Explain to me what killed the SWC?

[Moby Ric 2058]

19 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

Texas was cheating, we were doing a terrible job of it. 

Correct on both counts. fify

Edited July 26, 2021 by Moby Ric

[Baconboy 135]

All anyone claiming Texas killed the SWC needs to know is Arkansas wanted Texas to join them in the move to the SEC in 1990, and so did the SEC. Anyone claiming Arkansas was trying to get away from evil UT doesn't know what they're talking about. 

[Valmy77 13094]

2 minutes ago, Baconboy said:

All anyone claiming Texas killed the SWC needs to know is Arkansas wanted Texas to join them in the move to the SEC in 1990, and so did the SEC. Anyone claiming Arkansas was trying to get away from evil UT doesn't know what they're talking about. 

The real narrative here is TV money and how it is constantly creating huge seismic shifts in College Sports. Trying to blame evil individuals, or schools, is insane.

[Baconboy 135]

8 minutes ago, GTX Horn said:

What led Arkansas to leave and go to the SEC? TV money?

Yes, Arkansas correctly saw that the SWC wasn't viable because of its small TV footprint and the strong presence of the NFL in Texas. UT saw it too, and UT officials even told Arkansas officials they needed to go first to provide cover for UT to make a move since politically UT couldn't be the school to blow up the conference.

The SEC's courtship of UT has been going on for over 30 years.

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

The Big 10 had 2 (Purdue and Northwestern)

Purdue isn’t a private school. They’re a public land-grant university.

Erit: I see that’s been covered. I’ll add that IUPUI is a shared campus of Indiana and Purdue in Indianapolis. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[Hate 20103]

34 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

I do recall asking a Houston sports fan why he didn't care at all about UH or Rice during the SWC days and his response was "well do people in Austin care about Huston Tillotson or Concordia Lutheran games?"

I mean nevermind the fact that neither school even had a football team, but that is a pretty damning comparison to what were supposed to be major conference big time athletic programs. I was also kind of impressed he had even heard of those two schools.

Wasn't UH at the time a 100% commuter school?  IIRC, they didn't even have dorms on campus at he time, kind of like UTSA for a long time. 

[bullet 1596]

2 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

Right. TV, but SMU and aggy started the ball rolling. They blame us because they were cheating their asses off and got caught. 

Cowboys and Oilers played a part, damaging the fan support of Rice, SMU and TCU.  There was about a 10 year period when aggy played their home games vs. Rice at Rice Stadium because they drew more fans there.

OU and Georgia suing and winning vs. the NCAA created the TV money problem.  SMU and aggy cheating.  All the probations lead recruits to leave the state.

[bullet 1596]

1 hour ago, KaiserSoze said:

I spent a year working on a SMU death penalty documentary (Pony Excess- the series finale of the original ESPN 30 for 30) and was present for most interviews we did for the film + countless discussions with people who were involved during that era from all SWC conference schools.

It became very clear that all schools had substantial "big bagman" groups, except maybe Rice. 

I loved Dickerson's quote in that.  Some schools were paying more than us but didn't win as much (pretty sure he was referring to aggy).

[bullet 1596]

29 minutes ago, Baconboy said:

Yes, Arkansas correctly saw that the SWC wasn't viable because of its small TV footprint and the strong presence of the NFL in Texas. UT saw it too, and UT officials even told Arkansas officials they needed to go first to provide cover for UT to make a move since politically UT couldn't be the school to blow up the conference.

The SEC's courtship of UT has been going on for over 30 years.

Georgia president talked to Bill Cunningham, but Cunningham didn't want to join the SEC with the academic excesses.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Interesting side note, back in the early 80s ESPN, back when it was really nothing and was televising rodeos and weightlifting and strongman competitions, offered the SWC a TV contract to nationally broadcast its football games on cable TV and the SWC turned them down. May not ultimately have made a difference, but you never know.

