Cavs vs. Celtics

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Yep. It's definitely not an award for those who should get it by June because basically lebron would have 9 of these by now.

I don't know if I really care about the award anyways. If a team like the 04 pistons wins it all, you're not giving it to sheed or Ben Wallace even tho they won it.

Russ absolutely earned it last yr. Sure his team didn't do shit but average a triple double per game is insane. Now we just expect him to get a TD every game so its worn off.

Correct.  It's a reg season award which is even more reason why waiting until the playoffs are complete to give it out is stupid as fuck.    That is for another thread.

[Goo Punch 4275]

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

   These first 15 years haven't given you enough data?

I keep saying this, and will keep repeating it until it sinks in. The Scotty-Jordan-Grant or Scotty-Jordan-Rodman combo were better basketball players than everyone they faced in the finals. Every. Single. Team. Now let's look at Lebron.

In 2006 Lebron ran through Kidd, Vince Carter, and a spry 26 yr old Richard Jefferson squad. Then he ran through Billups, Rip, and Sheed. All who were all stars that year, plus they had Prince too. Obviously he ran up against the Spurs with 3 HOF'ers, Bowen, Horry, and Finley, but take a look at the Cavs 2006 roster.

In 2011 he lost to the Mavs but beat the Celtics with 4 All Stars on that squad.

In 2012 with his back against the wall down 3-2 he came out and beat the brakes off of Boston, scoring 29 in the first half and only missing one shot. He cruised to an easy 45 total. He also dropped 31 in the close out game. They won the title vs Westbrook, KD, and James Harden. The complimentary pieces were better too.

In 2013 they beat the Spurs, a roster that we now know had 3 HOF'ers on it, plus one of the best players in basketball named Kawhi Leonard.

In 2015 he went up against GSW with no Kyrie, no Love, no bench, and still managed to take them to 6 games.

In 2016 They came back and beat them.

 

   All of those things are things that Jordan never did. Jordan teams never beat anyone until they had the roster to do it. Until man for man they were absolutely better than the teams they were playing against. Many will say "that Piston team was old", or "That Boston team had fallen off". Well guess what? Guess what teams would've been playing for the NBA championship had it not been for Lebron James? To me that is why I think Bron is the GOAT. Winning titles is a team achievement. Durant may go on to win 5 titles, but does anyone really think that he is better than Bron because he has a better finals record? Bottom line, this dude seems like it doesn't matter who is on his team, he can will them to the finals at this point. He is a one man wrecking machine the likes of anything we have ever seen or likely will ever see again. Does anyone doubt that if you replace James Harden with Lebron James that they beat GSW?

 

 

Well like I said earlier, LeBron constructed those teams, every single one of them. He’s played GM his entire career (since he was 14 years old really), and his insistence on having a bunch of his useless friends taking up cap and roster space has hurt him. If he wasn’t forcing Dan Gilbert to pay te likes of Booby, Varejao, Damon Jones, JR Smith, and on and on and on and on, just to keep him happy, I wager he’d have more titles by now, and would have been the best player on some all-time teams, as opposed to being the best player who was always carrying dead weight as far as he could.

[Thatguy 8478]

18 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Well like I said earlier, LeBron constructed those teams, every single one of them. He’s played GM his entire career (since he was 14 years old really), and his insistence on having a bunch of his useless friends taking up cap and roster space has hurt him. If he wasn’t forcing Dan Gilbert to pay te likes of Booby, Varejao, Damon Jones, JR Smith, and on and on and on and on, just to keep him happy, I wager he’d have more titles by now, and would have been the best player on some all-time teams, as opposed to being the best player who was always carrying dead weight as far as he could.

    Man, you have no idea what you are talking about. You think every player the Cavs went after or gave money is Lebron's fault. You are dead wrong. To ao think that Riley conceded to Bron is sill as well. Bron had some say so this last go round, but that is about it.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Thatguy

[Goo Punch 4275]

5 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

    Man, you have no idea what you are talking about. You think every player the Cavs went after or gave money is Lebron's fault. You are dead wrong. To ao think that Riley conceded to Bron is sill as well. Bron had some say so this last go round, but that is about it.

