30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

[Post Oak 20,208]

12 minutes ago, texaslong said:

I bust out laughing when Bird and the Pacers thought they were going to beat Jordan and the Bulls in game 7, and Bird came over after the game to give MJ props. They both were laughing and Jordan says "You bitch, fuck you," and they start laughing. The greats were all good friends away from the game, but wanted to destroy each other on the court. That's what is missing from todays game. 

When MJ Magic and Larry were in the locker room before the all-star game.  Be still my heart. 

[Underdog 28,576]

Babe, Ali, MJ, ? 

Mt. Rushmore of Sports Icons. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

44 minutes ago, Iceman said:

Pippen being recognized on the 41st best player EVER in the NBA is pretty damned "due"

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/833472-nbas-50-greatest-players-remix-what-will-the-list-look-like-on-nbas-75-b-day

 

For me the quitting on his team post-MJ  and the Houston experience were 2 major blemishes on his career.  He still gets props though.

I should have kept it as "while he was playing" because he's getting a shitload more love now than he ever did when he played. History has been much kinder to him than when he was actually playing. 

And I was going to chastise you for citing Bleacher Report, and then I looked at the latest ESPN list and they have him at 21. I'm not sure that a guy who finished top 5 (and #5 at that) in MVP voting a total of one time in his career is really the 21st best player to ever play in the history of the NBA. 

[texaslong 678]

This scene cracked me up also, cause Jordan claimed he tried and tried to toughen Scott Burrell up, but that he was to nice of a guy.

 “You stay away from Scott Burrell,” Jordan tells NBC’s Ahmad Rashad as Rashad reflects on the pressure of playing in a Game 7. “You're not instructed to talk to Scott Burrell. You'll scare the shit out of him."

[Goo Punch 4,275]

36 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Babe, Ali, MJ, ? 

Mt. Rushmore of Sports Icons. 

Gretzky, Pelé (although Messi is honestly the best player who ever lived and may one day be regarded as such). But yeah, add Gretzky and Pelé to the sports icon pantheon. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Goo Punch

[tbone_ 14,110]

Tiger Woods

[conVINCEd 21,469]

Jack Nicklaus

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Woods is easily ahead of Nicklaus in terms of icon status. 

[tbone_ 14,110]

In modern times to me the holy trinity of exalted sports icons is Ali, Jordan, Tiger.

Then everyone else.

[Gourmand 7,774]

 

[TommyGufano 6,021]

Pretty damning that he puts the 13's as possibly being in his top-3 kicks. Then again I guess he wasn't always celebrated for his fashion choices

[Iceman 2,693]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I should have kept it as "while he was playing" because he's getting a shitload more love now than he ever did when he played. History has been much kinder to him than when he was actually playing. 

And I was going to chastise you for citing Bleacher Report, and then I looked at the latest ESPN list and they have him at 21. I'm not sure that a guy who finished top 5 (and #5 at that) in MVP voting a total of one time in his career is really the 21st best player to ever play in the history of the NBA. 

Yeah, I think he loses ‘value‘ or ‘points’’ in the elite lists, because he didn’t really carry a franchise. When he was ‘the man’ they came up short. My bigger point, and  your post supports it too, is that Pipp is pretty well respected for his legacy in the NBA.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Iceman

[Iceman 2,693]

2 hours ago, Underdog said:

Babe, Ali, MJ, ? 

Mt. Rushmore of Sports Icons. 

Jesse Owens, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, or Gretzky?

There are multiple layers of influence there.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Iceman

[UDontKnow 10,439]

Anyone else worried about the number of cigars Jordan smokes? Cancer of the mouth and/or jaw is a real thing, man.

[Helobious 9,450]

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Jack Nicklaus

As a millennial, I can tell you without any doubt that most of my contemporaries have never heard of Jack Nicklaus unless they’re a sports fan. 
 

Everyone’s heard of Tiger. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2,732]

What weirdly sticks in my mind about pippen was that he banked it in a lot.

Not even in the same neighborhood as Duncan.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

3 minutes ago, Helobious said:

As a millennial, I can tell you without any doubt that most of my contemporaries have never heard of Jack Nicklaus unless they’re a sports fan. 
 

Everyone’s heard of Tiger. 

Well, i was being a little contrarian, but this is Mt. GOAT, not Mt. Popular.

[demos 3,002]

Finally watching the last 2 episodes.

Fuck the jazz.

That is all.

[Aqua Buddha 14,582]

Watched every episode with the wife (no pics) who is not a basketball fan.  She thought it was a great doc and learned a lot about Michael Jordan as a person.  Our view was that we kept hearing how bad the documentary would make him look but we thought it made him more nuanced, neither good nor bad.  I think the Steve Jobs comparisons are good.  They were both the most driven people in their field and were completely single minded about their craft and didn't tolerate people who weren't.  That makes them not unlike a lot of other very successful people in business.  They're the types that you'd invest millions with but would never work for.

