Tackling

[alphahorn 1637]

4 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

Sark said it wasn't the scheme, it was guys trying to make a play and not staying in the scheme

I love Sark. He's a great leader that will never throw his assistants under the bus

[hookem48 4631]

Just now, alphahorn said:

I love Sark. He's a great leader that will never throw his assistants under the bus

so he throws his players under the bus instead?  lol

[Surly Bevo 24696]

If he had thrown more players under Williams and Brooks we might have gotten lucky and tripped em.

[bullet 1596]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:05 PM, F250 said:

Tackling has changed a lot over the last ten years. Nobody is learning to tackle like the 80's, 90's, or 2000's anymore. Hitting drills have pretty much gone out the door too. Football has changed since the CTE issue became public. It has nothing to do with kids being softer or anything like that. The game is in the process of evolving and not everyone has figured out how to address tackling in this new era.

As @jimmyjazz pointed out, everyone is recruiting from the same talent pool but only a few are excelling defensively. This isn't a talent pool problem it's a coaching problem.

 

Alabama missed a bunch of tackles vs. A&M.  Georgia tackles well.  Not so sure anyone else is this year.  Some are worse than others.

[bullet 1596]

22 hours ago, RoyalBevo21 said:

We currently have the 109th ranked rush defense. As a lot of you have pointed out, stopping the run is all about getting hats to the ball and getting off of blocks early. I hate these damn coaches that just fall in love with window dressing. I'll never be convinced otherwise that if PK just threw out every defensive alignment outside of "Base, 3rd & Long, and Goal line" packages and just focused essentially 90% of the defensive practice on fundamentals such as proper tackling, angle of pursuit, and getting off of blocks. This defense would improve from 109th to at least some where in the 60's (which would've been good enough to win Saturday)

Coaches in the modern era seem to lack awareness. It's all about forcing what they want to run vs what to run with what you have. Adjust and set up the guys you have to be successful, don't try and run a system that needs Georgia's players to be successful.

Remember what a difference Greg Robinson made in 2 games after we got rid of Manny Diaz and his exotic schemes?

[Cajun 11675]

2 minutes ago, bullet said:

Alabama missed a bunch of tackles vs. A&M.  Georgia tackles well.  Not so sure anyone else is this year.  Some are worse than others.

Mack, that you?

[Sawbonz 27438]

8 minutes ago, bullet said:

Alabama missed a bunch of tackles vs. A&M.  Georgia tackles well.  Not so sure anyone else is this year.  Some are worse than others.

It’s a nationwide epidemic 

[USNALonghorn 5024]

24 minutes ago, bullet said:

Remember what a difference Greg Robinson made in 2 games after we got rid of Manny Diaz and his exotic schemes?

That’s one of the reason I think it’s a tone management issue. Look at Naivar vs. Utah after we canned Orlando.

[Fondren & Main 6670]

Well, Coach Naivar should be available this off-season.

[BurntOrange&White 39665]

There is a good debate on the tackle styles such as rugby/Seahawks style baseball traditional vs some other style. 
 

 

[DFW Horn 6118]

6 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

There is a good debate on the tackle styles such as rugby/Seahawks style baseball traditional vs some other style. 

Old school, "head across the bow" and "see what you hit" tackling endorsed by DKR in his video isn't being taught as much due to concussion and CTE concerns.

I think the rugby-style has merit, but you've gotta wrap up and drive or roll.

[BurntOrange&White 39665]

1 hour ago, DFW Horn said:

Old school, "head across the bow" and "see what you hit" tackling endorsed by DKR in his video isn't being taught as much due to concussion and CTE concerns.

I think the rugby-style has merit, but you've gotta wrap up and drive or roll.

I think I agree with what Pinkerton said after ironically this video was posted. 
 

“This video is fantastic… literally our tackling looks like the “bad tackling technique” examples. 
I honestly don’t understand why we arnt just using the traditional technique. When I watch SEC games it seems they tackle in a much more traditional way. Maybe this changes by necessity soon.”

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Tackling is overrated. 

[F250 28691]

47 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

“This video is fantastic… literally our tackling looks like the “bad tackling technique” examples. 
I honestly don’t understand why we arnt just using the traditional technique. When I watch SEC games it seems they tackle in a much more traditional way. Maybe this changes by necessity soon.”

