The NBA's Mount Rushmore

[Kermit 3159]

53 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You think Larry didn’t play on a super team? Lulz.

The 1983/84 team had 4 HOFers plus Gerald Henderson, Danny Ainge, and Cedric Maxwell. It’s one of the greatest rosters ever in the league.

I think we need to redefine super teams. This is not me arguing with hobbes in any way. Magic, Larry, and Michael all played on super teams. There are super teams created by sheer incompetence of other teams in trades and through the draft, and then there are super teams created by the players through trades free agency. Neither is a wrong way to create a great team, and both can be extremely infuriating (thanks Memphis, you fucking assholes). Larry got the benefit of a great trade for Boston, and Magic got to play with Cap and Worthy (Cleveland doing Cleveland things) . Michael got the benefit of a great GM in Jerry Krause, who no matter how much he was hated was fucking terrific at scouting and team building. KD got to choose where he wanted to destroy the league, as did Lebron. If Michael, Larry, or Magic had got to play in the player empowerment era, we'd be bitching about it too much the same way we bitched about the Lakers getting lucky as fuck that Kobe threatened to sit out if anyone else drafted him or that Pop hated Dennis Rodman so much that Will Perdue looked sexy. Btw, Pop has made some shitty ass trades. 

I really don't know this fucking tangent was about. 

[Hornius Emeritus 12491]

 

11 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I'm stealing this from some talking head or radio jockey (Bill Simmons maybe?) but Mt. Rushmore has to be the guys that you can't tell the story of the NBA without. I feel like you could tell the story of the NBA without Wilt...it just wouldn't be as titillating.

Bill Simmons is a Wilt hater because he's a Celtics lover and, as such, has made some of the dumbest comments regarding not only Wilt but Magic and other players who weren't Celtics. Guarantee you that if you put Wilt on the Celtics Simmons would be arguing the opposite.

Nobody has ever dominated any of the major sports like Wilt did.  With all of his records, perhaps the two most impressive to me are averaging 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season and never fouling out of a game.  He also had the only 20/20/20 game in NBA history and had a quintuple double in 1968  and possibly another in 1962, though blocks and steals were not officially counted back then. He also had three quadruple doubles in the playoffs. 


 

[hobbes2702 13083]

20 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

Bill Simmons is a Wilt hater because he's a Celtics lover and, as such, has made some of the dumbest comments regarding not only Wilt but Magic and other players who weren't Celtics. Guarantee you that if you put Wilt on the Celtics Simmons would be arguing the opposite.

Nobody has ever dominated any of the major sports like Wilt did.  With all of his records, perhaps the two most impressive to me are averaging 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season and never fouling out of a game.  He also had the only 20/20/20 game in NBA history and had a quintuple double in 1968  and possibly another in 1962, though blocks and steals were not officially counted back then. He also had three quadruple doubles in the playoffs. 


 

Yea the Wilt numbers are truly insane. Babe Ruth is the only real comp for him across any of the major sports.

FYI Westbrook got a 20/20/20 after Nipsey died a couple years ago.

[Hate 20149]

There is a huge difference between a GM building a “super team” through the draft or adding free agents and All-Star players deciding to play with each other on some team. McHale and Ainge were draft picks. Worthy, Scott, Cooper, and AC Green were all draft picks of the Lakers. Players didn’t have nearly the control back then compared to now.

[hobbes2702 13083]

8 minutes ago, Hate said:

There is a huge difference between a GM building a “super team” through the draft or adding free agents and All-Star players deciding to play with each other on some team. McHale and Ainge were draft picks. Worthy, Scott, Cooper, and AC Green were all draft picks of the Lakers. Players didn’t have nearly the control back then compared to now.

Why does that matter? The end result is the same. It’s still a super team. If anything Lebron should get credit for being able to convince people to play with him

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

We all know that the league MVP award has its own logic and politics to it. You want to tell me that Karl Malone was better than MJ the year he won it? Or whoever else won it over MJ or LeBron in their primes? 

I'll put it to you this way. Do you honestly think the Lakers still win the 1980 championship if Magic goes out with the ankle instead of Kareem? I don't. I think they end up flaming out like all of the other pre-Magic, Kareem led Lakers:

 

1976 40-42 no playoffs

1977 53-29 swept by Portland in wcf. 

