Explain this

[Willfully Horn 7916]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Curious why you feel this way.  What would you feel would be apropos if someone did get hurt?  Say they shot one of the clerks, leaving him paralyzed and unable to support his family, but not dead?  Now that they have effectively destroyed several lives, what would be an appropriate sentence?

Using a firearm to rob someone, or in this gentlemen's case, rob several different people, is some serious shit.  Not boosting cars, or shoplifting.   7 years, so gets out in 4?  Fuck that noise. 

I was part of a jury pool for an armed robbery case. No one was hurt, (yes that matters,) no shots fired. We were asked if the case were proven, could we consider the maximum punishment. In my memory , that was life in jail. For the accused teenager! I told the room, hell no, that would be an immoral punishment. Fuck that noise. 

And fuck that only folks willing to consider such draconian revenge end up sitting on juries.

Edited to answer your question: yeah, if someone gets shot during a robbery, I’d be willing to sign off on a long jail sentence. Life, though? Probably not. 30 years seems long enough. That’s my opinion.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Explained

[Brisketexan 104628]

9 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

If they can't find a fuck to give, why should greater society?

Because they exist.  The only solution to your conundrum is mass executions.  Otherwise, as long as they exist, we're going to deal with them, and the fallout from both their decisions and our decisions on how to deal with them, politically, economically, and socially, for their entire lives.  

Other countries don't have our incarceration rate OR our violent crime rate.  We can and should learn from our peers.  There are a lot of things we could do differently or better to achieve better outcomes, at lower economic and social costs.  We should look into those, and not be afraid to change.  For fuck's sake, our current incarceration system is not very far removed from this shit, which is one of the most shameful things we've ever done as a society:

Prisons, as a loophole to get around the abolition of slavery.  Nifty.  Not a great foundation upon which we've built our system.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Brisketexan

[RomaVicta 29794]

16 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

That in itself is fucking stupid.  I'd posit it can be done for 1/5th of that cost.  But if we are making major decisions off of trying to save money, I've got some disappointing news on the welfare and immigration fronts.

 

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Not if you plan on making a profit doing it.

I can hardly wait to hear ff's badass plan for incarceration at 1/5 the cost based on privation, numbers pulled out of his ass, and wanting to show how few fucks he gives about the TV Show characters he imagines are in jail. All about as realistic as Abbotts bullshit about getting rapists off the street so he can have his little women-in-chains serving the male fantasy.

And Onboard points up the other aspect. People are making money running our privately owned prisons. There's a recipe for humane conditions. You give a corporation a lot of people just about nobody cares about plus a fat budget. I'm sure we can trust them to restrain their desire for highest possible profit and do right by the people in their custody.

[hobbes2702 12846]

11 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

As are the "feelings" in those tweets.  Completely irrelevant.  

It's largely true.  There's plenty of time to think about what you've done while in time out.  Most don't.  A business owner shouldn't be forced to hire an ex-con.  So the cycle continues.  

That largely starts and ends with the criminal themselves.  There are less than ideal legal jobs they can do when they get out.  The fact they find it easier to stick up the goddamn pizza hut is a problem for the criminal.  So I ask again.  If they can't find a fuck to give, why should greater society?

Just because you say it’s largely true doesn’t make it so. We have over 70% recidivism in this country. Norway is 20%. Are Norwegian criminals somehow different than American criminals?

 And again, because it costs money and costs lives. Criminals do have to take the steps to rehabilitate themselves but there have to be actual steps available which we don’t have in this country. You seem to think this is an impossible task despite the evidence from all over the world that says otherwise.

[fattyflattie 4636]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, if you want to violate every basic human right, sure.  We can put them in open-air cages and feed them rotting food with a dumptruck.

Where I grew up, there was like 5 prison farms within 30 miles.  Surely, with some thought, these costs can come down.  CXW might take a bit of a dive, but wgaf.  If the right folks wanted to cost down, it could be accomplished.  Just like anything else.  Has nothing to do with squalor, although providing cable TV and air-con is still pretty bullshit imo. 

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I am NOT sympathetic to criminals, particularly violent criminals.  They have broken laws, they have brought disorder to our society.  We have to have a system of criminal justice.  And yes, we will need prisons -- just like every other nation in the chart I cited

Good.  I agree.  I don't like theft, I fucking hate thieves.  But murder/rape/pedo is on a whole other level imo.  

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

except the Vatican, which either sends criminals to a secret underground dungeon or, if they're pedophiles, to a new parish to molest more kids, but I digress)

sigh.

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But it is undeniable that our current path costs more than any other civilized country, causes greater damage than in any civilized country, and yields much shittier outcomes than any other civilized country. 

The only thing I can think of is guaranteed govt jobs on their release, and at that point, have we really saved any money?   

