Teacher goes Rocko

[Knoxtnhorn 5976]

Coincidentally, I think we just had a teacher at my school fired over the weekend.  I don’t know the whole story but it sounds like insubordination mixed in with being a shitty human being.

On a more positive note, I just had a 4th grade girl wet herself in the cafeteria.  (That’s not the positive part, btw.). The positive part is that not a single kid laughed at or made fun of her.  Several students assisted her by checking on her and telling her it’d be ok.  I’ll be contacting each one of their parents to let them know how much their maturity is appreciated.

Just thought I’d throw in a positive note in with all the negative stuff we all hear about schools these days.

[riloh05 107]

14 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

This is demonstrably false. 

go on about demonstrably false...

How much does a Public School Teacher in Houston, TX make? The median annual Public School Teacher salary in Houston, TX is $56,017, as of April 29, 2018, with a range usually between $48,903-$64,669 not including bonus and benefit information and other factors that impact base pay.

 

the $48,903 divided by 200 teacher work days comes to $244 a day. take that into a private sector employee that works 250-260 days= $63k. a teacher is contracted for 187 days, there are 250-260 working days in the private sector.

[deft 6850]

So you’re just repeating yourself now?

[riloh05 107]

1 minute ago, deft said:

So you’re just repeating yourself now?

are those numbers false?

[hayden_horn 11362]

11 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

go on about demonstrably false...

How much does a Public School Teacher in Houston, TX make? The median annual Public School Teacher salary in Houston, TX is $56,017, as of April 29, 2018, with a range usually between $48,903-$64,669 not including bonus and benefit information and other factors that impact base pay.

 

the $48,903 divided by 200 teacher work days comes to $244 a day. take that into a private sector employee that works 250-260 days= $63k. a teacher is contracted for 187 days, there are 250-260 working days in the private sector.

you quoted a post that stated a ten year teacher should make $65k a year. that would be in take home pay per school year. that you want to play funny games with the math/day is telling.  i go back to my firefighter comparison. they are at $65k/year in year THREE. it takes an AISD teacher 37 years to reach that salary. and firefighters work ~120 days per year.

Edited May 21, 2018 by hayden_horn

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

I think 65k for a teacher with 10 years experience is reasonable.

What is the current breakdown by level you teach?  Do elementary school teachers make the same as junior high and high school?  In my mind they don't, but I have no idea.  Following this thread it seems they are all the same with just level of education and years experience the difference makers.

[riloh05 107]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

you quoted a post that stated a ten year teacher should make $65k a year. that would be in take home pay per school year. that you want to play funny games with the math/day is telling.  i go back to my firefighter comparison. they are at $65k/year in year THREE. it takes an AISD teacher 37 years to reach that salary. and firefighters work ~120 days per yer.

Those numbers do not state anything about 10 years.

do you have a specific example of an aisd teacher that has been teaching in the district for 37 years making less than 48k? or is that you taking the lowest salary- someone who hasnt taken or passed their teaching exam ( i think you have 2 to 3 years to complete). so taking the lowest starting salary and adding on 19k isnt accurate. the salary jumps once you are a certified teacher, but facts you know.

i think firefighters are slotted correctly. they are capable of saving lives (part of the job), specialized training, deal with life/death,  and and other difficulties...when they are called to work it may be a little bit more difficult than pass or fail.

Edited May 21, 2018 by riloh05

[hayden_horn 11362]

12 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

Those numbers do not state anything about 10 years.

do you have a specific example of an aisd teacher that has been teaching in the district for 37 years making less than 48k? or is that you taking the lowest salary- someone who hasnt taken or passed their teaching exam ( i think you have 2 to 3 years to complete). so taking the lowest starting salary and adding on 19k isnt accurate. the salary jumps once you are a certified teacher, but facts you know.

i think firefighters are slotted correctly. they are capable of saving lives (part of the job), specialized training, deal with life/death,  and and other difficulties...when they are called to work it may be a little bit more difficult than pass or fail.

no, i think we may have crossed wires. 10 year AISD teachers make ~$50k. i think that should be closer to $65k. i think anyone who makes it in that career to 20 years should be making more than $54.6k. i also think that teachers' performance should be closely monitored by their current principals, and that they should be easier to fire, in general. but i think raising the pay would raise the talent pool and make accountability more focused. but a ~9% pay increase over a decade of time is fucking ridiculous. that's a 0.88% CAGR. 