[Michael Knight 12,977]

7 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Pippen never really got his due even when he was playing. Jordan's star burned so bright that he couldn't help but be caught in the shadows. For his career, Pippen made three All-NBA first teams and two of them were in the two years that MJ was "retired."

Pippen's game wasn't really the type to be overly celebrated either because he wasn't a big scorer and never stuffed the stat sheet. His career numbers were 16, 5 and 6. He only had a few seasons where he eclipsed 20 ppg.  He was more of a facilitator on offense and he was just absolutely suffocating on defense. But he was maybe the best glue guy, ever. Pretty much anything you needed to get done to help you win a basketball game that didn't show up in the box score, he was fucking great at.

That said, I'm not sure he was a perennial top 5 player in the league. During that era, nobody would have taken him over Hakeem or David Robinson or Jordan or Barkley or Karl Malone. Well, maybe Karl Malone because he was such a dickhead. But Pippen wasn't considered to be better than guys like Drexler or even Dominique back then. He was never considered to be a superstar that you could build a team around. He was the greatest #2 ever, but does that make him a true top 5 player? In fact, doesn't that kind of argue that he wasn't? 

Pippen lost his claim to greatness when he wasn't with Jordan. He was the bitch who sat on the bench while Kukoc hit the winning shot and he was a whiny cunt on the Rockets and then an over the hill loser on the Blazers

[Zepol87 9,185]

2 hours ago, demos said:

Finally watching the last 2 episodes.

Fuck the jazz.

That is all.

Yea I finished it earlier today. Loved it. Salt Lake City seems like a different place 

[Michael Knight 12,977]

5 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Gretzky, Pelé (although Messi is honestly the best player who ever lived and may one day be regarded as such). But yeah, add Gretzky and Pelé to the sports icon pantheon. 

why don't you stick the best cricket player of all time up there, no one gives 2 fucks about hockey outside of russians and canadians

[Michael Knight 12,977]

also fuck karl malone

[Michael Knight 12,977]

that flu game is probably the greatest performance I've ever seen in any sport.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

that flu game is probably the greatest performance I've ever seen in any sport.

ok Kirk Bohls.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MAUFRAIS 6,619]

I remember liking when VY talked about “Jordan mode”

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2,732]

This would also have been better without the dumbass State Farm commercials

[immortal13 4,059]

7 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Gretzky, Pelé (although Messi is honestly the best player who ever lived and may one day be regarded as such). But yeah, add Gretzky and Pelé to the sports icon pantheon. 

Brady has to be on the mountain as well 

[Burt Macklin 19,020]

4 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Watched every episode with the wife (no pics) who is not a basketball fan.  She thought it was a great doc and learned a lot about Michael Jordan as a person.  Our view was that we kept hearing how bad the documentary would make him look but we thought it made him more nuanced, neither good nor bad.  I think the Steve Jobs comparisons are good.  They were both the most driven people in their field and were completely single minded about their craft and didn't tolerate people who weren't.  That makes them not unlike a lot of other very successful people in business.  They're the types that you'd invest millions with but would never work for.

MJ and his camp had final say on every single second that aired. There was no world where this doc was going to make MJ look bad. 

3 hours ago, Michael Knight said:

Pippen lost his claim to greatness when he wasn't with Jordan. He was the bitch who sat on the bench while Kukoc hit the winning shot and he was a whiny cunt on the Rockets and then an over the hill loser on the Blazers

Yeah, he was a total loser on the Blazers. It’s not like they won 59 games and made it to the WCF his first year there or anything.
 

Rockets fans are still salty bitches about Pippen. It’s hilarious to see. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

6 hours ago, demos said:

Finally watching the last 2 episodes.

Fuck the jazz.

That is all.

I forgot all about the great Adam Keefe the last 22 years until he was on the screen for a split second 

[Trey3216 15,345]

13 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

Anyone else worried about the number of cigars Jordan smokes? Cancer of the mouth and/or jaw is a real thing, man.

[Don Johnson 4,752]

13 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Well, i was being a little contrarian, but this is Mt. GOAT, not Mt. Popular.

Its not Mt. GOAT that's being discussed ITT, its Mt. Sports Icon which is essentially popular because of greatness.

And it really is MJ, Ali, Babe and then Tiger.  All the others mentioned were great, but not icons on that level.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Don Johnson

[aggie08 21,489]

On 5/17/2020 at 8:36 PM, Aqua Buddha said:

If you watched this and still think GS is the best team of all time, I don’t know what to tell you.

I love how some of you guys can watch this doc, digest that half of the games ended in a score of 83-78, and still conclusively say that arguably the most prolific offense in NBA history would have no shot.

