What, no Joe Manchin thread?

[David Dennison 18,856]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes.  It’s the rich who rely on the government.  
 

The rich rely on the government more than anyone.

[High Plains Drifter 11,047]

On 12/19/2021 at 11:59 AM, David Dennison said:

But he has power.

Give him what he wants, pass the bill, and move on.

 

what does he want?

 

[Bullneck 19,084]

28 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The rich rely on the government more than anyone.

[Satchel 6,938]

1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

And yet, he’s against subsidies for the little people.

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

15 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

The guy who just paid $11bn in taxes tho?

[Neonmoon 38,129]

The rich rely on the government the most. Without patent protection, businesses would never grow. Without infrastructure, businesses could not thrive. Without enforcement of laws created by the rich, the workers would unionize. The list go on and on. 

[David Dennison 18,856]

22 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

what does he want?

If the Washington Post is to be believed, Manchin’s proposal included universal pre-kindergarten, an expansion of the Affordable Care Act, and hundreds of billions of dollars in green energy spending, all totaling the promised $1.8 trillion.

 

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

The rich rely on the government the most. Without patent protection, businesses would never grow. Without infrastructure, businesses could not thrive. Without enforcement of laws created by the rich, the workers would unionize. The list go on and on. 

Agree. I’d say the most fundamental way is that, without the government protection of the military the rich would never be secure and always a target. We take that for granted.

[Goofyboy 3,292]

I saw a tweet that apparently Biden and Manchin had a conversation late last night.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If the Washington Post is to be believed, Manchin’s proposal included universal pre-kindergarten, an expansion of the Affordable Care Act, and hundreds of billions of dollars in green energy spending, all totaling the promised $1.8 trillion.

 

I would say right now everyone is lying and spinning. So who knows what’s true. 

[David Dennison 18,856]

4 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I would say right now everyone is lying and spinning. So who knows what’s true. 

Making the sausage.

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

39 minutes ago, MonkeyCigarette said:

The guy who just paid $11bn in taxes tho?

Less than 10% of his earnings last year. Go ahead, stand up and get the dirt off your knees.

[Satchel 6,938]

Why will this be viewed as the fault of Joe Manchin and not of the 50 Republicans who won’t even engage in the process? Why do they get off scott free?

[Bama Chick 28,596]

So MonkeyCigarette = Donkey Cigar?

[Goofyboy 3,292]

Why will this be viewed as the fault of Joe Manchin and not of the 50 Republicans who won’t even engage in the process? Why do they get off scott free?

They aren’t. The narrative is picking up that the GOP let’s kids go hungry, hates the sick and the elderly. The problem is that it is the same narrative. At least this time Democrats can point to an actual bill and say “SEE!!!”

[Neonmoon 38,129]

8 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Why will this be viewed as the fault of Joe Manchin and not of the 50 Republicans who won’t even engage in the process? Why do they get off scott free?

We all hate the machines in the matrix, but they’re machines, of course they’re trying to wipe out free humans. That is expected. What we really fucking hate is Cypher, because he betrayed his own kind for greed. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Neonmoon

[Satchel 6,938]

3 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

They aren’t. The narrative is picking up that the GOP let’s kids go hungry, hates the sick and the elderly.

Where have you heard that narrative? It’s mostly been about Manchin.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Satchel

[workswithseed 2,103]

9 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

So MonkeyCigarette = Donkey Cigar?

He believes in UBI. I doubt GRU wants it.

[Bullneck 19,084]

15 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

So MonkeyCigarette = Donkey Cigar?

Based on that analysis, I negged both his posts just to be sure.

[Satchel 6,938]

1 hour ago, MonkeyCigarette said:

The guy who just paid $11bn in taxes tho?

Yep. While $11 billion is an unthinkably large number by any standards of personal finance, it pales in comparison to Musk’s wealth gain in 2021, which amounts to $87 billion, according to Bloomberg Billionaires Index. His total fortune last stood at $243 billion.

[DDD Dad 14,338]

He believes in UBI. I doubt GRU wants it.

GRU isn’t DC.

DC is Chrispy. Or swam. Or Tahoe. Or all of them.

[Incredulity 11,669]

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

Less than 10% of his earnings last year. Go ahead, stand up and get the dirt off your knees.

Show your work.

He didn’t have 110 billion in, “earnings” last year.

 

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

Last year? He was worth $27B in Jan, and $185B at the start of this year. Today?  $244B.

$11B over that time frame is not 10% of income over 2020, the time frame for which he claims to be paying taxes..

Sure, accumulating wealth and earnings can be parsed. Knock yourself out on that, it’ll give you something to do between boot shines.

[workswithseed 2,103]

3 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Last year? He was worth $27B in Jan, and $185B at the start of this year. Today?  $244B.

$11B over that time frame is not 10% of income over 2020, the time frame for which he claims to be paying taxes..

Sure, accumulating wealth and earnings can be parsed. Knock yourself out on that, it’ll give you something to do between boot shines.

Brrrrrrrrrr..... The fed should be abolished.

