9/11

[TreatyOak 16150]

One strange fact about the attack is that the North Tower was struck first, but the South Tower collapsed first. So the first responders based closest to the WTC survived, and the outlying units who responded to the second strike are the ones who died. Another unfortunate fact is that since the attack happened in the morning, the overnight crews were still at the stations and joined the morning shift and headed to the towers. So many stations suffered double the casualties. The station by our apartment (on East 65th street) lost 9 men and the one by my office (East 48th Street) lost 11.

Xavier HS is a Catholic school w lots of first responder families. They lost 60 parents. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

I guess this goes here?

[JimmyJames 12271]

56 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I guess this goes here?
 

Yeah he’s wasted.

[washparkhorn 9935]

Selling out to the Moonies is certainly on brand for the trump cabal. 

TIL the moonies continue to exist with up to two million members by some accounts.

Their website is professional. 

https://familyfed.org/

 

[Hermanator 6945]

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

[hpslugga 4044]

5 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

You are not alone 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20345]

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

I was beginning to get on the move on train. Then on 9/10 of this year I had the chance to buy a retired FDNY firefighter, who responded and stayed on site 36 hours straight, a beer. It was a genuine honor of a lifetime to do that and listen to his thoughts. He obviously hasn’t forgotten and never will, but he also had a healthy useful attitude to what happened and how to talk and think about.

We can do this the right way. It is possible.

[TreatyOak 16150]

I totally agree w @Hermanator and if we want to move on, and I certainly don't regard myself as an intellectual @Hank Scorpio, but I do have one funny story from 911.

Two days after the attack, we watched from our office windows high above Midtown that overlooked the UN Building (which had shooters on the roof) and the East River. Two dudes on WaveRunners came down the river, as they obviously planned to check out the damage to Lower Manhattan. Unfortunately for them, law enforcement wasn't screwing around, and as they passed by the UN, a big Coast Guard cutter (which I had never seen there before) pulled out and nearly ran them down. After being very nearly killed, and they soon found themselves splayed out on the deck with angry men pointing automatic weapons at their heads. They stayed in this unhappy position for around an hour as their backgrounds were, no doubt, investigated.

Apparently finally satisfied that they just two regular clowns, they were released and were soon heading back up-river at a very high rate-of-speed. We laughed as we imagined the "now you get back on your fucking boats and get the fuck out of here before we fucking shoot you for fun," talk they must have gotten.

Well, they didn't get to see the damage but they sure got a good story out of it.  

[Queen Bitch 1692]

11 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

Did you… did you bother reading the thread first or nah? 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

3 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

 

wow, did not see that one coming

[Brisketexan 104628]

I was beginning to get on the move on train. Then on 9/10 of this year I had the chance to buy a retired FDNY firefighter, who responded and stayed on site 36 hours straight, a beer. It was a genuine honor of a lifetime to do that and listen to his thoughts. He obviously hasn’t forgotten and never will, but he also had a healthy useful attitude to what happened and how to talk and think about.
We can do this the right way. It is possible.

No. It’s not. Not with the population and the dominant mentality that we had.

We love smoking dirty ragheads. It makes us feel super duper ‘Murican. It’s who are, and we like it.

3000 die every couple of days now, and we give zero fucks. Because we can’t bomb ragheads as revenge.

There’s lots of important stuff to learn from 9/11. We have learned none of it.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

 

I know there are a lot of people who detest 43. But that statement was strong, and I believe his speech that day was very well done. He isn't wrong.

[RomaVicta 29794]

12 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

You're speaking truth, and it's not an easy statement to make. We're already starting to beat this to death and use the day for promoting commerce. 

