population decline

[lucious leftfoot 126]

35 minutes ago, Farmerted said:

The women /couples that are well off all have 2-4 kids average is 3 .The people that make let’s say less than 40 k have kids most are young and have 1-3

Adam Carolla has a kinda funny bit, rich man poor man. Things that rich guys and poor guys have in common. 
 

One of those is definitely, have a lot of kids.
 

Another is having several cars in your driveway. And so on. 

[CHIEF 5,075]

I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

[TKthunder2 4,985]

7 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

1234

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

25 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

Sigh. So that's how it is in their family.

j/k

Edited April 22 by Mrs Whiggins

[tbone_ 14,106]

However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 
CHIEF

So the rest of your kids sucked ass or what?

[CHIEF 5,075]

5 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

 

So the rest of your kids sucked ass or what?

 

One was enough.

CHIEF

[Wally Fairway 5,539]

14 hours ago, CHIEF said:

 However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

Dude, wait until you find out about Grandkids. They are gods gift to you for not killing your kids. 

You don't have the day-to-day with and  responsibility and financial commitment; but you can have as much of that as you want. And they are cute, loving and when they misbehave it is the parents job to work that out. 

Disclaimer - my oldest grand is not yet 10, but I can tell that by the time they are teens the while dynamic I describe will change

[Nivek 16,916]

15 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I remember both my parents and Mrs. CHIEF’s family both told us, “if you wait until you think you can afford kids, you will never have them.” This was about five years into our marriage. Mrs. CHIEF and I had been living in apartments, and were waiting until we could purchase our first home. My parents helped us, and said there is more support if you need it. Her parents did as well. 
Children are expensive, time consuming, and are a bunch of trouble. However, the day your first born arrives is the best day of your life. Everything pales in comparison. At least it does for me. 
 

CHIEF

I heard that stupid shit too.  From the same people that advised me on a graduate teaching assistants' salary I could afford a $300k home in 2007 and I should get in on this hot real estate market.    

[Surly Bevo 24,908]

It may just be as simple as more people don't have kids these days because in our connected world people have a greater realization of how challenging raising kids can be.  People gravitate toward the negative in information so they see things across all the various information mediums of the challenge financially, emotionally, time-wise, the responsibility etc, and that resonates a lot more than anybody like me saying while it is and has been those things it has also been extremely rewarding, fulfilling and wouldn't trade it for the world. 

People can easily attach to more concrete notions of "I'm gonna have less money, less time, emotional stress, and more responsibility."  It's harder to attach to the vague notions of "rewarding, fulfilling, etc".    Less money is less money...concrete, factual.  Fulfilling is an idea that varies from person to person.  Are you gonna risk what you are pretty damn certain will be the case (less money) for something you can't be certain of until you get into it (fulfilling)?

I dunno...just spitballing.  

Edited April 23 by Surly Bevo

[Brisketexan 105,057]

Why isn't it as simple as seeing why the fertility rate falls once an economy becomes developed?  Ask the question "WHY did people historically have a large number of kids?"

Seems that there were two reasons.  1) Labor.  In agrarian societies, kids are farm labor.  You need them around to keep things rolling along.  And 2) higher mortality rates.  Have 5-6 kids, hoping that 2-3 survive past age 7.

In a developed economy, neither of those factors are in play.  Child mortality is rare, and we don't need kids to milk the cows.  Thus, the only reasons to have kids are PERSONAL ones, tied to self-fulfillment and desire, and broad social values.

TLDR; dropping fertility rates are a feature, not a bug, of developed economies.  It's not much more complicated than that, and applies across cultures.  Maybe we should focus on how to make our economies more functional and resilient with that factor in mind.

[Nivek 16,916]

It is not that simple.   Pollution is also causing creating issues with fertility and impacting anogenital distance (which is correlated to fatherhood).   Wage stagnation has created a necessity for many to have dual incomes homes.  Demands from work are increasing with greater access for people to work remotely during their 'off' hours.   Obesity and meat heavy diets impacts sex drive/performance.  

 

[Anastasis 23,458]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Pollution is also causing creating issues with fertility and impacting anogenital distance (which is correlated to fatherhood). 

Taint this the truth. 

[YGIFS 19,449]

Always love a good 'taint' reference. 

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

[Don Johnson 4,752]

5 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

I love a good quantity vs. quality debate.

[CHIEF 5,075]

6 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Always love a good 'taint' reference. 

But just to be clear, father stepping out on their families & wives to possibly impregnate a woman whose possible child would likely be raised fatherless is bad?  Do I have that correct, fellas?  

In most social circles, YES. But Surly requires pics to make a determination.

CHIEF

[Sbbruin 21,829]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I love a good quantity vs. quality debate.