[hobbes2702 12846]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because they exist.  The only solution to your conundrum is mass executions.  Otherwise, as long as they exist, we're going to deal with them, and the fallout from both their decisions and our decisions on how to deal with them, politically, economically, and socially, for their entire lives.  

Other countries don't have our incarceration rate OR our violent crime rate.  We can and should learn from our peers.  There are a lot of things we could do differently or better to achieve better outcomes, at lower economic and social costs.  We should look into those, and not be afraid to change.  For fuck's sake, our current incarceration system is not very far removed from this shit, which is one of the most shameful things we've ever done as a society:

Prisons, as a loophole to get around the abolition of slavery.  Nifty.  Not a great foundation upon which we've built our system.

It’s the foundation we built it on and the reason we have people like @fattyflattie advocating for simply throwing away the key. We can pretend all we want but we designed a criminal justice system to target and imprison minorities while turning a profit.

[hobbes2702 12846]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Where I grew up, there was like 5 prison farms within 30 miles.  Surely, with some thought, these costs can come down.  CXW might take a bit of a dive, but wgaf.  If the right folks wanted to cost down, it could be accomplished.  Just like anything else.  Has nothing to do with squalor, although providing cable TV and air-con is still pretty bullshit imo. 

Good.  I agree.  I don't like theft, I fucking hate thieves.  But murder/rape/pedo is on a whole other level imo.  

sigh.

The only thing I can think of is guaranteed govt jobs on their release, and at that point, have we really saved any money?   

If that’s the only thing you think can be done to improve our criminal justice outcomes then I would advise you to do even a basic level of research 

[fattyflattie 4636]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

We have over 70% recidivism in this country. Norway is 20%. Are Norwegian criminals somehow different than American criminals?

...

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Criminals do have to take the steps to rehabilitate themselves but there have to be actual steps available which we don’t have in this country.

It is not impossible. Oh you can't become a bank manager right out the pen?  What an unjust world.   You raped and robbed at 22 yo but now think you're entitled to a "good job"?  You can sling trash like the guy from Guatemala (who lives for way less than 25k/yr, btw) and do like he does.  Oh, easier to rob and steal and sell drugs.  Yeah, it's the system that's broken. Fuck outta here. 

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

If that’s the only thing you think can be done to improve our criminal justice outcomes then I would advise you to do even a basic level of research 

They can teach at your kids school?  Work alongside your wife?  Clean your house? Yeah, didn't think so. 

[NWBuck 8548]

Seems like a good thread for this to be posted again:

 

[hobbes2702 12846]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

...

It is not impossible. Oh you can't become a bank manager right out the pen?  What an unjust world.   You raped and robbed at 22 yo but now think you're entitled to a "good job"?  You can sling trash like the guy from Guatemala (who lives for way less than 25k/yr, btw) and do like he does.  Oh, easier to rob and steal and sell drugs.  Yeah, it's the system that's broken. Fuck outta here. 

 

Not sure what your … is for

No one said it’s impossible. It’s significantly more difficult for those convicted of crimes to break that cycle in this country. We have set up barriers to make it more difficult. Why can other countries solve this but we can’t. I also don’t think you know how much garbage men actually make.

[Brisketexan 104628]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Where I grew up, there was like 5 prison farms within 30 miles.  Surely, with some thought, these costs can come down.  CXW might take a bit of a dive, but wgaf.  If the right folks wanted to cost down, it could be accomplished.  Just like anything else.  Has nothing to do with squalor, although providing cable TV and air-con is still pretty bullshit imo. 

Good.  I agree.  I don't like theft, I fucking hate thieves.  But murder/rape/pedo is on a whole other level imo.  

sigh.

The only thing I can think of is guaranteed govt jobs on their release, and at that point, have we really saved any money?   

Yeah...and I'm going to suggest this with good intentions, because I genuinely believe you to be a good dude....there's some great stuff out there to read on this subject.  Take a little time and do so.  Prison farms are literally a vestige of the 13th amendment loophole to get around the abolition of slavery.  The reasons our prisons cost so much is not because we coddle prisoners and they live the sweet life.  It's because we have so many prisoners.  $25k a year in expenses ain't shit -- and when you realize that a large slice of that isn't spent on the prisoner (food, clothing, healthcare), but rather is spent on the prison apparatus (guards, facilities, general operations), you realize that we're stuck with significant costs no matter what.

And yeah, in a shitty cinder-block prison with no ventilation (nor should it have much...I mean, it's a prison, big airy windows would kinda defeat the purpose), A/C is necessary to live.  It doesn't have to be a frosty 68 or anything, but prisoners were literally dying from the heat.  Again, prison is not nor should it be a death sentence.  They are human beings who exist on this earth.  We cannot just kill them.  It is really, really wrong, on every level, that we functionally don't give a shit if we kill them.

