To__ Orlan_o - _efensive Coor_inator

[Sejjr 3,250]

I am at a point now where I really don't think there is an obvious "elite" defensive coordinator in college football. Rule changes, and the rise of the spread as well as the proliferation of mobile quarterbacks have largely made defense a fucking nightmare to coordinate and call. The only real hope is to out-recruit and out-talent your opponent, and that is our best hope moving forward. We can play musical DC every fucking year or, despite what Paul Waddlington, Ian Boyd, and fucking 6th Street think they know about defense, realize we have a pretty good DC in Todd Orlando who had a bad fucking day against a team full of NFL players. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Sejjr

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

13 minutes ago, Sejjr said:

I am at a point now where I really don't think there is an obvious "elite" defensive coordinator in college football. Rule changes, and the rise of the spread as well as the proliferation of mobile quarterbacks have largely made defense a fucking nightmare to coordinate and call. The only real hope is to out-recruit and out-talent your opponent, and that is our best hope moving forward. We can play musical DC every fucking year or, despite what Paul Waddlington, Ian Boyd, and fucking 6th Street think they know about defense, realize we have a pretty good DC in Todd Orlando who had a bad fucking day against a team full of NFL players. 

Wait a minute, are you trying to tell me that Todd Orlando isn’t just a guy who calls random plays and has no clue how to teach defense even though he’s had a top 30 defense the majority of the years he’s been a DC???

well, I am shocked.

 

[XYZ 2,154]

4 hours ago, Katfid54 said:

This is dumb.  We have several of them.

BJ Foster, Caden Sterns, Joseph Ossai

Game changers? No, we don’t have several of them, not on defense.

[Machinator 32,102]

Ossai and maybe Chris Brown are the only difference makers on defense right now.

[George Clooney 378]

2 hours ago, Katfid54 said:

What "good" DCs are out there that have a shown a propensity for stopping or limiting the nouveau spread offenses of the last 5 or so years?  Even Bama got buzzsawed for most of the semifinal last year against OU.

Obviously Patterson.  Other than him... maybe Heacock at Iowa State?  Venables at Clemson?  Pete Kwiatkowski (Washington has had Leach's number for the past several years)?

Jimmy Lake is in charge of the UW defense now.

[Yesh 961]

I agree there is a trend with Orlando not doing well against spread offenses and he hasn't done enough to modify his play calling or understanding his personnel weaknesses.  But, along the lines of how difficult it is to defend competent spread attacks, consider the following.

 

LSU has more talent on defense, more experience, and a highly regarded coordinator in Aranda.

The only "stop" LSU got on defense in the second half was when we chose to kick a FG on 4th and 9.  3 plays earlier it was a LSU blitz on 1st down that got Texas behind the chains and led to the "stop".

The previous 3 TD drives by Texas in the second half did not have a sack by LSU.

The 3 and out with less than 2 minutes in the first half had a sack on 3rd down with a 4 man rush.  There was a stunt and the end came free up the middle.

 

I'm not going to defend the blitz on the 3rd and 17, but I don't think it is crazy to say that against a competent spread attack that drives generally only end without a score if you get pressure.  I think the Texas offense itself is a great example of how you can march down the field if given 3 tries to execute the offense and get 10 yards.  Orgeron admitted that if we got the ball back they wouldn't have been able to stop us.

 

I think the solution is to look at how we are getting pressure, or trying and failing to get pressure.  If you blitz the nickel and don't have someone else fill the gap a competent QB/WR will hit the hot route.  If a safety is getting stonewalled maybe you trade off exotic blitzes from different directions with a bigger stronger guy.

[The Whistler 14]

Damn.  This has been one of the best football discussion threads so far on Surly.   Not saying you guys know what you're talking about (bc fuck you guys!) but at least y'all aren't throwing personal jabs; but instead, providing some substance while looking for answers before downright conviction.  Definitely helps to have the level headed "Negavtive 6th Street" posters (personal jab there) induce some positivity.  Carry on, folks!  

[The Whistler 14]

21 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

Thx for this @Machinator

T.O. did take some responsibility for poor defensive results in lsu game...

