30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

56 minutes ago, Hate said:

He doubled down on it again last night by saying he would probably do the same thing again. It was and will remain a stain on his legacy.

Damn,  must have been out of the room when he said that. Well, you have to admire the honesty, but it's the most pussy (non violent, cheap shot) move I've ever seen from a player during a game.

[crash_davis 23470]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Damn,  must have been out of the room when he said that. Well, you have to admire the honesty, but it's the most pussy (non violent, cheap shot) move I've ever seen from a player during a game.

as always, good interview with jason hehir. you may want to listen to the entire interview but skip to 34 min mark, jason addresses the scotty thing. nothing earth shattering but good insight from the director's pov.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/5/11/21254202/the-challenges-of-making-the-last-dance-stories-players-tell-quarantine-comforts-with-jason-hehir

[aggie08 21796]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

He doubled down on it again last night by saying he would probably do the same thing again. It was and will remain a stain on his legacy.

I'm not entirely sure if Scottie knows how words work.

"It's one of those things that I wish had never happened. If I have it to do over again...I'd probably do the same thing."

wait, wut?

[HoffaJimmy 316]

Just a great watch again. 

A few things-

1. Pippen was a great player but was indeed soft. He couldn't handle being "the guy" instead of working harder when he was slighted he pouted. That is one of the massive differences between him and Jordan

2. The end of episode 7 was great and very telling. I expect you to put in the work but don't ever say I wasn't right there putting in the same effort that I asked of you. That right there is fucking leadership.

3. It's crazy that this footage was known about in the sports/basketball world but nobody ever thought the NBA or more importantly Jordan would give the green light to make something of it and agree for the footage to be used. Good podcast with Simmons and Mike Tollin (executive producer of the Last Dance) on how he finally got MJ to agree to do the doc-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN6_dpBT8gs

[MAUFRAIS 6739]

I'm not entirely sure if Scottie knows how words work.
"It's one of those things that I wish had never happened. If I have it to do over again...I'd probably do the same thing."
wait, wut?

Yeah taking it literally is an instant contradiction.

I took it as he regrets it but remembers how he felt and that he still feels that way.

Not a top 50 communicator.

[CurlyDumps 4655]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

He doubled down on it again last night by saying he would probably do the same thing again. It was and will remain a stain on his legacy.

Not only that - didn't Pippen basically say, "I wish I had done it differently, but if I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing?" 

 No Tippin' Pippen is quite the douchebag.

 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

I can just imagine Bill Cartwright busting out in tears, calling Pippen out like “I really can’t believe you actually did that man. You fucking quit on us.” Then Pippen starts crying, knowing how badly he fucked up and how he let his team down. That’s real, raw emotion from two grown ass alpha males. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, CurlyDumps said:

Not only that - didn't Pippen basically say, "I wish I had done it differently, but if I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing?" 

 No Tippin' Pippen is quite the douchebag.

 

Not sure I'd go so far as to call him a douchebag, but it was the worst thing I've ever seen on a sports floor or field.

[Not a cat 5807]

2 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

Nope--when the series ended and the Bulls were eliminated, they all went out and shook hands. 

Still got to disagree.  As onboard said quitting on your team is the ultimate bitch move, especially at that level and in an elimination game in the playoffs.  

[Not a cat 5807]

Speaking of Scottie, I do wonder what happens if he never gets that migraine and the Bulls win that game.   Detroit swept the finals so you have to think the Bulls win it if they go.  But does Jordan not start maniacally lifting weights over the off-season so it doesn't eventually turn into 4 straight?  

[Hate 20247]

A couple of things stood out to me about last night’s shows:

1. Jordan talking about how anyone not with him during his early days didn’t understand how hard it was for him and how hard it was to get to the top. They saw how hard he had to work to stay on top, but they didn’t have the appreciation of grinding to get through the Celtics and Pistons. Anyone that came to the Bulls after 91 was basically “born on 3rd base” as far as being in a team competing for championships. They didn’t have to earn it the way that he did. I think he resented anyone who didn’t work as hard as he did to stay on top.

2. In a counterpoint to that, I think he had a genuine appreciation for being part of a team and accomplishing a championship separate from him being the GOAT. He knew how good it felt to win and he genuinely wanted his teammates to know that feeling as well. I think he was genuinely happy for them. He knew that if they worked as hard as he wanted them to that the payoff would be a title and something that would last a lifetime. I’d bet that if you asked any of his former teammates if it was worth the grief Jordan could dole out, to a man they would say yes. Jordan knew that even back then.

[Prepuce of Doom 21285]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

I'm not entirely sure if Scottie knows how words work.

"It's one of those things that I wish had never happened. If I have it to do over again...I'd probably do the same thing."

wait, wut?