And shit, I'd be FINE with guaranteed gov't jobs on their release -- we'd actually be getting something in exchange.  I think it would be great if prisoners couldn't get a job on release, we offered them jobs building roads and trails and all kinds of other shit in national and state parks, that sort of thing (think WPA/CCC stuff).  Give them a job, with real pay and benefits, and give them a chance to build a resume and work record that they can then use to get their next job.  And we get the benefit of the work they perform.   Win/win.  It's a lot better than releasing them with no skills, no prospects, no ability to get hired at a legit job.....leaving them to fall right back into what they were doing that got them sent to prison in the first place.

[HornPhD 1364]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

Legleitner (born in September 1989) was 19 when he committed an armed robbery, along with five other people, on 3 November 2008. He was arrested in February 2009.

And details on the other five regarding their sentences?

[pacman 7330]

http://projects.heraldtribune.com/bias/bauer/

 

Here is a story on the judge, covering more than just the referenced discrepancy.

Quote

Bauer’s rulings still stand out. They are among the widest racial discrepancies in the 19th Circuit — one of the worst courts in Florida to be black, according to a statistical analysis of every felony case across the state during the past 12 years.

 

 

Quote

But Bauer handed down an average prison term of 497 days to whites convicted of burglary. He gave blacks with the same scores nearly triple that time.

 

[hobbes2702 12846]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

They can teach at your kids school?  Work alongside your wife?  Clean your house? Yeah, didn't think so. 

Ok so what is your solution? Lock them up forever? Kill them? 

[RomaVicta 29794]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

providing cable TV and air-con is still pretty bullshit imo. 

You don't know shit. I'm sure your anecdotal postulations get big nods from your pals who think you're the greatest. 

Texas prisons have not been air conditioned. There's a chance they get air-conditioned by 2029, but it's not guaranteed.

From the Texas Tribune:

Quote

After sweltering temperatures killed Texas prisoners, lawmakers vote to install air conditioning

Quote

As Texas braces for its notoriously scorching summer temperatures, the state House agreed to install air conditioning in dozens of uncooled prisons within seven years — but only if lawmakers set aside money for it.

On Thursday night, the Texas House initially passed a bill that would require all Texas lockups to be cooled over a seven-year span, capping costs at $300 million. But the state prison agency would only have to abide by the measure if lawmakers also agree to provide state or federal funds toward cooling costs. The bill finally cleared the House Friday on a 123-18 vote and was sent to the Senate.

“The reality is, in Texas, we are cooking people in prisons,” state Rep. Terry Canales, D-Edinburg, said on the floor when presenting his bill. “This is the right thing to do, it is the humane thing to do, and it’s something we should have done a long time ago.”

...

Currently, 70% of the state’s nearly 100 prison facilities do not have air conditioning in living areas. Some areas, like administrative offices and infirmaries, are air conditioned at all units.

In the last decade, at least 13 men have died of heat stroke while incarcerated in Texas prisons, according to court records and autopsy reports. Many more prisoners and guards are sickened each year in temperatures that often soar past 100 degrees, requiring intravenous fluids after reporting dizziness, nausea, heat rashes and muscle cramps.

And no TV, you say?

Let's look at the genius of your inhumanity. Let's take men convicted of crime, put them in an overcrowded space with little or no protection from other inmates then remove any form of entertainment while the temperature soars to over a hundred degrees. 

Then you're going to blame the prisoner for not spending his time considering his actions and making positive decisions to be proactive bootstrap-wise.

Serves 'em right.

You're an asshole proud of displaying no empathy likely to compensate for doubts about your masculinity. We have a pretty shameful rate of wrongful conviction. What if that happens to you even if you are white? You gonna be happy witnessing what you wished for?  Or, will you think, Jesus, nobody should have to live like this! 

We're cruel, ain't it divine?

[JimmyJames 12271]

Guys. Since before this country was even founded and was an English colony the elites designed a system of black versus white to keep the poor at war with each other and to keep the elites rich.

Over the centuries as America got stronger it has worked insanely well and the owners of this country are currently by far the wealthiest in world history and it’s not even close. Job well done.

Now it’s not necessarily white v. Black, because that doesn’t work as well anymore. Too overtly racist and doesn’t fly anymore.

So, what to do? I got it! Red v. Blue! Genius!

Insanely long prison sentences for the blacks, and low grade education for all, keeping the rubes dumb, are just symptoms of the overall disease.
 

The owners don’t care and laugh the hardest at republicans sheep who continue to vote against the own self interests. Including the “let’s get tough on crime” dumbasses when crime is still historically low and the wannabe border patrol agents who want all the browns arrested.