 

Do we still have chat transcripts for media availability like during mackbrown-texasfootball.com?   These fucking reporter questions without mics -- wtf how long has this been going on.  I thought CDC addressed that.  Anyway,  if anyone has been to texassports.com, you know how fucking shitty the user interface is (probably worthy of it's own thread).  Honest question here.

Edited September 13, 2019 by The Whistler

[Pantiesdrawer 4]

Todd Orlando's defenses have provided so many all time great moments for opposing programs. Those games will air over and over again on their local version of LHN. WVU 2018 stands out for me as a particularly painful shitshow. 

[gmr548 16,681]

What's interesting about the Orlando media availability, or at least interesting to me that it hasn't blown up on this board, is that Orlando basically admits word for word that he was trying to win the game right there on 3rd and 17. That is one of the primary critiques of both that call and the way he calls the defense at large. And he says he'd do it again.

I don't think we're going to see any major philosophical shift.

[dcar00 14,909]

the right call was some type of zone coverage  with 6 or 7 defenders that would have our athletes(who are not good man to man cover guys) running towards a receiver short of the sticks.  if Burrows makes a throw over or through the zone coverage  you tip your hat.

we just needed the ball we didn't need a big play or sack.

Its almost like he didn't have a play call like that in his bag for 3rd and 17 and just rolled with a bring the house.  that is what disturbs me the most.

[ClubWhatever 12,277]

Do we haz potato DC?

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

48 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the right call was some type of zone coverage  with 6 or 7 defenders that would have our athletes(who are not good man to man cover guys) running towards a receiver short of the sticks.  if Burrows makes a throw over or through the zone coverage  you tip your hat.

we just needed the ball we didn't need a big play or sack.

Its almost like he didn't have a play call like that in his bag for 3rd and 17 and just rolled with a bring the house.  that is what disturbs me the most.

You think he doesn't have a zone coverage play where 6 or 7 guys drop in coverage?  

Well, you can sleep tight at night knowing you're most disturbing concern about our defense is unfounded. 

[dcar00 14,909]

then he should have fucking called it.  the call he made was high school...

[GringoSalado 1,652]

Fuck

[Jkwellborn 7,011]

Should have dropped everyone into coverage. Had some guys close to the marker. One spy to kill Burrows if he ran.

[Zavala 1,384]

1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

then he should have fucking called it.  the call he made was high school...

Pressure was great there, coverage not so much, but it was a split second throw bouncing off his O linemen to avoid the sack.

 

Looked like the pressure was gonna get there, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way. That's why it's an oblong shape..

[runthebone 8,325]

9 hours ago, Machinator said:

Ossai and maybe Chris Brown are the only difference makers on defense right now.

Because of a lack of talent or bad coaching?

I think it's coaching.

[Fozzz 152]

9 hours ago, gmr548 said:

What's interesting about the Orlando media availability, or at least interesting to me that it hasn't blown up on this board, is that Orlando basically admits word for word that he was trying to win the game right there on 3rd and 17. That is one of the primary critiques of both that call and the way he calls the defense at large. And he says he'd do it again.

I don't think we're going to see any major philosophical shift.

Maybe someone should tell him that he coaches in the Big 12 now and not the AAC.  

[Slacks 7,034]

should be easy...

check for run. if not run, then...
generate presure with 4 or 5.
stop the qb from escaping (contain).
cover elligible receivers.
make the tackle.

what am i missing?

oh... recruit and train monsters with speed, football smarts, and consistency.

anything else?

ok, so what do we not have, seemingly every year?

consistent offense has been lacking since David Ash got concussed, so we couldnt keep up...

now, i think we can keep up, but it would be nice to force other teams to have to try to catch up, or at least struggle to score, in Q4.

we've had too many DCs and assistants fail for this to be purely coaching, but Greg Robinson seemed to be able to make things better when he stepped in... yet nobody had been able to figure out what or why... and I'm not convinced full time Greg Robinson wouldnt get figured out and exploited, too...

is the answer to score 70 a game? that sounds terrible.

