30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Wayne Gretzky is so far and away the greatest hockey player ever, that if you took away every goal he ever scored he would *still* be the all time NHL points leader. Gretzky is the GOAT of GOAT's. There's an argument to be made for more than one person as the GOAT in any sport I can think of except for hockey. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, Not a cat said:

My son, who is in a constant argument with me about LBJ being the goat, pointed me to some YouTube commentary that basically said the changing of the defensive rules in the early 2000s would make Jordan less effective today.  No more isolation moves that were Jordan's bread and butter and since his career 3 pt % is low compared to the players of today he'd have trouble scoring as much.

My response was do you think for a second if 3s were the most important part of the game he wouldn't spend all summer practicing from long range until he was hitting 50%?  I mean he's watched all 8 episodes with me, has he just not been paying attention?  

Kids are stoopid. You know that right ?  If you didn't see Jordan play you can't even begin to know how friggin great he was.

I watched him his whole college, and pro career, and I go how the fuck did he do that watching the clips in the documentary.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, there are players who were statistically better than Jordan.  Who won more rings than Jordan.  Who did better with a less great supporting cast than Jordan.  But Jordan is still the best ever to most of us, but we can at least acknowledge he has close competition on the Mount Rushmore of NBA hoops.  

But Gretzky was statistically the best.  In terms of eyeball test, he was the best.  In terms of hardware, he was the best.  He was just so far and away, that nobody even bothers to debate it.  If they made that documentary, nobody would even show up for the opposing argument interviews.  

The only downside of his career is China goes and produces the greatest opening ceremonies of an Olympics probably ever.  Two years later, Canada gets to host the Winter Games and feature her favorite son---Wayne Gretzky.  And what do they do to show up China...they have Wayne stand up in the bed of a Chevy pickup truck and ride through Vancouver.  It was then I had my doubts he was the God we made him out to be growing up on the ice of Chicago.  

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

Kids are stoopid. You know that right ?  If you didn't see Jordan play you can't even begin to know how friggin great he was.
I watched him his whole college, and pro career, and I go how the fuck did he do that watching the clips in the documentary.

I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team

[TommyGufano 6,021]

9 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team

8. But I don't disagree. Esp capping it off with the 2018 run, which was more of a one-man show than the oft-sited 2007 run.

[Hate 20,108]

When you look at the Eastern Conference over the time of LeBron's going to 8 straight ECF, it becomes less impressive.  From 2011 on,  LeBron's team was clearly the best team in the Eastern Conference and it's not even close.  There is a zero percent chance he goes to 8 straight in the Western Conference.  That's not to say he isn't a great player, because he is.  The Eastern Conference was pretty much trash during his 8 straight Finals appearances. 

[Chet Steadman 940]

This documentary is incredible.  I have laughed out loud multiple times.  So many great characters.  MJ watching Gary Payton‘s commentary on the ‘96 Finals was aces.  

Btw, we’re eight episodes in and we have not heard John Tesh’s music even once.

Travesty.  

[UDontKnow 10,445]

43 minutes ago, Chet Steadman said:

This documentary is incredible.  I have laughed out loud multiple times.  So many great characters.  MJ watching Gary Payton‘s commentary on the ‘96 Finals was aces.  

Btw, we’re eight episodes in and we have not heard John Tesh’s music even once.

Travesty.  

Here you go, Chet. Not surprising that ESPN (an ABC company) would turn down the opportunity to use something so widely associated with NBC. Pretty amazing story on how John Tesh came up with the idea for Roundball Rock and sang it over the phone to record it on his answering machine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundball_Rock

(1:17 for the actual theme)

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by UDontKnow

[Goo Punch 4,275]

LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Goo Punch

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Also, I like how LeBron insisted that Miami was D Wade's team, made a big deal about how D Wade was Peanut Butter while LeBron himself was just the jelly, and then he turns around and calmly, and without a trace of irony, says, "Yeah and then I hit that shot and cemented myself as the greatest of all time."