Let it go, America.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

15 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

I'm more or less here. It's a hurtful part of our past and any lessons we could have learned from it we haven't and it's way past time that we're going to. Anyone around 23 or younger has no memory of it. It's not significant to them like it was to many of us. but it gets a certain crowd riled up and they buy shit, so might as well commodify it. It is what we do best, anyway.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Longhorn_Fan68

[Fletch 5799]

17 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Am I the only one who feels like I lived through 9/11, I've lived through what the country has become in the 20 years after 9/11, and I'm past ready to just put in the past and move on without looking back. I don't like hearing or talking about it anymore. It was a horrible tragedy but shit just the last year alone a deadly pandemic has killed off over 200x as many Americans as 9/11 did. We have bigger problems to worry about now. 

I wish I could. I was 8 when it happens. We were supposed to move to upstate New York but shit happened. But we visited nyc multiple times. Even stayed there for a month. We went to both towers multiple times. To this day I’m still shocked and emotional about that day. The years after, I was constantly drawing the twin towers in art class, soaking up all the info I could about that tragic day. It’ll always haunt me. The first responders were true American badasses. Everyone around ground zero that day was showed the courage and loyalty we share for a fellow man. Never forget. World changing event that still brings a tear to my eye this day. Oh and I kinda hated W but this was so awesome, so American, the president out there throwing a first pitch shortly after a massive terrorist attack. Just an awesome unifying all American moment. 
 

 

[aggie08 21434]

^^^ and can you imagine if he threw it in the dirt or air-mailed the catcher. Dude threw a fucking strike with the entire world looking to him to convey strength. 

Probably the only good thing he did as a response to 9/11.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Bush could have been a great president. Invade Afghanistan, killed osama bin Ladin, and done what Biden is currently trying to do by building up American infrastructure. 

Instead he let osama go, invaded iraq, wasted trillions, and let the republicans destroy the American economy by exacerbating and accelerating the divisions between us. 
 

Such a loss. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

One wants to believe it was virtuous. Men of god and men of war have strange affinities.

It was our hubris when we backed the arab rebels in Afghanistan against the USSR during the apex of the Cold War. They wanted to kill commie infidels. We helped them. 

Commies are one thing. Religious zealots operate in a public sphere alien to most. We mobilized our attackers - trained them. And the Soviets skedaddled out of Afghanistan scared of them.

They next became focused on the power of the oil fields if there were no superpowers in the region. Kuwait stoked the fire with our presence. We were dictating policy using military force.

Troops on Saudi soil insulted the fundamentalist (primitivist) hell fire and brimstone religious leaders - and . . .

9/11 is the response from that which we spawned on the world - and ourselves. So much lost reputation for a nation that survives on reputation in the modern global economic world. 

We can project military force over the horizon. I have little doubt we will continue to project hard and soft power in this region. 

If I could go back in time, I would have let the Soviets stalemate in Afghanistan. Those people did not need our help. 

9/11 will always be a tragic event in our nation's psyche. We lost so many on that day - and in the years that followed. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by washparkhorn

[Fletch 5799]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

^^^ and can you imagine if he threw it in the dirt or air-mailed the catcher. Dude threw a fucking strike with the entire world looking to him to convey strength. 

Probably the only good thing he did as a response to 9/11.

He was gonna throw it where the mound meets the grass, Jeter told him he’d he get booed if he did that. So he fired a perfect strike in an amazing moment 

[High Plains Drifter 10978]

On 9/11/2021 at 9:46 AM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I concur that we should never forget the victims of 9/11, but we should also never forget the way their deaths were cynically exploited as a pretext for disastrous invasions that were built on lies, nor should we ever forget the liars or how they were permitted to get away with it.


 

 

AND lets not forget how we completely botched the Afghanistan war, turning a civilian populace that was initially on our side and against the Taliban into an insurgency that ended up killing even more Americans than 9/11, cost 2 trillion dollars, and resulted in the Taliban being stronger than ever 20 years later.

and that doesn't even include the Iraq debacle.

 

Also, every one in that picture should be in prison for war crimes/crimes against humanity. (I'm not sure who the two guys between Rice and Rumsfield are, but toss them in too just to be sure.)

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

The standing guy is Andy Card, W’s Chief of Staff. The whispering guy on 9/11.



Sitting guy is George Tenet, he was the CIA Director.

