Evangelical Christians

[safe sex 11,731]

1 hour ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

This was me every sunday at 12:01, leaving my First Baptist Church.

 

 

Did you make moon waffles?

[Brisketexan 105,143]

100% but as a % of the overall population they are dropping as religious pluralism continues to grow in the US, which is annoying as it feels that they have more power than they've had in decades. 

 

Nothing bites more aggressively than a cornered dog. Seeing themselves fall into decline, their tribal, lizard-brained instinct is to lash out, and try to arrest that decline by force.

It’s the same thing you see with Elon and losing advertisers on Twitter. He COULD have been introspective, realized why advertisers were leaving the platform, and worked to address their concerns to get them to come back. Instead, he lashed out, threatened them, tried to blackmail them, and demonizes them….which in terms of realizing ad revenue, hasn’t been terribly smart.

Going to church once a week as a compulsory event to check the box, but then never reading the word or growing in your faith during the week, is the epitome of what is wrong with the culture of Christianity in America and has begat a lot of the "Christianity" that non-Christians and Christians alike find to be tragic and unacceptable and ultimately an abomination.
But yea, a whole generation was raised primarily with that type of programming. These people are honestly probably better off not even going that once a week out of obligation/legalism. Going to church doesn't save anyone, as they say.

I gotta say, you’ve hit on “reading the word” multiple times, and it’s problematic that it’s such a focal point. Not that reading scripture is inherently bad or good, but it’s a complicated endeavor. To really understand it, scripture needs to be studied in context, in light of translations, and subject to exegesis. Shit, when my wife is going to preach on a brief passage (think a mere handful of verses), she spends HOURS in exegesis digging into the passage. She reads the text in multiple languages (her Greek is strong, her Hebrew…is not).
I’ve always been impressed by Sunday school classes led by a seminary-trained leader who can lead a discussion on the subject passages, share some wrinkles from the original Greek, etc.
The impulse of “I can read it, I’m self-taught” isn’t helpful for engineering, law, theology, or anything particularly complex (and something with a 2000 yr history, foreign languages, and literally millions of fighting and historical context regarding its selection, fits that bill).
So, sure. Read the scripture, study it…in community, with good and honest instruction, reviewing secondary sources, etc.

[Satchel 6,938]

4 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Completely disagree. Couldn't be more in disagreement.

Completely agree. Couldn't be more in agreement.

 

The bible is like poker, as the old adage goes, except in poker they say "It takes a day to learn, and a lifetime to master", with the bible it takes days to read, and a lifetime to learn (and you'll never fully understand it, I don't believe, and you will gain new understanding of the same things you read, each time you do)

It's a lifelong journey and study, but make ZERO mistake about it, if you are a Christian you should be reading the Word of God. It's your sword in a world dominated with spiritual warfare and, through the help and presence of the Holy Spirit, the bible is how you get to better know God and have a deeper relationship.

The religions that gatekeep the bible and deem it too holy or important or complex a book that the masses shouldn't be trusted with self-feeding in their spiritual walk, those are the arrogant pharisees of our generation.

In my opinion, of course.

 

Of course.

And maybe this is what I should have led with. This is also why being in a strong community of believers (proverbs 27) and fellowship (hebrews 10) and being plugged in to a church with a strong leader (James 3, multiple Titus, etc.) is so important. Matthew 7, you will know by their fruits. Use discernment, etc.

But above all else if you don't read the word for yourself and self-feed, among all these other things, you get what we have today in American Christianity:

1) A bunch of infant Christians being spoonfed by pastors (and who knows of what efficacy and ability and heart of those pastors) and being blind to know if how they are being led is even correct or good, 

2) A bunch of flawed, man-made institutions (like the SBC or Catholic hierarchy or Methodist equivalent) who stand above all other saints and mete out the Word of God as only they see fit and able.

 

I see both traditions with magestria and belief in the priesthood of the believer as problematic.

[Gatorubet 30,239]

6 hours ago, BeardIP said:

It's a lifelong journey and study, but make ZERO mistake about it, if you are a Christian you should be reading the Word of God. It's your sword in a world dominated with spiritual warfare and, through the help and presence of the Holy Spirit, the bible is how you get to better know God and have a deeper relationship.

