The NBA's Mount Rushmore

[hobbes2702 13083]

2 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

well i think that everything you've just said is dumb, but we can agree to disagree. you think talent and greatness are the same thing, i fundamentally disagree, and that's ok. 

No I think talents combined with results with 20 years worth of them is pretty definitive of someone’s greatness. Seriously man I’m sorry but this is a ridiculous take

[shadow_operative 15932]

there are shit tons of football people who believe that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL, and that he has been the best QB in the NFL for years. none of those people think he's greater than Tom Brady. that's not "threading the needle with semantics", it's differentiating between talent and greatness. 

to use a different football analogy, this Bird vs LeBron thing feels a lot like arguing about Jerry Rice vs Randy Moss. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

No I think talents combined with results with 20 years worth of them is pretty definitive of someone’s greatness. Seriously man I’m sorry but this is a ridiculous take

i think that winning titles more than you lose them is definitive of someone's greatness, and i don't think it's a ridiculous take at all, in fact i'm quite secure in that line of reasoning. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by shadow_operative

[hobbes2702 13083]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative said:

i think that winning titles more than you lose them is definitive of someone's greatness, and i don't think it's a ridiculous take at all, in fact i'm quite secure in that line of reasoning. 

Ok dude. Have fun with that. Larry’s 3-2 record in the finals is Herculean lol.

[hobbes2702 13083]

5 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

there are shit tons of football people who believe that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL, and that he has been the best QB in the NFL for years. none of those people think he's greater than Tom Brady. that's not "threading the needle with semantics", it's differentiating between talent and greatness. 

to use a different football analogy, this Bird vs LeBron thing feels a lot like arguing about Jerry Rice vs Randy Moss. 

We aren’t comparing players that currently play against each other where one is significantly older than the other. Lebron is more dominant, has better stats, has been to more, has won more finals, has more MVPs, made more 1st team all defense, made more all nba.
Yea except Lebron is Jerry Rice with Randy Moss’ gifts and Bird is neither of them 

Edited October 16, 2021 by hobbes2702

[ztejas 43555]

Hobbes fucked with me enough once upon a time for me to ignore him but I'm rescinding that because he's making all of my points for me here. 

[hobbes2702 13083]

11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Hobbes fucked with me enough once upon a time for me to ignore him but I'm rescinding that because he's making all of my points for me here. 

I like to argue after a couple old fashioneds. Sorry I’m not sorry lol

[Mole 4333]

If the ‘81-‘82 Celtics has completed the comeback against the Sixers in the conference finals and then lost to the Lakers in the finals, would that have made Bird’s legacy better or worse?

If you say worse, you’re arguing that losing the conference finals is better than winning it. If you say it wouldn’t change his legacy any, you are likewise arguing that winning the conference means nothing. If you say better, you’re arguing 3-3 in the finals is better than 3–2 (it is).

Edited October 16, 2021 by Mole

[ztejas 43555]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

I like to argue after a couple old fashioneds. Sorry I’m not sorry lol

A couple? Didn't take you for a bitch. 

You all good man. NBA thread is my worst contribution to this site by far but part of it is just the nature of it. 

[conVINCEd 21473]

I would’ve like to have seen Bird not have the back problems.  The East would have been a lot more interesting during MJ’s prime.  But he had the back problems, and you can’t give him credit for shit he might’ve done if he was healthy.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

6 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

 

1) Just no. Larry is amazing but he isn’t beating Lebron 65-75% of the time. He isn’t beating him 50% of the time.

2) Who cares who would win 1 on 1? That has zero to do with the topic.

3) Lebron is the 2nd best player ever. He’s on Rushmore, and he’s ahead of Larry and everyone else not named MJ on the all time ranking. I’m not even really sure why anyone would attempt to debate that.

Because it's fucking debatable.  Not Bird but at least 3 other players can challenge Lebron and at least two others have better cases.....

 

[hobbes2702 13083]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Because it's fucking debatable.  Not Bird but at least 3 other players can challenge Lebron and at least two others have better cases.....

 

You know what that’s fair and I should rephrase. I’m not sure why anyone would attempt to debate that Larry is better or greater than Lebron because he simply is not.

That said I disagree that anyone has a better case than him for #2. I think KAJ could have an argument but that’s about it in my mind.