[Starfleet Command 441]

This is a fantastic read. Can’t recommend Peter Dale Scott’s work enough. 
 

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2021/09/11/the-twenty-year-shadow-of-9-11-u-s-complicity-in-the-terror-spectacle-and-the-urgent-need-to-end-it/

[TreatyOak 16150]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

One wants to believe it was virtuous. Men of god and men of war have strange affinities.

It was our hubris when we backed the arab rebels in Afghanistan against the USSR during the apex of the Cold War. They wanted to kill commie infidels. We helped them. 

Commies are one thing. Religious zealots operate in a public sphere alien to most. We mobilized our attackers - trained them. And the Soviets skedaddled out of Afghanistan scared of them.

They next became focused on the power of the oil fields if there were no superpowers in the region. Kuwait stoked the fire with our presence. We were dictating policy using military force.

Troops on Saudi soil insulted the fundamentalist (primitivist) hell fire and brimstone religious leaders - and . . .

9/11 is the response from that which we spawned on the world - and ourselves. So much lost reputation for a nation that survives on reputation in the modern global economic world. 

We can project military force over the horizon. I have little doubt we will continue to project hard and soft power in this region. 

If I could go back in time, I would have let the Soviets stalemate in Afghanistan. Those people did not need our help. 

9/11 will always be a tragic event in our nation's psyche. We lost so many on that day - and in the years that followed. 

Ehhh, no, we didn’t cause or deserve the attacK on 911. Those wonderful people who throw gay people off buildings, throw acid in little girls faces for the crime of wanting to go to school and who would be happy to see the world return to the 7th century did it. We do a lot of bad things but 911 wasn’t one of them.  

[washparkhorn 9935]

1 hour ago, TreatyOak said:

Ehhh, no, we didn’t cause or deserve the attacK on 911. Those wonderful people who throw gay people off buildings, throw acid in little girls faces for the crime of wanting to go to school and who would be happy to see the world return to the 7th century did it. We do a lot of bad things but 911 wasn’t one of them.  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

The motivation for the attack according to OBL. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by washparkhorn

[TreatyOak 16150]

3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

The motivation for the attack according to OBL. 

As someone who personally experienced the horror of it in Manhattan including the loss of a friend, I’ll let you handle the academic debates written by earnest, well-meaning journalists. I’ll just remember how extremists launched a horrific, unprovoked attack on my home that murdered people from many countries who were just trying to lead good lives. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by TreatyOak

[washparkhorn 9935]

Saving future innocents from unnecessary death, disability and suffering is the point. This attack did not appear out of thin air. The goal is to prevent it from happening again. That is an active mission for the United States. That has not ended (and probably never will). We citizens gave up so civil and criminal liberty so 9/11 would not happen again.

We, as a nation do all of that because of the victims of 9/11. To prevent more 9/11-style attacks. 9/11 transformed us. 

There is no harm looking at policy decisions that created such animosity. Had we done it pre-9/11, we may have been better protected. 

Rubble makes trouble. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by washparkhorn

[TreatyOak 16150]

47 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Saving future innocents from unnecessary death, disability and suffering is the point. This attack did not appear out of thin air. The goal is to prevent it from happening again. That is an active mission for the United States. That has not ended (and probably never will). We citizens gave up so civil and criminal liberty so 9/11 would not happen again.

We, as a nation do all of that because of the victims of 9/11. To prevent more 9/11-style attacks. 9/11 transformed us. 

There is no harm looking at policy decisions that created such animosity. Had we done it pre-9/11, we may have been better protected. 

Rubble makes trouble. 

I do agree with you that this will never end. We've been beating each other up for the thousands of years and that will never change. And, of course we should continue to evaluate what we do as nation to improve. At least women had rights while we were in Afghanistan-just wait what to see what those idiots will do. I do draw the line when you indirectly victim-blame me, my wife, children, friends, co-workers and residents of NYC that directly experienced 911 by stating that our nation had anything whatsoever to do with this. This as perpetrated by 7th century cretins who deserve 100% of the blame.

