Colin Powell Dead at 84

[Herpa Derpa 6112]

10 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What war crimes? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and a whole lot of others bear more responsibility for the Iraq war than Powell. (Toss in John Yoo for torture.) Why do so many around here want to blame Powell? He wasn’t part of the inner circle. He was a fall guy. I’ve read a dozen books or more about the Bush/Cheney administration and the Iraq war and none of them advance the position that Powell knowingly lied. You cited an article in The Intercept, a source I’ve never found to be credible.

I don’t know what Tenet was thinking. I’ve seen speculation that he was just so happy to be kept on by Dubya that he went along with the game. The Iraq war was going to happen even if 9/11 never did. It wasn’t a failure of intelligence. There were voices in the CIA who knew Curveball was an unreliable source. Do you know about the Office of Special Plans? Do you know about the pre-9/11 architects of the Iraq war like Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle? What about Ahmed Chalabi who the Bush administration had originally picked to lead Iraq before his corruption charges came out? If I cared enough, I could post 305 links from my old “The New War on Iraq” folder, none of which claim that Colin Powell knowingly lied. He was lied to. 

The cabal lied and millions died. He was part of the cabal, whether a patsy or a player. He was part of the team.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

16 minutes ago, Herpa Derpa said:

The cabal lied and millions died. He was part of the cabal, whether a patsy or a player. He was part of the team.

There’s a big difference between being set up and being complicit. Don’t equate the two. 

[bolverk 29401]

5 minutes ago, Herpa Derpa said:

The cabal lied and millions died. He was part of the cabal, whether a patsy or a player. He was part of the team.

That certainly seems to be the consensus view or, at least, as portrayed by the "newspaper of record" and will be what he'll always be remembered for.

As for myself, I was 100% opposed to the invasion of Iraq after having reluctantly resigned myself to the inevitability of the invasion of Afghanistan. When he gave that presentation at the UN to justify the war, it was sorely disappointing. Yeah, the guy had agreed to join up with that administration, so I don't give him too much sympathy. At the same time, it was a tragic decision that he made to allow himself to be used like that.

The NYTimes had a pretty good timeline of his life, how he rose through the ranks, and how he considered running against Clinton but ultimately abruptly decided not to do so. Here's the portion that begins in 2000 with a few key points highlighted.

Not mentioned in the below is the whole Cheney/Wolfowitz angle and their documented establishment of a pro-war CIA embedded within the CIA to basically manufacture intelligence that was ultimately used to make the case for the invasion. I have no doubt that played a role in Powell's willingness to go on record and make the presentation. The only question for me was did he actually believe it or did he work to make it more believable.

Regardless, it's safe to say that it'll be his lasting legacy: the good soldier just following orders.

  

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/politics/colin-powell-dead.html

Secretary of State
He returned to government in December 2000, when he was the first person appointed to the cabinet of President-elect George W. Bush.

His assignment, as secretary of state, started with high hopes and soaring rhetoric from his new boss. “General Powell is an American hero, an American example and a great American story,” Mr. Bush said in announcing his choice on Dec. 16, 2000. “It’s a great day when a son of the South Bronx succeeds to the office first held by Thomas Jefferson.”

Mr. Powell reinvigorated a demoralized department. A computer buff, he brought 21st-century technology to the department and its far-flung embassies. He ordered high-speed internet into overseas posts and expanded training for senior Foreign Service officers and political appointees assigned abroad.

Mr. Powell already had a taste of the diplomatic world when he was national security adviser and chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And after he retired from the military, President Clinton dispatched him, Senator Sam Nunn and former President Jimmy Carter in September 1994 to stave off a potentially bloody invasion of Haiti. The three reached a last-minute agreement with the ruling military junta, allowing a peaceful landing of American forces to help stabilize the country amid unrest.

Mr. Clinton had sounded out Mr. Powell for the secretary of state job in his administration, but Mr. Powell declined. But when George W. Bush asked him to take the post nearly a decade later, Mr. Powell jumped at the opportunity. He had known Mr. Bush, whom he had called “Sonny,” when his father was president. But he had only passing acquaintance with him before the 2000 campaign. Indeed, many political advisers in the Bush campaign were initially wary of the appointment because Mr. Powell had indicated that he might support the Republican candidacy of his old friend, Senator John McCain, in the 2000 primaries.

Mr. Powell took the job at Foggy Bottom without having extensive conversations with Mr. Bush about the president’s views and what Mr. Bush expected. In the first few months of the new administration, he was forced to reverse his publicly stated goal of engaging with North Korea’s hermetic regime and to adopt the White House’s more confrontational approach to preventing the North from developing nuclear weapons.