MJ was a killer. LeBron is a kid in the body of a mythical creature. They are not the same. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Goo Punch

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Game 7 of the NBA Finals and your team is down by 8 points with 5 minutes to go. Rank in order the following players, from who you'd most want to be your team's best player/leader, to who you'd least want to be you teams best player/leader in this situation:

MJ, Magic, Larry Bird, Kobe, LeBron

That also happens to be my order. LeBron's ability to create for others is enticing, but Kobe can actually shoot and also has a killer mentality, so I've put him ahead of LeBron. I don't see an argument for either of those two to be ahead of any of my top 3 in that situation. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Goo Punch

[Revolution512 1,487]

LeBron impresses because he grew up in an era of social media that anointed him as the best. He also backed it up from the age of 14.

Hes no Jordan and he never will be. He simply isn’t that skilled nor does he have that determination 

[Brothahorn 10,087]

Gourmand is Craig Ehlo.

[Post Oak 20,213]

I remember other players fearing MJ.  Not the other greats but run of the mill players.  

I remember reading stories from then saying don't piss him off.

On B. Simmons podcast today he read his argument from his BoB book on why MJ is the greatest.

At the end he tells a story about the summer before he decides to play for the WiZards. 

He's at some charity or summer league thing and Paul Pierce is giving him shit.  You're too old.  It's our time now.  His coach Jim O'Brien sees what's happening and runs over and pulls Pierce away.  "Never talk to him". " "that's the one guy you don't fuck with". 

We need to defend this wall..

[Pam Cummings 9,641]

7 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

Lebron has a better career shooting % than MJ,  even with his free throw woes....to say that Lebron isn't as skilled as other greats is laughable.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lebron has a better career shooting % than MJ,  even with his free throw woes....to say that Lebron isn't as skilled as other greats is laughable.

a 6'8" physical monster who can jump four feet in the air has a good shooting percentage? get out! 

also, define "other greats". is he as skilled as MJ, Magic, Larry, Kobe, Hakeem, Zeke, etc? because I don't think he is. 

[Pam Cummings 9,641]

8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

a 6'8" physical monster who can jump four feet in the air has a good shooting percentage? get out! 

also, define "other greats". is he as skilled as MJ, Magic, Larry, Kobe, Hakeem, Zeke, etc? because I don't think he is. 

You act like all the other guys on the floor aren't also gigantic physical monsters lol. Yeah theoretically they should all shoot great but they don't.

He is every bit as skilled as those other guys. You have Kobe ahead of him on your list but Kobe missed the playoffs in one of his prime years. That is a huge strike right there for an all time great. Especially considering the bad Cavs teams Lebron was slogging through the playoffs with during his first runs. And they were so terrible after he left, they were in the lottery for the next, what, 5 years? I mean who was his second best player on those teams, Antwan Jamison? Boobie?

 

Oh, and now that i think of it, Larry Bird might be as impressive of a player as i've ever seen. MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, and Magic might be my true top 5. With me throwing Duncan in the mix when i feel like being a Spurs homer and trolling.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pam Cummings

[Goo Punch 4,275]

You say, "he is every bit as skilled as those guys", and immediately follow it up with an entire paragraph about how Kobe missed the playoffs one time and how LeBron's teammates were no good. When were you planning on backing up the assertion that LeBron is as skilled as the likes of MJ, Magic, and Bird?

[Pam Cummings 9,641]

You're asking me to refute a point you never made. You just said "he's not as skilled as those other guys". You had no data or method of backing up that point. So yeah, i don't know what you want me to say. The guy isn't a top 3 scorer and top 10 assist man without having skill.

 

And re-reading your post, nobody worth a shit thinks that Shaq wasn't HIGHLY talented. He was fat and lazy. There's a reason Kobe fucking hated him when they played together. If Shaq had the mentality of a Kobe or an MJ or Lebron he might be the best player ever. But he didn't keep himself in good shape and have the career longevity and success on the back end of a guy like Duncan. And now he wants to cry when people pretty much universally consider Duncan to be the better player.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pam Cummings

[TommyGufano 6,021]

Just now, Goo Punch said:

You say, "he is every bit as skilled as those guys", and immediately follow it up with an entire paragraph about how Kobe missed the playoffs one time and how LeBron's teammates were no good. When were you planning on backing up the assertion that LeBron is as skilled as the likes of MJ, Magic, and Bird?

I guess I'm confused by what we're aiming for when proving "skill" -- because I think of LeBron as being highly skilled. Tight handle, elite passer, versatile defender and among the best shot selection in the game (I view attempts at the rim/getting to the line as something that should be celebrated; not a demerit). Is "skill" just shooting?