Yeah, like a couple of others have said, I took him to mean that he regrets having done it, and he wishes that he could undo it, but that if he was to be put in the same situation again with all of the same factors and details, that he would follow his same reasoning to arrive at that decision based on how he knows would feel at the time.

In other words, he was expressing regret about the entire thing, but that he felt like he didn't have any other option. It seems to me that it was an inarticulate effort to acknowledge his own mistakes while at the same time putting more of the blame on external factors that were outside of his control. 

More importantly, I'd just like to add that vintage Linda Cohn was looking hot last night. 

[Mdhorn 6166]

40 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

Still got to disagree.  As onboard said quitting on your team is the ultimate bitch move, especially at that level and in an elimination game in the playoffs.  

Yeah, Scottie made some real head scratchers. He wasn't a clutch shooter.  Add in those last second shots Jordan was covered and kicked it out to Paxton or Kerr for the win.  Scottie was tough but he was always the right hand guy and not the dude and let his pride get in the way.  When he said he wouldn't change anything in retrospect--well no, Chicago won that game.  Scottie did the ultimate bitch move--twice, by saying he wouldn't change anything.  It just proves he was never equipped to take that next step.   

[Mdhorn 6166]

40 minutes ago, Hate said:

 I’d bet that if you asked any of his former teammates if it was worth the grief Jordan could dole out, to a man they would say yes. Jordan knew that even back then.

They were asking for him to come back from baseball.  They all wanted him back.

[CurlyDumps 4655]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

I'm not entirely sure if Scottie knows how words work.

"It's one of those things that I wish had never happened. If I have it to do over again...I'd probably do the same thing."

wait, wut?

IOW: "Even though the play worked, and I let down my teammates in such a devastating and unprecedented way that it still leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth (including my own) 25 later, I was right and Phil was wrong." 

[Burt Macklin 19230]

Watching this doc has given me such a greater appreciation for the Bulls defense. The idea of having 3 guys like MJ, Scottie, and Rodman on the floor is just crazy. They were 3 of the best defenders in the entire league. All of them could switch 1-4 (and could switch 1-5 in today’s game), plus without much spacing in the 90’s NBA, it must’ve been brutal just trying to get to 80 points against those guys. 

[bullzak 428]

5 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

His reaction to watching Gary Payton talking about how he was wearing Jordan out was the single greatest moment of this doc by far. 

Back in the day, buddy of mine went to a dinner with Phil Jackson that was sponsored by a Wall St. firm. No press. 

Jackson is riffing on various things and talks about how even the best need to ask for help. In the Finals against Seattle Payton is just killing them at one point. At half, Jackson asks what are we going to do about the Glove? 

MJ apparently said hey man I need some help with this guy. Pippen said he's mine, shuts Payton down, and they win the title. 

[bullzak 428]

And the last 10 minutes of Episode 7 was just awesome. No apologies, no excuses. 

Dont really see that anymore. 

[Gourmand 7778]

4 hours ago, MAUFRAIS said:

 

 

 

See, this just reminds me why I never liked the guy. Great player duh, but what an asshole. 

[crash_davis 23470]

as always great interview with Jason who provides additional insight.

 

[crash_davis 23470]

UT related. Story about Lance Blanks and Detroit.

 

[HoffaJimmy 316]

1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

See, this just reminds me why I never liked the guy. Great player duh, but what an asshole. 

 

You do realize that was a commercial correct? 

I just had that conversation with my wife last night on why she couldn't understand why he was such a jerk. 

I told her it's difficult to explain if you haven't been in the locker room or played a team sport. It was motivation, lead by example, and pushing the shit out of his teammates to have the same drive he did. 

It's why every single on of his teammates would say 100% he was an asshole but it wasn't done just to be an asshole it was done to motivate them to achieve their/his goal.

 

[Gourmand 7778]

Just now, HoffaJimmy said:

 

You do realize that was a commercial correct? 

I just had that conversation with my wife last night on why she couldn't understand why he was such a jerk. 

I told her it's difficult to explain if you haven't been in the locker room or played a team sport. It was motivation, lead by example, and pushing the shit out of his teammates to have the same drive he did. 

It's why every single on of his teammates would say 100% he was an asshole but it wasn't done just to be an asshole it was done to motivate them to achieve their/his goal.

 

 Ohhhhh it's a commercial?????!!! Well that totally changes everything!!!! 

I never liked those three and a half minute Nike ads disguised as MJ hagiography. That shit was tedious then and it's even worse to see now.

He's the ultimate narcissist. 

[crash_davis 23470]

3 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

 Ohhhhh it's a commercial?????!!! Well that totally changes everything!!!! 