Edited October 16, 2021 by hobbes2702

[ztejas 43555]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

at least 3 other players can challenge Lebron

Name them and make their cases. Let's make this thread more entertaining than it already is. 

Maybe I'll get drunk enough to actually list what LeBron has done and end this - but why deny the pageantry.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

You know what that’s fair and I should rephrase. I’m not sure why anyone would attempt to debate that Larry is better or greater than Lebron because he simply is not

I agree.  Larry Legend was greatness, but Lebron's accomplishments and skillset are crazy good.  If you want to say..... modern era (after merger) then I probably agree Lebron is 2nd..... after Uwe Blab.

[hobbes2702 13083]

I’ll go,

Rushmore : MJ, Lebron, Russell, KAJ

I could see both Magic or Wilt over their contemporaries. To me though those 6 guys are the top 6 pretty easily. Larry is 7, Tim is 8, Hakeem Is 9. But I think the top 6 are pretty clear from the rest.

[HookEm 2468]

How many titles did KAJ win as the best player on a team?

[hobbes2702 13083]

8 minutes ago, HookEm said:

How many titles did KAJ win as the best player on a team?

This is why I think Lebron and MJ are clearly the top two. There’s not many contenders for the 2nd spot and all others have much bigger questions than Lebron imo.

KAJ had Magic as the best player for 3 of his finals.

Magic played with Kareem and Worthy and couldn’t score like the other contenders.

Bill dominated but the game was different and Wilt was probably still better than he was at least in pure skill.

Wilt lost to Bill for the title a lot.

[shadow_operative 15932]

FTR i've done my "all time greatest" list in the past and have had LBJ as high as no.2 before. but the more time has gone in, the more his playoff/finals record continues to bother me. what he (and Kyrie) did in Cleveland was some all-time great shit. The zenith of his career for me.that's the one playoff feat of his that is truly all-time greatness to me. although it is worth noting that if Draymond doesn't get himself suspended then the series likely ends as a 4-1 loss for LBJ. this and the Ray Allen shot are huge swings in LBJ's favor when looking at his postseason resume. two things that had nothing to do with him or anything that he did, and yet he's down two titles if those things don't happen. it's pretty wild. but i digress.

point is, aside from LBJ's Cleveland title, i don't put LeBron's playoff/finals exploits on par with those of MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Duncan, and probably even more. has LeBron even been more dominant in the playoffs/Finals than KD? perhaps, but it's close. what would those two guy's records look like if they switched teams for their careers? i don't think that LBJ did anything in his situation that KD wouldn't have done, and vice versa.  meaning i don't see a huge difference between LBJ and one of his own contemporaries. thus you can see why the idea that LBJ is inarguably the second greatest player ever is something that i take issue with. throw him out in the West for his whole career like KD and throw KD in the East and tell me that KD doesn't have four titles to LBJ's two. let LBJ navigate Russ and OKC through the West for 9 years while KD plays with Wade and Bosh in a super weak East and tell me ghat KD doesn't have more rings than LBJ. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by shadow_operative

[ztejas 43555]

7 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

point is, aside from LBJ's Cleveland title, i don't put LeBron's playoff/finals exploits on par with those of MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Duncan, and probably even more. has LeBron been more dominant in the playoffs/Finals than KD? perhaps, but it's close. what would those two guy's records look like if they switched teams for their careers? i don't think that either one's career looks significantly different, meaning i don't see a huge difference between LBJ and one of his own contemporaries. thus you can see why the idea that LBJ is inarguably the second greatest player ever is something that i take issue with. throw him out in the West for his whole career like KD and throw KD in the East and tell me that KD doesn't have four titles to LBJ's two. 

I'm the biggest KD fan on this board, G, and if you can find 10 people out in the wild that are bigger fans of his or know more about his career than I do then I will personally suck your dick (but, you know, it isn't happening).

That said - Durant isn't close to LeBron's level in terms of career accomplishments. If KD wins a couple more maybe it becomes a debate but as of now it isn't remotely close. LeBron - over his career - has by far been the better player and by far has the better resume. And that isn't a disservice to my boy because he's awesome - but he has some work cut out for him if he wants to enter that discussion. Like two titles and two FMVPs at least type work. Acting like they are what they are because of situation is silly. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I'm the biggest KD fan on this board, G, and if you can find 10 people out in the wild that are bigger fans of his or know more about his career than I do then I will personally suck your dick (but, you know, it isn't happening).