Every single player I named was there because LeBron said so, and never would have been otherwise. You act like it’s ansecret, when it’s not. LeBron has been hand picking the majority of his teammates and coaches since he was 14, with zero gaps in between. It is known.

[Thatguy 8478]

20 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Well like I said earlier, LeBron constructed those teams, every single one of them. He’s played GM his entire career (since he was 14 years old really), and his insistence on having a bunch of his useless friends taking up cap and roster space has hurt him. If he wasn’t forcing Dan Gilbert to pay te likes of Booby, Varejao, Damon Jones, JR Smith, and on and on and on and on, just to keep him happy, I wager he’d have more titles by now, and would have been the best player on some all-time teams, as opposed to being the best player who was always carrying dead weight as far as he could.

  You are right bro, Bron is the one holding Cleveland back, because Cleveland has done so much with it's sports teams over the years, right? I mean, Gilbert had them on the right track when Bron left, right? Come on man, you cannot believe that can you?

[Goo Punch 4275]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  You are right bro, Bron is the one holding Cleveland back, because Cleveland has done so much with it's sports teams over the years, right? I mean, Gilbert had them on the right track when Bron left, right? Come on man, you cannot believe that can you?

I didn’t say any of the things that you just said, I said that he has been constructing his own teams for decades, which is a fact. A well known fact at that.

[Thatguy 8478]

Just now, Goo Punch said:

Every single player I named was there because LeBron said so, and never would have been otherwise. You act like it’s ansecret, when it’s not. LeBron has been hand picking the majority of his teammates and coaches since he was 14, with zero gaps in between. It is known.

   Absolutely not. Lebron was not in control his first go round. Part of his departure from Miami is because of the opposite of what you are suggesting. Pat Riley doesn't give control to anyone. He leveraged his return to Cleveland, but a lot of the moves he made were not his choice. Kyrie wasn't his choice. Griff wasn't his choice. In fact, the Griff move may ultimately be why both Kyrie and Bron leave the organization.

[d2o 1602]

If LBJ was picking his teams early in CLE I'm pretty positive he wouldn't have forced them to keep JJ Hickson when it would have got them Amare (pre-inuries)

[Goo Punch 4275]

Okay so he didn’t take control of Cleveland the night he was drafted, but are we really going to go down this rabbit hole and pretend like there aren’t scores of LBJ’s friends who got contracts because he said so? If so I’m out, because that’s not even news, much less something worth arguing over. Mo Williams, Booby Gibson, Anderson Verajao, Damon Jones, James Jones, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, and more all got contracts because LeBron wanted them to. That’s a fact. Hisbteams could hve been better, but he wanted his guys.

 

[Thatguy 8478]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

If LBJ was picking his teams early in CLE I'm pretty positive he wouldn't have forced them to keep JJ Hickson when it would have got them Amare (pre-inuries)

  Logic in this argument is not allowed. Everything the Cavs did during the years that Bron was in Miami suggest they are an organization known for idiocy. They stumbled on Kyrie. The Wiggins pick was silly. So was the Bennett pick. Dion Waters anyone? They have shown they have no idea how to evaluate talent time and time again whether Bron has been there or not. However, all of their ineptitude is because of Lebron though if you ask Derka. Did Lebron try to get some role players there that he won a trophy with? Absolutely! Who wouldn't? But suggesting that every move is him in failing to acknowledge the Cavs history.

[Thatguy 8478]

3 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Okay so he didn’t take control of Cleveland the night he was drafted, but are we really going to go down this rabbit hole and pretend like there aren’t scores of LBJ’s friends who got contracts because he said so? If so I’m out, because that’s not even news, much less something worth arguing over. Mo Williams, Booby Gibson, Anderson Verajao, Damon Jones, James Jones, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, and more all got contracts because LeBron wanted them to. That’s a fact. Hisbteams could hve been better, but he wanted his guys.

