30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

[Iceman 2639]

Gourmand:

[Hate 20103]

Did MJ punch Gourmand too?

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Did MJ punch Gourmand too?

He fucked his girlfriend(s)

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

MJ sycophants are cute. There's no disputing who MJ the player is, he's clearly the GOAT. But I reject it as a false premise that being the GOAT means you by definition have to be an asshole. It's almost like y'all forgot this is an MJ production for MJ's benefit. It's entertaining to watch but it doesn't change my opinion of Michael Jordan the person. A real shitty narcissist and a profligate philanderer, I bet he's a great dad as well. His HOF acceptance speech and his career-long embrace of Nike making him into a marketing god etc. 

In his own words: "The way I go out of my life, I set examples. If it inspires you, great. If it doesn’t, then maybe I’m not the person you should be following.”

 

So he was an asshole when they were practicing. When he was on the floor I can't recall seeing him be an asshole, and by all accounts off the floor all his teammates said he was cool.  I'm no MJ sycophant, and see his flaws, but completely recognize what he was, and we won't see anything like him in any sport for a long damn time probably.  He doesn't even try to sugar coat what he was trying to do.

If half the players in the league played, practiced, and pushed themselves, and their teammates with his determination, the recent years of the NBA wouldn't suck so hard.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13406]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:14 PM, CurlyDumps said:

Not only that - didn't Pippen basically say, "I wish I had done it differently, but if I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing?" 

 No Tippin' Pippen is quite the douchebag.

 

In today's NBA, the star player would tell the coach to shut up and then take the shot. At that point in time, Pippen probably didn't realize that he may have been able to pull that off especially with Phil Jackson. FYI, this was  a few years before Sprewell attacked his coach, Carlesimo.

At an earlier point in the series, Jordan was told to pass to Paxton who was open. Jordan acknowledged that learning to trust his teammates allowed him/them to succeed. But he obviously forced the other player to earn that trust.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 hours ago, Gourmand said:

My view about MJ has nothing to do with his persona in practices or in games. (Well, he was kind of a little bitch about the refs considering he got every call from 1991 on). My opinion of him is entirely based on the public image he actively cultivated to his own personal benefit.  

Thank you Michael Jordan for reminding the world how much better you are than everyone else. You're still an asshole and always will be. But I appreciate the honesty and the forthright interviews. 

Jeebus dude.... that's some damn fine hate you got there. What image did he cultivate ?  He played basketball, he didn't do social causes, he didn't get multiple women pregnant, do drugs, get arrested. He pretty much lived a model life as a singly driven person in a world that's full of temptations and land mines.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Onboard 2.0

[Trey3216 15325]

22 hours ago, Gourmand said:

See, this just reminds me why I never liked the guy. Great player duh, but what an asshole. 

That commercial is one of the reasons I absolutely love the guy 

[Trey3216 15325]

20 hours ago, crash_davis said:

federer has a reputation of being an asshole. 

Yep.  2 of Federer’s only real friends: Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. 

[CurlyDumps 4439]

2 hours ago, Gourmand said:

 I bet he's a great dad as well.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[Aqua Buddha 14501]

23 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Watching this doc has given me such a greater appreciation for the Bulls defense. The idea of having 3 guys like MJ, Scottie, and Rodman on the floor is just crazy. They were 3 of the best defenders in the entire league. All of them could switch 1-4 (and could switch 1-5 in today’s game), plus without much spacing in the 90’s NBA, it must’ve been brutal just trying to get to 80 points against those guys. 

This is why they're the greatest team of all time in both eras.  Don't forget Horace Grant, who was also very good.  Long, athletic and could guard 2-3 positions.  Same with Ron Harper.  They had a traditional center because of that era but Luc Longley could move and was HUGE.

[Not a cat 5615]

2 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Ah this is just another variant of the dumb DID YOU PLAY????!! BUT DID YOU PLAY???!! argument that former pro athletes lob at reporters and critics. 

I guess by that logic there only four people on the planet who are qualified to criticize our President. 

Yes, the number of living ex-presidents is roughly comparable to the number that have played a team sport and had to rely on teammates to reach a goal.

I never played beyond high school and I get it.  Winning teams hold each other accountable. 

[lateshow 1304]

38 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Jeebus dude.... that's some damn fine hate you got there. What image did he cultivate ?  He played basketball, he didn't do social causes, he didn't get multiple women pregnant, do drugs, get arrested. He pretty much lived a model life as a singly driven person in a world that's full of temptations and and mines.

He said mean stuff to Scott Burrell. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2723]

And Burrell brushed it all off.

[bullzak 411]

So MJ is a big meanie to his teammates in the name of excellence. 

