Kevin Kelley: That Arky HS coach who never punts

[MaybeACoordinator 8,350]

Got hired by Presbyterian, and FCS school in SC...the Blue Hose smashed their first two opponents by an average score of 81-23 with their QB throwing for 530 yards and ten TDs in the season opener. Insane box scores all around -- in the opener, nine guys caught TD passes. 

Could Kevin Kelley's virtual reinvention of football - go for it almost very fourth, never kick XPs or FGs, onside every kick-off, to name a few quirks -- translate from Arkansas HS football, where Kelley won something like 8 state championships despite having almost no real talent?

Looked like it through week 2, but today, welp, they ran into a buzzsaw in the form of the Campbell Fightin' Camels and got annihilated 72-0. Two QBs combined for seven picks. They barely cracked 200 yds total offense. This time seven Campbell receivers hauled in TDs.

On a side note, the box score claims the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson Sr. caught a pass. I am assuming this is a prank. Jesse has Parkinson's, is coming of covid is out of eligibility, and was a QB anyway. 

 

 

 

[hpslugga 4,097]

2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Got hired by Presbyterian, and FCS school in SC...the Blue Hose smashed their first two opponents by an average score of 81-23 with their QB throwing for 530 yards and ten TDs in the season opener. Insane box scores all around -- in the opener, nine guys caught TD passes. 

Could Kevin Kelley's virtual reinvention of football - go for it almost very fourth, never kick XPs or FGs, onside every kick-off, to name a few quirks -- translate from Arkansas HS football, where Kelley won something like 8 state championships despite having almost no real talent?

Looked like it through week 2, but today, welp, they ran into a buzzsaw in the form of the Campbell Fightin' Camels and got annihilated 72-0. Two QBs combined for seven picks. They barely cracked 200 yds total offense. This time seven Campbell receivers hauled in TDs.

On a side note, the box score claims the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson Sr. caught a pass. I am assuming this is a prank. Jesse has Parkinson's, is coming of covid is out of eligibility, and was a QB anyway. 

 

 

 

They effectively committed 16 turnovers

7 picks

3 lost fumbles

6 failed fourth downs 

Hard to accomplish anything with a performance that ghastly.

[MaybeACoordinator 8,350]

4 hours ago, hpslugga said:

They effectively committed 16 turnovers

7 picks

3 lost fumbles

6 failed fourth downs 

Hard to accomplish anything with a performance that ghastly.

Yeah...I don't mean to come across as gloating. I like to see experimentation amid all the groupthink. Maybe this is just a blip. Maybe Campbell is awesome, even if they were 0-2 coming in. Maybe I should go fuck myself...

[hpslugga 4,097]

1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Yeah...I don't mean to come across as gloating. I like to see experimentation amid all the groupthink. Maybe this is just a blip. Maybe Campbell is awesome, even if they were 0-2 coming in. Maybe I should go fuck myself...

I mean when you make 10 turnovers fumbling or throwing interceptions,

1. it says absolutely nothing about onside kicks and 

2. By the time you’ve made those 10, do the 6 failed 4th downs even matter? You realize that even if they wound up scoring TD’s on all 6 of those possessions; they’re still down by 30 points.

[Pato del Muerto 53,581]

1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Yeah...I don't mean to come across as gloating. I like to see experimentation amid all the groupthink. Maybe this is just a blip. Maybe Campbell is awesome, even if they were 0-2 coming in. Maybe I should go fuck myself...

[bad_teammate 13,566]

6 failed fourth downs 

Is the logic here that punting on 4th isn't failing?

[hpslugga 4,097]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Is the logic here that punting on 4th isn't failing?

 

Not in the slightest. Just that they failed to convert.

[RollLeft 5,092]

Tom coaches HS now?

[Bullneck 19,560]

Didn't Mike Leach espouse (but not quite implement) this strategy some years past?

[po elvis 2,143]

He just couldn’t get over the hump.

[Underdog 29,213]

Hal Mumme thinks this Coach is bonkers. 

[hpslugga 4,097]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Didn't Mike Leach espouse (but not quite implement) this strategy some years past?

I mean he does go for it on 4th down more often than others, but that’s about it. He wasn’t an onside kick hound and his defenses were pretty basic.

