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should baseball adopt soccer style loans?

shadow_operative

By shadow_operative
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Would you be in favor of soccer style loans for the MLB?   

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  1. 1. Would you be in favor of soccer style loans for the MLB?


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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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instead of having your stud prospect playing in AA or AAA you loan him to Detroit, or Pittsburgh, or Baltimore, and he's a part of that team for one season. he cannot play against you if you don't want him to. the prospect gets MLB experience, he may become an important part of a winning team, and you get him back the next year. in a vacuum, regardless of current service rules, would you be in favor of this? 

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ztejas

ztejas 43545

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This doesn't make sense to me. Usually big clubs loan guys down a notch in soccer. When has a club ever loaned someone up? 

Also I feel like there is too much red tape in baseball to pull this off and it sort of defeats the purpose of farm systems. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Usually big clubs loan guys down a notch in soccer. When has a club ever loaned someone up? 

exactly. instead of your young stud playing for Round Rock or Sugarland, he plays a full season with an every day role for a big league club, and then returns to your organization the next year. 

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ztejas

ztejas 43545

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2 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

exactly. instead of your young stud playing for Round Rock or Sugarland, he plays a full season with an every day role for a big league club, and then returns to your organization the next year. 

But baseball trades guys all the fucking time. Trades aren't a thing in European soccer. It's kind of an either/or, right? 

And as to the larger question - no, I wouldn't take the loan/transfer fee system over the trade system. I think American sports are pretty uniquely amazing in their ability to produce random-ass champions and I think we like it that way. 

Edited by ztejas
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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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it's not an either/or. the trade system remains. you simply get to have your best prospecys play every day for shitty MLB teams. it can be a one month loan, a two month loan, a three month loan, or a season long loan, it doesn't matter. it's just a way for good prospects to get MLB experience before they get called up to their parent club, and a way for shitty teams (who would be incentivized on one way or another) to field a more competitive squad. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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maybe a contending team loses their starting SS to the DL for six weeks and they have no SS depth, and you have Wander Franco playing in AAA. now all of a sudden the Red Sox, or Padres, or Dodgers want to sign him on loan for a month or two. your top prospect gets real deal MLB experience, which is good for you, and he fills a hole for the contending team, which is good for them. 

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txhorns

txhorns 2413

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No team would want to do this with their top prospects.  The prospect would be out of their control and could get hurt.  The prospect's service time would have to start if they are in the majors thus reducing the years the parent club would get them for.  But most importantly, no team would want their prospects negatively effecting their chances of making the playoffs.

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Guest

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Voted no, but needs ‘ more info/ description needed’

 

Also on the whole process, does the lending team reach out to others, ‘ Hey this guy can’t crack our lineup, but you might want to take a look…’. Or is it the prospect reaching out in a soccer version of transfer portal, ‘ Hey I’m buried on the depth chart here, and would try really hard for your squad.’

 

The process seems rife with conflicts of interest.

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19153

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NO. 


It really doesn't make sense.  What is Baltimore's upside in giving someone MLB AB's or innings that isn't a part of their future?  Why would NY want to give a prospect to someone else to develop when they might not care about pitch count, AB's, what position you want them to play etc.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13078

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7 hours ago, slorch said:

How does it impact future contracts/ loyalty to original club or the one they 'interned" for?

I would wonder more about service time. So games played on loan count towards MLB? If so the parent club would be losing control of their player sooner

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18951

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44 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

NO. 


It really doesn't make sense.  What is Baltimore's upside in giving someone MLB AB's or innings that isn't a part of their future?  Why would NY want to give a prospect to someone else to develop when they might not care about pitch count, AB's, what position you want them to play etc.

Speaking of Baltimore, they should be playing in AAA. 

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12930

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1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

NO. 


It really doesn't make sense.  What is Baltimore's upside in giving someone MLB AB's or innings that isn't a part of their future?  Why would NY want to give a prospect to someone else to develop when they might not care about pitch count, AB's, what position you want them to play etc.


This hits the nail on the head, there is none.

Loans work in soccer because there is promotion & relegation. You have incentive to win, if nothing else to stay up in your current league. So if you can get a high talent guy on loan, then you do it because that can be the difference between relegation or staying in the top flight.

With no risk of being sent down from MLB there is no real incentive to prioritize winning. So you would never do it. Hell, we have seen teams dismantle winners and sell off the pieces (looking across town at the Red Sox) because there is more money in a smaller payroll and losing than in a bigger payroll and being a winner.

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19153

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1 minute ago, Captain Ron said:


This hits the nail on the head, there is none.

Loans work in soccer because there is promotion & relegation. You have incentive to win, if nothing else to stay up in your current league. So if you can get a high talent guy on loan, then you do it because that can be the difference between relegation or staying in the top flight.

