The Last Duel - Ridley Scott, 14th Century France, Co-Written by and Starring Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, plus Adam Driver, Jodie Comer (Oct 15)

[Knoxtnhorn 6061]

@956 Worldwide

Well said.  And you described my knowledge of the Hundred Years War to a t.  I was constantly looking up battles and historical figures throughout the movie.

[52-80 19188]

the hundred years war lasted 116 years.  the fucking sandbagging historians

[CooterBrown 18015]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The battlefield scenes took some more liberties, but it's worth remembering that not all of the combatants would have been in full plate, especially the dudes that are getting ridden down by mounted knights. 

IIRC, armor was expensive and was mostly worn by knights and noblemen.  The average foot soldier would have some leather "armor" and if they were lucky, some chain mail.

 

[Sam Lin 3559]

I honestly gave no shits about the historical context. We live in an age where there are epic hand to hand battles at Waffle House, so I had no problem believing he had to go off and fight.

[kevwun 15806]

42 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

IIRC, armor was expensive and was mostly worn by knights and noblemen.  The average foot soldier would have some leather "armor" and if they were lucky, some chain mail.

 

And most of them were there to be slaughtered by knights and men at arms.  It's why the English has so much success with the longbow when they started using it en masse.  It was the first time in the Middle Ages that the common folk were serious threats on the battlefield.  Mounted knights were rather useless against a massed group of archers.  They would aim for the horses and then turn the knights in to pin cushions once they were on foot.  They also would gang up on one knight and use their agility advantage to get them on their backs and club them with war hammers or stab in between the joints of their armor.

Edited January 19, 2022 by kevwun

[Nuge 1970]

I watched it last night and thought it was pretty great.  However, Ben Affleck still seemed like Ben Affleck to me.

Adam Driver and Jodie Comer were phenomenal. Matt Damon was excellent as well but the other two were a step above.

I really enjoyed the structure of the movie and seeing the nuance of perspective.

Highly recommended.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

4 hours ago, kevwun said:

And most of them were there to be slaughtered by knights and men at arms.  It's why the English has so much success with the longbow when they started using it en masse.  It was the first time in the Middle Ages that the common folk were serious threats on the battlefield.  Mounted knights were rather useless against a massed group of archers.  They would aim for the horses and then turn the knights in to pin cushions once they were on foot.  They also would gang up on one knight and use their agility advantage to get them on their backs and club them with war hammers or stab in between the joints of their armor.

This only goes so far, though. The French did end up winning the Hundred Years War, including some significant wins over English archers with heavy cavalry charges.  In the East, too, the Hungarians learned that heavily armored knights and castles were the way to get around the Mongol horse archer final boss.  European armor continued to trend heavier and more complete through the high Gothic and into the Renaissance and was displaced because of gunpowder driven projectiles. They weren’t fools banging their heads against a broken idea, European arms and tactics was one of the few areas Europe was ahead of the curve in.  
 

There’s lots of exceptions but in general, until gunpowder comes around the side with the most armored knights and men at arms was the odds on favorite, and losses usually involved a mistake of tactics and use of terrain and other factors beyond being out fought by lighter or more innovative opponents. 

[kevwun 15806]

The French did win eventually, but they also had help from some shitty English kings and homefield advantage.  It was really hard to support an army across the channel and it got that much harder each time they lost territory to the French.

[BabaYaga 15301]

4 hours ago, kevwun said:

It's why the English has so much success with the longbow when they started using it en masse.  It was the first time in the Middle Ages that the common folk were serious threats on the battlefield. 

English longbowmen were extremely well skilled and were a specialty soldier.  I think you might be referring to the crossbow.  This was a point/shoot weapon, with bodkin tips, could penetrate plate armor and took very little skill to use.  

[BabaYaga 15301]

52 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In the East, too, the Hungarians learned that heavily armored knights and castles were the way to get around the Mongol horse archer final boss.

The only thing that stopped the Mongols were the Mongols.  They faced heavily armored European knights on more than once occasion and the results were the same:  wholesale slaughter and absolute victory.  Battle of Legnica being a good example.  Or the battle of Tursko.  Further, this wasn't a "full" Mongol army, but rather a large scouting party casing Europe for invasion under the command of Subutai.