[fattyflattie 4636]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Not sure what your … is for

The US has stunningly different demographics than Norway, for starters.  Melting pot and all that.  It won't be mistaken for anywhere, here.  But you know that. 

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I also don’t think you know how much garbage men actually make.

I assume you mean that it pays better than I think; that is great news.  Seems like societal integration just got easier for the ex-con.  Because the guys on the back of the trucks here know literally no English - which is fine.  That said, it shouldn't be a hard barrier to enter the force as an American born and educated (albeit likely minimally) here.   I'm sure there are hundreds more jobs like that.  I used it because it's a job that is low paying and deals in literal filth.  Does it pay more than committing crimes is the question.  If the person chooses additional crime rather than work, I ask again, why should society tolerate it? 

[NWBuck 8548]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah...and I'm going to suggest this with good intentions, because I genuinely believe you to be a good dude....there's some great stuff out there to read on this subject.  Take a little time and do so.  Prison farms are literally a vestige of the 13th amendment loophole to get around the abolition of slavery.  The reasons our prisons cost so much is not because we coddle prisoners and they live the sweet life.  It's because we have so many prisoners.  $25k a year in expenses ain't shit -- and when you realize that a large slice of that isn't spent on the prisoner (food, clothing, healthcare), but rather is spent on the prison apparatus (guards, facilities, general operations), you realize that we're stuck with significant costs no matter what.

And yeah, in a shitty cinder-block prison with no ventilation (nor should it have much...I mean, it's a prison, big airy windows would kinda defeat the purpose), A/C is necessary to live.  It doesn't have to be a frosty 68 or anything, but prisoners were literally dying from the heat.  Again, prison is not nor should it be a death sentence.  They are human beings who exist on this earth.  We cannot just kill them.  It is really, really wrong, on every level, that we functionally don't give a shit if we kill them.

And shit, I'd be FINE with guaranteed gov't jobs on their release -- we'd actually be getting something in exchange.  I think it would be great if prisoners couldn't get a job on release, we offered them jobs building roads and trails and all kinds of other shit in national and state parks, that sort of thing (think WPA/CCC stuff).  Give them a job, with real pay and benefits, and give them a chance to build a resume and work record that they can then use to get their next job.  And we get the benefit of the work they perform.   Win/win.  It's a lot better than releasing them with no skills, no prospects, no ability to get hired at a legit job.....leaving them to fall right back into what they were doing that got them sent to prison in the first place.

Your point about the prison as a substitute for slavery also reflects the amount of merchandise made for places like Wal-Mart (to keep the 'low, low prices' and 'made in America' gravy train going for America's richest family).

But your critique doesn't factor in the for-profit prisons (here's one case where a judge gave sentencing with capacity benchmarks in mind). Prisons seem to be designed to protect money, save money, and make money.

Edited September 20, 2021 by NWBuck

[hobbes2702 12846]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

The US has stunningly different demographics than Norway, for starters.  Melting pot and all that.  It won't be mistaken for anywhere, here.  But you know that. 

I assume you mean that it pays better than I think; that is great news.  Seems like societal integration just got easier for the ex-con.  Because the guys on the back of the trucks here know literally no English - which is fine.  That said, it shouldn't be a hard barrier to enter the force as an American born and educated (albeit likely minimally) here.   I'm sure there are hundreds more jobs like that.  I used it because it's a job that is low paying and deals in literal filth.  Does it pay more than committing crimes is the question.  If the person chooses additional crime rather than work, I ask again, why should society tolerate it? 

No shit we have different demographics. Why should that change our success or lack thereof in rehabilitation? How are those even related?

We have to tolerate it. That’s the point here. We as society deal with the issues of criminals reentering the population. So again, what is your solution since we shouldn’t tolerate it?

[fattyflattie 4636]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And shit, I'd be FINE with guaranteed gov't jobs on their release -- we'd actually be getting something in exchange.  I think it would be great if prisoners couldn't get a job on release, we offered them jobs building roads and trails and all kinds of other shit in national and state parks, that sort of thing (think WPA/CCC stuff).  Give them a job, with real pay and benefits, and give them a chance to build a resume and work record that they can then use to get their next job.  And we get the benefit of the work they perform.   Win/win.  It's a lot better than releasing them with no skills, no prospects, no ability to get hired at a legit job.....leaving them to fall right back into what they were doing that got them sent to prison in the first place.

But you were concerned with cost?  You were concerned with 25/per.  So now we are going to double (at least) their cost, and expect them to do manual labor like building roads (asphalt crew<prison time) etc?  I mean I get the sentiment but the logistics and actually making it work are fucked.  Hell, we likely already do it now with the trustees.

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's a lot better than releasing them with no skills, no prospects, no ability to get hired at a legit job.....leaving them to fall right back into what they were doing that got them sent to prison in the first place.

