30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

[Don Johnson 4744]

54 minutes ago, Stunns38 said:

So, why wouldn’t 4 straight years of grueling playoffs plus the Olympics fatigue the Bulls despite the off season of rest? Plus Kukoc had to adjust to the NBA in 94 and we lost Horace. What we did in 94 without MJ really shows how great Pippen and Phil Jackson were.

Why would it?  You argue that the Bulls were exhausted in 92-93 (yet still won the title) after they (Jordan and Pippen) didn't get the off season to rest due to the Olympics.  Now you want to know why they might be more rested the next season without the Olympics?   Pippen had probably the best season of his career that year, so he clearly wasn't fatigued.

Jordan's last 3 years (95-98) with the Bulls he averaged over 38 minutes per game and played 246 out of 246 possible games while winning 3 titles.   I fail to see why a 30 year old Jordan is going to hit a wall of exhaustion in 93-94.

And Horace Grant was on the 93-94 team.  You would've had the same team from 92-93 coming back with a full off season of rest and added Kukoc (and Kerr).  Again 55 wins without Jordan.

[bullzak 407]

As for the 8 peat MJ has said many times they were burned out and it wouldn't have happened. 

Its worth noting MJ didn't have his best NBA body for Orlando loss season. He lost like 20 pounds going into the next year and was Michael Fucking Jordan again. 

Heard all the rumors he was suspended for gambling etc. but I have run into a lot of guys who would probably know something more on it and I have never heard anything very solid. Dont really buy it but dont care either. 

The guy is no saint but at least he never denies that. Pretty straight shooter in interviews. 

This series is like crack. Cant get enough. 

[Michael Knight 12853]

 

18 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Reinsdorf saying yeah Scotty shouldn't have signed that long contract, like he was looking out for him was just comedy gold. He was laughing all the way to the bank for several years.

Yep MJ should have held out, why didn't he ?  Cause he was MJ.

Jordan was very critical of Pippen for not showing up to work.

 

52 minutes ago, Deej said:

It was an asshole move, but Jordan was known to be a pretty big asshole. It was just amazing to watch it happen, and that nobody bothered to ever step in. Jordan could do whatever he wanted. I wonder how that would go over today, with everything making it on the the internet instantaneously. I knew there was no love lost, but how brazenly Jordan went after him was crazy. Somebody would capture that on their phone now and post it. 

No one would take Krause's side these days, people would be clamoring for his firing immediately. Jerry would be under so much pressure to keep the team together things would have played out much differently, no Jordan to the Wizards for sure.

[aggie08 21300]

I think my favorite part of the first two episodes was Phil being interviewed in '97, explaining how coaching salaries have skyrocketed above GM contracts, purposely leading the reporter to ask the blatantly obvious question: "Do you think you making more money than him is cause for some of this friction?"

"I don't want to speculate on that."

Such fucking classic Phil.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Michael Knight said:

 

Jordan was very critical of Pippen for not showing up to work.

 

No one would take Krause's side these days, people would be clamoring for his firing immediately. Jerry would be under so much pressure to keep the team together things would have played out much differently, no Jordan to the Wizards for sure.

Yes he did. Kind of throwing him under the bus a bit,  but MJ was no pal to anyone.

[Deej 76400]

Someone would take his side. No one that follows basketball, but some Twitter folks would be calling him out. It's what they do. And then taking heads would run with it. Imagine Skip Bayless' indignity. 

[Don Johnson 4744]

20 minutes ago, Iceman said:

That is an incredible premise.  Has a player in any sport ever held out for his bro?  I cannot think of one.

It probably would have been effective as hell.

Jordan would've been justified to hold out for himself, as he was grossly underpaid for much of his career.  In 95-96, he was league MVP, they won 72 games and he was the 32nd highest paid player in the NBA.  But we know wasn't going to do that.