Heard the same shit about Troy Aikman from a coach who was with the Cowboys then. 

If that's the price of greatness, lets have more of it. The world is plenty full of little bitches. Its why people are paying so much attention to this series. Its a reminder that greatness is out there but it usually comes at a price. 

[Iceman 2639]

13 minutes ago, bullzak said:

So MJ is a big meanie to his teammates in the name of excellence. 

Heard the same shit about Troy Aikman from a coach who was with the Cowboys then. 

If that's the price of greatness, lets have more of it. The world is plenty full of little bitches. Its why people are paying so much attention to this series. Its a reminder that greatness is out there but it usually comes at a price. 

I've been thinking of Troy's accusations from teammates of being to hard on their asses during this discussion.

Then there was this Michael Irvin dude who was notoriously a motherfucker when it came to workouts.  He kinda did OK on the field when it counted.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Iceman

[Hate 20103]

It’s different from team to team as far as who is going to be the “jerk”. Troy had Jimmy for the first few years to get in players’ faces so he didn’t have to. He could be the good cop to JImmy’s bad cop. That changed when Switzerl was brought in and tried to be buddies with all of the players. Someone had to be the asshole and it was Troy. Same thing with Tim Duncan and Pop. Tim always was there to put his arm around a teammate and bring them back in the fold after Pop had unleashed on them. In Chicago, Jordan’s role was to be the bad cop apparently. I don’t see Phil really getting on players that much and challenging them the way that Jordan felt they needed to be challenged. Maya be he did it more frequently than it’s led on, but Jackson seemed to try to persuade through reason than by brute force.

[Gourmand 7774]

I'm done with this because it's pointless and it's an opinion I've had about MJ since the early mid 90's, but I find it funny that so many of his defenders get butthurt about this commonly held perspective towards His Airrogance. There are plenty of fans, media, and basketball insiders who don't really like him. He's still the GOAT, and he's still a billiionaire dickhead who's pulled tons of hot ass. His life is certainly better than mine, but whatever. I never like the guy for the same reasons that I disliked Lance Armstrong back when it was damn near sacrilegious to voice that opinion around Austin. Commercials like that one linked earlier in the thread always rubbed me the wrong way. You're allowed to disagree. 

 

[Rockethorn1978 6061]

 We have WAY more pussies walking around than anyone close to "that big asshole" MJ. If you were to make a list of the greatest in each individual category I bet you will find the "best" is a huge self consumed overly driven asshole type and definitely not the whiny, he hurt my feelings pussies we all have to listen to in society the majority of the time.

Also, I love that MJ didn't want to be a social justice warrior and just played ball and was great at it. I don't want to hear from Lebrun and celebrities about I should live my life. Just STFU. You memorize lines for a movie or you play sports? That doesn't mean I need to hear from you about life. and your opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anyone else because you have abilities to memorize and act.

Good for MJ saying "Nah fuck all that, here's some money though"

[Rockethorn1978 6061]

1 minute ago, Gourmand said:

I'm done with this because it's pointless and it's an opinion I've had about MJ since the early mid 90's, but I find it funny that so many of his defenders get butthurt about this commonly held perspective towards His Airrogance. There are plenty of fans, media, and basketball insiders who don't really like him. He's still the GOAT, and he's still a billiionaire dickhead who's pulled tons of hot ass. His life is certainly better than mine, but whatever. I never like the guy for the same reasons that I disliked Lance Armstrong back when it was damn near sacrilegious to voice that opinion around Austin. Commercials like that one linked earlier in the thread always rubbed me the wrong way. You're allowed to disagree. 

 

Name one billionaire that isn't a huge dickwad?

[Gourmand 7774]

John Paul DeJoria

[Rockethorn1978 6061]

Oh yea! Name another one!

[HoffaJimmy 316]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So he was an asshole when they were practicing. When he was on the floor I can't recall seeing him be an asshole, and by all accounts off the floor all his teammates said he was cool.  I'm no MJ sycophant, and see his flaws, but completely recognize what he was, and we won't see anything like him in any sport for a long damn time probably.  He doesn't even try to sugar coat what he was trying to do.

If half the players in the league played, practiced, and pushed themselves, and their teammates with his determination, the recent years of the NBA wouldn't suck so hard.

 

Forget the NBA. If anybody in any line of work had the same work ethic as he did they would no doubt be successful in said field. That takes time, a shit ton of work and dedication and lets face it the greats are those that understand that and put in said time and work. 

The fact that someone agrees he was the greatest ever but has a problem with talking a little shit is comical. 

 

[Underdog 28443]

"Way to go, Craig"

[Iceman 2639]

3 minutes ago, Underdog said:

"Way to go, Craig"

That was funny too, just knowing how respected he was and would come to be later in life... and his peers are giving him shit.  Underrated moment in the series.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Iceman

[Guest Lobo]

2 hours ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Oh yea! Name another one!