Had more difficulty finding shot charts than I thought: these are just from one season (but very good seasons for each player). I think the notion that Kobe is a better shooter is overstated if not flawed. LeBron is certainly a better shooter/scorer than Magic could ever claim to be. Maybe MJ ends up a great 3-pt shooter in today's era. I like his chances, but Kobe is oft-cited as someone who similarly worked tirelessly at his craft and it never really happened for him.

 

 

 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

40 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I guess I'm confused by what we're aiming for when proving "skill" -- because I think of LeBron as being highly skilled.

And nobody said he isn't. The question is whether or not he is as skilled as the other greats at the top of the list, and the answer is a pretty clear "no" when it comes to Magic, Michael, and Larry. How many skills (if any) does LeBron have that are superior to all three of those players?

•His best skill is his passing (and he has a very high basketball IQ), but guess what? Magic and Larry are also two of the greatest passers ever (both better than LBJ imo), and both have higher basketball IQs.

•Jordan and Bird are far superior shooters, particularly from the line, and even more so during crunch time. Again, this is not a conversation about "is LeBron James talented", it's about where his basketball talent stacks up against the other all time greats. As a shooter, LeBron is nothing special-below average, depending on the shot. There isn't a spot on the court where he's a better shooter than these two. 

•Magic, MJ, and Bird all have better handle than LeBron. 

•LeBron is a good all around defender, but he is nowhere near MJ's level as a man defender. 

•Gonna make a whole nother bullet point to re-emphasize the fact that the guy cannot shoot FTs, and is in fact notorious for clanging dozens of horrid crunch time atte it's over the years. this cannot be overlooked

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook. 

so yeah. he's an all time great, but talent-wise he does not match up with the very best. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Goo Punch

[TommyGufano 6,021]

1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

And nobody said he isn't. The question is whether or not he is as skilled as the other greats at the top of the list, and the answer is a pretty clear "no" when it comes to Magic, Michael, and Larry. How many skills (if any) does LeBron have that are superior to all three of those players?

•His best skill is his passing (and he has a very high basketball IQ), but guess what? Magic and Larry are also two of the greatest passers ever (both better than LBJ imo), and both have higher basketball IQs.

•Jordan and Bird are far superior shooters, particularly from the line, and even more so during crunch time. Again. this is not a conversation about "is LeBron James talented", it's about where his basketball talent stacks up against the other all time greats. As a shooter, LeBron nothing special-below average, depending on the shot. There isn't a spot on the court where he's a better shooter than these two. 

•Magic, MJ, and Bird all have better handle than LeBron. 

•LeBron is a good all around defender, but he is nowhere near MJ's level as a man defender. 

•Gonna make a whole nother bullet point to re-emphasize the fact that the guy cannot shoot FTs, and is in fact notorious for clanging dozens of horrid crunch time atte it's over the years. this cannot be overlooked

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook. 

so yeah. he's an all time great, but talent-wise he does not match up with the very best. 

 

I find it strange that you want to hand wave athleticism in the same thread you demand MJ is the GOAT (which he is). What a strange line of argument. If you put MJ in Jose Calderon's body is he even as good as Jose Calderon? That's obviously an important question that demands much thought.

[bullzak 422]

Last 70 years,  Ex-Jordan, there have been two seasons where a player was the scoring champ and won the NBA title. 

Jordan did it six times. 

In an era where you could flat out mug someone without a foul, and they did it all the time. 

All NBA first team defense 9 times. 

Funny to watch people twist themselves into knots trying to argue he wasn't the GOAT. Dude would average 40 a game in todays NBA without breaking a sweat. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by bullzak
Because I felt like it.

[immortal13 4,059]

Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

I think Jordan lubed himself up with WD-40 the way he squeezed thru defenses at the rim.

[Gourmand 7,774]

10 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

Gourmand is Craig Ehlo.

NO. Hakeem Olajuwon  motherfucker. And Mad Max. 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

I wanted to repost my last bullet point because I wanted to get other's opinions on this:

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook.

I think Steph is more talented than LeBron and it's not even close. So I obviously don't think that LBJ is anywhere near as talented basketball-wise as Magic, MJ, or Bird.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Goo Punch

[Not a cat 5,657]

I'm nowhere near the basketball guru as others on this thread and haven't seriously watched the NBA in years.  With that disclaimer out of the way, what little I've seen of his game I think LeBron is the most physically talented player ever, including curry and the Holy Trinity of Magic, MJ and Bird.  Honestly if someone was screwing around in a lab making basketball's Vitruvian man it would look like him. 