Pippen just signed a bad deal.  It made him one of the highest paid in the league, initially, but he traded length for value.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Don Johnson

[Michael Knight 12853]

Pippen wound up making more than Jordan in NBA contracts

[jkates 310]

A solid start to the series. It jumped around a little, but I understand they are trying to tell the story of the 97-98 team AND the story of Jordan AND the history of some key players all at once. Soundtrack was awesome.

[Hate 20095]

It’s been long enough since the Bulls dynasty was ongoing that a bunch of people watching the show would have no context to understand the “issues” the 97-98 Bulls faced and why it all ended the way it did. They have to tell the complete story or a good percentage of people watching won’t get it. For those of us who lived through Jordan becoming the GOAT, it’s a great trip down memory lane. I loved seeing the UNC footage as well as the early Bulls footage. I remember watching the 86 playoff game against the Celtics and just thinking to myself “holy shit, what was that” and I grew up watching one of the best scorers in NBA history, George Gervin.

[jkates 310]

4 minutes ago, Hate said:

It’s been long enough since the Bulls dynasty was ongoing that a bunch of people watching the show would have no context to understand the “issues” the 97-98 Bulls faced and why it all ended the way it did. They have to tell the complete story or a good percentage of people watching won’t get it. For those of us who lived through Jordan becoming the GOAT, it’s a great trip down memory lane. I loved seeing the UNC footage as well as the early Bulls footage. I remember watching the 86 playoff game against the Celtics and just thinking to myself “holy shit, what was that” and I grew up watching one of the best scorers in NBA history, George Gervin.

I agree that they need to provide the backstory. There were just a few times when I thought it was too choppy or jumpy, and a few other times where it didn't go deep enough on an issue. Just a small criticism. Overall, I give the first 2 episodes an A-. Looking forward to more. DVR set. 

[Burt Macklin 18984]

2 hours ago, Stunns38 said:

So, why wouldn’t 4 straight years of grueling playoffs plus the Olympics fatigue the Bulls despite the off season of rest? Plus Kukoc had to adjust to the NBA in 94 and we lost Horace. What we did in 94 without MJ really shows how great Pippen and Phil Jackson were.

It was pretty cool seeing some of those Pippen highlights at Central Arkansas too. I didn’t realize he started as student manager. He’s the ultimate walk on success story. He may be the greatest walk on to ever play any sport, especially considering he was a walk on at an NAIA school, not D1. 

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Jerry Reinsdorf trying to distance himself from the implosion is pretty comical.  Breaking up the Bulls was about money/ego, not trying to get a head start on the future.  Reinsdorf wasn't going to pay MJ/Pipp/Phil $60M to come back with the lockout looming.  He and Krause were lock-step.

Even in the documentary he can't help himself: "You never would have heard of Phil Jackson without Jerry Krause."

Reinsdorf doesn’t get nearly enough shit for being such a horrible owner. He’s easily one of the worst owners in sports that was bailed out by lucking into MJ/Pippen. He cheaps out at every turn and makes horrible staff decisions, outside of lucking into the greatest team in history, of course. 

1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

Yeah, I was pretty young at the time. I didn’t realize how massively underpaid he was. In today’s NBA, he would’ve probably held out like two years in, or at least held out when MJ walked away. 

50 minutes ago, Michael Knight said:

No one would take Krause's side these days, people would be clamoring for his firing immediately. Jerry would be under so much pressure to keep the team together things would have played out much differently, no Jordan to the Wizards for sure.

You’d have to think the media and social media outrage would’ve changed how that played out, but who knows? Reinsdorf and good ole Crumbs are monumental assholes with small dick syndrome. All the outrage might’ve made them double down that much more. 

[crash_davis 23076]

great read to understand how this got made and why jordan finally agreed to release it.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29044827/an-all-access-michael-jordan-documentary-how-last-dance-was-made-possible

[Not a cat 5601]

55 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

 but he traded length for value.