I know, I know, it's because they played "real defense" back then. As if Iggy, Klay, and a roaming Draymond couldn't put up every bit as much resistance as Byron Russell, even without hand-checking.

Maybe the Bulls would still win, who knows. But matter-of-factly declaring them better pings of nostalgia.

Edited May 19, 2020 by aggie08

[Hate 20,106]

And saying the Warriors would win just because they averaged 118 ppg during an offensive era pings of recency bias.

[aggie08 21,489]

12 minutes ago, Hate said:

And saying the Warriors would win

Did I say that?

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

83-79 is what most end of 3 looks like in today’s NBA. I remember the days of being a stat nerd and seeing the high flying suns avg 108.Before that it was Dallas at 103. Kobe/Shaq 101. Seeing those numbers were astonishing. Taco Bell gave away food if teams scored 100.

 

 

I have no idea who I’d choose between GS and Chicago. I’d tend to lean towards GS just because they pose 2 of the greatest flame throwers ever. Pippen vs Durant would be a treat, and Rodman/green trash talk would be legendary. I don’t know If Chicago is equipped to score 110/game if Michael isn’t scoring at least 50 of those.

 

 

How would the 98 pacers do vs golden state? Or jazz? I’d say GS would beat those 2 handily and they gave the bulls all that they could handle

[Hate 20,106]

Did I say that?

No, but some have implied it.

[aggie08 21,489]

9 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

83-79 is what most end of 3 looks like in today’s NBA. I remember the days of being a stat nerd and seeing the high flying suns avg 108.Before that it was Dallas at 103. Kobe/Shaq 101. Seeing those numbers were astonishing. Taco Bell gave away food if teams scored 100.

 

 

I have no idea who I’d choose between GS and Chicago. I’d tend to lean towards GS just because they pose 2 of the greatest flame throwers ever. Pippen vs Durant would be a treat, and Rodman/green trash talk would be legendary. I don’t know If Chicago is equipped to score 110/game if Michael isn’t scoring at least 50 of those.

 

 

How would the 98 pacers do vs golden state? Or jazz? I’d say GS would beat those 2 handily and they gave the bulls all that they could handle

It's such a fun matchup all the way down the lineup. Klay wouldn't be able to do jack shit on MJ with the ball in his hands, but he'd force Jordan to chase him around the court without the ball like Reggie Miller on steroids. KD vs. Pipp is a dream duel. Like MJ, KD is too good of a scorer to be stopped by any defense/defender, but Pipp would make him work. Dray vs. Dennis in a race to see who gets ejected first. Swiss army knives quick off the bench in Iggy and Kukoc.

The only hole--and it's a big, glaring one--is at point guard. Even in '95, an aging Ron Harper was splitting time with Kerr pretty much 50/50. Neither of those guys could stay with Steph with or without the ball, neither would they force him to work on defense.

I still tend to favor the team with the best player in a closely matched series, but it would be a good one.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

I haven’t read much in this thread and I know Ron Harper isn’t a household name unless you followed the nba like most of us..but why did he get such a crappy edit job? He had his spotlight when he wanted to guard MJ instead of Ehlo... but he hardly ever talked during his bulls run. Luc Longley too. Not that I necessarily care what they have to say but when Kerr/BJ & Wennington/Perdue/Cartwright had way more airtime. Kerr was always the more popular player especially now... just found it interesting the starting PG and center were basically shunned

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

It's such a fun matchup all the way down the lineup. Klay wouldn't be able to do jack shit on MJ with the ball in his hands, but he'd force Jordan to chase him around the court without the ball like Reggie Miller on steroids. KD vs. Pipp is a dream duel. Like MJ, KD is too good of a scorer to be stopped by any defense/defender, but Pipp would make him work. Dray vs. Dennis in a race to see who gets ejected first. Swiss army knives quick off the bench in Iggy and Kukoc.
The only hole--and it's a big, glaring one--is at point guard. Even in '95, an aging Ron Harper was splitting time with Kerr pretty much 50/50. Neither of those guys could stay with Steph with or without the ball, neither would they force him to work on defense.
I still tend to favor the team with the best player in a closely matched series, but it would be a good one.

Agree. When writing my post, I thought GS has multiple guys to throw at MJ for an entire series while Chicago has Nobody for curry if MJ is on klay. MJ can’t guard the splash brothers at once.


I was never a huge fan of the GS bench and I don’t know why. Livingston /iggy were good players but on any other team would they be as effective without playing with the lead most of the time? Kerr was a sniper and Kukoc was probably the most polished out of all bench players. Bench bigs are a wash imo. Chicago has 1 guy on any given night to score 40+. GS has 3 who can get you 50.