Obviously that doesn't mean I think he's necessarily better than the others (especially Jordan)  because those bastards would cut throats to win. 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

yes, physically speaking i seriously believe he is the greatest athlete to have ever lived. only in mythology does a creature exist who is 6'8", 250+ lbs of muscle, with sprinter speed and olympic-level leaping ability. seriously- what human *ever* can match LeBron as an athlete? I don't think anyone can.

that said, as far as basketball skills go, his vision/IQ/passing are his only elite skills that I see. As a shooter he's not even particularly good; ball handling he's good, but nowhere near elite; as a man defender he's fine but far from elite; he gets a lot of rebounds, but is he a particularly great rebounder? no, he isn't. and again, and I can't get over this, because it's completely inexcusable, the man can't shoot FTs, and is particularly bad when the heat is on. dude has been a professional since the 9th grade and he still can't shoot FTs. he's an amazing basketball player, and frankly to have the skill he does have with his size and strength is amazing; but when comparing his skill to the top 1% of players ever it's not particularly close.

 

[Hate 20,108]

LeBron is 3-6 in The Finals and two of those (2013 & 2017) were gifts.  If the Eastern Conference wasn't complete trash from 2011-2019 then LeBron doesn't go to 8 straight Finals.  He basically had a bye during the playoff for 8 years.  Now, I will say that LeBron was basically a one man team for many of those years as I don't really think too much of Kryie or Love, so to drag some horrible teams to the Finals 8 straight years is pretty impressive.  Hell, LeBron could have taken last year's Lakers team to the Finals in the Eastern Conference 2011-2018. 

[UDontKnow 10,445]

2 hours ago, Hate said:

LeBron is 3-6 in The Finals and two of those (2013 & 2017) were gifts.  If the Eastern Conference wasn't complete trash from 2011-2019 then LeBron doesn't go to 8 straight Finals.  He basically had a bye during the playoff for 8 years.  Now, I will say that LeBron was basically a one man team for many of those years as I don't really think too much of Kryie or Love, so to drag some horrible teams to the Finals 8 straight years is pretty impressive.  Hell, LeBron could have taken last year's Lakers team to the Finals in the Eastern Conference 2011-2018. 

Agree with most of your post. But if no Kyrie, no championship for Cleveland over the NBA's greatest regular season team ever! 

[texaslong 678]

10 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

I watched a Lakers-Clippers game this year and Lebron would just run through defenders to get to the rim. Literally head down, pick up the dribble, and just run through defenders like a running back. Half the time he was getting bailed out by the ref. His play this year has been extremely hard to watch. 

[Hate 20,108]

12 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Agree with most of your post. But if no Kyrie, no championship for Cleveland over the NBA's greatest regular season team ever! 

And that's fair.  Kyrie had a great run and is very talented.  He's just a weird dude. He will never be the best player on a team that wins a title.

[Mdhorn 5,949]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:03 AM, Goo Punch said:

LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

When Jordan began adjusting his game to avoid taking a beating down the lane, he worked on and began taking more outside shots.  Bron has never been a consistent threat from the outside.  In fact, I'd think teams would rather he take outside shots.  

If I was a big man guarding Shaq, I'd plant my feen in front of the basket with my arms straight up in the air and Shaq would murder me in the paint while I got called for the foul.  Saw Bradley do exactly this--get his nose busted and get called for the foul.  Shaq wasn't going to finesse or dazzle anybody with fancy footwork--usually he was going to go over or through the defender.  He is really quick with a big, wide body.  He could keep a defender on his hip, spin and dunk and there's zippo the defender could do about it except hope for a 3 second violation that absolutely won't get called.  Shaq was called for offensive fouls (fouled out) both his first and last years in the league.  His game didn't adjust that much in between.

  

[Goo Punch 4,275]

2 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

If I was a big man guarding Shaq, I'd plant my feen in front of the basket with my arms straight up in the air and Shaq would murder me in the paint while I got called for the foul.  Saw Bradley do exactly this--get his nose busted and get called for the foul.  Shaq wasn't going to finesse or dazzle anybody with fancy footwork.