   None of those guys ended up in Cleveland because of Lebron except the Miami guys.

[Goo Punch 4275]

  Logic in this argument is not allowed. Everything the Cavs did during the years that Bron was in Miami suggest they are an organization known for idiocy. They stumbled on Kyrie. The Wiggins pick was silly. So was the Bennett pick. Dion Waters anyone? They have shown they have no idea how to evaluate talent time and time again whether Bron has been there or not. However, all of their ineptitude is because of Lebron though if you ask Derka. Did Lebron try to get some role players there that he won a trophy with? Absolutely! Who wouldn't? But suggesting that every move is him in failing to acknowledge the Cavs history.

Yeah, you’re going off the rails on this one. You literally ignore everything I say and instead are incessantly ranting about “how everything bad about Cleveland is all LeBron’s fault.” Okay. I’m out.

[immortal13 4059]

21 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  You are right bro, Bron is the one holding Cleveland back, because Cleveland has done so much with it's sports teams over the years, right? I mean, Gilbert had them on the right track when Bron left, right? Come on man, you cannot believe that can you?

They have made every move he has asked for, so the fact that he has shitty players around him is his own fault. Meanwhile he is holding them hostage as to whether he is staying or leaving. 

[Thatguy 8478]

Just now, immortal13 said:

They have made every move he has asked for, so the fact that he has shitty players around him is his own fault. Meanwhile he is holding them hostage as to whether he is staying or leaving. 

   They have not made every move he asked for. They have made some moves he asked for.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

   They have not made every move he asked for. They have made some moves he asked for.

This is correct.   The truth is somewhere in the middle.     He probably could've tried to be a little more hands off but with the track record of the FO in CLE I don't really blame him for being more involved.    To say as a fact that the FO would have made the team better if he just let them do everything is being purposefully ignorant IMO.  

[Thatguy 8478]

48 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Well like I said earlier, LeBron constructed those teams, every single one of them. He’s played GM his entire career (since he was 14 years old really), and his insistence on having a bunch of his useless friends taking up cap and roster space has hurt him. If he wasn’t forcing Dan Gilbert to pay te likes of Booby, Varejao, Damon Jones, JR Smith, and on and on and on and on, just to keep him happy, I wager he’d have more titles by now, and would have been the best player on some all-time teams, as opposed to being the best player who was always carrying dead weight as far as he could.

 

7 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

 

Yeah, you’re going off the rails on this one. You literally ignore everything I say and instead are incessantly ranting about “how everything bad about Cleveland is all LeBron’s fault.” Okay. I’m out.

 

You made the statement that he played GM his whole career  and constructed every team he has been on which is completely untrue. He has had some leverage as of late, but he didn't make a lot of the moves that happened  even this last go round.

[Thatguy 8478]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

This is correct.   The truth is somewhere in the middle.     He probably could've tried to be a little more hands off but with the track record of the FO in CLE I don't really blame him for being more involved.    To say as a fact that the FO would have made the team better if he just let them do everything is being purposefully ignorant IMO.  

  Considering their track record why anyone would ever suggest that is beyond my comprehension. Cleveland basketball and football has been ineptitude at it's finest for decades. They have proven to have the ability to make the wrong decision time and time again.

[UT Lawnghorn 758]

39 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Every single player I named was there because LeBron said so, and never would have been otherwise. You act like it’s ansecret, when it’s not. LeBron has been hand picking the majority of his teammates and coaches since he was 14, with zero gaps in between. It is known.

Idk about this. LBJ has absolutely controlled Cleveland's roster moves since he came back and a lot of their currenty shitty team is on him, but I don't remember him having that type of control over the Cavs his first time there. Sure, he expressed his opinion on players and the FO listened, like what happens with most all-time greats, but I don't recall Lebron being nearly as in control of the situation his first go around as you're making him out to be.