[Nivek 16,916]

4 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Reminds me of this old saw:

If you spoil your kids, you'll raise your grandkids.

If you raise your kids, you'll get to spoil your grandkids.

It's probably actually a great thing that there are people NOT having kids if they think it's even remotely possible they will be selfish, trauma-inducing parents (or absentee) and their kids will be a burden on others (family, society writ large, etc.).

Reminds me of this other Axiom, if you get wisdom from axioms you are a dumbfuck who was probably beaten.  

[High Plains Drifter 11,026]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is not that simple.   Pollution is also causing creating issues with fertility and impacting anogenital distance (which is correlated to fatherhood).   Wage stagnation has created a necessity for many to have dual incomes homes.  Demands from work are increasing with greater access for people to work remotely during their 'off' hours.   Obesity and meat heavy diets impacts sex drive/performance.  

 

 

wait what?

 

Did he say "anogenital" heh heh heh

 

[Texas Jeff 1,944]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Why isn't it as simple as seeing why the fertility rate falls once an economy becomes developed?

It's pretty much that simple, according to the book "Empty Planet".
Birth rates decline as women gain access to education and birth control.

[Celery Man 20,931]

[tbone_ 14,106]

It's pretty much that simple, according to the book "Empty Planet".
Birth rates decline as women gain access to education and birth control.

Well that and you don’t need 7 kids to work the farm as much anymore.

[Brisketexan 105,057]

Just now, tbone_ said:

Well that and you don’t need 7 kids to work the farm as much anymore.

Seriously.  I just think the question isn't "why aren't women having so many kids these days?" as it is "why would a woman want to have so many kids these days?"

Why would a woman want to have 4+ kids?  In developed economies, the only real motivation would be personal and social: I love kids, I love being a mom, I find it incredibly rewarding, etc.  There's no external need or push.  It's almost all internal.  That's just a by-product of a developed economy.

[tbone_ 14,106]

At 55 and the parent of one kid, what I didn’t realize earlier that I do now is that the more kids you have the better chance you have of one of them showing back up when it’s time to change your diaper.

So there is that. But no one thinks about that at a younger age when you are worried about living your best life.

[SydneyCarton 48,054]

1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

At 55 and the parent of one kid, what I didn’t realize earlier that I do now is that the more kids you have the better chance you have of one of them showing back up when it’s time to change your diaper.

So there is that. But no one thinks about that at a younger age when you are worried about living your best life.

So how are you feeling about your odds now that you've placed it all on one bet. Think you'll get your diaper changed?

[Txangel9910 217]

I'm 42...43 later this year. I've NEVER wanted kids - I don't like taking care of myself most days!  😁  But have found it rather shocking how many people say how selfish I am for not wanting to procreate.  I make good money, own my house....why NOT get married and add to society?  Because...I don't want to.  Kids know when they're not wanted and I would HATE to put a child in that situation.   Do I want to get married? Yes.  But hard pass on being a mom/stepmother.  Also...you can pre-pay for nursing homes.  Definitely looking into that.

[Paper_jam 831]

Driving to work this AM made me wish the Central Texas population would decline a whole fuckin' lot. It shouldn't take 45 minutes to go 6 miles. (In 2010, I could do this same drive in 10-12 minutes.) At this rate, in 2038 the same route will take 3 hours.

 

[Stringer 1,438]

Maybe women never wanted to have 5-6 kids (or any at all) but were forced to for labor or societal reasons. When they actually had, you know, agency, they made the decisions they always wanted to make.

[Brisketexan 105,057]

Maybe women never wanted to have 5-6 kids (or any at all) but were forced to for labor or societal reasons. When they actually had, you know, agency, they made the decisions they always wanted to make.

You should remember that the people who claim the loudest to stand for “freedom and liberty” don’t actually mean it. Women having agency is the worst thing to ever happen to humanity, and they very much want to undo it.

[lucious leftfoot 126]

There are a few places to put this, but I decided here because it's quite a shift in narrative from one of the most powerful men on the planet. The prevailing narrative has always been that you need population growth for economic growth and bankers support that, but if he's changing his mind then that has big implications. Maybe you don't need to encourage people to have kids. Maybe you don't need open borders like EU and America have to support economic growth via mass immigration. 

 

I tried to find a clip with less provocative caption, but it's an undercover clip. Also, if we decide to allow declining population, debt problem will have to be dealt with. 

[Parliament 14,236]

We’ll make the robots pay taxes, duh.

[SydneyCarton 48,054]

If it's one thing we've seen time and time again, it's that corporations will spread those savings and wealth back to customers and citizens from high taxes and no stock buybacks and such that benefit the upper management. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

 

[DixonHur 11,292]

Just a quick survey, am I the only one on this board who thinks population decline is a good thing?