Nobody is using the old traditional method anymore. Rugby style is the future and things have been trending this way for about a decade.

I've had several kids go through middle and high school football, two line backers and a cornerback and I had to learn about the new tackling after my eldest son began his football journey. I was pretty confused by what I first saw when I started observing football practices. It was definitely not what most of us learned.

My kid's were taught Hawk tackling in high school and there were no tackling drills like the old days. They use robots for tackling in practice and don't go full speed outside of scrimmages. I believe this is pretty much the same for all Texas high schools. The THSCA pushes this style and I believe it's required by the UIL.

I believe Chris Ash coaches this technique (Atavus) which is what is being taught across the state. PK has a similar technique with a slight difference. I believe this is where the heads up vs. Hawk roll comes into play. I don't think PK is a "heads up" guy like Ash. So what the current Longhorn players are learning is similar to what Ash taught but they are having to make some adjustments in technique. Hopefully our tackling problems are just the players adjusting to the new style.

Anyone familiar with the linear vs rotational swing in baseball? This is like that but probably not as extreme. That was another mind bender I had to go through with my oldest.

 

 

[RoyalBevo21 719]

14 minutes ago, F250 said:

Nobody is using the old traditional method anymore. Rugby style is the future and things have been trending this way for about a decade.

I've had several kids go through middle and high school football, two line backers and a cornerback and I had to learn about the new tackling after my eldest son began his football journey. I was pretty confused by what I first saw when I started observing football practices. It was definitely not what most of us learned.

My kid's were taught Hawk tackling in high school and there were no tackling drills like the old days. They use robots for tackling in practice and don't go full speed outside of scrimmages. I believe this is pretty much the same for all Texas high schools. The THSCA pushes this style and I believe it's required by the UIL.

I believe Chris Ash coaches this technique (Atavus) which is what is being taught across the state. PK has a similar technique with a slight difference. I believe this is where the heads up vs. Hawk roll comes into play. I don't think PK is a "heads up" guy like Ash. So what the current Longhorn players are learning is similar to what Ash taught but they are having to make some adjustments in technique. Hopefully our tackling problems are just the players adjusting to the new style.

Anyone familiar with the linear vs rotational swing in baseball? This is like that but probably not as extreme. That was another mind bender I had to go through with my oldest.

 

 

Well, whatever they're teaching it ain't working. I picked a random year (2007) on 247 recruit ranking. Texas (the state) had 5 Linebackers ranked in the top 25 of HS LB's.

In the class of 2022 there are currently two......

Defensive talent coming out of Texas has fell off a cliff.

[DanTheHorn 4902]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:55 PM, Blackcat00 said:

Foster is playing to not get hurt and you can see it. His FRESH year it looked like he was shot out of a missile but would miss 3 weeks due to his body being beat to shit. Have to try and play with discipline but physical. 

He seems to be jogging instead of running to get where he needs to be. He has a clear shot at 13 on his first TD but never gets there since he seems undecided.

Edited October 13, 2021 by DanTheHorn

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

I’m not a coach. But someone asked Ryan Day about tackling on his radio show this week. He said they work on tackling every Tuesday during practice. He said that you can’t work on it every practice or you won’t have any players on game day. He stressed the scheme and knowing your assignment. And he said, just like every other coach I’ve ever heard talk about it, how you need to have players flying to the ball so if the first guy misses then the other guys clean it up.

Under Urban Meyer the Bucks adopted tackling techniques from rugby. I’m not able to describe what those were.

Chris Spielman used to say, “One step wrap, two steps squeeze, drive through the ball carrier, play until after the whistle,” or something to that effect.

I think a lot of players nowadays might be afraid to wrap up for fear of getting hurt. But then you wind up with guys just trying to knock a ball carrier down with their shoulder and that doesn’t work. But when it does work then it might show up on SportsCenter. But I do believe that the most important thing is that you need to have all the defenders flying to the ball. That’s been a consistent feature of all the best defenses I’ve ever seen. 

[Jimbob 417]

On 10/11/2021 at 3:08 PM, jeevsie said:

Tackling is something we should do every game. Maybe even ever series.  I might even go so far as to say every play.

I absolutely agree, we particularly need someone to come in and teach our Oline the proper tackling techniques that OU employs. That shit apparently works and doesn’t get called often.  
 