He clashed with Mr. Cheney and some of the more conservative members of Mr. Bush’s foreign policy team, and was slow to discern his isolation from the rest of the national security team. “The years at State were quite difficult,” said William H. Taft IV, a longtime friend who served as the State Department’s legal adviser during Mr. Bush’s first term. “They were with people who had different world views.”

The terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, put the country on a war footing and galvanized Mr. Bush’s war council. But eight months after the Taliban regime in Afghanistan had fallen, the United States was secretly planning another war: to oust Mr. Hussein from Iraq once and for all.

Mr. Powell was a reluctant warrior in this impending fight, warning Mr. Bush that invading Iraq could destabilize the Middle East, upset oil markets and divert political will and resources from the unfinished fight against Al Qaeda. In a two-hour meeting with Mr. Bush on Aug. 5, 2002, Mr. Powell laid down what became known as the Pottery Barn rules: “You break it, you’re going to own it.”

As he did in the Persian Gulf war, Mr. Powell did not recommend whether the country should go to war or not — that, he believed, was the president’s prerogative alone — but he outlined options. After a failed diplomatic effort to avert a conflict, Mr. Bush turned to Mr. Powell to bolster the administration’s case for use of force if Mr. Hussein did not comply with international demands.

A ‘Painful’ Speech at the U.N.

In a 76-minute speech at the United Nations on Feb. 5, 2003, Mr. Powell pressed the American case for a possible war to disarm Iraq, presenting photographs, electronic intercepts of conversations between Iraqi military officers and information from defectors aimed at proving that Mr. Hussein posed an imminent danger to the world.

In the Bush administration’s most explicit effort to connect the activities between Iraq and Al Qaeda, Mr. Powell suggested that Iraq’s lethal weapons could be given at any time to terrorists who could use them against the United States or Europe.

He provided new details about what he said were Iraq’s effort to develop mobile laboratories to make germ weapons. He asserted that Iraq had sought to hide missiles in its western desert. Significantly, he cited intelligence reports that Mr. Hussein had authorized his military to use poison gas if the United States invaded.

Before the speech, Mr. Powell had spent several days at the C.I.A. grilling analysts on the intelligence, paring back many of the claims in an early White House draft of the speech that he felt were unsupported. Now he felt confident, he told aides before the address in New York.

“Leaving Saddam Hussein in possession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months or years is not an option, not in a post-September 11th world,’’ Mr. Powell declared.

The speech failed to persuade many skeptics in the international community, but Mr. Powell’s personal appeal swung many Americans to support the war, however reluctantly. After American troops invaded in March 2003, however, it became clear that there were no weapons of mass destruction. The intelligence had been wrong.

Two years later, Mr. Powell told Barbara Walters of ABC News that his speech to the United Nations had been “painful” for him personally and would forever be a “blot” on his record.

“I’m the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world,” Mr. Powell said, acknowledging that his presentation “will always be a part of my record.”

He left office in January 2004, returning to life as a private citizen. In 1997, he had founded America’s Promise, a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping at-risk children. He later served as the chairman of the board of visitors of the School for Civic and Global Leadership, named for him at the City University of New York.

Years later, the sting of the United Nations speech still pained him. Yet he sought to move on. “Let others judge me,” Mr. Powell said in the 2007 interview. “All I want to do is judge myself as a successful soldier who served his best.”

[washparkhorn 9935]

Quote

If I cared enough, I could post 305 links from my old “The New War on Iraq” folder, none of which claim that Colin Powell knowingly lied.

Please spoiler them.

-------------------------------------------------------------

To the UN:

POWELL: My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we’re giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.

Later, regarding whether Iraq had reconstituted a nuclear weapons program, he said:

POWELL: There is no doubt in my mind …

------------------------------------------------------------------

According to Larry Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff, here’s what Powell was thinking at the time:

WILKERSON: [Powell] had walked into my office musing and he said words to the effect of, ‘I wonder how we’ll all feel if we put half a million troops in Iraq and march from one end of the country to the other and find nothing.’

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Even if you absolutely believe the worst about Powell at the UN and on WMD (the truth is likely somewhere in between), it’s not a “war crime.” Powell was Secretary of State and led the diplomatic effort, he did not participate in planning, executing, or directing the planning or execution of any military actions. He had no troops under his command. There is nothing in the Geneva Conventions that he could plausibly be convicted for as a war crime; these terms have actual meanings. 

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

A lot of hot take posts on this thread. 

[hobbes2702 12846]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Staring at your post in disbelief the CR is nothing if not a team first room. [b] DD at least came back and called out Mr. Biden for his complicity as well.[/b]

Didn’t realize this was the Biden thread. Anyone, pub or dem, that lied in order to get us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people deserves to be called out for it. I know you’re a big advocate for holding both sides accountable.