Brisket, in the end, who's fault is this?  This is the problem.  We didn't cause them to not have prospects, a legit job (whatever that is anyhow).  Their choices and likely education level had a bigger factor than everything else combined in that.  Speaking about it like it was the lack of rehabilitation that caused this.  No, the fact you needed rehabilitation in the first place is where you start.  Whether you want to move forward should be step 2.  Then making it happen is where you seem to have picked up.

11 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Texas prisons have not been air conditioned.

Good.  Thought I saw somewhere that Angola was one of the last.  

13 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

What if that happens to you even if you are white?

The fuck does that have to do with anything?

12 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You're an asshole proud of displaying no empathy likely to compensate for doubts about your masculinity.

Lol.  Anytime you'd like to have a dick measuring contest, let me know.

[fattyflattie 4636]

9 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

We have to tolerate it. That’s the point here. We as society deal with the issues of criminals reentering the population. So again, what is your solution since we shouldn’t tolerate it?

I'm still waiting to know if they can work with your kids, wife, or in your home.  Kinda glossed over that post, huh?

[RomaVicta 29794]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Lol.  Anytime you'd like to have a dick measuring contest, let me know.

Typical.

[Enchubben 5509]

4 hours ago, Skipper said:

So with that background this isn't as surprising.  So like every other political based meme, no matter the slant, shockingly this one doesn't tell all the facts.  But I'm sure managed to rile a bunch of people up.

 

Pretty much this. A lot of this group was also at the forefront of a lynching epidemic a year ago that consisted of Jussie Smollett and a rash of public suicides. 

[Willfully Horn 7916]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

If the person chooses additional crime rather than work, I ask again, why should society tolerate it?

I wish we had sharper focus on which crimes cause the most damage. For example, @washparkhorn brought this to the thread, it echoes OP’s concern, and illustrates not only that some crimes damage society to a greater extent but also that race is a factor in punishment. WHICH IS ITSELF AGAINST OUR LAWS. 
 

Seems like we should be more outraged when race leads to differing sentences than we should at armed robbery. Not that armed robbery isn’t heinous, but endemic racial disparity in our justice system is worse.
 

Also: <checks board> Fuck ignoring what happened on Jan 6.

 

 

[hobbes2702 12846]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I'm still waiting to know if they can work with your kids, wife, or in your home.  Kinda glossed over that post, huh?

I have more than one ex convict that I work with everyday and have been in my home.
That’s also irrelevant to the large scale problems with our system. The issue isn’t can they work with kids. The issue is why are they unable to do so.

Tell me again why our demographics should have any effect on recidivism rates? Tell me your solution since anyone convicted of a crime is forever tainted in your mind. What do we as a society, who has to bear the cost both human and financial, with criminals? You continue to focus on “who’s at fault” which really doesn’t matter at all. We as a society have to deal with it so who’s fault it is is pointless 

Edited September 20, 2021 by hobbes2702

[RomaVicta 29794]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

I'm still waiting to know if they can work with your kids, wife, or in your home.  Kinda glossed over that post, huh?

You're all over the place with your fantasy description of what you imagine to be in prison. You mention pedos, rapists, and murderers: no, I don't want them in any of those places even if the wife and kids are not mine. What percentage of persons in prison committed these crimes? You must know, surely.

Another thing, you ask if we want excons around people we care about. You seem to think that's an argument for a less humane prison experience. You've got it backwards. Exconvicts are more likely to be violent as a result of their incarceration which is harsh, dehumanizing, dangerous, and hardly rehabilitive at all. You're blaming the victim you created.

We sent this man to a hell hole, and look how he comes out! Hell holes is all they deserve.

I think the actual meaning of begging the question.

[JimmyJames 12271]

16 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The US has stunningly different demographics than Norway, for starters.  Melting pot and all that.  It won't be mistaken for anywhere, here.  But you know that. 

Based on your postings I think you are younger than me. I used to think like you did.
 

The “stunningly different demographics” is just a euphemism for “all white.”  As if black people and other minorities are somehow aliens here that just landed here on the boat a few months ago. This Irish and the Italians were the aliens at one point. Then based on the system they eventually became “white.”  
 

The “blacks” and “others” never ever do and they have either been here for centuries or more show up here every damn day. 
 

Wisen up. It’s all a lie. 

[RomaVicta 29794]

5 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Pretty much this. A lot of this group was also at the forefront of a lynching epidemic a year ago that consisted of Jussie Smollett and a rash of public suicides. 

Which ones of this group? Please describe the group you mean.

[fattyflattie 4636]

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I have more than one ex convict that I work with everyday and have been in my home.

Cool, me too (tho they do not come to my home). None of them violent offenses (drinking and drugs iirc). Truck drivers and laborers.  I know the talking point is these folks are unemployable, but not true.  They just have to value their life after prison, imo. But I’m certainly no expert, only anecdotal experiences. 
 