  

Yes he was. Shaq had great footwork. You must not remember him in his prime. Also, nobody in the history of the NBA got legitimately fouled more often with no call than Shaq, so I'm not going to cry for any defenders who just tried to get run over and hoped for a foul call. 

[Mdhorn 5,949]

The game has changes so much through the years.  Any comparisons are impossible.  Thinking that guys used to play the game in high top canvas chucks tells me it wasn't an arial game.  And even still, it would be impossible to play in those things.  Interesting to see comparisons, especially in regards to height: https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Mdhorn

[Mdhorn 5,949]

8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Yes he was. Shaq had great footwork. You must not remember him in his prime. Also, nobody in the history of the NBA got legitimately fouled more often with no call than Shaq, so I'm not going to cry for any defenders who just tried to get run over and hoped for a foul call. 

I'm not crying for them--he's a physical anomaly.  Just saying he's wasn't going to Duncan, Olajuwon or Robinson his way around defenders.  He beat the f'k out of Hakeem down low and it had nothing to do with footwork.  

Edited May 17, 2020 by Mdhorn

[Trey3216 15,346]

On 5/16/2020 at 8:27 AM, Pam Cummings said:

You act like all the other guys on the floor aren't also gigantic physical monsters lol. Yeah theoretically they should all shoot great but they don't.

He is every bit as skilled as those other guys. You have Kobe ahead of him on your list but Kobe missed the playoffs in one of his prime years. That is a huge strike right there for an all time great. Especially considering the bad Cavs teams Lebron was slogging through the playoffs with during his first runs. And they were so terrible after he left, they were in the lottery for the next, what, 5 years? I mean who was his second best player on those teams, Antwan Jamison? Boobie?

 

Oh, and now that i think of it, Larry Bird might be as impressive of a player as i've ever seen. MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, and Magic might be my true top 5. With me throwing Duncan in the mix when i feel like being a Spurs homer and trolling.

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

[conVINCEd 21,469]

45 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

Don’t forget Deshawn Stevenson.  He was a crazy fucker, but he could play some D and get in somebody’s head.

[UDontKnow 10,445]

6 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

I'm not crying for them--he's a physical anomaly.  Just saying he's wasn't going to Duncan, Olajuwon or Robinson his way around defenders.  He beat the f'k out of Hakeem down low and it had nothing to do with footwork.  

Wut? 

Shaq: "If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt. These guys now are crying, 'Three seconds!' It's just funny to me.""

[Rockethorn1978 6,077]

For me MJ got better as each round of the playoffs went. Go look up his Finals averages and you'll see how when it was time to raise his game he went to a level no one else could match. Lebrun has faded in the Finals MULTIPLE times. 

 

And GTFO with Shaq beat the fuck out of Hakeem? Hahahaha were you like 5 during the 95 Finals when Hakeem beat the fuck out of Shaq? 

[Rockethorn1978 6,077]

YEAR	Opponent	G	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	ORB	DRB	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
1990-91	Lakers	5	44.0	.558	.500	.848	1.6	5.0	6.6	11.4	2.8	1.40	3.6	3.6	31.2
1991-92	Trail Blazers	6	42.3	.526	.429	.891	1.0	3.8	4.8	6.5	1.7	0.33	2.0	3.5	35.8
1992-93	Suns	6	45.7	.508	.400	.694	2.5	6.0	8.5	6.3	1.7	0.67	2.7	3.3	41.0
1995-96	Supersonics	6	42.0	.415	.316	.836	1.7	3.7	5.3	4.2	1.7	0.17	3.0	2.8	27.3
1996-97	Jazz	6	42.7	.456	.320	.764	1.5	5.5	7.0	6.0	1.2	0.83	2.2	2.3	32.3
1997-98	Jazz	6	41.7	.427	.308	.814	1.5	2.5	4.0	2.3	1.8	0.67	1.7	2.2	33.5
Finals		35	43.0	.481	.368	.806	1.8	4.4	6.0	6.0	1.8	0.66	2.4	2.9	33.6

[Rockethorn1978 6,077]

Stats speak for themselves. Lebron didn't dominate like that. 

[MrBig 5,398]

5 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

[Iceman 2,713]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:09 AM, Brothahorn said:

Gourmand is Craig Ehlo.