[crash_davis 23076]

good insight from the director, especially why he structured the show the way he did.

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by crash_davis

[Stunns38 3354]

Talking about trading length for value, Madonna (not so quietly) bragged about how “big” Pippen was and how good he was in bed. MJ being his ultra competitive self tried to one up Pippen and sleep with Madonna himself but according to her, she rejected him.

[Stunns38 3354]

Why would it?  You argue that the Bulls were exhausted in 92-93 (yet still won the title) after they (Jordan and Pippen) didn't get the off season to rest due to the Olympics.  Now you want to know why they might be more rested the next season without the Olympics?   Pippen had probably the best season of his career that year, so he clearly wasn't fatigued.
Jordan's last 3 years (95-98) with the Bulls he averaged over 38 minutes per game and played 246 out of 246 possible games while winning 3 titles.   I fail to see why a 30 year old Jordan is going to hit a wall of exhaustion in 93-94.
And Horace Grant was on the 93-94 team.  You would've had the same team from 92-93 coming back with a full off season of rest and added Kukoc (and Kerr).  Again 55 wins without Jordan.

Good response but we can just agree to disagree. I totally overlooked Horace not leaving until the 95 season.

[crash_davis 23076]

the below comment from the director is another example of why MJ is the greatest. the mofo wanted to win, no matter what.

this is not a slight against pippen as it is more of an holy shit, MJ is maniacal in his resolve that winning is the only thing that matters.

 

[Vic Mackey 46857]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

It’s been long enough since the Bulls dynasty was ongoing that a bunch of people watching the show would have no context to understand the “issues” the 97-98 Bulls faced and why it all ended the way it did. They have to tell the complete story or a good percentage of people watching won’t get it. For those of us who lived through Jordan becoming the GOAT, it’s a great trip down memory lane. I loved seeing the UNC footage as well as the early Bulls footage. I remember watching the 86 playoff game against the Celtics and just thinking to myself “holy shit, what was that” and I grew up watching one of the best scorers in NBA history, George Gervin.

This is great for me because my vivid memories of Jordan started in 94-95. I was 10 during that season. When Orlando beat him. Then he had his second 3peat from 96-98. That's the Jordan I remember. And then his Wizards tenure. I didn't watch him in the 80s when he had to pay his dues or his first 3 peat days. 

 

[someguy 1469]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Reinsdorf doesn’t get nearly enough shit for being such a horrible owner. He’s easily one of the worst owners in sports that was bailed out by lucking into MJ/Pippen. He cheaps out at every turn and makes horrible staff decisions, outside of lucking into the greatest team in history, of course. 

I had no idea that Krause was a freaking baseball scout who successfully lobbied Reinsdorf for the NBA GM job.  Can you imagine that today?  A freaking baseball scout going to be the GM of an NBA team.  I love how in the doc Reinsdorf says he ran it by basketball guys in the league and everyone said it was a bad idea, but Reinsdorf didn't care because he wanted someone to build a team his way.

I realize that Krause did make good moves and was fairly successful at the basketball talent identification part of the job, but holy hell what a terrible decision making process that somehow turned out sort of ok.

[Constant 6696]

No surprise it was an excellent show. Looking forward to the rest of the episodes. 
 

It surprised me that I forgot just how good MJ was. I already considered him the best ever, but I still forgot just how quick and explosive he was. Defenders would react to his first move while he was completing the second move and 12ft in the air shooting the ball. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Constant said:

No surprise it was an excellent show. Looking forward to the rest of the episodes. 
 

It surprised me that I forgot just how good MJ was. I already considered him the best ever, but I still forgot just how quick and explosive he was. Defenders would react to his first move while he was completing the second move and 12ft in the air shooting the ball. 

It almost looks like they're speeding up footage of some of his drives to the rim.