Could you explain the bold statement please, as I do not have a feel for what you mean by that?  Honest question. i’m guessing this is related to a belief in the inerrant nature of the Bible, with the warfare being between those believers who take it literally and those who do not.    But I’m guessing. 

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,783]

15 hours ago, Tigersnake said:

So, spent a fair amount of time growing up with half of my extended family attending rural SBC-type churches, another part of my youth spent around the Church of Christ etc. . So my question is, what happened to the major issue of demon-possessed music artists making music with subliminal devil messages that you can play backwards on a record player??? Like, the technology actually exists now where you could easily produce music with nefarious hidden messages, but you hear nothing about it. We used to play the Beatles and Blue Oyster Cult backwards and be like, "Holy shit, that's some spooky stuff!".   Record players (largely) went away, but still it seems like they could revive that one. 

Playing Revolution 9 backwards, you only hear “Turn me on, dead man” if you want to hear it. I didn’t think it was spooky. I thought it was nonsense.

Same goes for watching The Wizard of Oz while listening to Dark Side of the Moon. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

"A world dominated by spiritual warfare" Jesus Christ, calm it down. 

You're alive, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop making up unnecessary drama and just be kind to one another. 

 

 

[GenXer 2,878]

17 hours ago, 'stache said:

Dear leader has spoken. 

Such a gifted orator. Truly inspired words.

 

[Tigersnake 670]

47 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Playing Revolution 9 backwards, you only hear “Turn me on, dead man” if you want to hear it. I didn’t think it was spooky. I thought it was nonsense.

Same goes for watching The Wizard of Oz while listening to Dark Side of the Moon. 

Dark Side of the Rainbow...Thanks for the reminder.  

[CooterBrown 18,013]

17 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Agreed. Forcing people to go to church who don't want to be there, after a certain age, is not helpful to anyone. It's like forcing an alcoholic to go to AA against their will, let them go do what they want until or if they want to come voluntarily. All you are doing is wasting everyone's time otherwise.

Maybe I'm cynical, I don't know...

Yep. When I was a teen, I counted down the days of no more church.  I remember specifically telling my mom I only had two more weeks to go and then never again.  With the exception of weddings and funerals, I haven't set foot in a church since the summer of '90.  

 

[Jatrain 288]

11 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

This is certainly a philosphy. But it's not a Christian one.

Paul didn’t write Ephesians

[Dahobbs 17,534]

31 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

This is certainly a philosphy. But it's not a Christian one.

Probably why we should have less Christians. They've been terrible for the world. 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

16 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Probably why we should have less Christians. They've been terrible for the world. 

(Fewer)

[WhatTheBuck 28,783]

1 hour ago, Tigersnake said:

Dark Side of the Rainbow...Thanks for the reminder.  

Watch any movie while listening to any album and they’ll seem like they’re synchronized if you’re really stoned. 

[Gatorubet 30,239]

52 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

You ducked my question.   What would be useful is to explain or to define what rulers and authorities you are fighting with.  Handsome Joe Biden?  Nor have you identified who (or what) are the “powers of this dark world”, although I assume you are referring to the University of Georgia, but would except any combination of ‘gay’, ‘trans’’ or ‘secular.’   

it is like me asking you specifically to tell me who you were fighting with, and you reply, “I was fighting with those who had done me wrong.”   While your answer would be “an answer”, technically,  it would be a completely useless and intellectually dishonest response, given that it is universally understood that I was looking for the identity of your opponents.   If not their names - at least something that could identify them.  

So again, what does that word salad response mean?

[softlynow 1,814]

50 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

This is certainly a philosphy. But it's not a Christian one.

Disagree is you mean it doesn't jibe with Christ's words. Agree if you mean how his purported followers are always creating new nonsensical shibboleths that have very little to do with Christ's core message.

Neonmoon's statment squares well with the summary of the law. I find that people that talk about the Bible as their sword tend to advocate for things that are quite incongruent with Jesus's most important innovation of Judaic teaching.