No way that cat is from Lubbock.

[demos 3,003]

He beat the f'k out of Hakeem down low and it had nothing to do with footwork.  

Lol. Talk about hilariously bad takes.

[gmr548 16,580]

On 5/15/2020 at 9:47 PM, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team

I think people underestimate what Jordan's athleticism would look like today. He played at 6'6", ~215-220lbs. LeBron is 6'8", ~240-250. The game has moved to sub-200lb forwards and 220lb 7-footers. Jordan would be a freight train just like LeBron in today's game.

 

[Mdhorn 5,949]

1 hour ago, demos said:

Lol. Talk about hilariously bad takes.

Summary of Victories

	Games Won	in Regular Season	in Playoffs
Hakeem Olajuwon	11	6	5
Shaquille O'Neal	17	14	3

Stats in Games Between Them

Averages
Player	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon	19.7	9.2	2.9	1.5	2.1
Shaquille O'Neal	24.0	12.1	4.0	0.8	2.2

Game Highs
Player	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon	35	15	9	5	6
Shaquille O'Neal	37	20	9	2	6

Games with better stats than the other player...
Player	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon	11 games	7 games	10 games	13 games	13 games
Shaquille O'Neal	16 games	20 games	14 games	5 games	11 games
Both had same stat	1 game	1 game	4 games	10 games	4 games

Head To Head Games Played: One by One

 