Nor were Western battle works, castles, and ramparts in the West more superior to what China had.  The Mongols dispatched these easily, utilizing mainly captured siege-works and engineers....something they were quite adept at.  

[BabaYaga 15301]

1 hour ago, Nuge said:

I watched it last night and thought it was pretty great.  However, Ben Affleck still seemed like Ben Affleck to me.

Adam Driver and Jodie Comer were phenomenal. Matt Damon was excellent as well but the other two were a step above.

I really enjoyed the structure of the movie and seeing the nuance of perspective.

Highly recommended.

Agreed.  Watched last night.  I did like how the fight scenes illustrated that movement on foot in full plate was not the clunky, laborious process many assumed it was.  As mentioned earlier, it was quite advanced and facilitated quick movement that was critical for success of a knight in battle.  

[956 Worldwide 34728]

31 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

The only thing that stopped the Mongols were the Mongols.  They faced heavily armored European knights on more than once occasion and the results were the same:  wholesale slaughter and absolute victory.  Battle of Legnica being a good example.  Or the battle of Tursko.  Further, this wasn't a "full" Mongol army, but rather a large scouting party casing Europe for invasion under the command of Subutai.

Nor were Western battle works, castles, and ramparts in the West more superior to what China had.  The Mongols dispatched these easily, utilizing mainly captured siege-works and engineers....something they were quite adept at.  

The Mongols kicked the Hungarian’s ass at Mohi, but that was a force of mostly light Hungarian cavalry. The few Knights Templars fared well.  The Mongols also failed to capture the citadel at Esztergom but had no issues with the earth and wood fortifications most Hungarian settlements used.

The Hungarians took notice of this and embarked on a massive building project of castles across what is now western Hungary, Slovakia, and Transylvania. When the Mongols invaded again in the late 13th century with an army larger than the Hungarians could pull together, the Mongols failed to capture any citadels, the Hungarians resorted to castle-based siege warfare, and routed the Mongol cavalry in several battles by putting more knights in the field. The second invasion was an utter failure and the Poles copied the strategy to ward off the third Mongol invasion. 
 

Early 12th century warfare with the Mongols in Poland and Central Eastern Europe led to the creation of a castle and armored knight/ man at arms culture in that part of Europe. To this day it’s one of the most “castle dense” patches of dirt, and nearly all of them were a response to the Mongols— because that’s what worked. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34728]

The other thing about castle warfare and the Mongols— the Hungarians built a system of well-chosen defensive strongholds. They weren’t flung up randomly, and in most places, even today, you can often see one or two castle ruins once you climb to the top of a tower.  An invading army- Mongol or otherwise-  was confronted with hundreds of well-built, well-watered citadels, each with a its own small garrison. China had some magnificent fortified cities but nothing approaching this type of fortified network. 
 

So what can the invading army do? It can settle in for a real siege with engines and engineering, going one by one.  This is impractical, and as you’re doing it, you are camped in forested Europe without fodder for your animals. The neighboring castles are occasionally sallying out to harass your camp.  And once you finished, you move a few miles down the road and start again. You are not going to successfully do this in the short European campaign season. 

You can leave behind small siege parties to keep each garrison inside the walls but not do a true assault.  With hundreds of fortifications, soon you run out of army. Not an option. 
 

Or you can bypass them entirely for the most part and become basically a raiding force. Maybe you hope you find the one castle where the king is hiding and siege that one in hopes of terms. Your opponents, sheltering in place and constantly harassing you, will eventually get the better of you. And this is what happened when the Mongols launched their second invasion.

[BabaYaga 15301]

The European fortification systems paled to what the Chinese had.  Fortresses with hundreds of battlement towers.  Moats often as wide as 30+ meters.  Higher and thicker walls.  Concentric ramparts and battlements to support one another.  All breached. 

Then you have the Khwarazmian Empire sieges and complete destruction of their armies.  

It's true they often simply bypassed fortifications that didn't need sacking.  But at the sack of Klis, finding out Bela wasn't there was the why it was broken off, not that it was insurmountable.  They had among their ranks some of the premier siege craft minds & engineers of the day from China.  If you look at their actions, they didn't seem want to really engage in sieges on the East side of the Danube.  Once on the Western side, they acted very different.  