[texasdago 7,573]

18 hours ago, Tigersnake said:

So, spent a fair amount of time growing up with half of my extended family attending rural SBC-type churches, another part of my youth spent around the Church of Christ etc. . So my question is, what happened to the major issue of demon-possessed music artists making music with subliminal devil messages that you can play backwards on a record player??? Like, the technology actually exists now where you could easily produce music with nefarious hidden messages, but you hear nothing about it. We used to play the Beatles and Blue Oyster Cult backwards and be like, "Holy shit, that's some spooky stuff!".   Record players (largely) went away, but still it seems like they could revive that one. 

Not only... they need to go after the liquor ads to really go bonkers.

I went to a YMCA camp one year when I was in elementary school.  First time I had really spent time away from my parents and I hated it.  Went once and that was it.  I remember a few things about camp... one was our counselor who was showing all of us how magazines use subliminal advertising to cause us to sin.  Case in point... see this ice cube in this ad for Crow Royal?  Yeah, ice cubes don't look like that... look at that cube... that's a demonic face there.  See it?

I kid you not.

https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/opinion/of-sex-and-ice-cubes-the-great-subliminal-advertising-scare/en-gb/2558

[Dahobbs 17,534]

8 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

but it's telling you think the Bible is word salad.

How so? Objectively speaking, larges portions of it are exactly that. Turns out, having a compilation of things written over the course of thousands of years, translated and retold multiple times, by many people, isn't the best way to tell a clean, consistent story. It doesn't mean there aren't worthwhile lessons within the bible. But pretending that large portions of it aren't word salad probably tells more about you than the other way around. Conflating the bible with god is a fundamental problem with many Christians' beliefs. 

Edited June 14 by Dahobbs

[Disco Strangler 1,877]

46 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Not only... they need to go after the liquor ads to really go bonkers.

I went to a YMCA camp one year when I was in elementary school.  First time I had really spent time away from my parents and I hated it.  Went once and that was it.  I remember a few things about camp... one was our counselor who was showing all of us how magazines use subliminal advertising to cause us to sin.  Case in point... see this ice cube in this ad for Crow Royal?  Yeah, ice cubes don't look like that... look at that cube... that's a demonic face there.  See it?

I kid you not.

https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/opinion/of-sex-and-ice-cubes-the-great-subliminal-advertising-scare/en-gb/2558

All of my ice cubes have wieners.

Spoiler

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,871]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How so? Objectively speaking, larges portions of it are exactly that. Turns out, having a compilation of things written over the course of thousands of years, translated and retold multiple times, by many people, isn't the best way to tell a clean, consistent story. It doesn't mean there aren't worthwhile lessons within the bible. But pretending that large portions of it aren't word salad probably tells more about you than the other way around. Conflating the bible with god is a fundamental problem with many Christians' beliefs. 

to understand that nonsense you have to remember than xtians believe that god spoke to the authors of the bible and told them what to write. so that word salad is directly from the mouth of god. omnipresence indeed.

[Captainant 27,671]

Chrispy I appreciate you typing up a fullsome response, but in just reading I can feel the doublespeak that's used by the modern christofacist movement today to steer public policy. First you say:

30 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

In no way, when I talk about the rulers and authorities that I believe Christians are fighting against, do I mean Joe Biden or University of Georgia's LGBT policies or any specific human being who believes differently than I do.

Which is fine and good, but when you follow that immediately up with 

30 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I take it to mean the unseen, "immaterial", forces that exist since the creation when Lucifer fell from heaven and, arguably, took some angels with him. Unholy forces that corrupt a man as he tries to walk a path of obedience, discipline, self-control and righteousness and holiness in an attempt to look as close to Jesus as one can on this side of Eden. Temptations, lusts, pride, you know, all the tricks in Satan's bag that have haunted mankind forever, and then some that are newer to our species (idolotry of worldiness, moral relativity, "my truth is my truth").

You'll quickly find in substantive conversation that your brothers in christ are going to apply the "unholy forces that corrupt" label to basically anything and everything that doesn't meet their cultural fit. We see it today with the modern evangelical church in general STILL opposing homosexuality, and using that ideology of "obedience, discipline, self-control and righteousness" as a cudgel to control their members through shame and otherness. 