[Deej 76400]

Between this and the 3 part 30 for 30 on the Lakes/Celtics rivalry, I'm in heaven. Basketball was so great for two decades 

[Stunns38 3354]

I had no idea that Krause was a freaking baseball scout who successfully lobbied Reinsdorf for the NBA GM job.  Can you imagine that today?  A freaking baseball scout going to be the GM of an NBA team.  I love how in the doc Reinsdorf says he ran it by basketball guys in the league and everyone said it was a bad idea, but Reinsdorf didn't care because he wanted someone to build a team his way.
I realize that Krause did make good moves and was fairly successful at the basketball talent identification part of the job, but holy hell what a terrible decision making process that somehow turned out sort of ok.

Reinsdorf also screwed up that good early 90s White Sox team with Frank Thomas, McDowell, Bo Jackson(even not at 100%), Raines, etc. broke it up prematurely.

[Don Johnson 4744]

 

[HoffaJimmy 316]

A few things on the whole Jordan/Pippen vs. Reinsdorf/Krause 

1. That love/hate relationship pretty much occurs with every sports franchise between star players and owner/management/coaching staff to some extent. That's just the way the shit works when you are dealing with that amount of ego

2. Krause had MASSIVE small man's disease and wanted more credit then he deserved but he also deserved more credit than he got/gets for putting those teams together.

3. Jordan WAS Jordan. I have no issue with him poking fun at Krause at all. Unprofessional? Sure, but who the fuck cares, the way Krause aired his dirty laundry in the public was also something he shouldn't have done.

4. I don't blame Reinsdorf for not signing Scottie to a better contract but he sure as hell should have given him an extension. Krause's ego just got in the way and Reinsdorf was too stupid to fire his ass.  

 

[Hate 20095]

57 minutes ago, Deej said:

Between this and the 3 part 30 for 30 on the Lakes/Celtics rivalry, I'm in heaven. Basketball was so great for two decades 

They should do a 30 for 30 on the Golden Age of College Basketball that Jordan helped usher in.  I don't remember him hitting the game winning shot in 82, but I do remember his 83 and 84 seasons.  I remember that kicking off some great years fro college basketball.  IMO, the golden age was from 82-2000 (could be 1996 though).  After that, all of the best players went straight into the NBA or we have the one and done players we have now. 

[Not a cat 5601]

10 minutes ago, Hate said:

They should do a 30 for 30 on the Golden Age of College Basketball that Jordan helped usher in.  I don't remember him hitting the game winning shot in 82, but I do remember his 83 and 84 seasons.  I remember that kicking off some great years fro college basketball.  IMO, the golden age was from 82-2000 (could be 1996 though).  After that, all of the best players went straight into the NBA or we have the one and done players we have now. 

I think you start the college documentary in 1979 w the magic/bird final four.

[Hate 20095]

And that's fair.  79-2000 sound good? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

31 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I think you start the college documentary in 1979 w the magic/bird final four.

That's ground zero right there. I rememeber that tourney, and the games leading up to that meeting.

[bluto 4861]

I thought they did a doc on the big east high water mark

[Deej 76400]

Two episodes in, and any question of Jordan or Lebron should be settled. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, bluto said:

I thought they did a doc on the big east high water mark

They did I thought . The big beast was the most entertaining conference in college during the late 70's, 80's in terms of how heated the rivalries were.  It was street ball time.

[Underdog 28392]

4 hours ago, Stunns38 said:

Talking about trading length for value, Madonna (not so quietly) bragged about how “big” Pippen was and how good he was in bed. MJ being his ultra competitive self tried to one up Pippen and sleep with Madonna himself but according to her, she rejected him.

Didn't Rodman hook up with her later on? 

 

We saw Jordan score his 25,000th point against the Spurs, so many bandwagon Bulls fan, it was like a rock group was in town.  

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Underdog

[conVINCEd 21468]

4 hours ago, Stunns38 said:

Talking about trading length for value, Madonna (not so quietly) bragged about how “big” Pippen was and how good he was in bed. MJ being his ultra competitive self tried to one up Pippen and sleep with Madonna himself but according to her, she rejected him.