And to the "move on" crowd, I have documented many of the things my family, friends and I experienced during the attack in NYC, but we have certainly moved on. I didn't watch one second of those stupid tributes. (I do recommend the terrific Spike Lee 911 documentary series on HBO Max.) But we never forget. 

[RomaVicta 29794]

2 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

I do agree with you that this will never end. We've been beating each other up for the thousands of years and that will never change. And, of course we should continue to evaluate what we do as nation to improve. At least women had rights while we were in Afghanistan-just wait what to see what those idiots will do. I do draw the line when you indirectly victim-blame me, my wife, children, friends, co-workers and residents of NYC that directly experienced 911 by stating that our nation had anything whatsoever to do with this. This as perpetrated by 7th century cretins who deserve 100% of the blame.

And to the "move on" crowd, I have documented many of the things my family, friends and I experienced during the attack in NYC, but we have certainly moved on. I didn't watch one second of those stupid tributes. (I do recommend the terrific Spike Lee 911 documentary series on HBO Max.) But we never forget. 

You're conflating personal experience with national experience. Nobody has written a word blaming those who died or those who suffered as a result of the attack for anything. 

Your posts actually support the point that flogging this as a national Never Forget Anniversary cheapens actual grief, anger, and the other feelings of those directly affected that I can only guess at.

I'm not saying you personally need to let it go. I wouldn't expect you to, nor would I presume to set a schedule for your very real feelings to abate.

You describe a personal experience. The national experience is less personal. To what extent were we still mourning (nationally) the losses of Pearl Harbor on Pear Harbor Day? There were and are still commemorations, but it's not made into a national spectacle. Wrestlemania has never had a Pearl Harbor Day commemoration as far as I know.

The things we decry are actually exploiting the real memory and experience of that day. I feel as though I'm being prodded to fraudulently claim the same feeling you have. It's insulting to both of us.

I believe your story. I believe your descriptions of your feelings. I respect them. I won't defile them by claiming them as my own or by participating in the balleyhooing of them to promote other things.

I wish you well. I hope the path that terrible day set you upon goes as well as it possibly can.

[TreatyOak 16150]

6 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You're conflating personal experience with national experience. Nobody has written a word blaming those who died or those who suffered as a result of the attack for anything. 

Your posts actually support the point that flogging this as a national Never Forget Anniversary cheapens actual grief, anger, and the other feelings of those directly affected that I can only guess at.

I'm not saying you personally need to let it go. I wouldn't expect you to, nor would I presume to set a schedule for your very real feelings to abate.

You describe a personal experience. The national experience is less personal. To what extent were we still mourning (nationally) the losses of Pearl Harbor on Pear Harbor Day? There were and are still commemorations, but it's not made into a national spectacle. Wrestlemania has never had a Pearl Harbor Day commemoration as far as I know.

The things we decry are actually exploiting the real memory and experience of that day. I feel as though I'm being prodded to fraudulently claim the same feeling you have. It's insulting to both of us.

I believe your story. I believe your descriptions of your feelings. I respect them. I won't defile them by claiming them as my own or by participating in the balleyhooing of them to promote other things.

I wish you well. I hope the path that terrible day set you upon goes as well as it possibly can.

Thanks. I like your response, and I respect what @washparkhorn wrote, as well. I agree that we have, typically, exploited 911 for various commercial reasons, cause America. It started with the dude selling me an American pin on Chambers Street soon after the attack and the NFL's ugly, self-congratulatory antics as they restarted the season that year. 

But there are posts here that claim it's "our fault" that we were attacked. That's going to be a problem with me, as I am a part of "our." The people who attacked us have never offered the world anything of value except destruction. Zero. No plan to govern, to help others, at all. They attacked us cause that's what they do, period. They are good at killing and destroying, and nothing else. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Sounds like there is about to be new noise about a fifth plane, United flight 23 that failed to take off on 9/11.  In the abstract it wouldn’t shock me if there was more hijackers/terrorists but I also don’t believe that our govt could have prevented that from being discovered. 