[jimmyjazz 45,916]

3 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Last year? He was worth $27B in Jan, and $185B at the start of this year. Today?  $244B.

$11B over that time frame is not 10% of income over 2020, the time frame for which he claims to be paying taxes..

Sure, accumulating wealth and earnings can be parsed. Knock yourself out on that, it’ll give you something to do between boot shines.

It just shows the grotesque disconnect between "income" tax and the lack of tax on unrealized gains.

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

11 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Last year? He was worth $27B in Jan, and $185B at the start of this year. Today?  $244B.

$11B over that time frame is not 10% of income over 2020, the time frame for which he claims to be paying taxes..

Sure, accumulating wealth and earnings can be parsed. Knock yourself out on that, it’ll give you something to do between boot shines.

You advocate taxing unrealized gains?

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You advocate taxing unrealized gains?

I advocate for billionaires paying a higher percentage in taxes on their realized gains than do their employees. Right now, they do not. Accumulated wealth leverages just like cash.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Claro

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

I advocate for billionaires paying a higher percentage of their realized gains than do their employees. Right now, they do not.

Your post I responded was only addressing Musk’s unrealized gains.

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Your post I responded was only addressing Musk’s unrealized gains.

Glad we agree.

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

30 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It just shows the grotesque disconnect between "income" tax and the lack of tax on unrealized gains.

 

My post was only to say that the government subsidizing Tesla's to the $4.5bn number that was cited up thread was actually an excellent investment. 2x returns and got $11bn for the trouble. That's hard money ROI.

There is an ROI for investments into a bunch of the social stuff that democrats want to do; where democrats fail is that there is no value-based arguments that could make people feel better about the massive investments into things that look and feel (emotionally) like waste or hand-outs, when in reality they are investments with ROI for all of us.

If I'm Biden I would have created a value engineering committee and made Katie Porter tackle this on day 1 of the presidency. The way she whips that mini-whiteboard I bet she is a whiz with excel.

Edited December 21, 2021 by MonkeyCigarette

[Incredulity 11,669]

40 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Last year? He was worth $27B in Jan, and $185B at the start of this year. Today?  $244B.

$11B over that time frame is not 10% of income over 2020, the time frame for which he claims to be paying taxes..

Sure, accumulating wealth and earnings can be parsed. Knock yourself out on that, it’ll give you something to do between boot shines.

You’re the one who said, “last year”. No idea what your point in being snarky there is.

Paper gains aren’t earnings.  Full stop.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Incredulity

[Born to Run 6,569]

Less than 10% of his earnings last year. Go ahead, stand up and get the dirt off your knees.

Can I get that deal for my taxes?

[Incredulity 11,669]

1 minute ago, Born to Run said:

2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Less than 10% of his earnings last year. Go ahead, stand up and get the dirt off your knees.

Can I get that deal for my taxes?

Sure, if you conflate asset appreciation and earnings.

 

words have meanings.

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

Y'all stop, Willfully Horn means well.

[Born to Run 6,569]

My post was only to say that the government subsidizing Tesla's to the $4.5bn number that was cited up thread was actually an excellent investment. 2x returns and got $11bn for the trouble. That's hard money ROI.
There is an ROI for investments into a bunch of the social stuff that democrats want to do; where democrats fail is that there is no value-based arguments that could make people feel better about the massive investments into things that look and feel (emotionally) like waste or hand-outs, when in reality they are investments with ROI for all of us.
If I'm Biden I would have created a value engineering committee and made Katie Porter tackle this on day 1 of the presidency. The way she whips that mini-whiteboard I bet she is a whiz with excel.

Most of America: " What's an excel. I like money. Change scary, other bad"

[Incredulity 11,669]

8 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Less than 10% of his earnings last year. Go ahead, stand up and get the dirt off your knees.

Can I get that deal for my taxes?

Also, you will need to create something more valuable than your dissertation on 14th Century French Poetry.  It’s a bummer, but thems the breaks.

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

26 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Sure, if you conflate asset appreciation and earnings.

 

words have meanings.

Your accountant has some bad news. 

[Willfully Horn 8,014]

 

[Bullneck 19,084]

6 hours ago, MonkeyCigarette said:

Y'all stop, Willfully Horn means well.

I'd say he's better informed than you are.  The point is, whatever Musk is paying in taxes he would paying much more if the tax code hadn't been manipulated to favor the rich.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Bullneck

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

11 hours ago, MonkeyCigarette said:

The guy who just paid $11bn in taxes tho?

He hasn't paid that.  He said he believes that is what he will owe next year.  

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Is Monkey Cigarette the same troll as GRHorn, Satoshi, etc?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joe-manchin-privately-told-colleagues-104509135.html

So Manchin thinks parents that get the child credit are going to use that money on drugs.  

Edited December 21, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[Biff Tannen 45,679]

18 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Is Monkey Cigarette the same troll as GRHorn, Satoshi, etc?

Donkey Cigar, I believe.