So that's not to say that you're being dishonest, but rather maybe that you're just in too deep to realize that you're a mark that's believing kayfabe over reality. 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

17 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I just meant that, this italicized below which is the only small paragraph I replied with and is verbatim a biblical quote, was considered to be word salad.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

That isn't really an answer to the question "what do you mean by calling the Bible a sword in world dominated by spiritual warfare?". In the context of the question, I would consider that word salad. 

[SKJ 1,311]

I've heard this same thing my whole life and it still doesn't make any sense. 

[Bookman 4,639]

The last time I went to church was in 2019. When I sat down, I made sure I had a plan in case someone started shooting up the place.

[Bookman 4,639]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

Sorry, completely missed the thrust of your question. The word of God being a sword to fight against darkness in spiritual warfare just meaning that in the Bible is truth and knowledge that can be used to protect yourself against and there is hope and glory proclaimed (through the mystery of faith) that sin and death has been defeated l. If you believe, that is, what the Bible says.

So why do you think the Bible is the Word of God? 

[Bookman 4,639]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

2 Tim. 3:16-17

Okay, anything else? 

[Bookman 4,639]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Proverbs 30:5

Romans 16:25

2 Peter 1:20

So it's turtles all the way down? 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,871]

why do you bother?

[HendersonHorns 85]

It’s hard to live like Beard is saying. It’s easy to poopoo it and call it sky daddy. That’s the worldly thing to do. 
 

I stumble more than most I imagine. 
 

one story I would share that I think would bring some understanding to what we should live like every day. 
 

Luke 15:11-32

we are all like one of the brothers. Either righteously overemphasize works or flippantly sin. Some need to better understand Grace and some understand sanctification. 
 

I need help daily. Hourly….  

[Gatorubet 30,239]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

Lastly, you said "word salad". I quoted directly from the book of the bible that which you accused me of writing a word salad. If anything what I just wrote was word salad, but it's telling you think the Bible is word salad.

The Bible is an incredible book. What the Bible is NOT, is a book to be read literally, or to hold out the writing in various New Testament chapters to be taken as commandments from God just because followers of the new religion wrote letters to each other. 

It is impossible for a anyone with a smidge of critical thinking to read Genesis and not know that the ark story is really two stories at different times mashed together.   Or to believe it literally happened.   Anyone doing research on biblical higher criticism who sees how the JEDP sources were combined and edited into the finished product gives a definitive rejection of at least the Old Testament as some sort of accurate literal document.    Similarly, anyone who reads Revelations as anything other than an ancient writer who has real problems with Rome is missing the mark.   The Left Behind stuff is nonsense. 

So to your point, unless you’re one of those poor souls who think that the Bible is 100% accurate, saying that some of the Bible is word salad is not meant as an insult. Nor saying I am applying that word salad descriptor to every sentence in the book.   But it sure as heck is not grounds to say that every word and phrase in it comes from Almighty God.  The texts were written by humans, subject to the limited cultural and scientific assets and influences extant when they wrote what they wrote.   Which is why I do not take my position on in vitro fertilization from the same knuckleheads who thought it was fine to put women in menstruation tents.  

Given that experts cannot agree which part of letters attributed to Paul were written by Paul, let alone where the various attributed Pauline comments were placed within corinthians - or that all Timothy teachings were made by Paul - that pretty much makes a lot of this stuff Word salad.

it is like attributing to Moses’ authorship the first five chapters, which includes a statement where Moses said that ‘Moses was the humblest  man on the face of the Earth. “    

I hope you see where I’m coming from. Anyone who says “the Bible says it I believe it that ends it” might take offense at what I said.  

Actually, God is such a dick in the old Testament that the Gnostic view that the Old Testament God was the Demiurge - and a different cat than the New Testament God - makes some sense.  It’s hard to equate the new testament God of love with the asshole who would send bears to kill children for calling somebody a bald man.   

I prefer a red rule Bible. Jesus was awesome sauce.  Some of his followers, not so much.

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

14 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Luke says that he was trying to get as many details correct as possible in his account about Jesus. He hoped it would help believers know the truth more fully. But we will never know all the facts of Jesus’ life or be able to explain how he could be born of a virgin mother or cure blind people with spit and dirt, raise dead girls from their beds, or escape his own grave after three days.

Oh well then we should absolutely legislate the lives of others based upon our own personal religious beliefs because "Luke" was trying to get things right. 