- 1992-93 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 25, 1992
1.	Rockets	94		Hakeem Olajuwon	22	13	3	1	5	5	3	41	9-22	.409	0-0	-	4-8	.500
	Magic	107		Shaquille O'Neal	12	13	2	1	3	2	3	42	6-12	.500	0-0	-	0-0	-
	Mar. 16, 1993
2.	Rockets	94		Hakeem Olajuwon	20	15	9	2	4	5	5	46	8-19	.421	0-0	-	4-5	.800
	Magic	93		Shaquille O'Neal	16	17	1	2	2	5	4	46	5-11	.455	0-0	-	6-9	.667
- 1993-94 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Jan. 10, 1994
3.	Rockets	100		Hakeem Olajuwon	26	11	5	3	5	3	3	38	9-20	.450	1-1	1.000	7-8	.875
	Magic	115		Shaquille O'Neal	28	7	4	1	1	1	5	39	13-19	.684	0-0	-	2-5	.400
	Mar. 01, 1994
4.	Rockets	97		Hakeem Olajuwon	26	7	5	1	6	2	3	37	12-20	.600	0-0	-	2-4	.500
	Magic	85		Shaquille O'Neal	19	13	2	1	2	1	2	44	8-19	.421	0-0	-	3-12	.250
- 1994-95 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 23, 1994
5.	Rockets	94		Hakeem Olajuwon	27	10	3	2	3	3	4	37	10-22	.455	0-0	-	7-7	1.000
	Magic	117		Shaquille O'Neal	30	7	2	0	0	3	5	29	13-19	.684	0-0	-	4-4	1.000
	Mar. 02, 1995
6.	Rockets	96		Hakeem Olajuwon	22	9	6	5	2	5	3	44	9-23	.391	0-0	-	4-5	.800
	Magic	107		Shaquille O'Neal	19	20	6	2	2	4	5	42	9-17	.529	0-0	-	1-3	.333
- 1995 Playoffs - NBA Finals -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Jun. 07, 1995
7.	Rockets	120		Hakeem Olajuwon	31	6	7	2	4	3	5	48	13-26	.500	0-0	-	5-7	.714
OT	Magic	118		Shaquille O'Neal	26	16	9	0	3	7	5	44	10-16	.625	0-0	-	6-9	.667
	Jun. 09, 1995
8.	Rockets	117		Hakeem Olajuwon	34	11	2	1	4	3	5	42	14-30	.467	0-0	-	6-9	.667
	Magic	106		Shaquille O'Neal	33	12	7	0	0	4	5	45	12-22	.545	0-0	-	9-14	.643
	Jun. 11, 1995
9.	Rockets	106		Hakeem Olajuwon	31	14	7	2	0	1	4	45	14-30	.467	0-0	-	3-5	.600
	Magic	103		Shaquille O'Neal	28	10	6	1	3	4	3	45	11-17	.647	0-0	-	6-11	.545
	Jun. 14, 1995
10.	Rockets	113		Hakeem Olajuwon	35	15	6	3	0	4	4	44	15-30	.500	1-1	1.000	4-5	.800
	Magic	101		Shaquille O'Neal	25	12	3	0	4	6	5	46	11-19	.579	0-0	-	3-8	.375
- 1995-96 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Dec. 25, 1995
11.	Rockets	90		Hakeem Olajuwon	30	12	6	0	1	1	4	42	12-26	.462	0-0	-	6-6	1.000
	Magic	92		Shaquille O'Neal	22	18	5	0	1	4	5	38	10-15	.667	0-0	-	2-6	.333
	Jan. 21, 1996
12.	Rockets	96		Hakeem Olajuwon	30	11	2	5	2	1	3	45	13-28	.464	0-0	-	4-6	.667
	Magic	97		Shaquille O'Neal	29	16	3	1	1	6	4	42	13-24	.542	0-0	-	3-7	.429
- 1996-97 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 12, 1996
13.	Rockets	115		Hakeem Olajuwon	31	7	2	1	4	1	4	32	12-22	.545	0-0	-	7-9	.778
2OT	Lakers	126		Shaquille O'Neal	34	15	2	1	2	5	6	42	15-24	.625	0-0	-	4-8	.500
- 1997-98 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 14, 1997
14.	Rockets	103		Hakeem Olajuwon	4	8	3	0	2	1	5	32	2-11	.182	0-0	-	0-0	-
2OT	Lakers	113		Shaquille O'Neal	24	13	8	2	3	3	3	50	8-18	.444	0-0	-	8-13	.615
	Feb. 15, 1998
15.	Rockets	90		Hakeem Olajuwon	13	11	4	0	4	1	4	38	5-14	.357	0-0	-	3-3	1.000
	Lakers	88		Shaquille O'Neal	18	13	1	0	1	5	3	37	7-14	.500	0-0	-	4-7	.571
- 1998-99 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Feb. 05, 1999
16.	Rockets	91		Hakeem Olajuwon	11	7	0	0	0	3	6	34	5-13	.385	0-0	-	1-4	.250
	Lakers	99		Shaquille O'Neal	30	14	6	2	0	6	2	41	13-21	.619	0-0	-	4-7	.571
	Feb. 28, 1999
17.	Rockets	90		Hakeem Olajuwon	22	8	2	0	0	2	6	29	11-17	.647	0-0	-	0-2	.000
	Lakers	106		Shaquille O'Neal	22	7	2	1	1	4	1	34	7-10	.700	0-0	-	8-14	.571
	Apr. 26, 1999
18.	Rockets	102		Hakeem Olajuwon	14	8	2	2	2	2	1	34	4-10	.400	0-0	-	6-7	.857
	Lakers	80		Shaquille O'Neal	19	12	4	1	1	6	2	36	9-14	.643	0-0	-	1-2	.500
- 1999 Playoffs - Western Conference First Round -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	May. 09, 1999
19.	Rockets	100		Hakeem Olajuwon	22	8	0	2	1	1	5	31	10-13	.769	0-0	-	2-3	.667
	Lakers	101		Shaquille O'Neal	27	11	4	2	4	4	4	41	11-23	.478	0-0	-	5-14	.357
	May. 11, 1999
20.	Rockets	98		Hakeem Olajuwon	8	5	1	1	0	2	4	25	3-10	.300	0-0	-	2-2	1.000
	Lakers	110		Shaquille O'Neal	28	9	7	0	5	2	4	33	12-21	.571	0-0	-	4-9	.444
	May. 13, 1999
21.	Rockets	102		Hakeem Olajuwon	5	6	0	1	1	2	5	28	2-12	.167	0-0	-	1-1	1.000
	Lakers	88		Shaquille O'Neal	26	10	2	1	4	1	2	42	9-22	.409	0-0	-	8-16	.500
	May. 15, 1999
22.	Rockets	88		Hakeem Olajuwon	18	10	1	1	1	0	4	39	8-19	.421	0-0	-	2-2	1.000
	Lakers	98		Shaquille O'Neal	37	11	3	0	3	2	2	43	14-22	.636	0-0	-	9-18	.500
- 1999-00 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 10, 1999
23.	Rockets	88		Hakeem Olajuwon	15	10	1	1	2	1	1	36	5-18	.278	0-0	-	5-7	.714
	Lakers	89		Shaquille O'Neal	6	7	1	0	1	1	1	15	3-6	.500	0-0	-	0-0	-
	Jan. 30, 2000
24.	Rockets	89		Hakeem Olajuwon	8	10	1	0	2	0	3	22	3-8	.375	0-1	.000	2-4	.500
	Lakers	83		Shaquille O'Neal	27	19	0	0	0	3	5	41	12-27	.444	0-0	-	3-8	.375
	Feb. 27, 2000
25.	Rockets	85		Hakeem Olajuwon	6	6	1	0	0	0	4	13	3-7	.429	0-0	-	0-0	-
	Lakers	101		Shaquille O'Neal	24	13	8	1	5	2	1	36	11-20	.550	0-0	-	2-6	.333
- 2000-01 Season -
Game				Player	Pts	TRb	Ast	Stl	Blk	TO	PF	Min	FG	%	3PT	%	FT	%
	Nov. 07, 2000
26.	Rockets	84		Hakeem Olajuwon	12	5	0	5	0	0	4	35	5-9	.556	0-0	-	2-2	1.000
	Lakers	74		Shaquille O'Neal	24	7	5	0	3	4	3	45	8-19	.421	0-0	-	8-14	.571
	Nov. 12, 2000
27.	Rockets	99		Hakeem Olajuwon	13	7	2	0	2	0	4	31	4-9	.444	0-0	-	5-6	.833
	Lakers	105		Shaquille O'Neal	14	5	3	0	6	5	6	32	6-14	.429	0-0	-	2-5	.400
	Dec. 21, 2000
28.	Rockets	94		Hakeem Olajuwon	16	7	0	0	1	1	5	31	6-11	.545	0-0	-	4-4	1.000
	Lakers	99		Shaquille O'Neal	25	12	6	1	1	2	4	43	9-17	.529	0-0	-	7-22	.318