David Booth and Robert Smith, to go along with DeJoria.  Basically every Austin billionaire not named Michael Dell is not a complete asshole.  

And yes, Jordan was and is an asshole.  i think most of his fans would agree---we loved watching him play growing up (particularly those of us in Chicago area).  He was simply the best.  We found out as we got a little older and he got a little more public, that he was an asshole.  Then he retired on top.  Now we find out all this other shit...and who really cares?  We shouldn't pry too deeply into the lives/personas of childhood athletic idols for the same reason we don't wear jerseys in public.  We're older now, move the fuck on.  Guy's a dick, but a championship caliber asshole the world will probably never see again.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by Lobo

[SHOOTER12 8787]

On 5/3/2020 at 11:51 PM, ChiTownDoc said:

It only added to the illusion.  He was pathological in his desire to win and that massive chip on his shoulder never left - it's the only reason he was able to win like he did.  Winning makes people soft.  Not that MF.  He will go to the grave feeling slighted.  Even as the undisputed GOAT. 

Curious though, do you think that pathological desire, and huge chip kept him from enjoying his success and accomplishments as much as he could have?

[SHOOTER12 8787]

On 5/4/2020 at 10:13 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep this isn't some Pete Rose type situation.

Dang and I thought he spent all his time banging fitlump and playing guitar.

[ChiTownDoc 21097]

3 minutes ago, SHOOTER12 said:

Curious though, do you think that pathological desire, and huge chip kept him from enjoying his success and accomplishments as much as he could have?

For sure.  Kind of like Steve Jobs, if you read a little about him.  No doubt in my mind...that type of competitive nature literally torments you and those around you. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

For sure.  Kind of like Steve Jobs, if you read a little about him.  No doubt in my mind...that type of competitive nature literally torments you and those around you. 

Jobs appeared to always be on the job when it came to being a dick.

[SHOOTER12 8787]

19 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

For sure.  Kind of like Steve Jobs, if you read a little about him.  No doubt in my mind...that type of competitive nature literally torments you and those around you. 

I agree.  His drive to win and succeed seemed to push him to the point of angered determination, which I don't think he would have gone as far without.

[Pam Cummings 9560]

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Pam Cummings

[Guest Lobo]

It's not terribly fair to say "Jordan didn't win shit until Pippen/Phil."  He got his team to the Eastern Conference Finals at the age of 25.  And that was back when the EC was actually stacked, that was not easy to do in just his fourth full season.  Scottie Pippen is with Jordan for three years before they went on to win a title, so he wasn't the only factor.  It wasn't until Jackson's second year with the team that they win, but yes---he was the missing ingredient.  But it's not like Jordan wandered in the forest for a decade trying to find the right chemistry.  He gets his team through a loaded EC and onto the finals in his fourth full year.  Pippen needs years of development before he's ready to help carry the team.  And the first three-peat is almost entirely the exact same supporting cast as Jordan has in the three seasons prior to the first three-peat.  I think Jackson was the key factor, but to say MJ was shit without Pippen and a better overall team is woefully misleading.  

Now the second three-peat team was a completely different animal.  Aside from Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson; it's a totally new and better supporting cast.  That's why those were arguably the most dominant teams in NBA history.  45-13 in the playoffs.  You're right, that kind of filthy domination is not just Jordan, that's an all-around beatdown by an all-around team.  

Edited May 13, 2020 by Lobo

[tbone_ 14020]

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

That’s because it’s a team sport bruh

[Goo Punch 4275]

2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

wow, what a black mark on MJ's career! i mean, all of the other NBA titles were won by solo efforts from single players with shitty coaches, yeah?

 

 

 

 

[Revolution512 1480]

11 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Ah this is just another variant of the dumb DID YOU PLAY????!! BUT DID YOU PLAY???!! argument that former pro athletes lob at reporters and critics. 

I guess by that logic there only four people on the planet who are qualified to criticize our President. 

You sound soft and that’s a terrible comparison

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

Name one billionaire that isn't a huge dickwad?

Matt Maloney

[Deej 76524]

5 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

Settle down, LeBron. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

Please show us on the doll where MJ touched you. Pretty much to a man they all agree he was the reason why they succeeded.  Just how many participation trophies did you win growing up ??

Of course he didn't win till he had a better supporting cast. PRO TIP: It's a team sport.  Oh, and you could say none of them won shit till they had him for a team mate.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Onboard 2.0

[Pam Cummings 9560]

I see the propaganda is working. The same people who love MJ for being a prick are the ones who vilify Krause for acting the same.