[riloh05 107]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

no, i think we may have crossed wires. 10 year AISD teachers make ~$50k. i think that should be closer to $65k. i think anyone who makes it in that career to 20 years should be making more than $54.6k. i also think that teachers' performance should be closely monitored by their current principals, and that they should be easier to fire, in general. but i think raising the pay would raise the talent pool and make accountability more focused. but a ~9% pay increase over a decade of time is fucking ridiculous. that's a 0.88% CAGR. 

performance is hard to measure from classroom to classroom. example- in a health class i taught i had a kid going to Harvard and one or 3 that are serving time. i taught health, by no means should my pay be equal or more than an algebra teacher.

[irishtexan 11519]

44 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

are those numbers false?

Yes. They absolutely are. Houston ISD teachers crack $65k in year 26. Here's a chart. Quick research indicates that the 10M/10.5M/11M/11.5M and 12M refer to the number of months the teachers teach. I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority are 10M teachers because that's standard and there likely are not a lot of opportunities to work through the entire year. Those jobs, I would imagine, are few and far between. If someone has more info on opportunities to work year-round in Houston, I'd like to hear more. I know that doesn't exist for my wife here in Austin.

http://www.houstonisd.org/cms/lib2/TX01001591/Centricity/domain/16074/salary schedules/2017 - 2018 salary schedules/2017-2018 Teacher Initial Compensation Placement Tables.pdf

Here's Austin. Teachers don't reach $65k until year 39.

https://www.austinisd.org/sites/default/files/dept/hr/2017-18_Teacher-Librarian_Salary_Schedule.pdf

Edited May 21, 2018 by irishtexan

[hayden_horn 11362]

Just now, riloh05 said:

performance is hard to measure from classroom to classroom. example- in a health class i taught i had a kid going to Harvard and one or 3 that are serving time. i taught health, by no means should my pay be equal or more than an algebra teacher.

well, it is and it isn't. the principal should be aware of the students, and those that can be problematic. it's similar to how people can be measured in the private sector based on their different circumstances.

[riloh05 107]

4 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Yes. They absolutely are. Houston ISD teachers crack $65k in year 26. Here's a chart. Quick research indicates that the 10M/10.5M/11M/11.5M and 12M refer to the number of months the teachers teach. I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority are 10M teachers because that's standard and there likely are not a lot of opportunities to work through the entire year. Those jobs, I would imagine, are few and far between. If someone has more info on opportunities to work year-round in Houston, I'd like to hear more. I know that doesn't exist for my wife here in Austin.

http://www.houstonisd.org/cms/lib2/TX01001591/Centricity/domain/16074/salary schedules/2017 - 2018 salary schedules/2017-2018 Teacher Initial Compensation Placement Tables.pdf

Here's Austin. Teachers don't reach $65k until year 39.

https://www.austinisd.org/sites/default/files/dept/hr/2017-18_Teacher-Librarian_Salary_Schedule.pdf

what should a 26 year teacher make? is her job more difficult in year 6 than it is in year 22? is the teacher not teaching the same thing as the year before? i know this is kinda moving the goalpost, but i think it goes hand in hand with the difficulty of just pay teachers more. 50k out of college isnt a bad gig. 55k 10 years into my career tells me i am doing it wrong.

[riloh05 107]

7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

well, it is and it isn't. the principal should be aware of the students, and those that can be problematic. it's similar to how people can be measured in the private sector based on their different circumstances.

those types of observations come from folks who are not on campus (large district, my only point of reference) and know the roster.

[irishtexan 11519]

1 minute ago, riloh05 said:

what should a 26 year teacher make? is her job more difficult in year 6 than it is in year 22? is the teacher not teaching the same thing as the year before? i know this is kinda moving the goalpost, but i think it goes hand in hand with the difficulty of just pay teachers more. 50k out of college isnt a bad gig. 55k 10 years into my career tells me i am doing it wrong.

Your position is that teachers don't deserve raises? You're a fucking idiot.

[hayden_horn 11362]

4 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

what should a 26 year teacher make? is her job more difficult in year 6 than it is in year 22? is the teacher not teaching the same thing as the year before? i know this is kinda moving the goalpost, but i think it goes hand in hand with the difficulty of just pay teachers more. 50k out of college isnt a bad gig. 55k 10 years into my career tells me i am doing it wrong.

she's got 20 more years of classroom experience! of course she should be paid more.

should a 10 year fireman be paid more than a year 4 fireman? is his job more difficult in year 10 than in year 4?