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

The issue isn’t can they work with kids. The issue is why are they unable to do so.

Because generally we want people who make good decisions in custody of our children.  Most (all) prisoners don’t have that quality.  
 

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Tell me again why our demographics should have any effect on recidivism rates?

On the surface, it shouldn’t. That would take some PHD level catdaddy/pancho level racial education to answer imo. 
 

22 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You continue to focus on “who’s at fault” which really doesn’t matter at all.

I disagree. If we focused and took more responsibility there, we might start with less criminals. 
 

22 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You mention pedos, rapists, and murderers: no, I don't want them in any of those places even if the wife and kids are not mine.

Good, something we can agree on. The reason I’ve focused on that is I believe they are not redeemable to society at large.  While I’d rather people still not steal, or assault, or drive drunk, I believe some of that cab be fixed thru therapy or jobs, etc. I don’t think it’s uncommon to believe someone who fucks kids can be “taught” not to with a lesser prison sentence. 
 

24 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You seem to think that's an argument for a less humane prison experience. You've got it backwards. Exconvicts are more likely to be violent as a result of their incarceration which is harsh, dehumanizing, dangerous, and hardly rehabilitive at all. You're blaming the victim you created.

Maybe I haven’t been clear there. I absolutely do not cheer on rape and prison violence.  I wish they could go do their time, and come back out when that time ends and hopefully reintegrate.  I know this is not the “real world” way prisons work.  I’d rather them have books and jobs than TV, but whatever. But might as well wish in one hand on that, too. 

[hobbes2702 12846]

Look you clearly don’t want to actually learn anything about this topic. You want to be the tough on crime guy and ignore what that actually means. You throw out claim after claim that are unsupported and don’t care to learn. 
And to be clear, you brought up the demographics as a reason for why we can’t be Norway. So you just said it with no understanding of what that meant? I guess that shouldn’t be a surprise but it would be nice for you to explain the position you took since it was essentially you saying that black people commit crimes and can’t be rehabilitated.

Edited September 20, 2021 by hobbes2702

[fattyflattie 4636]

29 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Based on your postings I think you are younger than me. I used to think like you did.
 

The “stunningly different demographics” is just a euphemism for “all white.”  As if black people and other minorities are somehow aliens here that just landed here on the boat a few months ago. This Irish and the Italians were the aliens at one point. Then based on the system they eventually became “white.”  
 

The “blacks” and “others” never ever do and they have either been here for centuries or more show up here every damn day. 
 

Wisen up. It’s all a lie. 

I believe I’m 15 years or so younger than you.  I do believe the demographics play a part in everything. That by no means that it’s any fault of blacks/minorities. But as you well know we have a special set of circumstances here that are and will forever be intertwined with our national makeup. It likely touches every aspect of our lives from the second we are born till we die.  But I think everything would be different if blacks/minorities weren’t behind the 8 ball from the get go, then longer sentences, worse jury experiences, etc list goes on. But after several generations of dealing with that, I don’t think it’s unfair to say that it’s difficult, at best, and foolish at worst, to try and compare the issues the US faces with fucking Norway.   From the time I spent there, we also have an epidemic of fat ass women because we don’t bike everywhere. Or it’s McDonalds.  

[fattyflattie 4636]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Look you clearly don’t want to actually learn anything about this topic. You want to be the tough on crime guy and ignore what that actually means. You throw out claim after claim that are unsupported and don’t care to learn. 
And to be clear, you brought up the demographics as a reason for why we can’t be Norway. So you just said it with no understanding of what that meant? I guess that shouldn’t be a surprise but it would be nice for you to explain the position you took since it was essentially you saying that black people commit crimes and can’t be rehabilitated.

Yes, you’ve been a bastion of ideas and specifics in this thread. I do lean tougher on crime, I thought I made that clear in my literal first post on this thread. Maybe instead of assuming what I meant, you could ask. For one, it’s bullshit to compare any ethically non-diverse country to the US.  I wonder why Switzerland doesn’t face the same problems as the US hrrrr drrr.  I think you are smarter than that, so it was just baiting/trolling.  To suggest we should have anything in common with Norway is disingenuous. 

[hobbes2702 12846]

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

But you were concerned with cost?  You were concerned with 25/per.  So now we are going to double (at least) their cost, and expect them to do manual labor like building roads (asphalt crew<prison time) etc?  I mean I get the sentiment but the logistics and actually making it work are fucked.  Hell, we likely already do it now with the trustees.