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Fair enough! I’m no earthly good in these conversations and I can assure you many of my peers are uncomfortable with my level of “don’t give a crap” when it comes to culture wars, but for myself, I will give Caesar what I should and submit to the authorities where I live, and I’ll pilgrimage when or if it becomes to heavy a burden to bear.

No worries, we're just the 2024 version of these dudes sitting around pondering the bigger universe and our place in it.

 

Edited June 14 by SimonBolivar

[mooseoutfront 3,643]

Holy water on the brain and I'm losin' sleep
Holy Bible on the night stand next to me
As I'm raped by another monkey circus freak
Tryin' to take my indigence away from me, from me yeah

Holy water is rustin' me, yeah
Holy water is rustin' me, is rustin' me, rustin' me

Bloody murder is the best I've heard her scream
Holy devil in the flesh some might believe
And they take thine majesty so seriously
'Cause it's the big lies more likely to be believed, believed

Yeah, holy water is rustin' me
Yeah, holy water is rustin' me, is rustin' me
Rustin' me, yeah

Damn the water if its life, you want to drink
Mind your mother if it makes you feel at ease
As you're raped by another monkey circus freak
'Cause its the big lies are more likely to be believed, believed

Yeah, holy water is rustin' me
Yeah, holy water is rustin' me
Yeah, holy water is rustin' me, is rustin' me
Rustin' me

Rustin' me
Rustin' me, yeah
Rustin' me

['stache 21,816]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

I personally believe that living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, to use your stated example. It’s no more a sin than any other sin that we as people engage in, but I do believe that as of press time, 2024.

I’m not dominated by a spirit of fear of it however, and can easily not let other people’s sin affect me. I think where you get the hatefulness and other stuff is those who are scared to death of the he sin others choose to engage in. My $0.02.

Shit like this is where you know it's all complete bullshit tailored to peoples' personal preferences. There is nothing objectively problematic or immoral (i.e., sinful) about being in love with someone of your own gender, or genuinely believing you were born of a different gender and taking actions to conform to one's genuine self. It's just a ruse to not like people you don't like. The last part is absolute horseshit as well, you say you can "easily not let other peoples' sin affect me," but will vote over and over and over again for politicians who make sure that people you don't like are prevented from living the same life as you. Complete and utter horseshit.

Edited June 14 by 'stache

['stache 21,816]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

The “Royal You”, of course, right?

[locodos 5,387]

25 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

The Bible is an incredible book. What the Bible is NOT, is a book to be read literally...

Duh!  Otherwise it's a real bitch to monetize

[BevoAbyss 2,059]

The Bible is a bunch of myths and fables … written in a tribal, pre-scientific era … for people to colonize and conquer others … to get meaning and purpose for their tribe and self … and feel good about it … and pretend they will live as a spirit-ghost for eternity.

There has never been any evidence for Genesis 1:1. Never. And never will be.

Humans created God in their own image. 

Edited June 14 by BevoAbyss

[MissingInAction 25,078]

I've met a ton of dudes from the Middle East due to working in IT the past 25 years.

Not one was ever named Luke, Matthew, Daniel, Paul, etc.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,871]

this is all great and you can believe or not believe whatever the hell you want. but the second this shit crosses (pun intended) into the public realm, the gloves are off. either retain your tax-exempt status and stay out of public policy or if you want to be able to exert influence, then pay to play. it's way past time we started enforcing this basic tenet of our constitution. a lot of time is spent talking about the amendments, but this basic premise was baked into the original document. I know I'm speaking to a deaf audience on this one, but this is the only way to prevent christofascists from taking over.

[Willfully Horn 8,017]

4 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

This is certainly a philosphy. But it's not a Christian one.

Seems that these dark forces are most easily identified in corporate greed. Think of Christ in the temple. Certainly not in your neighbor, whom we are to love exactly as we love ourselves. What a neighbor knows is true for themselves is as true as what we know about ourselves.

The Torah is the word of God, as are the red letters of the New Testament. The rest is commentary.  And God speaks in parables.

Edited June 14 by Willfully Horn

[BevoAbyss 2,059]

12 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

but the second this shit crosses (pun intended) into the public realm, the gloves are off.