That said - Durant isn't close to LeBron's level in terms of career accomplishments. If KD wins a couple more maybe it becomes a debate but as of now it isn't remotely close. LeBron - over his career - has by far been the better player and by far has the better resume. And that isn't a disservice to my boy because he's awesome - but he has some work cut out for him if he wants to enter that discussion. Like two titles and two FMVPs at least type work. Acting like they are what they are because of situation is silly. 

that's the point of my post- have them switch teams/conferences for their careers and it's KD who has more titles/career accomplishments.

[ztejas 43555]

Just now, shadow_operative said:

that's the point of my post- have them switch teams/conferences for their careers and it's KD who has more titles/career accomplishments.

That just isn't true, man. You need to acknowledge how amazing LeBron is. If Durant is catching him it's on the back end. To be fair - what KD did against the Bucks last year displayed some of the greatest basketball anyone has ever witnessed - but he needs to keep that up and cash it in because LeBron was doing that for YEARS. Check LeBron's numbers in that 2018 Finals run that he had no business making. Remind yourself that he made the Finals in 2007 with a bunch of garbage. Pore over his playoff numbers from 2012 through 2016. Dude is immaculate. Effervescent. Untouchable. He's absurd - man - and there's no denying it as much as you are trying to.

There is a universe where KD outdoes him. But that universe requires Durant to at least rattle off a couple in a row - if not 3 in a row - and take home maybe another MVP in the process. 

Again - no one more than me would like to see it happen. I live and breathe KD. But as of right now - 10/16/21 - Bron is smacking our boy. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

7 minutes ago, ztejas said:

That just isn't true, man.

well i wholeheartedly disagree, and i've yet to hear an actual argument that says otherwise. you don't think KD wins two titles in Miami? hell, if KD is on Miami then i doubt they lose in 2011! you think that LeBron takes Russ's crazy ass and leads OKC to a title? for real? i don't think so at all. you think LBJ cruises to seven straight conference finals appearances with OKC in the West? of course not. so, to act as if LBJ and KD have been competing on an even playing field or that LeBron didn't benefit from playing in a garbage conference for 14 years is totally disingenuous. throw LeBron out West and his career resume looks totally different. Same for KD playing in the East.

Edited October 16, 2021 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15932]

hell, the last time we saw LeBron playing he was leading an LAL roster that resembled his old EC teams to a wholly uninspiring 4-2 series loss to the Phoenix Suns where he did not look anything like "the unanimous second best player ever". the biggest, strongest, highest USG guy on the court got to the FT line a whopping 3.8 times per game (37.3 mpg) and hit them at a truly depressing .609 clip. yeah. let him spend his entire career out West and there is zero chance that his career accomplishments aren't significantly impacted.

[ztejas 43555]

2 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

well i wholeheartedly disagree, and i've yet to hear an actual argument that says otherwise. you don't think KD wins two titles in Miami? hell, if KD is on Miami then i doubt they lose in 2011! you think that LeBron takes Russ's crazy ass and leads OKC to a title? for real? i don't think so at all. you think LBJ cruises to seven straight conference finals appearances with OKC in the West? of course not. so, to act as if LBJ and KD have been competing on an even playing field or that LeBron didn't benefit from playing in a garbage conference for 14 years is totally disingenuous. throw LeBron out West and his career resume looks totally different. Same for KD playing in the East.

Durant's two titles were won with Steph, Klay and Dray. Yes I think LeBron manages enough to win those with those teammates. Swap 2012 LeBron with 2012 Durant - LeBron whips Miami's ass. 

The only argument for Durant is that his peak might be higher and that only arose after last season's playoffs. If Durant can replicate that for a couple more years and win 2 straight then I think it becomes an interesting discussion. But KD needs to do that. 

Give LBJ some credit for staying healthy and playing through the playoffs every year - first of all. Durant has missed all kinds of prime opportunities due to injury. That stuff counts. You can't just assume he'd be awesome had he not gotten injured. LeBron made the Finals eight straight fucking times. I don't care what conference he was playing in - no one has ever come close to that in a 30 team league. 