[riloh05 107]

3 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Your position is that teachers don't deserve raises? You're a fucking idiot.

no my position is i think they are currently slotted correctly for 197 days worked. the data in the tables that show that 10 years into teaching shows that its not financially rewarding based on longevity. what the tables dont show you is what TRS can do for your family in those additional 10 years. none of that has been factored into the pay discussion and it is an elephant in the room

[riloh05 107]

10 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

she's got 20 more years of classroom experience! of course she should be paid more.

should a 10 year fireman be paid more than a year 4 fireman? is his job more difficult in year 10 than in year 4?

that's a broad brush your stroking there...what is the incentive for a 5 year to teacher to bust their ass to be great?

what if there was a flat salary for being a teacher...57k. + for other degrees masters/phd/etc...5k each. so 62k and max at 67k.

how could you bonus, incentivize teachers for more coin?

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by riloh05

[Jack Burton 35]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

you quoted a post that stated a ten year teacher should make $65k a year. that would be in take home pay per school year. that you want to play funny games with the math/day is telling.  i go back to my firefighter comparison. they are at $65k/year in year THREE. it takes an AISD teacher 37 years to reach that salary. and firefighters work ~120 days per year.

Firefighters work a 24 hour shift

[hayden_horn 11362]

Just now, Jack Burton said:

Firefighters work a 24 hour shift

which i pointed out earlier in the thread. then they get 48 hours off. they work one out of every three days. i'm not minimizing firefighters here, it's very important to note. i'm making a case that these "time off" arguments shouldn't apply to teachers, unless they do for firefighters.

 

[Jack Burton 35]

no they should only apply to teachers

[riloh05 107]

9 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

which i pointed out earlier in the thread. then they get 48 hours off. they work one out of every three days. i'm not minimizing firefighters here, it's very important to note. i'm making a case that these "time off" arguments shouldn't apply to teachers, unless they do for firefighters.

 

firefighter works 120 days @ 24 hour shift = 2880 hours worked.

teacher works 200 days @ 8 hour days= 1600 hours worked

private sector works m-f (250'sh days) @ 8 hour days= 2000 hours worked

seems like firefighters are underpaid and work more hours than most folks.

that really didnt do much for the teacher discussion.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by riloh05

[hayden_horn 11362]

well, that argument backfired. lulz.

[riloh05 107]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

well, that argument backdraft'ed. lulz.

fify.

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

Teachers are kind of screwed as exempt employees.  I bet all pretty much all log over 40 hours/week when in session.

[hayden_horn 11362]

but yeah, there are no 8 hour days. my wife gets to school at 7:30, gets home at 5:30, has about a half hour lunch, during which she works, and then she grades papers and does lesson plans in the evenings and on weekends.

[riloh05 107]

2 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Teachers are kind of screwed as exempt employees.  I bet all pretty much all log over 40 hours/week when in session.

depends... they get 2 off periods, maybe one. i had 2. lunch. so them putting in a "full day" isnt like the rest of the working world. one of my "off" periods was an athletic class that I went to do, so there is that as well.

[riloh05 107]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

but yeah, there are no 8 hour days. my wife gets to school at 7:30, gets home at 5:30, has about a half hour lunch, during which she works, and then she grades papers and does lesson plans in the evenings and on weekends.

she doesnt have any off periods?

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

13 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

firefighter works 120 days @ 24 hour shift = 2880 hours worked.

teacher works 200 days @ 8 hour days= 1600 hours worked

private sector works m-f (250'sh days) @ 8 hour days= 2000 hours worked

seems like firefighters are underpaid and work more hours than most folks.

that really didnt do much for the teacher discussion.

 

Assuming there are no fires of course, don't firemen get to sleep during the night of their 24 hour shift?

[riloh05 107]

Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

Assuming there are no fires of course, don't firemen get to sleep during the night of their 24 hour shift?

have no idea. never been a firefighter, just a teacher. i do know that firefighters are called out for all sorts of things including car wreks, 911 calls/emergencies, etc...

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

2 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

depends... they get 2 off periods, maybe one. i had 2. lunch. so them putting in a "full day" isnt like the rest of the working world. one of my "off" periods was an athletic class that I went to do, so there is that as well.

Do the firemen that work 2880 hours a put out fires everyone of those hours?

[hayden_horn 11362]

4 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

she doesnt have any off periods?

yes, a planning period, during which she works.