Exactly. That’s why the first line in the First Amendment says:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion …"

That means … and can only mean … freedom from religion precedes freedom of religion. 

Regarding the Bill of Rights … freedom from religion has primacy and is the ultimate starting point … for any freedom in America, including religious freedom. 

Of course, all those Bible-thumping constitutionalist “originalists” will conveniently ignore this original line to justify building their theocracy.

Edited June 14 by BevoAbyss

[Gatorubet 30,239]

24 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Fair enough! I’m no earthly good in these conversations and I can assure you many of my peers are uncomfortable with my level of “don’t give a crap” when it comes to culture wars, but for myself, I will give Caesar what I should and submit to the authorities where I live, and I’ll pilgrimage when or if things become too heavy a burden to bear.

Unless you are telling your “peers” that their homophobic agenda is false hateful crap, and that they are hateful, terrible people for pursuing their warped agendas against gay and trans people and women, you are just somebody who hangs with Nazis and votes for Nazis - while pointing out that you are personally above the stupid culture wars about Jews back stabbing the war.  Your defense of the hateful thing you believe is not mitigated by saying you don’t get as excited about it as much as the other people in your church who carry torches.   

I admire your attempt to be viewed as something like hateful light.  

But as I have a gay son, who I have known was gay before he reached puberty, your perfect right to ‘not give a crap’ about culture wars also means you don’t give a crap about how much hatred is directed toward gay people like my son by your church and its members and the politicians they support - who do view him as sinful.  Just like you do.  Because you admitted that a few post up.  So we are done here.

[BevoAbyss 2,059]

27 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Some might argue that The Big Bang Theory (astrophysics, not cbs sitcom) is an explanation (or as best as we have, for now) for Gen 1. 

Sorry dude, you’re 100% incorrect. I am sure some theists say that to pretend their creationist fables have merit in the 21st century universe unveiled by NASA and the world’s scientists. The Big Bang is based on the best available empirical evidence gathered from the world’s most powerful telescopes across 100 years. (I am confident we will eventually discover what existed prior to … or caused … the Big Bang. And it won’t be an invisible Sky Daddy.)

If by “some might argue," you mean scientists and astrophysicists … well they are incorrect … as most scientists/astrophysicists are utterly weak-ass philosophers who would benefit mightily from some basic courses in existentialist philosophy (esp, Sartre’s irrefutable ontology), philosophy of science, logic, etc. But, alas, secular philosophy has marginalized itself into irrelevance. Hence the dominance of religion.

As for God: Humans created God (or any Creator) with absolute zero empirical evidence. Pure invention in a pre-scientific era.

Edited June 14 by BevoAbyss

[WhatTheBuck 28,783]

2 hours ago, Bookman said:

So why do you think the Bible is the Word of God? 

It says so!

QED

[Bookman 4,639]

I don’t understand how anyone can read the Bible and think God had anything to do with it.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,871]

Just now, Bookman said:

I don’t understand how anyone can read the Bible and think God had anything to do with it.

[BevoAbyss 2,059]

45 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

What did you interpret him to mean when he said " staring into the Abyss and the Abyss stares back"

I assume you are referring to Nietzsche’s famed quote. In my view, it cannot be understand outside his most important concepts (IMHO).

Nietzsche was wise enough to realize that Galileo/Darwin/evolution made irrelevant the need for any God to explain our existence in a vast and ancient universe, as unveiled by science and telescopes. He saw that the wonders of industrialization (electricity, steam engines, etc) also made God irrelevant to the emerging powers of human-created technology. Hence, his phrase "God is dead.” 

And because God is dead … due to evolution, science, technology… humanity found itself to be a “rope over an abyss” … astride the abyss between the ape and the superman (the next phase of human evolution). No, not some Aryan or Marxist Superman or Superman-Superhero. Just next major phase of philosophical evolution.

It seems clear to me that Nietzsche knew that secular philosophy faced a huge challenge to finding meaning and purpose for humanity — now dislodged from the center of the universe. A universe ancient, from which we evolved, a universe vast in which we are not central.