We don’t even need OUs linemen, just their technique and Bijan runs for 400yds and 8 tds a game, and I dare anyone to keep up.  

[Longboard Horn 40146]

It seems like they don't teach the fundamentals of wrapping up anymore. Kids nowadays do that bumping shit thinking it'll work. Wrap the guy up and drive through him!

[BurntOrange&White 39665]

8 hours ago, F250 said:

Nobody is using the old traditional method anymore. Rugby style is the future and things have been trending this way for about a decade.

I've had several kids go through middle and high school football, two line backers and a cornerback and I had to learn about the new tackling after my eldest son began his football journey. I was pretty confused by what I first saw when I started observing football practices. It was definitely not what most of us learned.

My kid's were taught Hawk tackling in high school and there were no tackling drills like the old days. They use robots for tackling in practice and don't go full speed outside of scrimmages. I believe this is pretty much the same for all Texas high schools. The THSCA pushes this style and I believe it's required by the UIL.

I believe Chris Ash coaches this technique (Atavus) which is what is being taught across the state. PK has a similar technique with a slight difference. I believe this is where the heads up vs. Hawk roll comes into play. I don't think PK is a "heads up" guy like Ash. So what the current Longhorn players are learning is similar to what Ash taught but they are having to make some adjustments in technique. Hopefully our tackling problems are just the players adjusting to the new style.

Anyone familiar with the linear vs rotational swing in baseball? This is like that but probably not as extreme. That was another mind bender I had to go through with my oldest.

 

I'm pretty fucking certain Alabama and Georgia don't teach rugby/atavus. What really pisses me off is watching us try and do this method near the goal line and players just running through our arm tackles or the angles it's creating just cut back.

I'd be willing to argue that the geographic region we are about to go play in as a whole isn't teaching Atavus or Rugby style at the high school levels as a whole. As mentioned above look at the decline of quality and quantity of top tier LBs and DL in the state. Something changed besides going to the spread and those guys aren't being produced. The aggies, unfortunately, have a top tier defensive front 7 and only 2-3 guys on their two deep are from Texas.

 

Atavus.....that's the other thing they mentioned.

 

Here is some comments from both sides of the IT argument about that. Seems like that was created

 

Navy horn apparently was a scholarship DB under Akina/Whithers, he had this long winded post because someone asked him about all the arm tackling:

 

Quote

Ask, and you shall receive.

Just in case someone doesn't understand the nuance of "form tackling" vs "rugby tackling", these are the details:

The reason that "rugby tackling" doesn't work in college football because when you don't get your head across (or in front of...on the up-field side), you can't strike the ball carrier and transfer momentum and stop forward progress. That's why we give up so many yards after contact, and soooo many broken tackles.

Proponents of "rugby tackling" or "Seahawk tackling" say that it is safer, because it gets the defender's head away from the tackle. If you look at the rules and understand human phisiology you know none of that is true. There are tons of instances where an argument could be made that "rugby tackling" and the results of those misses are making football more dangerous. Case/Point... look at Okafor's injury vs TCU, it was because he got hit by a defender who missed Bijan after a failed "rugby tackle". His momentum wasn't transferred to the runner, he whipped past and rolled up our lineman's leg. This cost our young man his football career.

There isn't anything unsafe or illegal about making proper "form tackles". (Head across, Strike, Wrap Arms, Drive). If you keep your eyes up and see what you hit, you take a better angle (you cut off the ball carrier's progress. If you keep your eyes up and strike with your facemask, you will never get called for targeting. You won't get injured, and you won't get a concussion. Those arguments against conventional tackling are plain ignorant.

Our angle are terrible (because the players are picking the wrong aim point). Just like in any instance where you are trying to hit a moving target, or you want to stop it, you have to lead it. Rugby tackling causes bad angles because our pursuit isn't properly leading the ball carriers. Second order effects are that we don't strike ball-carriers because our aim-point is wrong. Our opponents break arm-tackles because they easily run through weak contact (when we do actually strike a glancing blow).

It's embarrassing to watch, and it has gone on for so long that it seems like our defensive coaches don't understand physics, the rules of the game, or how to win at football...where hitting the **** out of the other team is a necessary part of the game.