[mchookem 16212]

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

It was a super regional conference. Big 8 was regional and had issues, but even with Arkansas the swc was almost all Texas schools. Arkansas leaving just made it worse, but they left for that reason. Just didn’t work anymore. Both regionality issues got solved by creating the big 12, though some swc teams had to be sacrificed to keep the state of Texas imbalance from being too severe.  So it got halved.  
politics then helped decide who got the axe. 

i did some research recently bc i have aggy/lsu friends that were throwing out that line...i couldn't remember details (i was a freshman or soph and just excited to be at games).

that^ is pretty much exactly what i put together from various sources.

i was told EVERYONE was doing it, we just didn't get caught. 

[Dennis Taylor 18706]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

TCU was #1 in the country under Jim Wacker. They had a great running back named Kenneth Davis who would have been the Heisman front runner in 1985 (I think) when he was suspended for the rest of the season and his career as it came to light TCU had been paying him.  IIRC.

A guy 2 years ahead of me in high school was pretty highly recruited and signed with TCU had a shiny new purple and silver Ford pickup truck shortly after signing day. He was class of 85 and was starting as a freshman when all that shit with Davis and others,  but I don't think he was one of the guys that got suspended 

[C-Man 27052]

TCU was #1 in the country under Jim Wacker. They had a great running back named Kenneth Davis who would have been the Heisman front runner in 1985 (I think) when he was suspended for the rest of the season and his career as it came to light TCU had been paying him.  IIRC.

TCU was never #1 under Wacker, not even close

[Hate 20103]

Yeah, that's why I put the "IIRC" at the end.  I recall them being highyl ranked, but I've drank a lot and smoked a lot since 1985.  My memory may not be great.  I do remember TCU being really good during that era and being shocked that a coach "self reported" the offenses. 

[927 E. 41st 1124]

Most of the reasons have already been touched on, but don't underestimate the long term effect of the parasites. All the schools get the same payout, but if you are not bringing as much to the table as you are taking away it ultimately is unsustainable. TCU, Rice, and Baylor were for the most part happy to take a beating to take a check. 

I've seen lots of High School stadiums that were superior to what TCU and Baylor were happy to play in back in the 60's and 70's. Sure, they improved (with the money the other schools brought in) over the last few years, but without us being their sugar daddy let's just see where that goes. 

[Slacks 6791]

3 hours ago, Bigbend1812 said:

Video?

Killed SWC radio stars.

[Slacks 6791]

3 hours ago, Shaddie said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fanbuzz.com/college-football/eric-dickerson-trans-am/amp/
 

Link to maroon trans am given to Eric Dickerson by AnM and then he went to SMU because they paid more. 

He also had a white one with a blue firebird. 

Fact.

[Eggo 3975]

2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Exactly. Anyone who seriously believes Texas had anything to do whatsoever for the SWC’s demise is using circular reasoning to argue backwards to an assumed conclusion. It’s a form of self-deception, if you think about it. 

There was an article on ESPN not long ago about this and it also spelled out the TV share in this way: elite conferences can deal with having 1 or 2 private schools. That’s fine. When the SWC broke up:

The PAC 10 had 2 private schools (Stanford, USC)

The SEC had 1 (Vandy)

The Big 10 had 2 (Purdue and Northwestern)

The ACC had 2 (Duke and Wake Forest)

The Big East had 2 (Miami and BC)

The SWC had 4 public (Texas, A&M, Tech and Houston) and 4 private (Baylor, Rice, SMU, TCU). That’s an unsustainable model, and it’s one of the big reasons it died. The series of probations levied by the NCAA against several SWC schools in the 80’s didn’t help, the death penalty of SMU even less so, etc. 

When you make a conference’s existence almost entirely dependent on two of its members, you’ve got yourself a shit conference. 

Would the PAC 12 survive if USC and UCLA left? Probably 

Would the SEC survive if Alabama and LSU left? Maybe but that would be devastating 

Would the B1G survive if Ohio State and Michigan left? I really don’t think so, but they’ve been far more proactive in expanding the conference to mitigate that reality in the past decade than the fucking Big 12 has (and let’s face it, those two aren’t going anywhere).

Would the ACC survive if Clemson and Florida State left? See SEC

Some are arguable, but the SWC and Big 12 were not arguable. The SWC needed Texas and A&M to survive. The Big 12 needed Texas and Oklahoma to survive. When that happens, you don’t blame half of the teams in he conference depends on for survival; you blame the conference for depending on them in the first place. 