I believe Madonna was talking about Rodman,  not Pippen.

[Stunns38 3354]

Didn't Rodman hook up with her later on? 

 

We saw Jordan score his 25,000th point against the Spurs, so many bandwagon Bulls fan, it was like a rock group was in town.  

 

I’m not sure the order but she hooked up with both. I think she wrote about it.

 

 

https://brobible.com/sports/article/michael-jordan-jealous-madonna-scottie-pippen/amp/

[Stunns38 3354]

I believe Madonna was talking about Rodman,  not Pippen.

She banged both, see above post.

[conVINCEd 21468]

2 minutes ago, Stunns38 said:

She banged both, see above post.

Did not know about Pippen.  Good for her, I guess.

[Stunns38 3354]

Did not know about Pippen.  Good for her, I guess.

Well, she probably banged half the athletes and music stars in the 80s and 90s.

[TexasMan 10736]

 

[Iceman 2624]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Two episodes in, and any question of Jordan or Lebron should be settled. 

I bet more people who actually watched both play have a pretty damned significant Jordan lean.

Justifiably so.

[hundredTT 576]

Lovvved the documentary so far, but listening to sports radio you’d think Michael Jordan was a dumpster baby risen from the ashes, and this doc is along the lines of The Godfather. But those blowhard shows do the same over the top analysis for everything; corona magnifies it by 10. Can’t wait for the next installment! 

Edited April 20, 2020 by hundredTT

[Iceman 2624]

2 hours ago, Hate said:

They should do a 30 for 30 on the Golden Age of College Basketball that Jordan helped usher in.  I don't remember him hitting the game winning shot in 82, but I do remember his 83 and 84 seasons.  I remember that kicking off some great years fro college basketball.  IMO, the golden age was from 82-2000 (could be 1996 though).  After that, all of the best players went straight into the NBA or we have the one and done players we have now. 

Ralph Sampson and Dream/ Phi Slamma Jamma had every bit as much to do with that surge in popularity.  Coaches like John Thompson, yes Bobby Knight, and Dean Smith all lent themselves to building the competition/ rivalries. Then Tark...

Edited April 21, 2020 by Iceman

[Hate 20095]

I bet more people who actually watched both play have a pretty damned significant Jordan lean.
Justifiably so.

Completely agree. I’ve seen them both play and there has never been a question in my mind. Jordan wanted to win before anything else and took advantage of what came as a result of championships. LeBron wanted to establish an empire from the beginning and that seemed to be just as important as winning to him. LeBron is a great player, but he’s not Jordan.

[tbone_ 14016]

Then Tark...

That team was so sick.

[Goo Punch 4275]

At the end of the day LeBron wants to be a mogul, and Michael Jordan wants to crush your soul. Even if you're on his team. 

[Vic Mackey 46857]

2 hours ago, Deej said:

Two episodes in, and any question of Jordan or Lebron should be settled. 

And any question that Jordan needed Pippen's help should put to rest. He did without any doubt. He even said so much. Most of the Jordan fans claimed he did it all on his own and Lebron is the only one who needed help. Every damn player in the NBA helps. The last time I can remember one single player carrying his team was in 2007 when Lebron took a god awful roster to the Finals. And especially in these days with how everyone is teaming up and stacking the teams. No way in hell you can only do it with one star.

Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

 

Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.

It's all about rings, and trophies when GOAT is on the line.  

[Don Johnson 4744]

Jordan would’ve never followed someone like DWade around like a little puppy dog. 

As Jordan said, from his first day on the Bulls he targeted the team captain and went after him. LBJ was perfectly happy to be second fiddle to someone who wasn’t as good as him.  
 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Don Johnson

[Stunns38 3354]

Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.

He sure didn’t get a pass during the Pistons/Bad Boy era. I’m sure an episode will be dedicated to this.