[BigHorn'13 3,494]

1 hour ago, RollLeft said:

Tom coaches HS now?

That binder has more analytics and football "know how" than your simple, non mensa brain, will ever be able to comprehend. 

[ERhine 1,939]

Did we really need a second thread to discuss this?

[Wulaw Horn 19,599]

1 minute ago, ERhine said:

Did we really need a second thread to discuss this?

Yes. Yes we do. 

[Tex Long 4,667]

We also need to go back to one ref and two linesmen, get rid  of the pesky replays, and have throw-ins, I mean lineouts, after ball goes out of bounds.

[MaybeACoordinator 8,350]

16 minutes ago, ERhine said:

Did we really need a second thread to discuss this?

it's the strangest experiment in CFB for many years...we've adopted other small colleges on here before like Fleck's bunch before he went to minny and wofford tee hee

[RomaVicta 30,623]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

I mean he does go for it on 4th down more often than others, but that’s about it. He wasn’t an onside kick hound and his defenses were pretty basic.

What distinguishes Kelley's defenses?

I recall reading the article posted about this guy years ago. I found it very interesting. I didn't know he'd had such success since then.

I wonder if in Arkansas high school the talent level of his team wasn't as far below that of top teams as a really poor college team's gap with even average teams.

I hope he gets a chance to try his philosophy with an at least middling college at whatever level.

Edited September 19, 2021 by RomaVicta
fumbled the coach's name

[UT_OB1 2,266]

I think there’s quite a bit more to this than simply looking at % chance of converting 4th.  At the high school level, especially at smaller schools with less talent, making a short field goal or averaging 25 yards on punts is not a given. You also have less time.  Some of these schools have 20-40 kids total. So spend more time repping your offense instead of trying to teach your 145 lb center to long snap to the one kid who played a little soccer in 3rd grade. 
 

By the time you get to college level, most of the kids that are seeing the field were badasses in all kinds of sports at their school and have more developed athleticism.  The guys with “brick hands” started for their basketball or baseball teams, and could be the best Wr with no training at some of the smaller HS. Much better hands and much less likely to perform a successful onside kick. At the small HS level, you’ve got some poor sap freshman or sophomore on the frontline that is out there to give a 2-way starter a half second breather, and because it’s high school, you’ve only practiced onside kicks twice. The kicking team though practices every day because it is their game plan.

Sorry to long wind  Lobo up the thread. 

[ERhine 1,939]

it's the strangest experiment in CFB for many years...we've adopted other small colleges on here before like Fleck's bunch before he went to minny and wofford tee hee

I know you lack reading comprehension, but what does this have to do with anything? I ask again, what prevented you from simply replying to the thread that already exists where people were already discussing Kelley? Why was a second thread needed?

[MaybeACoordinator 8,350]

8 minutes ago, ERhine said:

I know you lack reading comprehension, but what does this have to do with anything? I ask again, what prevented you from simply replying to the thread that already exists where people were already discussing Kelley? Why was a second thread needed?

Maybe because not many people know kelley got a college gig, and not everybody is on every thread. i maintain that story is of enough interest on its own to merit a dedicated thread, if for no other reason that it's so weird and unusual.

We have team threads for, oh let's see here: aggy, USC, Texas State, UTSA, SMU, Illinois, Nebraska, Navy, Rice, Arizona State, Jackson State, LSU and every other team in the Big 12. 

Probably a few more I am missing. 

 

[ConferenceRoom 6,214]

The other thread is dedicated. The title is literally his name.

[ERhine 1,939]

21 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Maybe because not many people know kelley got a college gig, and not everybody is on every thread. i maintain that story is of enough interest on its own to merit a dedicated thread, if for no other reason that it's so weird and unusual.

We have team threads for, oh let's see here: aggy, USC, Texas State, UTSA, SMU, Illinois, Nebraska, Navy, Rice, Arizona State, Jackson State, LSU and every other team in the Big 12. 

Probably a few more I am missing. 

 

Can you read?  Why does there need to be TWO threads for him?  

Here's the original one, dumbass:

First thread regarding Kelley which you fucking posted on dumbass

 

So again, for the third time - why did you feel the need to make a second thread on Kelley?

