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30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

Vic Mackey

By Vic Mackey
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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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Loved the show!  

I think debates on great teams and players is fun but obviously there is just too much difference between eras to really compare.

I think the 70 win Bulls team would handle the 73 win GS team fairly handily.  That Bulls team was much more athletic than they get credit for.  While Rodman and Pippen were not elite shooters/scorers they actually were elite finishers on the break.  With the way GS played, the Bulls would have clamped them down on defense and would have crushed them in a fast paced game.  

However, I think GS might have the edge in the Durant years.  Durant is just so good.  Un-guardable, elite shooter as well as an elite finisher.  

As for Lebron, Kobe etc, I think they are both top 10 all time but not as good as MJ.  Discounting the short season after baseball, MJ essentially went 8 years without losing the last game of the season.  Truly mind boggling.  6 finals, 6 rings, 6 MVPs in Finals.  

And maybe the most amazing stat that will likely never be equaled- 4 times MJ was scoring leader, league mvp, finals mvp, and 1st team all defense.  4 times.  The rest of the NBA combined-0.  Paring that down further, winning a scoring title and being 1st team defense in the same season has happened 12 times.  Once by Jerry West, twice by Kobe and 9 times by MJ.

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sheeeit
sheeeit

Loved it too.  A few things. Gambling/Murder- His dad's murder had nothing at all to do with gambling/mafia etc.  It was just random bad luck.  The killers are in prison.  They would have cut a d

Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

The thing about Isiah that always comes across is how disingenuous he is. That Bird thing... oh, that was sarcasm. The no hand shaking thing... oh, the Celtics did that to them. Bullshit. Nobody cares

TexasMan
TexasMan

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bullzak

bullzak 413

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Love GS and how the NBA has evolved. Love watching skilled players dominate. 

But I still have the Bulls. 

Their era was ruthlessly more physical and they changed to meet that challenge. Led the league in defensive efficiency for most of the run. 

Only had two playoff series even go to 7 games. 

Beat SEVEN 60 win teams in the playoffs. You're talking teams that stayed together and got better every year too. 

Those cats knew how to get in gear and close it out. 

In today game where you cant breathe on anybody what the hell do you do with MJ? Seriously the dude would average 50 ppg and wouldn't even be breathing hard. 

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Helobious

Helobious 9456

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4 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

 

Wow. I had no idea. And I thought the pizza story was the biggest fudged fact in the commercial. Pretty scummy of MJ to protect his father’s memory by peddling this “great dad/great man” narrative. At the very least he could have just erased him from the story like he did to his sister and own family. Feel like I need a shower now.

Pretty bold of you to just wholeheartedly accept the sister’s allegation like that. 

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CurlyDumps

CurlyDumps 4466

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3 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Pretty bold of you to just wholeheartedly accept the sister’s allegation like that. 

Bold? I'd call it common sense. Sexual abuse is exponentially more common than women making up rape and incest allegations against their fathers. 

I found an excerpt from Ronald Lazenby's Jordan biography posted on reddit. James Jordan comes off as manipulative, abusive, and controlling - common traits of an abuser.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/gecjdh/one_important_element_to_michael_jordans_story/

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MAUFRAIS

MAUFRAIS 6615

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Wright Thompson on MJ and growing up in Carolina.  It's not my favorite WT piece ever but it's pretty damn good. It traces the Jordan family back generations on practically the same land to his ancestor John Jordan who was born a slave.
You should read everything Thompson writes.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29180890/michael-jordan-history-flight
 


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HoffaJimmy

HoffaJimmy 316

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1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Other than Houston bastardizing the analytical approach, what teams are doing that? There's more movement and passing in the NBA then there's ever been. There's just as many points in the paint. 

I agree, the league has gone a little too 3-crazy, but only at the expense of the mid-range shot, not motion or passing. Do you really miss the baseline 18-footer that much?