1978 45-37 lost in first round

1979 47-35 lost in conference semis

1980 magic shows up, they go 60-22 and win it all. 

So your contention is Kareem wasn't the best player in 1980?  Magic was?  This is what you're hanging your hat on?  

And I do think they win the 1980 championship if Kareem was left.  He was the dominant force in that series as Magic, as he was all season, was riding shotgun and playing his role as Robin.  They had 2 games to win 1 with a home game in LA in game 7 awaiting, so.... yea, I do.  Magic stepped up in a fantastic and historic way but Kareem was still that straw that stirred that team. 

Again, he was the overwhelming MVP that season and first team center.  Magic received no votes for MVP.  He wasn't on either all-NBA team.  He wasn't even the best rookie in the league that year!  This is a silly conversation, but go look at the numbers.  Seems you're just trying to be contrarian.  Go look at how the accolades.  Go look at how their contemporaries felt about them at that particular time.  No doubt Magic was destined for greatness, but he wasn't the best player on that team...... not yet.

 

[aggie08 21561]

12 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Nah.  Wilt inspired no less than 5 rule changes in the NBA by himself.  Name another player who did so?  Maybe Mikan?  100 point game.  50-25.  Lead the league in assists...... as a center.  He was without a doubt the most dominating player in the game at his peak.  More dominating than Mikan.  More dominating than Shaq.  More dominating than Olajuwon, etc, etc.  7 time leader in points per game.  11 time leader in rebounder per game.  9 time leader in FG percentage.  8 times leader in minutes in a season..... as a center.  8 times leader in PER, 8 times leader in Win Shares..... you get the idea.  All of these stats and this was before they started counting blocks and steals of which he was estimated to average about 8-10 blocks per game and about 5-6 steals. 

You could tell the story of the NBA without a lot of guys, but it would be almost impossible without the Big Dipper.  He was the most dominating player of any era.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

Bill Simmons is a Wilt hater because he's a Celtics lover and, as such, has made some of the dumbest comments regarding not only Wilt but Magic and other players who weren't Celtics. Guarantee you that if you put Wilt on the Celtics Simmons would be arguing the opposite.

Nobody has ever dominated any of the major sports like Wilt did.  With all of his records, perhaps the two most impressive to me are averaging 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season and never fouling out of a game.  He also had the only 20/20/20 game in NBA history and had a quintuple double in 1968  and possibly another in 1962, though blocks and steals were not officially counted back then. He also had three quadruple doubles in the playoffs. 


 

Fair points. I guess a better way to word it would have been, "there are 4-5 guys more integral to the story of the NBA." Fair or not, the guys winning championships defined their eras.

[Guest]

These discussions kind of blur with how much Oktoberfest or bourbon I've consumed, but I'll just posit this:

The competition faced by Larry Legend fucking DWARFS that of LBJ.  You can talk stats all you want, they weren't doing the same lifting.

Edited October 17, 2021 by slorch

[hobbes2702 13083]

Based on what are you claiming that?

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

Kareem, Larry Bird, Jordan and Lebron.   I'd put Tim Duncan at 5 if the authorities will allow an extra head on the mountain. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[Hornius Emeritus 12491]

21 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

Fair points. I guess a better way to word it would have been, "there are 4-5 guys more integral to the story of the NBA." Fair or not, the guys winning championships defined their eras.

Well Wilt won 2 championships and his 1967 Philadelphia team with Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, and Luke Jackson may be the best team of all time. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

am i the only one who has mentioned Jerry West? who has a more impressive lifetime resume in the NBA than he does?

[hobbes2702 13083]

19 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

am i the only one who has mentioned Jerry West? who has a more impressive lifetime resume in the NBA than he does?

You’re the first one to say it and I think you’re actually on to something. His biggest blots are the 1 championship and no MVPs but he’s the damn logo. I mean thats pretty large influence which is kinda what I think the Rushmore is about.

Edited October 18, 2021 by hobbes2702

[shadow_operative 15932]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You’re the first one to say it and I think you’re actually on to something. His biggest blots are the 1 championship and no MVPs but he’s the damn logo. I mean thats pretty large influence which is kinda what I think the Rushmore is about.

he's spent his entire adult life in the NBA, and in terms of influence on the game, man is he on the short list there. one of the all time great players, all time great front office guys, and the logo- that's a pretty serious resume. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

23 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

So your contention is Kareem wasn't the best player in 1980?  Magic was?  This is what you're hanging your hat on?  