Brisket, in the end, who's fault is this?  This is the problem.  We didn't cause them to not have prospects, a legit job (whatever that is anyhow).  Their choices and likely education level had a bigger factor than everything else combined in that.  Speaking about it like it was the lack of rehabilitation that caused this.  No, the fact you needed rehabilitation in the first place is where you start.  Whether you want to move forward should be step 2.  Then making it happen is where you seem to have picked up.

Cost is not a gross.  It's a net.  I spend $25k to put you in prison, I get functionally nothing in return.  I spend $30k to employ you to do something -- that is, to contribute your labor to an effort, I get the value of that labor back.  AND, you get the benefit of a job, and to build an employment history that can help with your next job (which means I won't have to keep you on a government job).

Whose fault is this?  That's not the problem at all, and here's the hard answer: IT DOESN'T MATTER.  We have millions of criminals to deal with.  It doesn't matter if they all chose crime because they were born bad, or if they all ended up criminals because we purposefully fucked them over to make them turn to crime.  The end result is the same: a defendant standing in front of a judge, waiting to hear his fate.  You do at least acknowledge one thing in addition to choices -- education level, and you note that this process should start WAY before they commit a crime and need to be rehabilitated.  YES.  There are things we can and should do before the criminal act ever happens that can help.

Help stabilize poor (heavily weighted to minorities, by proportion of population) families.  What does that?  Provide a functional social safety net: I'd rather spend $5k a year making sure a kid has adequate food and medical care than $25k a year hosting him in prison in 10 years.  Stop imprisoning fathers for shit that doesn't matter (read: end the war on drugs, which was purposefully designed, and has evolved to be even more efficient, at putting minorities into the criminal system).  We are all better off if a black kid's father....who maybe smokes weed....remains around, doesn't end up in prison, and doesn't end up unemployable.  He doesn't have to be the father of the year -- he just has to be SOMETHING, for the situation to be better.  Improve our education model and delivery (we spend $9k on each student, but $25k on each prisoner -- funding is FAR from the whole picture, but it's part of it), especially to our poorest neighborhoods and students.  Universal pre-K?  Shit, I say universal pre-school.  Get 'em when they're 3 -- give em a safe place to spend their day, with two good meals and early education.

And then.....when all else has failed, and we have someone in the criminal justice system, have that system designed to meet the equal goals of protecting society from further immediate harm, AND from long-term harm by protecting the criminal and taking all reasonable steps to equip the criminal to not be a net drain on society when he's done his time.

Our system is shit, by original design.  From start to finish.  And yeah, like it or not, a shitload of that has to do with race, and with the 13th amendment, and with our shitty attitude of "it's their fault, fuck 'em," when in reality, you and I bear a shitload of the costs of that approach -- monetary, social, and political.  I'd like a path that doesn't cost us all so dearly and hey, if in the process, it doesn't completely fuck over OTHER people, cool bonus.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Brisketexan

[Hate 20103]

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

btw you should read the politifact link you posted @Hate - it provides additional detail that you apparently aren't aware of, despite bringing the link into the convo.

The key fact difference in these cases seems to be that Legleitner (the white defendant) had accomplices he could testify against, and Lloyd (the black defendant) did not. So when Legleitner was helpful to the prosecution, they "lobbied hard for leniency". 

Either way though, I don't see how the same fact pattern and scoring guidelines can return a 24 year delta between the two cases for a simple robbery in which the minimum sentence was just under 7 years (source - snopes factcheck)

So the brass tacks of the matter are: 

• Legleitner (born in September 1989) was 19 when he committed an armed robbery, along with five other people, on 3 November 2008. He was arrested in February 2009.
• Lloyd (born in July 1987) was 21 when he and another man committed two armed robberies in Stuart, Florida (of a Pizza Hut and a Sunoco gas station), on 18 March 2009. He was arrested later that night.
• Both Legleitner and Lloyd were charged with two counts of “robbery with a deadly weapon,” a Class D felony.
• Legleitner pled “no contest” to the charges against him on 18 November 2009, and Lloyd pled likewise on 11 March 2010.
• Both Legleitner and Lloyd had 138.2 “sentence points,” which yielded a minimum sentence of 82.65 months (just under seven years.)
• On 23 July 2010, 19th Judicial Circuit Judge Bauer sentenced Lloyd to 13 years in state prison on each of two counts, yielding a sentence of 26 years.
• On 23 June 2011, Bauer invoked a “mitigated departure” from the minimum sentence calculated from Legleitner’s sentence points and sentenced him to time already served of 722 days in Martin County jail (one year, 11 months and 27 days).