With no risk of being sent down from MLB there is no real incentive to prioritize winning. So you would never do it. Hell, we have seen teams dismantle winners and sell off the pieces (looking across town at the Red Sox) because there is more money in a smaller payroll and losing than in a bigger payroll and being a winner.

Everything you said is true, but it's even more stark than that... Not only is there no incentive to prioritize winning but there's clearly a bit of an incentive to actually prioritize losing. 

Literally every single thing about this scheme works opposite both teams long term interests.  The only person it would help is the players.  No team cares about that.  

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ztejas

ztejas 43545

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15 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

it's not an either/or. the trade system remains. you simply get to have your best prospecys play every day for shitty MLB teams. it can be a one month loan, a two month loan, a three month loan, or a season long loan, it doesn't matter. it's just a way for good prospects to get MLB experience before they get called up to their parent club, and a way for shitty teams (who would be incentivized on one way or another) to field a more competitive squad. 

I don't think there are many AAA players better than guys starting in the majors. And if there are - they usually replace those guys pretty quickly. I think the current system is plenty efficient to get the best ~500-600 players in the majors. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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15 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

maybe a contending team loses their starting SS to the DL for six weeks and they have no SS depth, and you have Wander Franco playing in AAA. now all of a sudden the Red Sox, or Padres, or Dodgers want to sign him on loan for a month or two. your top prospect gets real deal MLB experience, which is good for you, and he fills a hole for the contending team, which is good for them. 

 

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Everything you said is true, but it's even more stark than that... Not only is there no incentive to prioritize winning but there's clearly a bit of an incentive to actually prioritize losing. 

Literally every single thing about this scheme works opposite both teams long term interests.  The only person it would help is the players.  No team cares about that.  

 

2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:


This hits the nail on the head, there is none.

Loans work in soccer because there is promotion & relegation. You have incentive to win, if nothing else to stay up in your current league. So if you can get a high talent guy on loan, then you do it because that can be the difference between relegation or staying in the top flight.

With no risk of being sent down from MLB there is no real incentive to prioritize winning. So you would never do it. Hell, we have seen teams dismantle winners and sell off the pieces (looking across town at the Red Sox) because there is more money in a smaller payroll and losing than in a bigger payroll and being a winner.

did y'all miss the above post? you must have. same with the people talking about service time, when i already addressed that in the OP.

 

also, are we all saying that we like tanking? that the current system which rewards tanking is a good one? because i hate it. i'd love to find ways to incentivize fielding a competitive team. this tanking shit is terrible, as are the service time rules which keep badass players stuck in the minors.

 

yeah, this idea is 100% a bad idea under the current constructs of baseball, constructs which none talented young players while rewarding teams who try to lose. the current constructs of baseball would absolutely have to go for the loan idea to make any sense (i was on my fourth WT 101 when i made this thread, lay off me), but that's fine with me. if there's any major american sport that could use a bit of a shake-up it's baseball. i hate keeping talented players down in the minors because if service time, and i hate rewarding tanking. teams should at least try to be good. a wild idea, i know. 

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Michael Knight

Michael Knight 12995

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This might be the dumbest derka idea ever and thats saying a lot. They are setup and run 2 completely different ways, foreign leagues do not have free agency and they don't have a draft. They also already have a similar system to the minor leagues where a premier league team might have a farm team in another country or in the case of Italy just a smaller shittier club. There's basically 3 situations where loans happen, A) A young player isn't playing and they want to develop him B) a team needs a temporary replacement and can't pay the transfer funds C) the player wants out and no other team wants to pay his transfer. In the MLB A doesn't matter because there are so many games the one player will be able to get subbed in, B that's what trades and callups are for C that's what trades are for. Maybe try to understand one sport before suggesting stupid changes for another sport you don't understand.

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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Just now, Captain Ron said:

So we’re done here?

sure, with idea. but we can still discuss some of the objections to the idea and the reasoning behind the idea. Baltimore has lost 17 straight. the Cubs are like 5-20 since the trade deadline. guys like Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, and Vladdy Jr are being held in the minors to avoid service time when they should be playing in the MLB. if we could address and fix these issues, and incentivize teams to try and field competitive squads/win games, then the idea of loaning players starts to make sense. so no, it won't work in today's game, but we can still let it be a jumping off point for discussion. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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so how about this- is anyone else in favor of at least entertaining ideas to change some of baseball's systemic problems, even if it means a drastic overhaul to certain parts of the game? because i am. i am very interested in hearing new ideas for baseball, even ones that will horrify baseball purists.