[Nivek 17,363]

should be easy...

check for run. if not run, then...
generate presure with 4 or 5.
stop the qb from escaping (contain).
cover elligible receivers.
make the tackle.

what am i missing?

oh... recruit and train monsters with speed, football smarts, and consistency.

anything else?

ok, so what do we not have, seemingly every year?

consistent offense has been lacking since David Ash got concussed, so we couldnt keep up...

now, i think we can keep up, but it would be nice to force other teams to have to try to catch up, or at least struggle to score, in Q4.

we've had too many DCs and assistants fail for this to be purely coaching, but Greg Robinson seemed to be able to make things better when he stepped in... yet nobody had been able to figure out what or why... and I'm not convinced full time Greg Robinson wouldnt get figured out and exploited, too...

is the answer to score 70 a game? that sounds terrible.

So, you want the job?

[Machinator 32,102]

I'm surprised we don't keep a banner crew on standby.

[Machinator 32,102]

3 hours ago, runthebone said:

Because of a lack of talent or bad coaching?

I think it's coaching.

I think coaching is making our safeties look worse than they are, but we don't have many elite front 7 players yet. And our corners are inexperienced.

[LTtxfan 49,921]

1 hour ago, Machinator said:

I think coaching is making our safeties look worse than they are, but we don't have many elite front 7 players yet. And our corners are inexperienced.

Agree that safeties are not being used effectively.  Move Brandon back to safety so Caden doesn't have to play so passively.  Get Cook and Jamison more reps tomorrow.  Chris Brown and Josh Thompson should also get lots of reps vs Rice...

Also, get Caden out of the game early tomorrow so he can hopefully heal up for Okie Lite.

 

[Jkwellborn 7,011]

Yeah, seems like Jones biggest weakness is coverage and that’s something the NB need to be pretty good at.

[sith_horn 2,487]

3 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

Yeah, seems like Jones biggest weakness is coverage and that’s something the NB need to be pretty good at.

He made a really good play on the ball in the end zone. Some criticized him for not making the interception, but he prevented a catch for TD. A sample of one, but recent. Perhaps he is improving.

[Goodman 3,280]

13 hours ago, Pantiesdrawer said:

Todd Orlando's defenses have provided so many all time great moments for opposing programs. Those games will air over and over again on their local version of LHN. WVU 2018 stands out for me as a particularly painful shitshow. 

This. TO helped Burrow as he has many qb's. 

For me, this is on Coach Herman. He needed and should have hired experienced help to that Defense room in some capacity, analyst or not.

[gernblansten 3,254]

If he sits back in zone on 3 & 17 giving QB and WRs 8 seconds to break free and they pick up the first down everyone is yelling he should have blitzed to get the ball out quick before WRs can get 17 yards down field.

[BurdineBandit 823]

16 hours ago, Sejjr said:

I am at a point now where I really don't think there is an obvious "elite" defensive coordinator in college football. Rule changes, and the rise of the spread as well as the proliferation of mobile quarterbacks have largely made defense a fucking nightmare to coordinate and call. The only real hope is to out-recruit and out-talent your opponent, and that is our best hope moving forward. We can play musical DC every fucking year or, despite what Paul Waddlington, Ian Boyd, and fucking 6th Street think they know about defense, realize we have a pretty good DC in Todd Orlando who had a bad fucking day against a team full of NFL players. 

If this is the case, why is out-recruiting and out-talenting other offenses not a requirement for TCU and Iowa State, who have had better defenses than ours for 3 years running? We play the exact same schedules, and I can't imagine the 3 OOC games are really the complete difference.

[Jkwellborn 7,011]

He made a really good play on the ball in the end zone. Some criticized him for not making the interception, but he prevented a catch for TD. A sample of one, but recent. Perhaps he is improving.

That was an excellent play. Can’t see how anyone could fault him for not making that int.

[Sejjr 3,250]

8 minutes ago, gernblansten said:

If he sits back in zone on 3 & 17 giving QB and WRs 8 seconds to break free and they pick up the first down everyone is yelling he should have blitzed to get the ball out quick before WRs can get 17 yards down field.