[riloh05 107]

1 minute ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Do the firemen that work 2880 hours a put out fires everyone of those hours?

posted above- have no idea. never been a firefighter, just a teacher. i do know that firefighters are called out for all sorts of things including car wrecks, 911 calls/emergencies, etc... i guess just like a teacher isnt teaching all day everyday.

 

[hayden_horn 11362]

5 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Assuming there are no fires of course, don't firemen get to sleep during the night of their 24 hour shift?

 

2 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

have no idea. never been a firefighter, just a teacher. i do know that firefighters are called out for all sorts of things including car wreks, 911 calls/emergencies, etc...

well, knowing a fireman, yes, they can grab some shut eye depending on the station and the shift. they can also play video games, workout, or do any number of things between calls. hell, the guys on the station on manchaca are always out playing ping pong and shit. none of this minimizes that job, mind you.

the point i'm trying to make (and i'm doing a terrible job at it, frankly) is that teachers deserve more than a 0.88% CAGR on their decade of experience from year 10 to year 20. we should want more 20 year veteran teachers than for people to look to the private sector (as my wife has started to recently consider.)

we should WANT my wife in the classroom. she's a fucking fantastic teacher, but it's starting to wear on her. i bet it would feel differently if she was valued more.

[riloh05 107]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

yes, a planning period, during which she works.

one or 2? not saying she doesnt, i know i used mine to grade, run scantrons, prep, etc...

also, not a lot of jobs out there where you can shut your door for 40-60 mins twice a day (lunch, off-period).

 

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

Well the answer is they don't obviously.  They have a lot of down time they get paid for.  They are obviously on call any one of those hours but they are paid no matter what happens.

My wife isn't a teacher but a school nurse.  She definitely logs more than 40 hours a week when she works, and doesn't get off periods.  She isn't in it for the money though.  She would certainly make more if she were eligible for OT though.

[safe sex 11735]

Most jobs stop once the employee leaves the premises of work. Teachers continue to work at home. Do you really believe teachers only work 40 hours a week? 

[riloh05 107]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

well, knowing a fireman, yes, they can grab some shut eye depending on the station and the shift. they can also play video games, workout, or do any number of things between calls. hell, the guys on the station on manchaca are always out playing ping pong and shit. none of this minimizes that job, mind you.

the point i'm trying to make (and i'm doing a terrible job at it, frankly) is that teachers deserve more than a 0.88% CAGR on their decade of experience from year 10 to year 20. we should want more 20 year veteran teachers than for people to look to the private sector (as my wife has started to recently consider.)

we should WANT my wife in the classroom. she's a fucking fantastic teacher, but it's starting to wear on her. i bet it would feel differently if she was valued more.

but what is that value...that is what I want to find out, and pardon my asshole'ness. at what number does she begin to be valued in her eyes? i think there are more factors in play besides pay as to why a bad ass teacher would look at doing something else- the pay is the gravy.

the unrealistic solution is to have an idiot tax for idiot parents with turds as kids. every time they fuck up, $1500 fine. $750 to school and $750 to the teacher.

[riloh05 107]

2 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Most jobs stop once the employee leaves the premises of work. Teachers continue to work at home. Do you really believe teachers only work 40 hours a week? 

no. i was a coach and i had freshman b at 6am practice, drove the varsity bus and would pull into the school 10pm or later, get the kids pick up by parents or drop them off, in my bed at 11-midnight. rinse and repeat. its also naive to think some jobs are only 40 hours.

[F250 28777]

37 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Most jobs stop once the employee leaves the premises of work. Teachers continue to work at home. Do you really believe teachers only work 40 hours a week? 

Is this common with most careers? It's not something I ever experienced.

[Pato del Muerto 52504]

43 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Most jobs stop once the employee leaves the premises of work.

Wrong. Some do. Many, including most decent paying ones, do not. 

[skipperj 377]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is this common with most careers? It's not something I ever experienced.

If you work at McDonald's or Walmart, yes.

[gsoda3 3262]

1 hour ago, riloh05 said:

one or 2? not saying she doesnt, i know i used mine to grade, run scantrons, prep, etc...

also, not a lot of jobs out there where you can shut your door for 40-60 mins twice a day (lunch, off-period).