I never liked those three and a half minute Nike ads disguised as MJ hagiography. That shit was tedious then and it's even worse to see now.

He's the ultimate narcissist. 

I don't see any nice guys who are considered the best EVER and has 6 titles with 2 back to back 3 peats. Was he an asshole? Un-apologetically so.

But if he were truly vile, then his ex teammates probably wouldn't be close friends with him. And yet many are still. 

He did what he had to do to bring greatness to himself and his teammates. I'm sure his ex-teammates are regretting all of those championships.

BTW, he and Scotty Burrell are still close friends. What does that tell you about how much of an asshole he is?

[Gourmand 7778]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

I don't see any nice guys who are considered the best EVER and has 6 titles with 2 back to back 3 peats. Was he an asshole? Un-apologetically so.

But if he were truly vile, then his ex teammates probably wouldn't be close friends with him. And yet many are still. 

He did what he had to do to bring greatness to himself and his teammates. I'm sure his ex-teammates are regretting all of those championships.

BTW, he and Scotty Burrell are still close friends. What does that tell you about how much of an asshole he is?

Roger Federer comes to mind. 

[crash_davis 23470]

2 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Roger Federer comes to mind. 

federer has a reputation of being an asshole. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by crash_davis

[Goo Punch 4275]

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Watching this doc has given me such a greater appreciation for the Bulls defense. The idea of having 3 guys like MJ, Scottie, and Rodman on the floor is just crazy. They were 3 of the best defenders in the entire league. All of them could switch 1-4 (and could switch 1-5 in today’s game), plus without much spacing in the 90’s NBA, it must’ve been brutal just trying to get to 80 points against those guys. 

Don't forget Ron Harper, one of the best perimeter defenders ever. The 1996 Bulls to me are the gold standard for defensive teams. 

[Post Oak 20564]

8 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

 

That the best commercial Nike never made.

 

I love MJ more than ever now.

[Post Oak 20564]

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Post Oak

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

federer has a reputation of being an asshole. 

And he has no teammates....

[aggie08 21796]

1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

Roger Federer comes to mind. 

The dude that got butt hurt over how much media attention that Rafa Nadal's biceps were getting and wanted everyone to know that he puts just as much work and is every bit as strong, if not stronger, than Nadal?

The greats are all wired a little batty.  And narcissistic.  When you perceive everything as a slight against you, it stands to reason that you're going to be assholey from time to time.  Even during his playing career, I found MJ's honesty about it refreshing.  The same teammates that wanted to physically fight him one day waxed poetic about how much MJ pushed them to be the best player/team possible the next.

[Deej 77813]

6 hours ago, HoffaJimmy said:

2. The end of episode 7 was great and very telling. I expect you to put in the work but don't ever say I wasn't right there putting in the same effort that I asked of you. That right there is fucking leadership.

The clip of the team running windsprints and Jordan is out in front of everyone. 

[Iceman 2978]

6 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I can just imagine Bill Cartwright busting out in tears, calling Pippen out like “I really can’t believe you actually did that man. You fucking quit on us.” Then Pippen starts crying, knowing how badly he fucked up and how he let his team down. That’s real, raw emotion from two grown ass alpha males. 

trust in your teammates doesn't allow you to expect what Scottie actually did. Cartwright's reaction is not that unusual for having your heart cut out by someone you believed in.

I'm somewhat surprised by the number of people who said they forgot open Scottie quitting.  If you were into basketball and witnessed it, it's a moment in sports you'll never forget.

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

10 hours ago, crash_davis said:

watching it again, damn ep 7 is fucking awesome. 

insight from AR. jordan was psychotic in a way that most everyone envies. to be able to back up you shit no matter what.

 

Ahmad Rashad is 70 years old. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Just now, Iceman said:

trust in your teammates doesn't allow you to expect what Scottie actually did. Cartwright's reaction is not that unusual for having your heart cut out by someone you believed in.

I'm somewhat surprised by the number of people who said they forgot open Scottie quitting.  If you were into basketball and witnessed it, it's a moment in sports you'll never forget.

I agree. That's actually my point. I can picture this situation playing out in my head, and it's very rare that you see sports bring a grown man to "anger tears." I really can't think of another scenario, tbh. I can't even begin to imagine the scene if they had lost that game, and it resulted it them getting swept. 

[Kermit 3162]

Just now, Iceman said:

trust in your teammates doesn't allow you to expect what Scottie actually did. Cartwright's reaction is not that unusual for having your heart cut out by someone you believed in.

I'm somewhat surprised by the number of people who said they forgot open Scottie quitting.  If you were into basketball and witnessed it, it's a moment in sports you'll never forget.