Shaq had a few goto shots down low and scored mostly near the basket.  Here's his weight:

• 1987 (HS junior): 250

• 1991 (LSU College): 294

• 1992 (Rookie Season in Orlando): 301

• 1999 (Lakers): 340

• 2002 (Lakers): 380

• 2003 (Lakers) 345

• 2004 (Lakers): 370

• 2005 (Heat): 320

• 2010 (Celtics): 345

Posting Shaq's early years against an experienced Hakeem is fun I guess.  But then he packs on about a 40-60 more pounds and becomes an immovable object, a bull that does bull things. He's not going to dazzle with his shot selection and fancy footwork.   Shaq's a banger, he's going to use his body down low to absolutely move guys, including Hakeem.  Even when he uses his baby hook, he makes contact to create separation. This isn't rocket science.  

[Rockethorn1978 6,077]

So it’s ok for You to post shaq in his prime vs a end of his career Hakeem but it’s totally unfair for anyone to bring up Hakeem sweeping shaq when he was so young. Lol. Ok.

Heres a stat. 4-0 sweep. And Shaq himself said Hakeem was the best center he ever faced. Just say you gave a dumb example instead of doubling down.

[Mdhorn 5,949]

24 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

So it’s ok for You to post shaq in his prime vs a end of his career Hakeem but it’s totally unfair for anyone to bring up Hakeem sweeping shaq when he was so young. Lol. Ok.

Heres a stat. 4-0 sweep. And Shaq himself said Hakeem was the best center he ever faced. Just say you gave a dumb example instead of doubling down.

Wtf are you rambling on about?  I would have taken Hakeem over Shaq.  I enjoyed watching Hakeem's game more than Shaq.  My argument was that Shaq's game is mostly him being bigger bodied than everybody else.  He got his points bullying people down low, within a few feet of the basket.  I don't like his game--at all.  But because I mentioned him bullying Hakeem from Rockets, the mentally incontinent come blasting out of the surly webs.  He absolutely bullies Hakeem offensively.  Lets think about what he has that Hakeem doesn't--what can it be?  He's certainly not quicker, or has the shot selection, what can it be? He did well in that series and is really young.  Does it matter to you that Houston had a better team than Orlando which kind of matters?  Great, Hakeem was the best center he played--how many were there in the game--like 5?  GTFOOH.  The games listed are all of their meetings--stop cherry picking.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by Mdhorn