Look, we have average players on defense. You can win with average, but the players have to make the plays when they are in the position to make them. This game we are playing isn't rugby. The scoring rules are different, the value on field position vs possession are different, and the equipment that the player's wear makes the method necessary to stop a play different. This is a fact, our Defensive Coordinator is coaching these players to fail. I see BJ Foster getting crapped on all over the fan boards, and this is a kid that came to Austin as a stone-cold assassin. He can't even make contact anymore. It's criminal what this method has done to him, and the rest of the team.

No NFL scouts could have looked at anyone on our defense yesterday and said "I need that to improve my roster." We might have had some recruits look at that side of the ball and think "These guys stink, I can play there now." But that silver lining is going to vanish through the transfer portal when they get to campus and realize they are being coached to arrive to the play unprepared to make it.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[RexWilson 1341]

I'm a middle school coach and as several stated above, the UIL makes us teach the Atavus method. A big gripe I have is coaches are required to get recertification every 2 years and we have to pay a $40 fee to Atavus. It's a fucking racket.

I have been around long enough to have experienced the change from a coaching perspective. With Atavus, we coach you strike your near shoulder to ball carrier's near hip. Head goes behind, you are supposed to wrap and drive. It is simply easier to break tackles because we are over emphasized on a limited amount of the body making contact.

Just a guess, but I think another factor that makes for a lower success rate (Atavus method) in football compared to rugby is the shoulder pads. If you are going to put such an emphasis on the near shoulder/arm wrap, the pads do reduce your arm range of motion and make wrapping more difficult, especially at my level where the pads are just as big as some of the kids.

[USNALonghorn 5024]

I played high school football and fucked around with club rugby after my collegiate track stint flamed out. Rugby tackling works well for rugby for two reasons. First, you’re not wearing a helmet and shoulder pads. Trying to tackle in rugby the same way you tackle in football will get your head or neck area injured very quickly. Tucking your head behind the ball carrier prevents your neck from being cranked and protects you head face from knees, arms, and other hard body parts. Second reason is that yardage doesn’t matter in rugby. The tackle does not transfer momentum as effectively and you may feel like you’re getting “trucked” as you bring he ball carrier down. The only thing that matters in rugby defense is getting the ball carrier down, so your supporting defenders can initiate a scrum to regain possession of the ball. Also, in rugby I encountered a lot fewer full speed head-on tackling situations based on how the game is set up to be much more continuous and fluid than football.
 

Back to football: rugby tackling is safer, but it gives up a lot more yardage due to reasons listed above. In football, formations are reset 80-100 times per game, so the back seven find themselves in head on tackling situations very frequently. In these situations rugby style tackling will allow the runner to fall forward over you or run you over if he has a strength advantage. The helmet and pads are worn for a reason. Placing your face mask on the belly and driving through the ballcarrier is much more forgiving when they are worn.
 

There may be some pursuit angles where rugby tackling is just as effective as traditional tackling, but for most football specific scenarios the traditional way is far superior. If you’re worried about injuries, hire a good S&C coach and practice tackling at least once a week.

[F250 28691]

4 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

 

I'm pretty fucking certain Alabama and Georgia don't teach rugby/atavus. What really pisses me off is watching us try and do this method near the goal line and players just running through our arm tackles or the angles it's creating just cut back.

I'd be willing to argue that the geographic region we are about to go play in as a whole isn't teaching Atavus or Rugby style at the high school levels as a whole. As mentioned above look at the decline of quality and quantity of top tier LBs and DL in the state. Something changed besides going to the spread and those guys aren't being produced. The aggies, unfortunately, have a top tier defensive front 7 and only 2-3 guys on their two deep are from Texas.

 

Atavus.....that's the other thing they mentioned.

 

Here is some comments from both sides of the IT argument about that. Seems like that was created

 

Navy horn apparently was a scholarship DB under Akina/Whithers, he had this long winded post because someone asked him about all the arm tackling:

 

 

I am not sure what they are doing in Alabama and Georgia at the HS level. I do know that Saban has his own tackling method that Bama uses and I am guessing Kirby uses it at Georgia. I only know about Texas because of having kids go through it. The UIL and THSCA are proponents of Atavus so it's not going away in Texas.

It's an interesting topic and will take you down a rabbit hole once you look into the competing systems. What is interesting is this seems to be a settled issue in the NFL and I suspect it has something to do with the NFLPA demanding safer requirements which is something college players can't do.