FTR, i love baseball, have loved it since i can remember, i'm not over here clamoring for change- i want to make that clear. i do however see things in the sport that bother me, and i am bothered as well by baseball's lack of growth, while sports like auto racing, soccer, and extreme sports have seen huge growth in terms of popularity over the last 10-20 years. the human umpires sucked a lot of the unwritten rules suck, as i've mentioned both tanking and service time rules suck, and actual baseball fans are more unhappy with the game than i've seen them since 1994, with basically nobody a fan of the "three true outcomes" direction we've gone. so with all of that, yeah, i'm definitely open to hearing people's ideas about to fix some of these issues while hopefully drawing in a wider audience at the same time. 

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12930

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Baseball's lack of growth and the things you are discussing are two completely different things.

First - on the loan idea, I think you might be onto something, but again, you would have to change so much of the structure of the leagues, turning them into something similar to European soccer leagues so that loans make sense. It's a lot to change.

Popularity, quick hit:

> while sports like auto racing, soccer, and extreme sports have seen huge growth in terms of popularity over the last 10-20 years.

I'm not sure about Auto Racing. I recall when the Indy 500 was much watch TV, I can't recall the last time I turned it on. Daytona was huge around 2000, but NASCAR has waned in popularity. TV Ratings back this up (declining in both).

Soccer and Extreme Sports has 0 audience 20 years ago, they could only go up.

Now baseball ...

The business model has little to nothing to do with baseball's popularity. The game is slow, that isn't going to change by bringing up guys from the minors or making loans. The game just doesn't translate to people these days. The pace is bad and with an on demand generation, it doesn't do it for them. You have to change the game to make it interesting to people, not the economics.

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12930

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19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Please head back to besthugecocks.com and quit threadshitting here.

Harsh, but fair.

Being a huge dick aside, baseball has a problem attracting younger viewers. MLB fan demographics back this up. And the major problem is the pace of the game. In an age of a younger that can watch whatever they want, whenever they want, baseball is having trouble keeping up.

Yeah I was a douche about it, but it’s not an incorrect assessment. 

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

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27 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Harsh, but fair.

Being a huge dick aside, baseball has a problem attracting younger viewers. MLB fan demographics back this up. And the major problem is the pace of the game. In an age of a younger that can watch whatever they want, whenever they want, baseball is having trouble keeping up.

Yeah I was a douche about it, but it’s not an incorrect assessment. 

I think its demise is greatly exaggerated. The MLS numbers continue to be downright embarrassing. But the fastest growing category every year is “I don’t follow any of these leagues”.
 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074264/sports-leagues-age/

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ztejas

ztejas 43545

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1 hour ago, Captain Ron said:

Yes all sports are down. But baseball has a bigger problem than all the other sports…

 

… it’s still baseball. 

The NBA has a pretty big problem on it's hands, actually. 

If anything baseball has seen an uptick as of late with some of these young international studs.

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

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4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The NBA has a pretty big problem on it's hands, actually. 

Yeah I don’t get the NBA thing. It was the NFL of the future 5 years ago, seems to have totally hit a wall. It’s not wokeism hurting it that badly either. Could just be a temporary dip but it seems deeper than that.

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ztejas

ztejas 43545

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9 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Yeah I don’t get the NBA thing. It was the NFL of the future 5 years ago, seems to have totally hit a wall. It’s not wokeism hurting it that badly either. Could just be a temporary dip but it seems deeper than that.

Covid took its toll last year but they then followed it up with another lackluster Finals matchup. The biggest stars in the league that casual viewers will tune in for are still Durant LeBron and Curry and they are all on the wrong side of 30. It isn't unlike the desert wandering that the league did post MJ. 

Yeah Giannis is awesome but the casual fan just doesn't give a shit about the Milwaukee Bucks and their international superstar. Kind of like the Tim Duncan Spurs.

The NBA will be fine. But your assessment is correct - they were printing money in 2016 and had some of their best TV ratings ever. They will need some better narratives going forward to get back to those numbers. 

Edited by ztejas
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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54462

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Harsh, but fair.
Being a huge dick aside, baseball has a problem attracting younger viewers. MLB fan demographics back this up. And the major problem is the pace of the game. In an age of a younger that can watch whatever they want, whenever they want, baseball is having trouble keeping up.
Yeah I was a douche about it, but it’s not an incorrect assessment. 
Baseball has had trouble attracting younger viewers since I was a kid. Baseball has also always added fans as people age.
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WBT

WBT 20671

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People have been writing "baseball is dying" articles literally for over 100 years.  And revenues keep going up, until covid at least.

I would like to reduce the amount of service time manipulation.  I would shorten the time before players are rule 5 eligible, reduce the length of team control (probably to 4 years) and drastically raise the pre-arb salary.  Two problems with that though:

1) the union will never agree to a change that shifts so much salary from older players already in the union to future union members

2) these changes would get players to free agency sooner which would make it even harder for small market teams to ever keep a superstar through his prime

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