Again - again - again - again - AGAIN MOTHERFUCKER - you are having an OBSESSIVE KEVIN DURANT FAN tell you why LeBron is better and you are still refusing to listen. 

Whatever, chief. You do you. LeBron is solidly #2 behind the GOAT and until KD disputes it it is fact. Not fiction. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

Going back to the Larry Bird thing... I guess it comes down to your criteria for Rushmore. The thing you have to give LeBron is longevity and durability. But as far as overall impact on the sport and the league? As far as who would you pick first in a pickup game if your life depended on the outcome? Who would you trust the most with the game on the line? Who was the best at their absolute peak? Who was more feared and respected by their opponents? I'm taking Bird in all of those categories. 

Bird was just a different cat. And frankly, I can't remember ever rooting for either one of them. I watch LeBron in clutch time in the playoffs and think, "You should probably foul him. This nail biting choke is going to miss these free throws." I watched Bird and thought, "It doesn't matter what you do to him, if he gets the ball you're going to fucking lose."

But otherwise, there really isn't a statistical argument against LeBron. He's arguably the most physically gifted player ever and his skill level and basketball iq are off the charts. When he's done, he will probably have had the best overall career in NBA history, just ahead of Kareem and Duncan. 

But the other reason I put Bird on Rushmore over LBJ is because Bird's  (along with Magic) legacy is saving the league from having the finals on tape delay to being on par with MLB and the NFL in our nation's sport consciousness. On the other hand, Lebron's legacy is players deciding that they are going to collude and build their super teams in the major markets. I think it's horrible for the long term health of the sport and the competitive balance of the league. So yeah... I'm not putting  that dude on my mountain. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

27 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Going back to the Larry Bird thing... I guess it comes down to your criteria for Rushmore. The thing you have to give LeBron is longevity and durability. But as far as overall impact on the sport and the league? As far as who would you pick first in a pickup game if your life depended on the outcome? Who would you trust the most with the game on the line? Who was the best at their absolute peak? Who was more feared and respected by their opponents? I'm taking Bird in all of those categories. 

Bird was just a different cat. And frankly, I can't remember ever rooting for either one of them. I watch LeBron in clutch time in the playoffs and think, "You should probably foul him. This nail biting choke is going to miss these free throws." I watched Bird and thought, "It doesn't matter what you do to him, if he gets the ball you're going to fucking lose."

But otherwise, there really isn't a statistical argument against LeBron. He's arguably the most physically gifted player ever and his skill level and basketball iq are off the charts. When he's done, he will probably have had the best overall career in NBA history, just ahead of Kareem and Duncan. 

But the other reason I put Bird on Rushmore over LBJ is because Bird's  (along with Magic) legacy is saving the league from having the finals on tape delay to being on par with MLB and the NFL in our nation's sport consciousness. On the other hand, Lebron's legacy is players deciding that they are going to collude and build their super teams in the major markets. I think it's horrible for the long term health of the sport and the competitive balance of the league. So yeah... I'm not putting  that dude on my mountain. 

i was definitely surprised to see Larry Bird singled out among the guys i listed as possibly being ahead of LBJ- not a single person had a problem with Tim Duncan being mentioned, but the mention of Larry Bird was met with vehement opposition by several posters whom im pretty sure didn't actually get to watch Larry play. of all the people to diss and dismiss, Larry ain't one of them. one of the handful of baddest dudes ever.

Edited October 16, 2021 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15932]

28 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Bird was just a different cat. And frankly, I can't remember ever rooting for either one of them. I watch LeBron in clutch time in the playoffs and think, "You should probably foul him. This nail biting choke is going to miss these free throws." I watched Bird and thought, "It doesn't matter what you do to him, if he gets the ball you're going to fucking lose."

 

that's really it right there. if your life was on the line and you needed a shot to win, a three to win, two FTs to win, and your choices are LBJ and Larry- literally the only people who should pick LeBron are people who actively want to die. 

and again, LBJ's best qualities basketball-wise are his IQ and his vision/passing- and yet Larry was better at both. Larry was so, so different. 

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

10 hours ago, HookEm said:

How many titles did KAJ win as the best player on a team?