[lilMAC25 4,005]

Just now, ERhine said:

Can you read?  Why does there need to be TWO threads for him?  

Here's the original one, dumbass:

First thread regarding Kelley which you fucking posted on dumbass

 

So again, for the third time - why did you feel the need to make a second thread on Kelley?

Is surly short on electrons or something?

[RomaVicta 30,623]

Some people got up on the dickhead side of the bed this morning and then had piss-soaked cornflakes.

I approve of this thread even if a couple of radical thread police find my reading comprehension lacking or that I'm a dumbass.

I also won't feel obliged to answer the inane interrogation about how this abomination to humanity of a thread deserves to exist.

 

[lilMAC25 4,005]

5 hours ago, BigHorn'13 said:

That binder has more analytics and football "know how" than your simple, non mensa brain, will ever be able to comprehend. 

Fuck Tom Herman, but he never got ass raped live on TV by a Arkansas while at Texas…

[MaybeACoordinator 8,350]

1 hour ago, ERhine said:

Can you read?  Why does there need to be TWO threads for him?  

Here's the original one, dumbass:

First thread regarding Kelley which you fucking posted on dumbass

 

So again, for the third time - why did you feel the need to make a second thread on Kelley?

obviously i did not intend to start a duplicate thread. i thought the discussion was either a tangent in an unrelated thread or in a catchall thread of some kind.

"Kevin Kelley" is a shitty name for a thread like this because maybe ten percent of the people who've heard of that "crazy hs coach in Arkansas who never punts" actually know the dude's name.

your belligerence is peak Surly -- hats off to you. 

[Firemans4Horn 18,533]

Nm

Edited September 19, 2021 by Firemans4Horn

[hpslugga 4,097]

8 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

I think there’s quite a bit more to this than simply looking at % chance of converting 4th.

That’s not why he always does it. That does factor in, but the chief question he used analytics to answer is “what are the probable consequences of missing a 4th down vs voluntarily forfeiting the ball via punt?” It’s the same question he examined for onside kicks: what are the likelihoods of the opponent scoring when starting the possession at midfield vs their own 25?

The answers to the flip side of those questions are obvious:

”Do we stand a better chance scoring a TD if we go for it on 4th down or if we punt?” Duh

”Do we stand a better chance reacquiring the ball by onside kicking or deep kicking?” Again, duh.

Every coach is tempted to do those things but they fall short of giving into that temptation precisely and exactly out of fear the tactic will not work AND that it will be costly. Kelley’s approach is simply a rejection of conventional cost/benefit dogmatism. 

 

[Beau Vine 55,887]

58 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Coach is tempted to do those things but they fall short of giving into that temptation precisely and exactly out of fear the tactic will not work AND that it will be costly. Kelley’s approach is simply a rejection of conventional cost/benefit dogmatism. 

 

Bring up the decision to go for 2 if you score a TD when you're down by 15, and every poster who decrees that it's a bad decision will do so because, "If you don't make it, the game is over."  (And what makes it worse is that they'll assume you make the 2 if you score another TD.)  That's exactly the kind of shit Kelley is fighting against.  

[hpslugga 4,097]

12 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Bring up the decision to go for 2 if you score a TD when you're down by 15, and every poster who decrees that it's a bad decision will do so because, "If you don't make it, the game is over."  (And what makes it worse is that they'll assume you make the 2 if you score another TD.)  That's exactly the kind of shit Kelley is fighting against.  

Right because that’s another example of the wrong question being asked.

Ok so down 15, you know you need to go for 2. That’s a given. Regardless of whether you decided to go for 2 on the first or second TD, missing the 2 means another possession is needed. So what’s the appropriate question, since the odds of making a 2 pointer apply in either case?

To me, and I’m sure Kelley would agree, the question is:

“when do I want to know that I need a 3rd possession because I missed the 2?”

The answer is obvious: as soon as fucking possible. Those morons who say kick on the first TD are assuming that the 2 on the second TD is more probable, which is grotesque in its idiocy. You’d rather know you need an onside kick recovery with 2 minutes left to play rather than 2 seconds. To argue otherwise is to live outside of a sane universe.

Edited September 20, 2021 by hpslugga