I was sitting in the Gatti’s by Bergstrom Air Force Base. It’s sad that I know where I was when that happened. 

[Revolution512 1518]

I forgot Ahmad was good at football

[Iceman 2978]

21 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

I forgot Ahmad was good at football

I want to hate him for being so far up MJ's jock; but he was a world class WR too.

That relationship is peculiar, to say the least.  Then again, maybe he just always shot Michael straight.

[crash_davis 23470]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

The clip of the team running windsprints and Jordan is out in front of everyone. 

I remember seeing an interview of an ex bull saying that Jordan never lost windsprints in practice. He put in work every day.

Edited May 12, 2020 by crash_davis

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2779]

Krause looks like a smaller version of Frank Beamer.

[Goo Punch 4275]

Krause should have played The Penguin in one of the Batman movies. 

[CurlyDumps 4655]

6 hours ago, Gourmand said:

 Ohhhhh it's a commercial?????!!! Well that totally changes everything!!!! 

I never liked those three and a half minute Nike ads disguised as MJ hagiography. That shit was tedious then and it's even worse to see now.

He's the ultimate narcissist. 

3.5 min is nothing compared to a 10-hour Nike/ESPN/Jordan Brand commercial spread out over over 5 weeks. 
 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8983]

Ahmad rashad kicks ass..how is he 70?


TUESDAY!!!

[Goo Punch 4275]

 

[lateshow 1322]

18 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Roger Federer comes to mind. 

He's a star in an individual sport. What teammates was Federer trying to motivate to win championships? Apples and Oranges.

You think MJ was a tyrant? That's on you. Because you never won anything. 

[Iceman 2978]

13 hours ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

Krause looks like a smaller version of Frank Beamer.

One is almost universally loved and respected while the other is pretty much despised and ridiculed.

[HoffaJimmy 316]

11 minutes ago, lateshow said:

He's a star in an individual sport. What teammates was Federer trying to motivate to win championships? Apples and Oranges.

You think MJ was a tyrant? That's on you. Because you never won anything. 

 

I tried to explain this to my wife. If someone has never been in or around a competitive team environment they just wouldn't understand. Talking shit isn't done just to be an asshole it's done to try and motivate others around you to work harder and do their part. Does everyone have to act the way Jordan did to motivate guys? Of course not that is just how he did it. 

Others are quite leaders, some do it with more of a soft tone, etc.

It's a waste of time to try and explain it to someone who hasn't been around it as they will never understand. That said the key to that is to still have the respect from those who you are tough on, some guys can handle it and others can't.

I also hate to break it to people but there are a hell of a lot more "stars" in all sports that would be deemed assholes or jerks if they saw what went on in practice or in the locker rooms.  

 

[Gourmand 7778]

MJ sycophants are cute. There's no disputing who MJ the player is, he's clearly the GOAT. But I reject it as a false premise that being the GOAT means you by definition have to be an asshole. It's almost like y'all forgot this is an MJ production for MJ's benefit. It's entertaining to watch but it doesn't change my opinion of Michael Jordan the person. A real shitty narcissist and a profligate philanderer, I bet he's a great dad as well. His HOF acceptance speech and his career-long embrace of Nike making him into a marketing god etc. 

In his own words: "The way I go out of my life, I set examples. If it inspires you, great. If it doesn’t, then maybe I’m not the person you should be following.”

 

[Gourmand 7778]

6 minutes ago, HoffaJimmy said:

 

I tried to explain this to my wife. If someone has never been in or around a competitive team environment they just wouldn't understand. Talking shit isn't done just to be an asshole it's done to try and motivate others around you to work harder and do their part. Does everyone have to act the way Jordan did to motivate guys? Of course not that is just how he did it. 

Others are quite leaders, some do it with more of a soft tone, etc.

It's a waste of time to try and explain it to someone who hasn't been around it as they will never understand. That said the key to that is to still have the respect from those who you are tough on, some guys can handle it and others can't.

I also hate to break it to people but there are a hell of a lot more "stars" in all sports that would be deemed assholes or jerks if they saw what went on in practice or in the locker rooms.  

 

Ah this is just another variant of the dumb DID YOU PLAY????!! BUT DID YOU PLAY???!! argument that former pro athletes lob at reporters and critics. 

I guess by that logic there only four people on the planet who are qualified to criticize our President. 

[Gourmand 7778]

My view about MJ has nothing to do with his persona in practices or in games. (Well, he was kind of a little bitch about the refs considering he got every call from 1991 on). My opinion of him is entirely based on the public image he actively cultivated to his own personal benefit.  

Thank you Michael Jordan for reminding the world how much better you are than everyone else. You're still an asshole and always will be. But I appreciate the honesty and the forthright interviews.