And I do think they win the 1980 championship if Kareem was left.  He was the dominant force in that series as Magic, as he was all season, was riding shotgun and playing his role as Robin.  They had 2 games to win 1 with a home game in LA in game 7 awaiting, so.... yea, I do.  Magic stepped up in a fantastic and historic way but Kareem was still that straw that stirred that team. 

Again, he was the overwhelming MVP that season and first team center.  Magic received no votes for MVP.  He wasn't on either all-NBA team.  He wasn't even the best rookie in the league that year!  This is a silly conversation, but go look at the numbers.  Seems you're just trying to be contrarian.  Go look at how the accolades.  Go look at how their contemporaries felt about them at that particular time.  No doubt Magic was destined for greatness, but he wasn't the best player on that team...... not yet.

 

My contention is that in the 1980 playoffs, Magic and Kareem were probably closer to 1a and 1b than Kareem being the best player on an NBA title team. There is, at a minimum, an argument to be made there,. Your argument for Kareem on Mt. Rushmore was based on his being the best player on 4 championship teams: 1971 (absolutely), 1980 (arguable), 1982 (doubtful) and 1985 (no fucking way). There are other arguments to be made for Kareem. I just don't think this is one of them. 

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

51 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

My contention is that in the 1980 playoffs, Magic and Kareem were probably closer to 1a and 1b than Kareem being the best player on an NBA title team. There is, at a minimum, an argument to be made there,. Your argument for Kareem on Mt. Rushmore was based on his being the best player on 4 championship teams: 1971 (absolutely), 1980 (arguable), 1982 (doubtful) and 1985 (no fucking way). There are other arguments to be made for Kareem. I just don't think this is one of them. 

Yea, if we can't agree that the runaway league MVP, who played even better in the playoffs, was the best player on his team, then we're probably not going to agree on future years where it's actually debatable.  Probably best to agree to disagree.

 

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

6 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

You’re the first one to say it and I think you’re actually on to something. His biggest blots are the 1 championship and no MVPs but he’s the damn logo. I mean thats pretty large influence which is kinda what I think the Rushmore is about.

I mean..... that says it all.  No MVPs.  1 Finals MVP in a loss..... that's pretty incredible actually, but in his 1 championship, Wilt nabbed Finals MVP.  Great, great player, but just as a player, he's probably not in the top 10 and that's not a diss.  Now, if you want to weave his Executive work into the story, then he becomes more compelling, but then Red Auerbach probably is the Executive to consider. 

[Hate 20149]

I might give West the executive edge over Auerbach because he won titles with 2 different franchises as the GM.  I wouldn't argue very strongly if someone chose Red though.

[Hornius Emeritus 12491]

Kevin Garnett to do a documentary about Wilt:

https://www.sportico.com/business/media/2021/kevin-garnett-company-to-produce-wilt-chamberlain-documentary-1234644313/

[shadow_operative 15932]

jordan, lebron, magic, rasheed wallace.

[Dutchrudder 11155]

Scott Foster, Joey Crawford, Tony Brothers and Tim Donaghy

[PittsburghTiger 6210]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:33 PM, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

Bill Simmons is a Wilt hater because he's a Celtics lover and, as such, has made some of the dumbest comments regarding not only Wilt but Magic and other players who weren't Celtics. Guarantee you that if you put Wilt on the Celtics Simmons would be arguing the opposite.

Nobody has ever dominated any of the major sports like Wilt did.  With all of his records, perhaps the two most impressive to me are averaging 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season and never fouling out of a game.  He also had the only 20/20/20 game in NBA history and had a quintuple double in 1968  and possibly another in 1962, though blocks and steals were not officially counted back then. He also had three quadruple doubles in the playoffs. 


 

I think Wilt is the greatest. On the train outside Philly and just passed Overbrook, Wilt’s high school. Even the building is amazing and built like a castle, like Wilt was.

[Hornius Emeritus 12491]

3 hours ago, PittsburghTiger said:

I think Wilt is the greatest. On the train outside Philly and just passed Overbrook, Wilt’s high school. Even the building is amazing and built like a castle, like Wilt was.

A couple of photos of Wilt. There are very few people in the history of the planet who could  jump and look down into the basket.