[ChickenSandwich 9,827]

17 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

It's such a fun matchup all the way down the lineup. Klay wouldn't be able to do jack shit on MJ with the ball in his hands, but he'd force Jordan to chase him around the court without the ball like Reggie Miller on steroids. KD vs. Pipp is a dream duel. Like MJ, KD is too good of a scorer to be stopped by any defense/defender, but Pipp would make him work. Dray vs. Dennis in a race to see who gets ejected first. Swiss army knives quick off the bench in Iggy and Kukoc.

The only hole--and it's a big, glaring one--is at point guard. Even in '95, an aging Ron Harper was splitting time with Kerr pretty much 50/50. Neither of those guys could stay with Steph with or without the ball, neither would they force him to work on defense.

I still tend to favor the team with the best player in a closely matched series, but it would be a good one.

True but Curry is not Curry in the 80-90s defensive NBA. Paint would be no man’s land for him. He’d still be outstanding but probably play offensive like Reggie Miller. 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

As a Spurs fan even after five championships I'll still never get over that Western conference finals in 95.

 

Dream was unbelievable in that series.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Grade of D as in David

[TommyGufano 6,021]

23 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

True but Curry is not Curry in the 80-90s defensive NBA. Paint would be no man’s land for him. He’d still be outstanding but probably play offensive like Reggie Miller. 

I've seen a lot of Kevin Johnson highlights that make me think Steph might be able to poke his head into the lane every now and then.

 

*Maybe* Steph has as much success penetrating defenses as Mark Price did? Is this possible? Or would he actually just have to stand at half court because we're going to pretend every play in the 80s/90s was Rambis getting cleared out by McHale

[Hate 20,106]

As a Spurs fan even after five championships I'll still never get over that Western conference finals in 95.
 
Dream was unbelievable in that series.

You always remember the ones that got away...78, 79, 89, 95, 2004, 2006, 2012, and 2013 still hurt to this day.

[HoffaJimmy 316]

19 hours ago, texaslong said:

I bust out laughing when Bird and the Pacers thought they were going to beat Jordan and the Bulls in game 7, and Bird came over after the game to give MJ props. They both were laughing and Jordan says "You bitch, fuck you," and they start laughing. The greats were all good friends away from the game, but wanted to destroy each other on the court. That's what is missing from todays game. 

 

Probably my favorite part of the Doc. 

I lived in the Midwest during the 90's so I pretty much knew and followed everything about MJ and that team when I was in HS/college. But those behind the scene glimpses that this gives us is really what made it so great and obviously very few people had any knowledge of. 

The reason why I love it is that is how team sports work talking shit and showing respect. Not to play the people don't understand card again but that is exactly how you would talk with your friends. The whole Michael was a tyrant asshole, and a horrible example of how to treat other people takes annoy the shit out of me. 

He was respected by his teammates and the best players in the league. If the general public and Nancy's of the world can't handle it then tough shit. 

As for it missing in today's game, I think that it is there- It's just a different time so it's not exactly the same. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,817]

You always remember the ones that got away...78, 79, 89, 95, 2004, 2006, 2012, and 2013 still hurt to this day.

Thoughts and prayers. Especially for those 17 calendar days since 1999 that the spurs had a losing record

[Hate 20,106]

Those were dark dark days.

I know it sounds like I’m whining, but some of those were really bad kick in the junk type of losses. In 1978, we were up 3-1 in the ECF only to lose to the Bullets. In 1989, we were a horribly stupid pass by Rod Strickland from going to the WCF. In 1995, we had home court in WCF and lost. In 2004, we were .4 away from going to the WCF. In 2006, we were a stupid foul by Manu away from going to the Finals. In 2012, we had no answer for KD, Harden, and Westbrook after being up 2-0. In 2013, we were 2 missed FT’s and a rebound away from a title. Thank God for the titles they did win or I’d be emotionally dead.

[Gourmand 7,774]

As a millennial, I can tell you without any doubt that most of my contemporaries have never heard of Jack Nicklaus unless they’re a sports fan. 
 
Everyone’s heard of Tiger. 

That's just straight up ignorant and lazy brained. Does he need a drink named after him?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[SHOOTER12 8,800]

1 hour ago, Grade of D as in David said:

As a Spurs fan even after five championships I'll still never get over that Western conference finals in 95.

 

Dream was unbelievable in that series.

I've been trying to forget about that for years asshole, thanks a lot.

I think that was the maddest (or close to it) that I've ever been over the Spurs losing a series.  I was fuming for days and couldn't even be civil to my own family.

[Hate 20,106]

I've been trying to forget about that for years asshole, thanks a lot.
I think that was the maddest (or close to it) that I've ever been over the Spurs losing a series.  I was fuming for days and couldn't even be civil to my own family.

You need to see my prior post.