[Bullneck 18987]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11874023/Was-FIFTH-9-11-plane-Crew-United-23-reveal-767-raided-FBI-grounded.html

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

42 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11874023/Was-FIFTH-9-11-plane-Crew-United-23-reveal-767-raided-FBI-grounded.html

Thanks. A lot of “I heard …” in that story. Like that a nearby grounded plane had box cutters discovered later on.  Then the speculation is that someone in support of the terrorists planted the box cutters on the wrong plane. While not impossible that is a stretch with no proof including if box cutters were really found  

were there suspicious people on that plane? Maybe as there are weird people anywhere.

to me the biggest unknowns still are how the govt has continually downplayed Saudi Arabians roles if not flat out refuse to release the info. Will it make SA look bad? Well too bad.

[Hermanator 6945]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 the biggest unknowns still are how the govt has continually downplayed Saudi Arabians roles if not flat out refuse to release the info. Will it make SA look bad? Well too bad.

 

[Celery Man 20886]

saw a guy the other day in a truck that was bedecked in all manner of bumper stickers and decals, and extremely prominent on the back was a decal of the two towers. And i found myself wondering if he even remembers that those towers contained a bunch of New York liberals and jews.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:19 PM, Bullneck said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11874023/Was-FIFTH-9-11-plane-Crew-United-23-reveal-767-raided-FBI-grounded.html

“Was this the FIFTH 9/11 plane?”

That’s how that article starts. That’s a question. That’s not reporting, that’s sensationalism. The answer is no. If the answer were yes, they’d report that it was the fifth plane. The terrorists on board would’ve been arrested and identified. We’d know their intended target. We’d know where they trained and how they were funded just like we know about all of the actual hijackers and the one that didn’t make it onto a plane. These guys all believed in the righteousness of their cause and were thoroughly convinced that their personal salvation was waiting for them on the other side. They were true believers. Those guys don’t deny their intentions. They’re proud of them.

The attacks were thoroughly investigated and we know the who, what, when, where, why, and how. I don’t watch programs or read articles that ask questions. Don’t ask me, tell me. I want to be informed. Too many people allow themselves to be deceived by assuming the answer must be yes when someone is “just asking questions” and that’s the whole point of that tactic. See Tucker Carlson, e.g.

I’m not watching that show. I can spot tabloid sensationalism. They should have Geraldo Rivera hosting it.

[Bullneck 18987]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

“Was this the FIFTH 9/11 plane?”

That’s how that article starts. That’s a question. That’s not reporting, that’s sensationalism. The answer is no. If the answer were yes, they’d report that it was the fifth plane. The terrorists on board would’ve been arrested and identified. We’d know their intended target. We’d know where they trained and how they were funded just like we know about all of the actual hijackers and the one that didn’t make it onto a plane. These guys all believed in the righteousness of their cause and were thoroughly convinced that their personal salvation was waiting for them on the other side. They were true believers. Those guys don’t deny their intentions. They’re proud of them.

The attacks were thoroughly investigated and we know the who, what, when, where, why, and how. I don’t watch programs or read articles that ask questions. Don’t ask me, tell me. I want to be informed. Too many people allow themselves to be deceived by assuming the answer must be yes when someone is “just asking questions” and that’s the whole point of that tactic. See Tucker Carlson, e.g.

I’m not watching that show. I can spot tabloid sensationalism. They should have Geraldo Rivera hosting it.

"Retweets are not endorsements."

Someone mentioned the story - an angle I'd never heard about previously - so I found the story and posted it.  

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

10 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

"Retweets are not endorsements."

Someone mentioned the story - an angle I'd never heard about previously - so I found the story and posted it.  

I didn’t take it as an endorsement. I only just heard about the show recently and didn’t pay it any mind because if there was a fifth plane that never left the ground, we would’ve heard about it. It wouldn’t be in anyone’s interest to cover it up. This was the first time I had occasion to look into it and it predictably turned out to be the obvious non-story I assumed it was.