 

Purdue is public. 

Edit: nvm someone else caught it

Edited July 26, 2021 by Eggo

[Nicole44 22027]

I love my school. Proud I got a degree from UT but if y’all don’t think UT didn’t pay players…I don’t know what to tell ya.  A friend of mine said it’s better to launder it through the churches and such like Auburn did. It doesn’t matter now because the NCAA is done. 

[Helobious 9481]

40 minutes ago, Hate said:

Yeah, that's why I put the "IIRC" at the end.  I recall them being highyl ranked, but I've drank a lot and smoked a lot since 1985.  My memory may not be great.  I do remember TCU being really good during that era and being shocked that a coach "self reported" the offenses. 

TCU went 3-8 in 1985 and was never ranked at any point in the season. In fact the only season in the whole 1980s that they ever even achieved a ranking was 1984, when they peaked at #12. You might not be a very smart man. 
 

https://collegepollarchive.com/football/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=29#.YP4xo-Q8IlQ

[Hate 20103]

Lol...being called "not smart" by you is fucking hilarious.  You are by far the worst fucking poster on this board and that is saying something.  The fact that I didn't recall something correctly that happened before you were probably born while admitting that I may not be correct says all you need to know.  You are a dingleberry on on Shaggy/Surley's ass. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Hate

[Huckleberry 32701]

Jim Wacker won two Division II national titles at Southwest Texas State, that's probably what you're remembering as far as Wacker and great teams.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Huckleberry

[Hate 20103]

What I recall was Kenneth Davis racking up yard after yard and being shocked when I learned that Wacker had self reported violations. I remember thinking at the time he was crazy because TCU was good and had a chance to make some noise.  Obviously, the being ranked highly I didn't remember correctly.  Oh well, I'll wake up tomorrow and not be Helobious....that's a good thing. 

[Helobious 9481]

18 minutes ago, Hate said:

Lol...being called "not smart" by you is fucking hilarious.  You are by far the worst fucking poster on this board and that is saying something.  The fact that I didn't recall something correctly that happened before you were probably born while admitting that I may not be correct says all you need to know.  You are a dingleberry on on Shaggy/Surley's ass. 

I mean I wasn’t remotely close to existing yet in 1985, and it took me all of 3 minutes to find out the answer here. But yes I’m the dumb one. 

[C-Man 27052]

You might not be a very smart man. 

[clapclapclap 9000]

15 minutes ago, Hate said:

Oh well, I'll wake up tomorrow and not be Helobious....that's a good thing. 

- Winston Churchill

[Wiler77 1558]

 

5 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I mean I wasn’t remotely close to existing yet in 1985, and it took me all of 3 minutes to find out the answer here. But yes I’m the dumb one. 

To be fair, below was his statement.  The first sentence is far off, although TCU was 8-4 that year and started 8-1.

In 1984, Kenneth Davis rush for 1600+ yards with  7.6 TPC average.  So yea, he would probably be a Heisman front runner going into 1985.  I have no idea to his fate or TCU paying players.  I swear, some of you people are fucking autistic with the level of post scrutiny.  Understand the point of the post.  Don't be Rainman.

That was a movie btw.  Look it up while counting the toothpicks you dropped on the floor.

 

3 hours ago, Hate said:

TCU was #1 in the country under Jim Wacker. They had a great running back named Kenneth Davis who would have been the Heisman front runner in 1985 (I think) when he was suspended for the rest of the season and his career as it came to light TCU had been paying him.  IIRC.

 

[Hate 20103]

11 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I mean I wasn’t remotely close to existing yet in 1985, and it took me all of 3 minutes to find out the answer here. But yes I’m the dumb one. 

Yeah, and I was working purely off of recollection versus looking everything up on Google before I post it.  I said "IIRC" when i made that post.  The fact that you most likely look everything up before you post and still come off as a dumbass says all there is to say.  You are the worst fucking poster on this board which says a lot.  Sleep well knowing that.