You can also argue that the subsequent invasions were not stopped via castles, but rather the Danube.  In the following invasions the river was defended bitterly.  Then you also have the death of Ogedai at that same time, meaning all the armies had to leave as a new Khan was being chosen.  Thereafter, the outbreak of civil war in the 1260s between Berke Khan and Hulegu Khan, prompted by the former's conversion to Islam, and the latter's sack of Baghdad and conquest of the Abbasid Caliphate, signaled the end of Mongol unity. In turn this meant that major campaigns on the scale necessary to subjugate Europe were not really practical.

And knights?  At the battle of Legnica Polish and German knights were routed.  These included Teutonic knights and Templars.  Their armor didn't help them, as Mongol arrows with piercing tips were able to breach the plate as they peppered the knights ranks.  It also has to be remembered that this was a Mongol raiding/scouting party or maybe 20K men.  Not a full blown army.    

[Js1 85439]

[956 Worldwide 34728]

Will nerd out just a bit more.  Important to note that the Mongol Conquest of China took 70 years, that the Mongols DID get bogged down for months and years in sieges and that the Mongols had to enlist more Chinese infantry than actual Mongol mounted warriors to accomplish it. China was right next door, and the Mongols advanced piecemeal, gaining allies and putting local populations to work for them.  This was not an option in Christian Europe, where peasants just decamped to friendlier climes and where there were no huge cities to capture or have handed over and use as your base. 
 

If you figure that the maximum amount of actual mounted warriors the Mongols can put in the field is 200,000 (probably close to correct), that 20-30K “raiding party” is more like a field army. Unlike their campaigns in Central Asia and the Middle East, the Mongols can’t invade across Russia and Ukraine with infantry and a baggage train, the logistics don’t work in the 13th century even more than they didn’t work for Napoleon in the 19th, going the other way. The Mongols also have to secure their rear and south, where they are just beginning to subdue and exploit the local populace. 
 

It’s a neat counterfactual to imagine the entire Mongol combined military force aimed at Europe— but they didn’t have that kind of power projection.  They were reliant on mounted archers and a few specialists, and extreme mobility to project that far— which is exactly the type of force that can’t crack hard fortifications. In particular when you remember that the surrounding fortifications were also counteroffensive in nature and close to each other (unlike in China or Central Asia).
 

The existing network of castles and hard points west of the Danube was created as a defense in depth strategy over centuries to counter mounted steppe warriors (which the Hungarians had been) and which the Hungarians adopted themselves to great effect after their first ass-beating at the hands of the Mongols. The Mongols never cracked a European castle on either side of the Danube following mid 13th century military reforms and constructions.  
 

On the Polish encounters— you have to differentiate between “knights in an army” and “an army of knights.”  At most, the Poles and later Hungarians had a few hundred fully armored, trained knights in an army of maybe 25,000.  In Poland, a huge chunk of the force was enlisted peasants and Bavarian miners with their repurposed tools.

The response that European leaders correctly engineered was not that knights and castles were useless against Mongols.  They concluded that they badly needed more of both. 

[52-80 19188]

ridley scott is a bosss

[NeverMarryAStripper 21908]

Now I’m confused.  I haven’t seen the movie and didn’t realize that there were mongol hordes in it.

[52-80 19188]

12 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

It also has to be remembered that this was a Mongol raiding/scouting party or maybe 20K men.  Not a full blown army.    

Yeap.  This was a venture of one of the Nephew Khans.  By this time, Ghenghis had died and the empire was pushing simultaneously in different directions.  A while later Hungary they would see a similar calvary-derived force from the East and of course that was the Ottomans and they promptly pushed through Hungary and into central Europe...

[52-80 19188]

15 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Now I’m confused.  I haven’t seen the movie and didn’t realize that there were mongol hordes in it.

nobody expects the mongolian hordes.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Yeap.  This was a venture of one of the Nephew Khans.  By this time, Ghenghis had died and the empire was pushing simultaneously in different directions.  A while later Hungary they would see a similar calvary-derived force from the East and of course that was the Ottomans and they promptly pushed through Hungary and into central Europe...

You can’t compare the Mongols and the Ottomans 300 years apart from each other. In the first, the Ottomans were able to invade from their own country and base of operations in the Balkans.  They sent a genuine invading force.