[tbone_ 14,106]

Just a quick survey, am I the only one on this board who thinks population decline is a good thing?

Good for what?

[Gene Parmesan 4,002]

3 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

Good for what?

Traffic

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Just a quick survey, am I the only one on this board who thinks population decline is a good thing?

It's more interesting than good/bad to me.  It is the opposite of what we seemed to have been taught in the 1980s or whatever.  It's a relief that we aren't dooming humanity to live like sardines in the future while all resources are consumed, which is nice.  But in our lifetimes it'll be more bad than good is my guess because our economy is very hardwired with growth as an assumption.

[tbone_ 14,106]

Traffic

Yep, good for traffic for sure.

[DixonHur 11,292]

12 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

Good for what?

Everything, IMO

People are the most destructive "virus" on the planet. 

But in terms of practicality, AI is coming, meaning fewer jobs, meaning more poverty, meaning more crime, meaning more civil unrest, meaning more war, etc...

I believe the only solution is fewer people, and a system of universal basic income.

People who want to be wealthier can work at one of the fewer jobs available.

[bolverk 29,652]

40 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

 

Regardless of his proposed policies, Macron's probably not the best person to lead the messenging on that campaign. 

[UT_OB1 2,215]

I wonder why humans have this great need for some apocalyptic event that is always coming. I don’t get it. Since recorded history started, we know we’ve been predicting some apocalypse- whether it be religious, natural, external/space based, or human caused. 

[UT_OB1 2,215]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Everything, IMO

People are the most destructive "virus" on the planet. 

But in terms of practicality, AI is coming, meaning fewer jobs, meaning more poverty, meaning more crime, meaning more civil unrest, meaning more war, etc...

I believe the only solution is fewer people, and a system of universal basic income.

People who want to be wealthier can work at one of the fewer jobs available.

 

There a many species I’d rather rid the earth of first. Fire ants and mosquitoes are 1a and 1b. Sooners are in the top 5 too. 

[DixonHur 11,292]

2 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

I wonder why humans have this great need for some apocalyptic event that is always coming. I don’t get it. Since recorded history started, we know we’ve been predicting some apocalypse- whether it be religious, natural, external/space based, or human caused. 

To be fair, there have been multiple extinction events on planet Earth, so it's not exactly pure fantasy.

[DixonHur 11,292]

5 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

There a many species I’d rather rid the earth of first. Fire ants and mosquitoes are 1a and 1b. Sooners are in the top 5 too. 

Well, that's a level of stupid I didn't expect.  Hoping it's an attempt at comedy...if so, don't quit your day job, and if not...

Yes, ants and mosquitos are destroying the planet.

Edited May 10 by DixonHur

[UT_OB1 2,215]

13 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Well, that's a level of stupid I didn't expect.  Hoping it's an attempt at comedy...if so, don't quit your day job, and if not...

Yes, ants and mosquitos are destroying the planet.

No it wasn’t. The whole Agent Smith was right humans are a virus that should go away is a level of stupid that you should keep confined to the CR. 

[hookem2010 2,623]

You can think humans aren't a virus that need be eradicated while still believing that our march to 10 billion people will have devastating consequences.

[hookem2010 2,623]

And by will have devastating consequences, I mean is having devastating consequences currently. It's not just a turtle going extinct here or there. Biodiversity loss will harm future generations of humans. So I believe that while population decline may put a financial burden on generations such as my own, fewer people consuming less is a good thing long-term, for both people and the planet.

Insect populations plummeting

North America has lost 3 BILLION birds

All wildlife populations collapsing

Massive loss of natural habitat

Fisheries are depleted

[Biff Tannen 45,663]

31 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

No it wasn’t. The whole Agent Smith was right humans are a virus that should go away is a level of stupid that you should keep confined to the CR. 

Why CR?  What's political about it?

[hookem2010 2,623]

I'm confused if people are unaware of these facts, don't believe them, don't care or don't think that it will impact them or their offspring. It baffles me, honestly.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

9 minutes ago, hookem2010 said:

I'm confused if people are unaware of these facts, don't believe them, don't care or don't think that it will impact them or their offspring. It baffles me, honestly.

Because the concept of insect populations and their place in the food chain/world is confusing for some people. National Geographic had a nice gen pop article about insect populations several years ago that was quite informative.

[DixonHur 11,292]

39 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

No it wasn’t. The whole Agent Smith was right humans are a virus that should go away is a level of stupid that you should keep confined to the CR. 

Um, that was a movie...but our DNA is literally 8% virus.

The viruses that helped to make you human (bbc.com)