4.  Tied with Magic in 85'.  3 National championships in college as the best player in the country.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

3 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Going back to the Larry Bird thing... I guess it comes down to your criteria for Rushmore. The thing you have to give LeBron is longevity and durability. But as far as overall impact on the sport and the league? As far as who would you pick first in a pickup game if your life depended on the outcome? Who would you trust the most with the game on the line? Who was the best at their absolute peak? Who was more feared and respected by their opponents? I'm taking Bird in all of those categories. 

Bird was just a different cat. And frankly, I can't remember ever rooting for either one of them. I watch LeBron in clutch time in the playoffs and think, "You should probably foul him. This nail biting choke is going to miss these free throws." I watched Bird and thought, "It doesn't matter what you do to him, if he gets the ball you're going to fucking lose."

But otherwise, there really isn't a statistical argument against LeBron. He's arguably the most physically gifted player ever and his skill level and basketball iq are off the charts. When he's done, he will probably have had the best overall career in NBA history, just ahead of Kareem and Duncan. 

But the other reason I put Bird on Rushmore over LBJ is because Bird's  (along with Magic) legacy is saving the league from having the finals on tape delay to being on par with MLB and the NFL in our nation's sport consciousness. On the other hand, Lebron's legacy is players deciding that they are going to collude and build their super teams in the major markets. I think it's horrible for the long term health of the sport and the competitive balance of the league. So yeah... I'm not putting  that dude on my mountain. 

I'll just say in Lebron's favor, he's built a global brand like no other player since Jordan and also helped bring about the player power broker era as endorsements now dwarf contracts for the truly elite players.  You may think it's horrible for the sport, but it hasn't shown up in it's global popularity so there aren't many metrics globally to support your position.  However you feel about Lebron, he's been the most powerful player in the league since Jordan and despite being a bit whiny, conducted himself with mostly class and elegance.  Not like when Allen Iverson or Kobe were the most popular players in the league.  

Now, who would I rather have in the last two minutes of a game in their prime?  Larry Joe Bird, no doubt.  The other 46 minutes?  Lebron, he could just do more on both ends of the court at his apex.

 

 

[TommyGufano 6021]

4 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

4.  Tied with Magic in 85'.  3 National championships in college as the best player in the country.

.. and who was better than him in '71?

Not directed at you, but this thread is fucking bananas. Classic Derka

[Hate 20149]

He’s won more titles than Larry and taken his team to the finals more times.

I’m not going back to see if anyone else posted this or not, but LeBron basically had a bye all the way to the Finals all those years in the East. None of those Cleveland teams make the Finals in the West and maybe 2 of those Miami teams do.

[hobbes2702 13083]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

I’m not going back to see if anyone else posted this or not, but LeBron basically had a bye all the way to the Finals all those years in the East. None of those Cleveland teams make the Finals in the West and maybe 2 of those Miami teams do.

And he was apparently the only player in NBA history to figure out how to do that.

Also if you think Miami wouldn’t make the finals with the big 3 then I’m not sure what you were watching.

Amd which Cleveland teams do you think would miss out? Surely not the ones with Kyrie and Love on them?

Edited October 16, 2021 by hobbes2702

[aggie08 21561]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Amd which Cleveland teams do you think would miss out? Surely not the ones with Kyrie and Love on them?

Logically speaking, it stands to reason that any of his teams that lost in the Finals would have been unlikely to make it out of the West.

[hobbes2702 13083]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Logically speaking, it stands to reason that any of his teams that lost in the Finals would have been unlikely to make it out of the West.

I get your point, but who would beat them other than the team that won the finals. That’s my point, all of the “east was so bad that’s why he made it”. Ok so who would eliminate them? The Thunder? Well they got stomped their one chance against the Heat and I don’t see anyway they beat the Cavs teams with Kyrie and Love. The Rockets? Maybe once but they didn’t ever show they were better than Lebrons Cleveland teams. The Spurs? They only had one player at the level of Lebron and once Kawhi went out they got dragged by GSW. I would just like to know which teams in the west would have supposedly kept Lebron out of the finals.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

55 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

.. and who was better than him in '71?