 

 

A little 3 crazy? in a few years half the shots taken are going to be 3's at this rate. Hell if you take out transition layups/dunks I bet it's already close to 50%. 

Do I miss the 18ft baseline jumper? Not particularity but I do think the 3 has taken away the flow of the NBA. 

 

2020-  3's attempts per game- 34, FG attempts per game- 89, 38% of shots were 3's.

1998- 3's attempts per game- 12.7, FG attempts per game- 80, 15% of shots were 3's  

1993- 3's attempts per game- 9, FG attempts per game- 86, 10.5% of shots were 3's

 

 

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ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21139

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9 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yeah, This is why I’m usually out on documentaries in general. It’s so easy to make it seem like the doc paints the full picture, when in fact, the creators can skip over critical details.

Making a Murderer was the same way. all these people talk like they know the guy was innocent and have no clue he’d been caught burning cats alive as a teenager and there was a ton of other info corroborating his guilt. 
 

Anyways, I watched the Last Dance for pure entertainment during a time without sports, but I never expected a doc that required MJ’s full sign off on every single thing included in the doc to be even close to an accurate depiction of everything that happened in his career.
 

It was really more like MJ’s memoir than a documentary. 

The build up with all storylines, including MJ allowing it to happen in the first place, really led me to believe that's exactly what we were getting is an MJ-centric documentary.  I think the funny thing is even in the aftermath a lot of articles are out there about how LeBron, KD etc need to follow this blue print when making their own documentaries.  Control the narrative...

I do feel bad for the other Bulls because the younger generation may not understand their value but anyone around back then definitely is not thinking any less of Pip and crew after this was out.  None of them were painted as dunces who were magically transformed by the God MJ.  In fact, I feel even worse for Pippen, it's criminal how underpaid he was.  And anyone who has followed MJ for a while knows he's pathological in needing reassurance that he's the best on the best etc etc etc.  That's just him, it's literally his entire psyche and he can't help it.  Did anyone expect something different?  I doubt his teammates did.  He's the (nearly) undisputed GOAT and he cried like a petty bitch during his HOF speech, still airing his grievances about whatever slights he perceived - most of them just in his head. 

Anyways, I loved it. No shocker there...

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staboner

staboner 4969

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11 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Other than Houston bastardizing the analytical approach, what teams are doing that? There's more movement and passing in the NBA then there's ever been. There's just as many points in the paint. 

I agree, the league has gone a little too 3-crazy, but only at the expense of the mid-range shot, not motion or passing. Do you really miss the baseline 18-footer that much?

 

houston is indeed terrible to watch now. they are the baylor of the NBA. can win lots of games and then tend to shit the bed in crunch time when other keys to victory get tested - mental toughness, defense, taking a high percentage shot, working the clock, etc. 

i think its painfully clear you move the 3 pt line back. the higher rate of making it + analytics - is slowly erasing the showcasing of other skills from the game IMO. there are many skills and potential innovations not happening to get those 10 to 15 ft jumpshots. IMO the proper game is balanced with team's utilizing different players/talents/schemes to win. thats why I think the 80's and 90s were so popular. you had the age of the big men + the then rockets breaking in new records for 3s per game. felt like teams had many different characters and skills. 

don't get me wrong, i agree on passing in your comment. best passing ever. and of course the general talent set and how so many players are multi-faceted is a big positive. that much you can see. but the game isn't nearly as interesting, at least not to me. those last two sentences don't really make sense back to back, but somehow that is where you we are now with the modern NBA IMO. 

you have leveled up for many of the skills - yet skills that truly differentiate players are limited - and the games aren't that interesting. 

(didn't watch the documentary. never liked MJ even though I love that timeframe of the NBA no doubt. Was a dream fan)

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aggie08

aggie08 21481

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8 hours ago, staboner said:

don't get me wrong, i agree on passing in your comment. best passing ever. and of course the general talent set and how so many players are multi-faceted is a big positive. that much you can see. but the game isn't nearly as interesting, at least not to me. those last two sentences don't really make sense back to back, but somehow that is where you we are now with the modern NBA IMO.

