. I think I paid 23k for it new, and could sell it for between $13k-$15k now.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Judge Roybeanbag

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

6 hours ago, crash_davis said:

most sane people have known. i'm just picking on apple because they happen to be one of the biggest assholes in this department. them and john deere are fighting over who's the biggest asshole. also their examples of anti consumer behaviors are well documented.

problem is they are encouraging other oems to follow because they see the huge revenue and high margins to be gained from locking down hardware. you think oems don't also see apple's billion dollar dongle business and think they too should limit ports to get some of that fuck you money?

shit needs to stop. this is a first step.

These are the same people that have been screaming about Big Pharma conspiracies for three decades now demanding everyone get monthly covid boosters and that no one should ever use hydroxychloroquine or ivermecin ... we are now dominated by people whose favorite show is "Ow My Balls."

[CooterBrown 18027]

Europe and other countries are wising up to the bullshit. They are passing right to repair legislation. So the momentum seems to be changing and pressure is being put on companies to quit using repair as high margin revenue business.

One thing the EU was looking at was standardizing the power supply connectors. No more brand/device specific chargers. One charger for every phone and tablet.

This would make life so much easier.

[High Plains Drifter 11052]

42 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

 

One thing the EU was looking at was standardizing the power supply connectors. No more brand/device specific chargers. One charger for every phone and tablet.

This would make life so much easier.

 

 

Be careful what you wish for. I have an android phone, both my wife and daughter have iphones. They constantly fight over and lose each other's chargers. Between them, they go through probably a charger a week.

I am still rocking the original charger that came with my phone. Because they never touch it, because it is useless to them.

If all three of our phones used the same charger, my life would be a constant battle of "where's my charger?" in addition to "where's the remote? where's the flashlight I keep under the kitchen sink? where's the scissors I keep in the kitchen drawer? etc etc etc."

 

[Upgrayedd 5818]

15 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Be careful what you wish for. I have an android phone, both my wife and daughter have iphones. They constantly fight over and lose each other's chargers. Between them, they go through probably a charger a week.

I am still rocking the original charger that came with my phone. Because they never touch it, because it is useless to them.

If all three of our phones used the same charger, my life would be a constant battle of "where's my charger?" in addition to "where's the remote? where's the flashlight I keep under the kitchen sink? where's the scissors I keep in the kitchen drawer? etc etc etc."

 

You know where your Dremel is?

[lmao 178]

If anyone cares Louis Rossman, a guy who owns an Apple repair shop in NYC, has great content on his popular YT channel about right to repair.

 

[Cajun 11722]

Quote

Wu added that Right to Repair has become a "visceral example" of the enormous imbalance between workers, consumers, small businesses, and larger entities.

Carpet pissers did this?