[Biff Tannen 45,679]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joe-manchin-privately-told-colleagues-104509135.html

So Manchin things parents that get the child credit are going to use that money on drugs.  

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

The point is, whatever Musk is paying in taxes he would paying much more if the tax code hadn't been manipulated to favor the rich.

Sure, everyone agrees with that and that wasn’t my point. Again, and this is a bipartisan point, I was talking about how 4.5b in tax subsidies for Tesla turned into an $11b return for the government. Every CFO in the world is looking for how to spend $1 dollar to make $3. The Government invested in Tesla/electric in the sense the subsidy was an investment and doubled the money as an ROI. Pretty cool.

Further, my point is there is absolutely an ROI and a hard money value that can be tied to literally every single social measure in BBB. The smart thing would be to attach to that value for voters and politicians versus hoping the vague benefits scratch the itch of those on the left side of the bleeding hearts scale. You have to defend the value of what you want and the emotional defense doesn’t work for the democrats like it does for republicans (they took our jobs! They are teaching Marxist crt in the classroom, etc.)

The consistent response seems to be “people are too stupid to understand, etc.” and I think that’s a cop out. It seems more like politicians are too stupid to do some basic leg work to distill society ROI and savings for all, by implementing social programs.

[DDD Dad 14,338]

Donkey Cigar, I believe.

Remember when Donkey Cigar promised he wouldn’t come back with a new handle? Yeah me too.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

7 minutes ago, MonkeyCigarette said:

Sure, everyone agrees with that and that wasn’t my point. Again, and this is a bipartisan point, I was talking about how 4.5b in tax subsidies for Tesla turned into an $11b return for the government. Every CFO in the world is looking for how to spend $1 dollar to make $3. The Government invested in Tesla/electric in the sense the subsidy was an investment and doubled the money as an ROI. Pretty cool.

Further, my point is there is absolutely an ROI and a hard money value that can be tied to literally every single social measure in BBB. The smart thing would be to attach to that value for voters and politicians versus hoping the vague benefits scratch the itch of those on the left side of the bleeding hearts scale. You have to defend the value of what you want and the emotional defense doesn’t work for the democrats like it does for republicans (they took our jobs! They are teaching Marxist crt in the classroom, etc.)

The consistent response seems to be “people are too stupid to understand, etc.” and I think that’s a cop out. It seems more like politicians are too stupid to do some basic leg work to distill society ROI and savings for all, by implementing social programs.

Your premise of 4.5b for Tesla in subs is a return of 11b from Elon is flawed at best.

[MonkeyCigarette 143]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Your premise of 4.5b for Tesla in subs is a return of 11b from Elon is flawed at best.

I agree, it’s super conservative and not taking into account the entire blend:

- the value that Tesla pays in Corporate taxes (if any)

- the value that Tesla pays in employer taxes as they exist, and grow, as a going concern

- the value Tesla pays in real estate taxes for factories and buildings

- the value Tesla provides in employing Americans— from the super smart knowledge workers down to the not so brilliant folks working the factory lines or shop floor.

- the value in helping to legitimize non-fossil fuel consumption and starting the eVehicle revolution (there would be no Rivian, Lordstown, or even Ford Lightning without Tesla) and what that means for climate health eventually.

So yes, obviously just looking at the $11bn that Elon paid is a tip of the iceberg on the government’s ROI for the subsidy.

I’m not an Elon fan boy, I think he’s gotten lucky and is not a genius, but I can also appreciate his contributions up to and including putting $11bn back to the government in taxes. It’s weird people want to even poopooh that with “yea it’s the most anyones paid in taxes and it’s a lot but….he’s still a multibillionaire so it’s not enough!” 

Edited December 21, 2021 by MonkeyCigarette

[VRHorn 718]

It's worth noting that the tweet about the $4.5B was from 2015, so there are presumably other subsidies in subsequent years.

It's also worth noting that Sack of Shit's graph regarding makers/takers was from 2011.

[Gourmand 7,774]

11 hours ago, Satchel said:

Why will this be viewed as the fault of Joe Manchin and not of the 50 Republicans who won’t even engage in the process? Why do they get off scott free?

For the same reason my wife blames me and not our four-year-old son if the electricity gets cut off because I forgot to pay the bill. They are children eating their smash cake who always get to have it both ways. Fuck Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema, but fifteen years ago it was Joe Lieberman. There are always one or two intransigent holdouts that get the ink and the vitriol while the dogshit party on the other side of the aisle is unified in destroying whatever it can get away with. 

The burden to do something is always on Dems and when that doesn't happen the blame is likewise on Dems and not the unified, do-nothing obstructionists in the GQP. The modern Republican party is an organized and well-funded network of Christian terrorists, authoritarian nationalists, and unfunny insult comic toddlers who exist only to stoke divisive culture war nonsense aimed at giving their leadership enough power to raze every collective good our government has ever accomplished. These are bad faith actors with no concern for a government of the people, for the people, and by the people, their only concern is for the billionaire class. We are seriously fucked as a country. The bad guys have won.