[BurntOrange&White 39665]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

I am not sure what they are doing in Alabama and Georgia at the HS level. I do know that Saban has his own tackling method that Bama uses and I am guessing Kirby uses it at Georgia. I only know about Texas because of having kids go through it. The UIL and THSCA are proponents of Atavus so it's not going away in Texas.

It's an interesting topic and will take you down a rabbit hole once you look into the competing systems. What is interesting is this seems to be a settled issue in the NFL and I suspect it has something to do with the NFLPA demanding safer requirements which is something college players can't do.

I could see how these methods would be more effective in the NFL when most athletes are generally the same caliber. But as you go down in skill levels and competition levels from NCAA to 6a high school, to 4a high school, and 2a high school those benefits get exploited more and the room for error or missed tackles is greatly increased. I personally think these methods are why we're seeing fewer and fewer elite legitimate linebackers in the state. I wonder what the monetary benefits the THSCA is receiving from atavus?

Edited October 13, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[UTEE97 3429]

7 hours ago, Longboard Horn said:

It seems like they don't teach the fundamentals of wrapping up anymore. Kids nowadays do that bumping shit thinking it'll work. Wrap the guy up and drive through him!

Seems to me they just don't want to risk getting hurt and miss out on a chance to get drafted. NFL appears to put a lot of weight on the measurables at the combine and/or Pro Day. If you're a DB with strong measurables, you feel like you can just coast through 3 years of college, then show out at the combine/Pro day to get noticed, and get a chance to play in the NFL. If you get hurt, you have no chance.

[BurntOrange&White 39665]

12 minutes ago, UTEE97 said:

Seems to me they just don't want to risk getting hurt and miss out on a chance to get drafted. NFL appears to put a lot of weight on the measurables at the combine and/or Pro Day. If you're a DB with strong measurables, you feel like you can just coast through 3 years of college, then show out at the combine/Pro day to get noticed, and get a chance to play in the NFL. If you get hurt, you have no chance.

I mean how many kids were getting hurt the old form tackling way? Is there conclusive evidence that was causing injuries? It seems that atavus tackling seems really bad on shoulders and etc.  I'm just asking these questions because I'm genuinely curious. As Grant said in his post it appears the SEC isn't coaching these methods overall. 

This is really an interesting subject to discuss.

Edited October 13, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[F250 28691]

45 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

I could see how these methods would be more effective in the NFL when most athletes are generally the same caliber. But as you go down in skill levels and competition levels from NCAA to 6a high school, to 4a high school, and 2a high school those benefits get exploited more and the room for error or missed tackles is greatly increased. I personally think these methods are why we're seeing fewer and fewer elite legitimate linebackers in the state. I wonder what the monetary benefits the THSCA is receiving from atavus?

Atavus is certainly making a profit. I suspect that there is a combination of companies profiting mixed with advocates of their system and adherents of a particular system that are true believers like our current defensive coordinator.

25 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

I mean how many kids were getting hurt the old form tackling way? Is there conclusive evidence that was causing injuries? It seems that atavus tackling seems really bad on shoulders and etc.  I'm just asking these questions because I'm genuinely curious. As Grant said in his post it appears the SEC isn't coaching these methods overall. 

This is really an interesting subject to discuss.

This all goes back to CTE. There is no question that the old method of leading with your helmet and planting your face mask into the numbers was causing the brain to bounce around on a regular basis.

The new method of tackling along with the new penalties has lead to an increase in knee injuries as players are now hitting lower. Considering football is a violent sport, this was a pick your poison decision. Increase the risk of injuring knees and shoulders while lowering the risk of brain damage was the choice made to save the sport.

Nobody uses the old method anymore. Even Alabama uses a shoulder first method. Is Saban's method truly superior or is it successful because he has had plenty of time to instuite his method? Ohio State implemented the Hawk roll under Ash and did pretty well. It hasn't worked so well here despite most of our athletes growing up with this method in HS. Maybe it's just the coaching instability.

Does anyone know if TCU has a tackling problem? They are loaded with Texas HS players and usually run a solid defense.

 

 

[JBJ 3649]

Georgia doesn't do the rugby shoulder tackle. It's heads up and lead with the chest to the chest.  They emphasize wrap up, squeeze, and let another defender finish if necessary.

They still do gator rolls from the side, but that seems universal.

[RoyalBevo21 719]

How tackling should be done. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NZbhgf33sg