 

my wife gets 25 minutes for lunch (which is really only 19 minutes since it takes her 3 minutes to make sure all the kids get into the cafeteria and in line and sat down and then she has to collect them 3 minutes before the end of lunch) and one 40 minute period where the kids go to specials (PE, music, art).  that's it.  she's on the clock at 7:10am every morning, 6:45am on the days she has bus duty, and she's contracted to be at school til 3:50pm. 

 

you mentioned TRS contributed a lot.  what, specifically?  b/c as far as i know it's pretty piss poor.

[F250 28777]

22 minutes ago, skipperj said:

If you work at McDonald's or Walmart, yes.

Yeah, I think this is more common amongst the non-exempt clock puncher crowd.

[Modessit 5603]

one or 2? not saying she doesnt, i know i used mine to grade, run scantrons, prep, etc...
also, not a lot of jobs out there where you can shut your door for 40-60 mins twice a day (lunch, off-period).
 

Most jobs stop once the employee leaves the premises of work. Teachers continue to work at home. Do you really believe teachers only work 40 hours a week? 

He obviously has the easiest teaching job on the world. I guess he's right that HS Health teachers are paid too much already.

And I've met a few teachers like him - been teaching for 20 years and do the bare minimum. Those are the ones that are walking to their car 20 minutes ater the bell rings.

So I can understand why he thinks teachers have it easy and are paid enough already.

I laugh at the "40-hr work week". I laugh at the thinking that a "payroll clerk" is somehow as essential a position as "teacher".

And btw - my wife has been with AISD for 10 years. Her gross pay this year was under $50k. She actually got paid more 5 years ago than today because the district gave a temporary 3% pay increase for one year only. She wasn't thinking about pay in college because she's always wanted to be a teacher. She wasn't even thinking about special ed then, but it helped her get hired later.

[Modessit 5603]

Wrong. Some do. Many, including most decent paying ones, do not. 

How many not decent paying jobs do? Besides teaching?

[Pato del Muerto 52504]

7 minutes ago, Modessit said:

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wrong. Some do. Many, including most decent paying ones, do not. 

How many not decent paying jobs do? Besides teaching?

Hey, you’re right. Only an idiot would chose teaching as a profession. 

[Modessit 5603]

Hey, you’re right. Only an idiot would chose teaching as a profession. 

So we should not have teachers since nobody should do it for the current pay. Let the parents teach the kids. How much of your current work hours and pay would you have to forfeit if you had to devote time to educating your kids to a level that would get them into college? What's it worth to you to not have to do it yourself? Why is it more acceptable to pay a private school teacher more money than a public school teacher? "But I get better teachers and results with my kids at the private school." Exactly.

Can't wait for the surly elite to talk about how their wife homeschools their kids because she doesn't have to work - and use that as a reason why teachers don't need to be paid a decent salary to teach kids of the poors.

[Knoxtnhorn 5976]

Just my 2 cents because I generally only post on argumentative threads when I've been drinking...

Pay - Cool with it.  I knew what I was going to make when I returned to school to become a teacher PLUS my wife and I make quite a bit more now than we did in TN PLUS we were both dirt poor growing up, so we're cool with having a nice house and being able to pay our bills.

Hours worked - I'm very efficient with the "extra stuff".  (I was an efficiency analyst for a couple of years.)  I'll carry a clipboard and grade while students are writing.  I get to school at 7AM and leave a little after 4PM.  So 9 hours a day PLUS grading papers, lesson plans, etc... I've always worked summer school, so I have about 4 solid vacation weeks during the summer PLUS all the other days we get off.  No complaints about hours worked, days off, etc... 

Behavior - The ONE thing that makes the job so damn difficult.  I don't mind testing as I believe there has to be some form of accountability.  I don't mind observations and people in my classrooms, because I'd say I do my job quite well 99% of the time.  Parents have usually not been a problem, save the ones that aren't involved in their child's life.  But, jeez, behavior.  I/we spend so much time dealing with this at the expense of the 80% that are doing the right thing.  I personally believe this to be the biggest issue with education these days. 

All in all, I'm pretty content being a teacher especially given my current administration.  That can make a huge difference to a teacher as I've been on both sides of that coin.  

As far as the general debate on this thread re: money.  Again, my wife and I are pretty content with what we currently make, and would just like our pay to mirror the cost of living increase each year.  

 

[skipperj 377]

How many 18yo cheerleaders have come on to you to get a a better grade?

[Capn81 372]

How many 18yo cheerleaders have come on to you to get a a better grade?

Now I feel like we are getting somewhere.