[DanTheHorn 4901]

The way I remember it is Texas had fallen on hard times with all the cheating going on around it at other institutions. After Arkansas left to a conference in which folks did not report each other and Texas schools got caught, talent started to leave the state in droves. There was nothing to build on. TV had no interest since it was only the State of Texas and what was here looked like the streets of escape from New York. That is my at the time anecdotal perspective.

[DanTheHorn 4901]

1 hour ago, Nicole44 said:

I love my school. Proud I got a degree from UT but if y’all don’t think UT didn’t pay players…I don’t know what to tell ya.  A friend of mine said it’s better to launder it through the churches and such like Auburn did. It doesn’t matter now because the NCAA is done. 

I am not saying we did not pay but I refuse to believe we could not outbid schools like TCU, SMU and aggy for players. So if we paid we did not bid well.

[KaiserSoze 997]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

TCU went 3-8 in 1985 and was never ranked at any point in the season. In fact the only season in the whole 1980s that they ever even achieved a ranking was 1984, when they peaked at #12. You might not be a very smart man. 
 

https://collegepollarchive.com/football/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=29#.YP4xo-Q8IlQ

TCU easily had the worst ROI for their payments vs. the other SWC schools during that era. 

[Longboard Horn 40142]

12 hours ago, Shaddie said:

Aggy and SMU got caught red handed paying players. Not the odd booster here or there. Institutional cheating. 

 

[Hate 20103]

TCU easily had the worst ROI for their payments vs. the other SWC schools during that era. 

That 3-8 he references was after several players were kicked off the team, including Kenneth Davis.

[CfRhTxStBobcats 600]

12 hours ago, Laxtonto said:

So how many big bagman groups were happening all at once? SMU vs A&M I know about to an extent, but what is this about TCU? How dirty was the old SWC? My memories as a kid are all about things on the field. I didn’t get into the business side of sports until well into college…

TCU cheating didn't seem to help them much. I remember year after year ass kickings from my earliest memories of Longhorn football. Tide didn't turn until the cockroaches were allowed in the Big 12.

[Davis Lane 5553]

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Boy, there’s a lot to that explanation and it’s been largely covered. One thing we can agree on is that, while the death of the SWC had numerous causes, video killed the radio star. 

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

As noted, a combination of factors:
1. The NFL continued to erode the fanbases of SMU, TCU, and Rice, and those schools became less viable compared to big state schools
2. The rampant cheating of the early 80s really broke down relationships among the universities as well as hurt the competitiveness of the on-field product
3. In the late 80s / early 90s Texas regularly flirted with the Pac(8?) 10, and aggy with the secsecsec - as noted, Texas did not want to join the secsecsec for academic reasons

The Big 8 became a good compromise because it met everyone's goals: kept Texas and aggy together in a conference that was a good option for both schools. The XII might have continued to be a great conference if corn were not such little bitches. In the early days, there was not a better conference out there as virtually every school had some great years teams particularly corn, OU, and KSU.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Harrison Bergeron

[Steamboat1874 4032]

[Don Johnson 4745]

You get a lot of different POV's in the this, and some are debatable, but its still a great read.  SWC Breakup - an oral history

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30424417/i-wishof-well-demise-southwest-conference-25-years-later

 

[Don Johnson 4745]

Regarding Arkansas leaving.  Texas and Texas A&M where part of the conversation at the time.  They politically couldn't leave.  Arkansas knew the SWC would fall apart and felt that Texas and TAM would join the Pac 12.  Also where told later that they would not have been included in the Big 12.  A lot is made of Arkansas struggling in football after joining the SEC, which is true.  However, it was really the only move at the time.  And a no-brainer.

 

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2010/06/10/sherrington-frank-broyles-not-surprised-to-see-misfit-big-12-die-college-football-is-the-loser/

Quote

 

Why?

"We were worried about Texas and Texas A&M pulling out and leaving us for the Pac-10," he said.

"Where would we have been if they'd done that? What kind of athletic prestige could we have without those two?"

 

Quote

 

With his president's blessings, Broyles said he discussed his plans with Texas and A&M, which both showed "great interest," then initiated talks with the SEC in 1987 or '88.

Only Texas and A&M didn't follow his lead. Broyles was told that political pressures kept both from leaving without Baylor, which seems likely.