Not directed at you, but this thread is fucking bananas. Classic Derka

Did I miss something?  I know you said it wasn't directed at me, but just wondering did someone say he wasn't easily the best player in 71'?  On the Bucks and in the league..... like really, really easily.  Which brings up another interesting question around how you parse this, not who was the best player was during said player's dominant stretches, but by how much????  Kareem and Wilt have some fucking years where the delta was so large, it's almost incomprehensible.  Jordan probably had a couple of those.

39 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Logically speaking, it stands to reason that any of his teams that lost in the Finals would have been unlikely to make it out of the West.

Right.  lol.  I mean, the questions is maybe, if their Finals opponent and his teams were flip flopped.

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Patrick Bateman

[TommyGufano 6021]

52 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Did I miss something?  I know you said it wasn't directed at me, but just wondering did someone say he wasn't easily the best player in 71'?  On the Bucks and in the league..... like really, really easily.  Which brings up another interesting question around how you parse this, not who was the best player was during said player's dominant stretches, but by how much????  Kareem and Wilt have some fucking years where the delta was so large, it's almost incomprehensible.  Jordan probably had a couple of those.

Right.  lol.  I mean, the questions is maybe, if their Finals opponent and his teams were flip flopped.

 

I read 

5 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

4.  Tied with Magic in 85'.  3 National championships in college as the best player in the country.

as meaning there were 4 instances where he was best player on title team: 1985 plus three in college. Guess I misunderstood

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

26 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I read 

as meaning there were 4 instances where he was best player on title team: 1985 plus three in college. Guess I misunderstood

Ah.  Meant 4 in the NBA.  71', 80', 82', and 85' (tied with Magic, their numbers were extremely close).  87' and 88' it was clearly Magic.  And then an additional 3 National Championships in college.  One thing I think folks forget which penalizes past players is their collegiate careers, which were often 3-4 years and where all great players were funneled into.  Overall, between college and pro basketball, Kareem won 9 championships and competed in 13 title tournament games/series.  Not bad for a guy in goggles.

 

[Underdog 28808]

Kareem’s performance against the Celtics after the Memorial Day Massacre is pretty damn legendary.  

[Hornius Emeritus 12491]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:28 PM, TexArcher said:

MJ, LeBron, Magic, Wilt

It has to have MJ and Wilt. The other two could go to anyone of about 6-8 players, depending on what you value most. 

[HookEm 2468]

Sorry, Wilt is the most overrated player in NBA history. He isn’t on my mountain.

[Hate 20149]

8 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

I get your point, but who would beat them other than the team that won the finals. That’s my point, all of the “east was so bad that’s why he made it”. Ok so who would eliminate them? The Thunder? Well they got stomped their one chance against the Heat and I don’t see anyway they beat the Cavs teams with Kyrie and Love. The Rockets? Maybe once but they didn’t ever show they were better than Lebrons Cleveland teams. The Spurs? They only had one player at the level of Lebron and once Kawhi went out they got dragged by GSW. I would just like to know which teams in the west would have supposedly kept Lebron out of the finals.

The West was stacked for many years during that time.  Despite the fact that they beat OKC and SA in the Finals, there is no guarantee they make it through the gauntlet that has been the West for 20+ years.

[aggie08 21561]

22 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Sorry, Wilt is the most overrated player in NBA history. He isn’t on my mountain.

I'm stealing this from some talking head or radio jockey (Bill Simmons maybe?) but Mt. Rushmore has to be the guys that you can't tell the story of the NBA without. I feel like you could tell the story of the NBA without Wilt...it just wouldn't be as titillating.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

18 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I'm stealing this from some talking head or radio jockey (Bill Simmons maybe?) but Mt. Rushmore has to be the guys that you can't tell the story of the NBA without. I feel like you could tell the story of the NBA without Wilt...it just wouldn't be as titillating.

Nah.  Wilt inspired no less than 5 rule changes in the NBA by himself.  Name another player who did so?  Maybe Mikan?  100 point game.  50-25.  Lead the league in assists...... as a center.  He was without a doubt the most dominating player in the game at his peak.  More dominating than Mikan.  More dominating than Shaq.  More dominating than Olajuwon, etc, etc.  7 time leader in points per game.  11 time leader in rebounder per game.  9 time leader in FG percentage.  8 times leader in minutes in a season..... as a center.  8 times leader in PER, 8 times leader in Win Shares..... you get the idea.  All of these stats and this was before they started counting blocks and steals of which he was estimated to average about 8-10 blocks per game and about 5-6 steals. 