[Trey3216 15325]

17 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I see the propaganda is working. The same people who love MJ for being a prick are the ones who vilify Krause for acting the same.

I see the Midol is not 

[Pam Cummings 9560]

3 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

I see the Midol is not 

Sorry, i have no respect for someone who can't give other players their due. Laughing at Gary Payton like he was some scrub was some garbage, tbh.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

Sorry, i have no respect for someone who can't give other players their due. Laughing at Gary Payton like he was some scrub was some garbage, tbh.

You as usual are wrong. Treated him like a scrub ?  No he just laughed that Payton thought he'd figured out how to beat MJ once and for all. I think he comes off as arrogant at times as well, but when you can back up the alleged arrogance with performance I give the respect due.

 

[Trey3216 15325]

14 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

Sorry, i have no respect for someone who can't give other players their due. Laughing at Gary Payton like he was some scrub was some garbage, tbh.

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jordan-lol-laughing-laugh-whew-gif-17166398

[Pam Cummings 9560]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You as usual are wrong. Treated him like a scrub ?  No he just laughed that Payton thought he'd figured out how to beat MJ once and for all. I think he comes off as arrogant at times as well, but when you can back up the alleged arrogance with performance I give the respect due.

 

He laughed at the idea that GP could guard him, even though he performed measurably worse after GP started guarding him. Laughed it off as if the idea were absurd. But he knew.

 

There's also the thing with the Pistons. Now i know Isiah is also a huge prick, but imagine watching the guy who's ass you just kicked 2 years in a row saying you are not legitimate champions. I wouldn't wanna shake his hand either, though i would have, because that's just what you do.

 

[HornOnTheBayou 8879]

12 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah you can prop up the "his desire to win was so great that it made him be a completely awful being to everyone around him and it made them a better basketball player" narrative all you want. And i'm sure those guys were very motivated to not disappoint MJ. The fact of the matter is MJ didn't win shit until he had Pippen/Phil/a better overall team. 

You're exactly right. Jordan is such a scrub. That guy couldn't even drag a shitty team to the title in the first four years he was in the league. What a loser!

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

28 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

He laughed at the idea that GP could guard him, even though he performed measurably worse after GP started guarding him. Laughed it off as if the idea were absurd. But he knew.

 

There's also the thing with the Pistons. Now i know Isiah is also a huge prick, but imagine watching the guy who's ass you just kicked 2 years in a row saying you are not legitimate champions. I wouldn't wanna shake his hand either, though i would have, because that's just what you do.

 

What it appeared he was laughing at was Payton saying he'd figured out how to guard him, and could then shut him down. Saying MJ. wasn't what he once was, had lost a step, could be isolated and shut down.

He did it one game.  It's funny only Payton had figured out how to stop MJ....  I laughed.

[Pimphand 5592]

20 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

You're exactly right. Jordan is such a scrub. That guy couldn't even drag a shitty team to the title in the first four years he was in the league. What a loser!

His first 6 years

[Guest Lobo]

It was Jordan's 7th season, but really his 6th full season (he started a whopping 7 games in his second year with a serious injury) that his team wins a ring.  My point earlier was that he had made the Eastern Conference Finals by just his 4th full season, and that's when the EC was absolutely stacked and extremely difficult to get through.  

By comparison, and this is not a great metric, but it was brought up a lot earlier in the thread...LeBron doesn't get a ring until his 9th year.  Durant in his 10th season.  Shaq in his 8th season.  Jordan spends 4 ugly years with the Bulls when he's starting out.  1 of those years, he's basically out the whole season.  Yeah, one year they make the Semis in a tough league but are destroyed by the Pistons 4-1 in a series that was never competitive for a moment.  But again, in his just his 4th full season he's in the conference finals, and 6th full season, he's on his way to what could have been 7-8 rings in 8 years.  I get the asshole talk, but I don't get the "Jordan wasn't anything until..."  There really wasn't a Jordan "before/until..."  Just a guy who won some dunk contests and honed his all-around game.  Remember the EC in the late 80's/early 90's was like a more stacked version of the WC of the last decade+.  Just as the EC has a token 1-2 great teams each season nowadays, the WC was the Lakers (who admittedly were great, winning 9 conference titles in 12 years during that era) and a bunch of crap.  Jordan was busy slugging it out in a much deeper league with incredibly different defenses.  

I look back on his era fondly and can't understand the need to dissect his persona then or watch the NBA now.  I can't tell what a bigger waste of time is NFL Fantasy League or actual NBA games.    

[Pam Cummings 9560]

Tim Duncan won the championship his second year if that's how we're moving the goalposts to measure greatness now.

[Underdog 28443]

JFC, someone help Pam back into the kitchen.