But what if Arkansas had remained in the SWC and become part of the Big 12?

"I was told by people in the Big 12 after the fact that we would not have been included," he said. "Baylor and Texas Tech had political power. We didn't. The Big 8 was only going to take four teams from the SWC.

"I was told there was no way they'd have taken us."

 

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21061]

Ffffffffffuck Baylor.  JFC, I hope they end up in the AAC or go to FCS.  Cunts. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by DigglerontheHoof

[Js1 85109]

5 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Ffffffffffuck Baylor.  JFC, I hope they end up in the AAC or go to FCS.  Cunts. 

The AAC is too good for them.   The Sun Belt or C-USA. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21061]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

The AAC is too good for them.   The Sun Belt or C-USA. 

And I hope Grant Teaff isn't too senile to see and understand what's going on.  Fuck him, too. 

[Armybrat 40739]

13 hours ago, KaiserSoze said:

I spent a year working on a SMU death penalty documentary (Pony Excess- the series finale of the original ESPN 30 for 30) and was present for most interviews we did for the film + countless discussions with people who were involved during that era from all SWC conference schools.

It became very clear that all schools had substantial "big bagman" groups, except maybe Rice. 

The alumni “hundred dollar” handshake was rife all over the SWC, including the UT dressing room.

As I recall, Texas was sanctioned for a couple of less egregious incidents during McWilliams’ tenure; A coach buying a recruit a pair of cowboy boots at a shop on South Congress, and another buying a r/t plane ticket for a player to attended a family funeral. “Lack of institutional control”, as they put it. Texas lost 3 or 4 scholarships for a year or two, I think. 

 

[Tex Pete 20179]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Interestingly, there are two people on the planet who ever accused Vince Young of being slow: you and him. 

Sounds like your father in law is the slow one.

[Red Six 131]

13 hours ago, Moby Ric said:

Correct on both counts. fify

All we got popped for in the 80s was an assistant coach buying a recruit a pair of cowboy boots. So either we weren't trying hard enough, or we were just good enough to cover it up.

[Napoleon 8604]

13 hours ago, DeadArmadillo said:

fwiw, Purdue is public.  A land grant school.  The ag school of Indiana

 

13 hours ago, hpslugga said:

I stand corrected on that.

…and Syracuse is a PRIVATE school, just a large one like USC.

[Grippe 308]

JFC, you people need to study history more.  What killed the SWC didn't start inside the conference - it was changing monetary dynamics of college football.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_Oklahoma

[Paul Wesley 3277]

2 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

The XII might have continued to be a great conference if corn were not such little bitches. In the early days, there was not a better conference out there as virtually every school had some great years teams particularly corn, OU, and KSU.

Yeah, the original Big 12 was a good league, with a high % of teams that could carry their own weight.  Nebraska was one of the best two or three teams in football at the time, Colorado was not too far removed from their own national championship.  Missouri had a well-run basketball program, etc.  The Aggies still had a good football team (undoubtedly benefitting from the previous 15 years of cash-filled FedEx envelopes under Sherill and Slocum).  

The modern Big 12 is pretty meh.  We really started turning back into the SWC, which a lot of people (including me) warned when we added TCU -- it did nothing to expand the footprint... it just added more boxcars to the conference train being pulled by fewer and fewer locomotives (Texas and OU).

Maybe.... ***maybe*** the Big 12 could have survived the defections if were able to expand the footprint... maybe adding BYU and Utah in the west, Cincinnati and Louisville in the midwest, etc.   I type that with the full realization that those would still be enormous downgrades from Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, etc.... I'm just saying, it *might* have kept the league viable.  

Anyway, it looks like the final chapter of the Big 12 is getting written, and the reasons for its demise are very similar to those of the SWC.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Paul Wesley

[Domedriver 655]

What I remember is being really pissed that my student tickets were barred because of unpaid shit (loans, library fines or parking tickets) and I had to climb a very scary 5.11 crack into DKR over by section 26U to see Eric Dickerson run the ball down our throats!  I risked my life or bodily harm to see my Horns get their shit pounded.

I was so pissed on so many levels!  Death Penalty!!  Errrrrrrg