And if McCullough didn't dance with that RB low block, or if he pulled a Roy Williams/Superman move, Burrow gets sacked and Orlando is a hero.

The call was shitty in hindsight, but giving Burrow any sort of time was clearly not working either. 

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

18 minutes ago, BurdineBandit said:

If this is the case, why is out-recruiting and out-talenting other offenses not a requirement for TCU and Iowa State, who have had better defenses than ours for 3 years running? We play the exact same schedules, and I can't imagine the 3 OOC games are really the complete difference.

Neither of those teams had better defenses in 2017.

It really is amazing to me how people not liking what Orlando’s do e this year or last year means 2017 just never happened in their heads.

[PilotsError 2,338]

OK fine it happened.  How does that affect this year?

[Sejjr 3,250]

18 minutes ago, BurdineBandit said:

If this is the case, why is out-recruiting and out-talenting other offenses not a requirement for TCU and Iowa State, who have had better defenses than ours for 3 years running? We play the exact same schedules, and I can't imagine the 3 OOC games are really the complete difference.

I get that people are impressed with some of the strategies Iowa State has implemented in the last year on defense to counter the spread. But claiming they have been better than Texas for 3 years is nonsense. They were 3-9 in 2016. They had the second worst statistical defense in the Big 12. The last 2 years they have given up nearly 50 points to Okie State. They aren't the fucking 85' Bears. 

And no, Texas is not yet where they need to be yet, but I believe we are getting much closer with this next recruiting class. In fact, I am pretty confident that had De'Gabriel Floyd been healthy and playing on that 3 and 17, that play probably works.

[dcar00 14,909]

I'm certainly not saying Orlando needs to be fired but I don't think he's the guy that is going to get us where we want to go in this conference.   The call was egregious given the situation, IMO.

He is light years better than the shitshow we rolled out previously because at least we look good against more traditional offenses and less competent spread attack teams.

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

6 minutes ago, PilotsError said:

OK fine it happened.  How does that affect this year?

Lulz. If you can’t figure out how people saying Orlando has never known what he’s doing his whole career or has never had a good defense at Texas is a bad foundation to work from on assessing Orlando’s current and future performance, then there’s no sense in having a discussion with you.  

From 2013 to 2017, Orlando fielded 4 top 25 defenses. It’s not like the guy has just always been shit and there’s no hope for him like people are trying to claim. 

[RollingPresidential 633]

Does anyone have any idea what's going on with Anthony Cook? 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

18 hours ago, Katfid54 said:

What "good" DCs are out there that have a shown a propensity for stopping or limiting the nouveau spread offenses of the last 5 or so years?  Even Bama got buzzsawed for most of the semifinal last year against OU.

Obviously Patterson.  Other than him... maybe Heacock at Iowa State?  Venables at Clemson?  Pete Kwiatkowski (Washington has had Leach's number for the past several years)?

Venables was getting his ass lit up in the Big 12 against spread teams.  It’s why he left and Bob brought Mike back.  

[Tex Long 4,626]

14 minutes ago, RollingPresidential said:

Does anyone have any idea what's going on with Anthony Cook? 

I think I read somewhere that Anthony is suffering from frost bite - prolly he spent too much time in the visitors' locker room.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

47 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Neither of those teams had better defenses in 2017.

It really is amazing to me how people not liking what Orlando’s do e this year or last year means 2017 just never happened in their heads.

To be fair Texas fans are pretty traumatized by, and quite tired of the one good defense and done DC's in Austin routine.

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

To be fair Texas fans are pretty traumatized by, and quite tired of the one good defense and done DC's in Austin routine.

I get it. I don’t like watching our defense get shredded either, and Orlando may need to go at the end of this year, but putting forth a bunch of false narratives about him just calling random plays from Aranda’s playbook or not having had success in years past isn’t helpful, either. 

[CurlyDumps 4,618]

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Lulz. If you can’t figure out how people saying Orlando has never known what he’s doing his whole career or has never had a good defense at Texas is a bad foundation to work from on assessing Orlando’s current and future performance, then there’s no sense in having a discussion with you.  

From 2013 to 2017, Orlando fielded 4 top 25 defenses. It’s not like the guy has just always been shit and there’s no hope for him like people are trying to claim. 