So, here we are 130 years later, and Nietzsche’s challenge has yet to be met, at least with regard to a popular secular narrative that unites the human species with meaning and purpose in the scientific universe — to span the abyss into the next phase of human evolution. Secularism has delivered a planetary Consumer Society … while Science-Fiction, Superheroes, Star Trek, Star Wars, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk (etc.) are our alleged guides to the secular future in a vast universe. 

Naturally, religion/theology also sees the abyss …. and utterly terrified of being insignificant and non-central … promises a narcissistic return to cosmic centrality and eternity for the believers …the supposed “good people” …  along with the mass violence of fascism and theocracy imposed on the non-central, non-special, non-good people.

TLDR: So far, secular philosophy has yet to deliver that widely popular narrative to get us over the abyss. Thus, the abyss is there and we are staring into it… and we see our lack of philosophy in it. We’re still astride the abyss. (BevoAbyss is happy there and works toward a sane secular future in his career. I’m out of this discussion, it’s going nowhere, same old stuff as usual)

Edited June 14 by BevoAbyss

[MissingInAction 25,078]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

I think you are kidding, but:

Ibrahim is the ME deriviation of Abraham.

Ishaq/Isaac

Dawud or Dahood/David

Maryam/Mary

etc.

Wtf does this even mean?

Again with the double speak, and you don't even realize you're doing it.

Edited June 14 by MissingInAction

[Iowa Horn 55]

3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I just meant that, this italicized below which is the only small paragraph I replied with and is verbatim a biblical quote, was considered to be word salad.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

This verse is cryptic at best, verging on unintelligible.  So yeah, a word salad.  Consider this: from an uninformed person looking in and asking for an explanation of what is meant by things like "spiritual warfare" and the word of God being a sword (which to someone who hasn't been raised around such concepts, can be quite confusing and rather alarming), quoting the Bible verbatim it isn't very helpful.

For - this indicates a follow-on or concluding statement is being made based on a whole bunch of other explanation that came before it, but without that context, there's confusion right off the bat.

our struggle - is this about a particular struggle happening at that time, like persecution of believers?  Or is this more philosophical, like general struggles any time we start feeling like life is always an uphill climb and nothing's going our way?

flesh and blood - first thought is this refers to how the struggle doesn't involve physical fighting or face-to-face interactions, but then it occurred to me "flesh and blood" could be referring to family (our own flesh and blood) or a family of fellow believers.  Knowing who this refers to would help resonate what is meant by the struggle against rulers (who after all, are also flesh and blood), etc.

against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers - ...who were persecuting believers? or just in general?  Either way, I guess the point is Christians should be prepared for and unsurprised by struggles imposed by rulers and authorities and the powers that be (so it is what it is, don't sweat it?)?

dark world - sounds ominous.  Still trying to unpack, though, and the meaning is not self evident.

spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms - ah, here's the spiritual warfare part (maybe?).  Well, it hasn't gotten to the fighting back part yet, just the existence of supernatural enemies.  Presumably later in Ephesians it goes on to talk about how to combat these various causes of struggles, including but not limited to the heavenly spiritual forces (maybe by praying? or taking comfort by reading the word of God? or outright taking action using the Word as a weapon, like exorcism style commands or some other way to go on offense instead of defense?)?

I think a lot of people get frustrated when answers to their questions are "go read XXX X:X".  For a believer, it is sacred text and it has the ultimate credibility, so they're going to infer as much wisdom out of it as possible, and lo and behold: the verse is crystal clear and unambiguous!  But when read on its face by a curious person, even who earnestly wants to know more, it ought to be a fair critique to call passages like this a word salad.

[nbmishoid 949]

16 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Very fair criticism, thanks for going through the exercise and sharing this perspective. You know, I’ve gotten some PM’s from people appreciative of this conversation who I’ve never seen or heard of before, so all y'all's great posts are being read, reflected upon, synthesized, etc.

Fine, but no gay hating.  Just try being an anti racist, as in the terms of that book.

[Pancho 44,804]

People who think being gay is a sin are the biggest hypocrites to walk the Earth, especially if they say they don’t like the person they just dislike the sin. 

Since when are there degrees of sin that are worse than others?

Also, why are you trying to make laws again one sin (being gay) but not the other sin you claim you and others engage in? 

And isn’t judgment a sin itself?