No, I totally get it. I grew up on Bulls/Knicks, and there are plenty of things that I miss from that era that I can't quite put my finger on. I just cringe when people call today's brand of basketball unwatchable or "just a bunch of dudes are standing around jacking 3's" when the game has never been more free-flowing, highly skilled, and athletic. But saying that the league is aesthetically pleasing AND can also be a little boring and homogenized at times is not mutually exclusive. The NBA could probably use a few more John Starks.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18547

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23 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Other than Houston bastardizing the analytical approach, what teams are doing that? There's more movement and passing in the NBA then there's ever been. There's just as many points in the paint. 

I agree, the league has gone a little too 3-crazy, but only at the expense of the mid-range shot, not motion or passing. Do you really miss the baseline 18-footer that much?

 

While I don't miss the mid-range game per se, I think that you don't see guys attempt and make as many difficult shots as you used to. And most of those shots were in the mid-range. Nobody takes a spinning, double clutch three pointer. The guys today are much more skilled shooters, there's no doubt. But there just doesn't seem to be as much creativity any more.

Also, I do miss post play. Watching MJ operate out of the post and drilling a turnaround in the Last Dance felt refreshing, especially for something that is 20+ years old. I miss that part of the game, for sure.

 

15 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

In fact, I feel even worse for Pippen, it's criminal how underpaid he was. 

By the Bulls, yes. He still went on to make around $80 million after leaving Chicago which was after he turned 33. He was just as overpaid in the latter part of his career as he was underpaid in his prime.

5 hours ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Coming soon.... Transition 3's.

Yeah, it's already here. I couldn't believe it the first time I saw a 3 on 2 fast break and one of the guys on the wing fanned out to the three point line. I'm sure there's some analytics guy out there saying it is the right play to make, but it goes against all of my sensibilities.

 

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HoffaJimmy

HoffaJimmy 316

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2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

 

Yeah, it's already here. I couldn't believe it the first time I saw a 3 on 2 fast break and one of the guys on the wing fanned out to the three point line. I'm sure there's some analytics guy out there saying it is the right play to make, but it goes against all of my sensibilities.

 

 

My other favorite knock is how everyone is so much better at shooting 3's now and back in the 90's the reason why nobody shot them is none of the players had the range. 

3Pt %

2020- 35.7% 

1998- 34.6%

1992- 33.6% 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15343

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

While I don't miss the mid-range game per se, I think that you don't see guys attempt and make as many difficult shots as you used to. And most of those shots were in the mid-range. Nobody takes a spinning, double clutch three pointer. The guys today are much more skilled shooters, there's no doubt. But there just doesn't seem to be as much creativity any more.

Also, I do miss post play. Watching MJ operate out of the post and drilling a turnaround in the Last Dance felt refreshing, especially for something that is 20+ years old. I miss that part of the game, for sure.

 

By the Bulls, yes. He still went on to make around $80 million after leaving Chicago which was after he turned 33. He was just as overpaid in the latter part of his career as he was underpaid in his prime.

Yeah, it's already here. I couldn't believe it the first time I saw a 3 on 2 fast break and one of the guys on the wing fanned out to the three point line. I'm sure there's some analytics guy out there saying it is the right play to make, but it goes against all of my sensibilities.

 

Watching players like MJ Dirk, and Timmy annihilate other teams shooting the 12-18 ft shot is one of my absolute joys watching basketball.  

Edited by Trey3216
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dingleberryswitzer

dingleberryswitzer 2724

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2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Yeah, it's already here. I couldn't believe it the first time I saw a 3 on 2 fast break and one of the guys on the wing fanned out to the three point line. I'm sure there's some analytics guy out there saying it is the right play to make, but it goes against all of my sensibilities.