 Diaz had a great defense in 2011. Dumb and Dumber had the #9 and #11 ranked defenses in 2013/14. 

Texas fans more than anyone should not be pumping sunshine over past results, especially when there is an equally large sample size of mediocrity to draw upon.

 

[B00M 6,728]

It's funny, on review, the dropped TD early affected the our strategy and our total D and is still being felt in the hand wringing here. It should have been 14 (or 17) to 3 before LSU's offense found its footing. If it's 14(17)-13, I doubt we gift wrap them the possession to end the 1st half. Worst case we repeat the shit clock management sequence so it's 14-20 at half. Going into the 4th, it would've been 28-23, Texas, and while I'm sure our D would've still been torched in the 4th, we would've been far more deliberate on O. Even if we blow it at the end, the total yardage for each team would've been ~100 yards lower, looking a lot more respectable. Please forgive the aggy math.

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

12 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

 Diaz had a great defense in 2011. Dumb and Dumber had the #9 and #11 ranked defenses in 2013/14. 

Texas fans more than anyone should not be pumping sunshine over past results, especially when there is an equally large sample size of mediocrity to draw upon.

 

No one’s pumping sunshine about past results. Accurately stating them is a whole different matter. 

 

[Thiefery 5,108]

Patiently waiting til the Okie state game to see how the defense bounces back vs the best WR in the country and a really talented gunslinger.....

[Gravy Train 983]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

To be fair Texas fans are pretty traumatized by, and quite tired of the one good defense and done DC's in Austin routine.

Next man up, then.  Don't we have a coaching training camp established at Auburn?

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

5 minutes ago, Thiefery said:

Patiently waiting til the Okie state game to see how the defense bounces back vs the best WR in the country and a really talented gunslinger.....

I’ve set my expectations to see both teams break 50 in that game. 

[BurdineBandit 823]

2 hours ago, Sejjr said:

I get that people are impressed with some of the strategies Iowa State has implemented in the last year on defense to counter the spread. But claiming they have been better than Texas for 3 years is nonsense. They were 3-9 in 2016. They had the second worst statistical defense in the Big 12. The last 2 years they have given up nearly 50 points to Okie State. They aren't the fucking 85' Bears. 

And no, Texas is not yet where they need to be yet, but I believe we are getting much closer with this next recruiting class. In fact, I am pretty confident that had De'Gabriel Floyd been healthy and playing on that 3 and 17, that play probably works.

I only saw PPG and YPG, but apparently we were better in the S&P advanced whatever. Both did give up less yards and points, for whatever that's worth. Remember the point I was arguing was that you said the "only" hope was the out-talent and out-recruit the modern spread. Iowa State had 1 4-star recruit between 2014 and 2018. TCU, who has a much better defensive reputation, doesn't recruit on our level, yet performs better, or in the same league as us (as in 2017). I don't agree with that "hope". I think it's just flat undercoaching on our campus, especially with our talent.

 

[Burt Macklin 19,222]

Just now, BurdineBandit said:

I only saw PPG and YPG, but apparently we were better in the S&P advanced whatever. Both did give up less yards and points, for whatever that's worth. Remember the point I was arguing was that you said the "only" hope was the out-talent and out-recruit the modern spread. Iowa State had 1 4-star recruit between 2014 and 2018. TCU, who has a much better defensive reputation, doesn't recruit on our level, yet performs better, or in the same league as us (as in 2017). I don't agree with that "hope". I think it's just flat undercoaching on our campus, especially with our talent.

 

Well, TCU isn’t replicable so good luck with that. Otherwise, you’re talking about a single outlier that’s only occurred for two seasons. The reality is the pool of DCs who are good against these types of offenses is extremely limited and the odds of finding one of those guys with a new hire are a lot lower than finding someone who can’t hack it.

[Ricky Butler 2,791]

3 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

I’ve set my expectations to see both teams break 50 in that game. 

Styles make fights, and I'm so happy we're finally playing in the best way to win the conference. Keep recruiting a juggernaut, but let's hoist a trophy this year.