In the second, the Ottomans invaded Hungary and won the battle of Mohacs with a more modern military force including muskets and 200 cannons. It was not a horde of mounted archers. By 1526, the musket armed janissary infantry were the core of the Ottoman military. 

[speed817 19396]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

ridley scott is a bosss

I guess you haven't seen prometheus or alien: covenant

[52-80 19188]

16 minutes ago, speed817 said:

I guess you haven't seen prometheus or alien: covenant

i actually enjoyed both of them.  harmless silly popcorn watch

[billfromlaketravis 11519]

18 hours ago, Nuge said:

I watched it last night and thought it was pretty great.  However, Ben Affleck still seemed like Ben Affleck to me.

Adam Driver and Jodie Comer were phenomenal. Matt Damon was excellent as well but the other two were a step above.

I really enjoyed the structure of the movie and seeing the nuance of perspective.

Highly recommended.

Affleck is always going to run into this problem when he's a movie with Matt Damon. People will invariably compare their performances, and Damon is a much better actor. He can do anything. Affleck is much more limited. 

Affleck plays a douche. He excels at playing a douche. He built the foundation of his career on douchery. School Ties, Dazed and Confused, and Mallrats. 

He's also excellent as a guy from Southie or Charlestown. Pretty good director as well.

I'd say Gone Girl is a one off and a fantastic performance. 

[52-80 19188]

6 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Affleck is always going to run into this problem when he's a movie with Matt Damon. People will invariably compare their performances, and Damon is a much better actor. He can do anything. Affleck is much more limited. 

Affleck plays a douche. He excels at playing a douche. He built the foundation of his career on douchery. School Ties, Dazed and Confused, and Mallrats. 

He's also excellent as a guy from Southie or Charlestown. Pretty good director as well.

I'd say Gone Girl is a one off and a fantastic performance. 

 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:32 AM, speed817 said:

Thought the movie was OK. Some of the dialogue reminded me of some shakespearean plays which made me chuckle at first.  Best part of the movie was Jodie Comer though.....

It's interesting, she's not completely blazing hot.  But is extraordinarily pleasant to look at.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's interesting, she's not completely blazing hot.  But is extraordinarily pleasant to look at.

She’d give any of us a heart attack if we actually had a chance in real life. 

[F250 28788]

This thread feels like the opening of Red Dawn.

 

[kingkoopa6 8371]

finally got to it.

that last duel was pretty bad ass...

both of them was going at it!

[kingkoopa6 8371]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:31 AM, achooloco said:

i'll watch anything with Comer. She just has something I dig.

[AUS-97HORN 11809]

On 1/20/2022 at 9:09 AM, speed817 said:

I guess you haven't seen prometheus 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2841]

I hate Matt Damon, so this was a great role for him.

Driver can play anything. A poet in Paterson to a redneck in Logan Lucky.

I think Affleck went under the radar and gave the best performance of the movie. He’s so good as a scum bag. It always pissed me that he went away from that, but hey, he earned it. He allegedly wrote Good Will Hunting with Damon so he could cast himself in a non-jerk role. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2841]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:07 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

Will nerd out just a bit more.  Important to note that the Mongol Conquest of China took 70 years, that the Mongols DID get bogged down for months and years in sieges and that the Mongols had to enlist more Chinese infantry than actual Mongol mounted warriors to accomplish it

         HEALY
           --There's this one kid, we call him Mongo
           on account of he's a mongoloid. He got out
           of his cage once and--

                        MARY
           --He's in a cage?! 

Edited April 26, 2022 by The Original Greaser Bob

[The Original Greaser Bob 2841]

I was glad I read some shitty reviews before hand (not here).  The vast majority were just pissed that they had to "sit through the same story three times". I actually really liked the way it was done and the last fight scene was great, although I wanted to see it end in a face crushing scene like (spoiler) the mexican DEA agent got in Game of Thrones.

[sidis 9832]

On 1/20/2022 at 9:46 AM, TwiceHorn said:

It's interesting, she's not completely blazing hot.  But is extraordinarily pleasant to look at.

she can make herself a blazer (see below)...but you're right, she's not the look of a typical instagram thirst trapper.  that's probably what makes her so appealing.  that, and her plump butt.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

On 1/20/2022 at 7:23 AM, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Now I’m confused.  I haven’t seen the movie and didn’t realize that there were mongol hordes in it.

 

post credit scenes