True, I guess I was imagining a dude gets a steal or somehow has an unimpeded route to the rim, but he stops short to launch a 3 instead of taking the guaranteed dunk. 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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1 hour ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Chicken or egg?  Did they not take threes because they sucked at them, or did they suck at them because they didn't practice them because they weren't emphasized as much?  

it's the latter. there wasn't even a three point line in college when MJ won the title. if the three had been a more normalized part of the game then more guys would have been shooting more threes, and at a higher percentage as well. 

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Helobious

Helobious 9456

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54 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Sam Smith (journalist, not shitty singer) calling out Jordan on the documentary.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2892998-sam-smith-says-michael-jordan-made-uplied-about-things-in-the-last-dance.amp.html

 

Smith came across as maybe the most unlikeable guy in the whole doc. I hate the “talking through a smile” way he speaks. Such a punchable face. 

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Kermit

Kermit 3156

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55 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Smith came across as maybe the most unlikeable guy in the whole doc. I hate the “talking through a smile” way he speaks. Such a punchable face. 

Considering he wrote the quintessential book on Jordan that laid bare all his faults, I’m surprised he was involved with the thing at all.

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UDontKnow

UDontKnow 10439

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3 hours ago, Helobious said:

Smith came across as maybe the most unlikeable guy in the whole doc. I hate the “talking through a smile” way he speaks. Such a punchable face. 

No way. Krause, even though he was just the fall guy, took that title. Being short, fat, and thinking you're more important than you really are makes you the most unlikable.

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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19184

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On 5/21/2020 at 12:57 PM, sheeeit said:

I think the 70 win Bulls team would handle the 73 win GS team fairly handily.

I didn't realize there was ever a debate about this.  My son tried to say the GS team was the best ever and I told him to use today's technology to look up peak Bulls (youtube) and STFU.  He STFU.

Quote

However, I think GS might have the edge in the Durant years.  Durant is just so good.  Un-guardable, elite shooter as well as an elite finisher.  

Rodman / Pippen switch could shut down anyone.  Any One.  Or at least get in their head enough to fuck 'em up.  Bulls would still win that series in 5 or 6 if Jordan got tanked.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89618

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Said this on the Netflix thread - was a Rockets fan, really didn't have much interest in seeing this when it originally aired, but it's good and very polished.  Doesn't change my opinion on the Bulls, and doesn't shed a lot of new light for me - I religiously followed the Rockets in the late 80s into the late 90s, so I was aware of a lot of stuff.  But well-done.

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troph

troph 24781

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Just finished this and even though I was a Barkley fan back then, my god Jordan was just astounding. I am very happy I got to grow up in that era of the NBA. I never watch now. 

I’m on episode 6 I think, but I agree Bird-Magic-Michael was the golden era of NBA basketball. It was the best sport out there. Even NCAA had a hard time keeping my attention with these teams. Of course around the same time we had some of the all time great NCAA tourney games like UK-Duke in the regional finals. I think maybe the evolution of the game with a balance between the speed and athleticism and the bang it out down low, 3-point shot, and fast breaks versus the isolation of the big guys in the paint gave the game a lot more variation. To be honest the current game isn’t fun to watch like the late 80s, early 90s. At least for me.
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troph

troph 24781

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Just finished. Man the Bulls were the most clutch team I’ve ever witnessed. Just utter domination when the seconds mattered. MJs smile and laughter after winning juxtaposed to his intensity actually shows how hard it has to be him. Capable of such joy but rarely there. Kinda feel for him. His comments about Zen and being present which sound like he took that on from his coach are dead on though. We can change the past, the future isn’t here yet, being present is it. One commentator said that what made MJ stand out was his ability to be in the moment fully like no one else. Athletic sure but a lot of guys are comparable but they don’t have his mental aspects. Crazy to hear him say yeah he wanted to try for 7 but he wasn’t interested in rebuilding. He felt like he was at the top of his game. Thought he was better than when he had more energy because he was fully using his mind to play the game. That last 20 minutes was beautiful. God I loved growing up watching MJ.

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