You could tell the story of the NBA without a lot of guys, but it would be almost impossible without the Big Dipper.  He was the most dominating player of any era.

 

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

6 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Ah.  Meant 4 in the NBA.  71', 80', 82', and 85' (tied with Magic, their numbers were extremely close).  87' and 88' it was clearly Magic.  And then an additional 3 National Championships in college.  One thing I think folks forget which penalizes past players is their collegiate careers, which were often 3-4 years and where all great players were funneled into.  Overall, between college and pro basketball, Kareem won 9 championships and competed in 13 title tournament games/series.  Not bad for a guy in goggles.

 

You're saying Kareem was better than magic in 80? When he couldn't play in the finals because he had a fucking headache and magic jumped center and won game 6 in one of the most legendary individual performances in NBA history? And also in 1985 when he was 37 years old? And 1982 also? I'm not sure Kareem was ever the best player on any of the teams that had Magic on them. For fucks sake Magic won finals MVP in 1980 and 1982.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

1 minute ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

You're saying Kareem was better than magic in 80? When he couldn't play in the finals because he had a fucking headache and magic jumped center and won game 6 in one of the most legendary individual performances in NBA history? And also in 1985 when he was 37 years old? And 1982 also? I'm not sure Kareem was ever the best player on any of the teams that had Magic on them. For fucks sake Magic won finals MVP in 1980 and 1982.

Are you saying a season is defined by one game or one series?  That's unbelievably short-sighted.

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Are you saying a season is defined by one game or one series?  That's unbelievably short-sighted.

 

No but a championship is certainly won or lost in a series. That was your argument, right? That Kareem was the best player on that team. If you're going to say someone is definitively the best player on a championship team, then I would at least expect them to actually play in the deciding game, not be sitting at home listening to Miles Davis records because they have a sprained ankle while Magic has 42, 7 and 15 while shredding a loaded sixers team as a 20 year old. 

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

22 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

No but a championship is certainly won or lost in a series. That was your argument, right? That Kareem was the best player on that team. If you're going to say someone is definitively the best player on a championship team, then I would at least expect them to actually play in the deciding game, not be sitting at home listening to Miles Davis records because they have a sprained ankle while Magic has 42, 7 and 15 while shredding a loaded sixers team as a 20 year old. 

An amazing game but championships aren't won in one game but over a season.  I don't know, maybe he was polishing his fucking MVP trophy from that season.  C'mon.  He was their best player in the other 3 wins in the series when he went for 33-14, 33-14 and 40-15.  

Magic's probably my favorite player ever and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that KAJ was the best player on that squad.  Not really that close.  82 and 85 definitely close.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

We all know that the league MVP award has its own logic and politics to it. You want to tell me that Karl Malone was better than MJ the year he won it? Or whoever else won it over MJ or LeBron in their primes? 

I'll put it to you this way. Do you honestly think the Lakers still win the 1980 championship if Magic goes out with the ankle instead of Kareem? I don't. I think they end up flaming out like all of the other pre-Magic, Kareem led Lakers:

 

1976 40-42 no playoffs

1977 53-29 swept by Portland in wcf. 

1978 45-37 lost in first round

1979 47-35 lost in conference semis

1980 magic shows up, they go 60-22 and win it all. 

[NoRagrets 1127]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:50 PM, hobbes2702 said:

I define 10 finals trips, 4 rings, as more success and greater than 5 trips, 3 rings. Seems straightforward 

I’m enjoying the banter back and forth, but you haven’t responded to Lebron’s super teams playing a huge part in that vs Larry playing in an era where that wasn’t possible. 

[hobbes2702 13083]

27 minutes ago, NoRagrets said:

I’m enjoying the banter back and forth, but you haven’t responded to Lebron’s super teams playing a huge part in that vs Larry playing in an era where that wasn’t possible. 

You think Larry didn’t play on a super team? Lulz.

The 1983/84 team had 4 HOFers plus Gerald Henderson, Danny Ainge, and Cedric Maxwell. It’s one of the greatest rosters ever in the league.

Edited October 17, 2021 by hobbes2702