Not sure how you can logic a 5 year downward departure for helping the prosecution and simultaneously give an 19 year upward departure. Especially when the judge has a track record of 2-3x more severe sentences for dark skinned defendants (also from snopes link)

I didn't say it was justified.  I acknowledged that racism exists.  I also said that I do not know if racism played a part in this sentencing or not as I know nothing about the "sentencer".  DD came in with the usual and "raised the bar".  I realized then and there how stupid it was to post on a thread in the Cloakroom, made a smart ass comment, and then left.  You felt like it was an opportunity to pile on with some strawman about me agreeing with the judge.  Now, back to your normally scheduled circle jerk. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

24 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I believe I’m 15 years or so younger than you.  I do believe the demographics play a part in everything. That by no means that it’s any fault of blacks/minorities. But as you well know we have a special set of circumstances here that are and will forever be intertwined with our national makeup. It likely touches every aspect of our lives from the second we are born till we die.  But I think everything would be different if blacks/minorities weren’t behind the 8 ball from the get go, then longer sentences, worse jury experiences, etc list goes on. But after several generations of dealing with that, I don’t think it’s unfair to say that it’s difficult, at best, and foolish at worst, to try and compare the issues the US faces with fucking Norway.   From the time I spent there, we also have an epidemic of fat ass women because we don’t bike everywhere. Or it’s McDonalds.  

I’m aware we have a special set of circumstances here.

I have come to believe that that potential greatness we have based on that has been systematically thwarted by people interested only with maintaining their own wealth at the expense of all the rest. 

Its kind of tragic really.

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I’m aware we have a special set of circumstances here.

I have come to believe that that potential greatness we have based on that has been systematically thwarted by people interested only with maintaining their own wealth at the expense of all the rest. 

Its kind of tragic really.

I wouldn’t disagree. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

40 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

But after several generations of dealing with that

Here's one problem.  We never really deal with that.  About once every half century or so, something happens legislatively or judicially that deals with our racist past.

Certain elements of society don't even want to have an honest discussion about it.  It's CRT, yknow.

[Brisketexan 104628]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Here's one problem.  We never really deal with that.  About once every half century or so, something happens legislatively or judicially that deals with our racist past.

Certain elements of society don't even want to have an honest discussion about it.  It's CRT, yknow.

This.  We've never come to terms with slavery and what it wrought.  Or Jim Crow and what it wrought.  And if we dare bring up what centuries of institutionalized crapping on people -- both our social and legal/governmental institutions -- has done, and has not been rectified, well, we are told "get over it, racism is over, what more do you want us to do?"  I just suggest the one, easy step -- dismantle a policy that uses institutions that were conceived in racism to fulfill an admittedly racist purpose, and end the war on drugs.  That's always my starter.  It goes nowhere.  Shit, this is Texas, if we could go backwards, and impose the death penalty for MJ possession, we would do so in the next special session.

[Foosters 17734]

2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Ok so what is your solution? Lock them up forever? Kill them? 

Have you ever read a DT thread after a botched crime hits the news? Like 50% of the posters publicly salivating over the thought of torturing people to death.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Foosters

[Anastasis 23394]

Get all of the non-violent drug laws repealed and a good bit of the inequity in the justice system will get fixed. Not all.  But a good bit.

[JimmyJames 12271]

46 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Get all of the non-violent drug laws repealed and a good bit of the inequity in the justice system will get fixed. Not all.  But a good bit.

Not to be flippant but yeah I’m gonna be anyways, but duh.

Draconian drug sentencing is not a uniquely American thing, happens all the time in totalitarian regimes, but it is unique in the highly developed world. It is easily why we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

And as Americans our government has used that tool, and it is a tool, to enslave blacks and others to a life of neo slavery not much different than real slavery and Jim Crow. 

Everyone with half a brain knew the war on drugs was pointless yet we did it anyway and still do. Ask yourself why?

Edited September 21, 2021 by JimmyJames

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Ask yourself why?

Dollar dollar bill y'all. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Dollar dollar bill y'all. 

Well yeah that’s my point. Inarticulately made I’m sure. 
 

It always comes back to the dollars. Always.

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

Well yeah that’s my point. Inarticulately made I’m sure. 
 

It always comes back to the dollars. Always.

Lest we forget 1b) power. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Lest we forget 1b) power. 

Help a mid 40s guy out cause I’m not following you here. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

3 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Not sure what your … is for

No one said it’s impossible. It’s significantly more difficult for those convicted of crimes to break that cycle in this country. We have set up barriers to make it more difficult. Why can other countries solve this but we can’t. I also don’t think you know how much garbage men actually make.

I’ll tell you why, it’s because those ingrained in power like to keep it.  And expand it.  It’s human nature.  

[fattyflattie 4636]

12 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Help a mid 40s guy out cause I’m not following you here. 

Money and power, and keeping it. For the few that have it. 
 

And I had you pegged for a bit older. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Money and power, and keeping it. For the few that have it. 
 

And I had you pegged for a bit older. 

Thanks for the clarification. Born in late 73. Didn’t get aborted. So maybe a bit older than mid 40s. Close enough.