Edited October 18, 2021 by hobbes2702

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

50 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Didn’t realize this was the Biden thread. Anyone, pub or dem, that lied in order to get us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people deserves to be called out for it. I know you’re a big advocate for holding both sides accountable.

 

[Blotto 23434]

56 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

This led me to the following article regarding Powell's time in Vietnam. The ultimate source is Vietnam magazine, whatever that is. Some interesting context on his time spent early in his military career.

https://www.historynet.com/colin-powell-the-vietnam-war-years.htm

My views on career officers that rise to the top ranks of the military is that all of them have signed off on some shady shit, and you don't get any higher than Powell did as a four-star general, commander of the U.S. Army Forces Command, and ultimately chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I just don't think he was wired to step out of his lane as Secretary of State. The president made his decision, and Powell ran with his marching orders. He seems content not only with his actions, but to let others judge him as they see fit.

[Goredho 17349]

6 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea what the fuck. He wasn’t duped. He lied to the world and it cost thousands of people their lives.

Fuck cancer and RIP but we shouldn’t pretend about him simply because he passed.

I personally am remembering him somewhat fondly as a Republican who conducted themselves with dignity and a respect for our democracy.  He was wrong about Iraq.  Good people died there for no good reason.  But I don't think he intentionally misled the nation for purely selfish reasons.  Contrast that with Dotard, who intentionally deceived the populace about COVID-19 to attempt to save his re-election and resulting in a mountain of corpses --  a deception that we are still struggling to correct to this day.

That intent, or lack thereof, makes all the difference.

[RomaVicta 29793]

4 hours ago, RPM said:

RIP to a great military leader. What Dubya and Friends forced him to do at the UN was unforgivable and stained an otherwise impeccable resume.

Powell claimed that he personally vetted his speech to the UN. Do you really think W and Cheney could steamroll Powell?

The Iraq War is the worst foreign policy decision/deception of this century. We destroyed a country that was not a threat to us, negligently shoved thousands upon thousands of US military personnel through the grinder of war, slaughtered civilians, and enslaved this country to a massive material cost. 

You don't callously consign Americans to war through lies and appeals to emotion and come out looking good at the end. Sorry. For all of Powell's notable achievements, getting involved in a useless war is his legacy. 

Washington Post

Quote

During the war and during the Islamic State militant group’s occupation of as much as a third of the country in recent years, the number of deaths runs into the hundreds of thousands, including civilians killed as a result of violence and, more broadly, those who died because of the collapse of infrastructure and services in Iraq resulting from the ongoing conflict.

Our war policy is generally stupid, needlessly brutal, and serves little to no benefit to the long term good of the United States.

Halliburton and other contractors made out nicely, I suppose. Then there's the lost pallets of cash tracked by a company operating out of a suburban house in California that somehow just can't explain where the money went.

When they tell you we're going to fight a guy as bad as Hitler (again and again and again), check your wallet because it's likely a huge money grab.

I didn't wish Powell dead. There's a tragic element in such a man being part of such a murderous policy. I won't participate in a eulogy for any leader made filthy by that policy.

 

[RomaVicta 29793]

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

The sitting president comes to mind. When he voted for the war he was Chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.

He knew.

The Dem capitulation on that policy was maybe their lowest point in all the time I've been a voter. I'd rather lose my seat in Congress than tamely comply with a murderous policy that I know is wrong.

And I won't argue that it would have happened anyway. That's not an excuse for embracing a moral, mortal wrong. I think I voted for Kucinich once in the primaries because he voted against the measure untying Bush's hands.

[RomaVicta 29793]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What war crimes? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and a whole lot of others bear more responsibility for the Iraq war than Powell. (Toss in John Yoo for torture.) Why do so many around here want to blame Powell? He wasn’t part of the inner circle. He was a fall guy. I’ve read a dozen books or more about the Bush/Cheney administration and the Iraq war and none of them advance the position that Powell knowingly lied. You cited an article in The Intercept, a source I’ve never found to be credible.

I don’t know what Tenet was thinking. I’ve seen speculation that he was just so happy to be kept on by Dubya that he went along with the game. The Iraq war was going to happen even if 9/11 never did. It wasn’t a failure of intelligence. There were voices in the CIA who knew Curveball was an unreliable source. Do you know about the Office of Special Plans? Do you know about the pre-9/11 architects of the Iraq war like Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle? What about Ahmed Chalabi who the Bush administration had originally picked to lead Iraq before his corruption charges came out? If I cared enough, I could post 305 links from my old “The New War on Iraq” folder, none of which claim that Colin Powell knowingly lied. He was lied to. 

Colin Powell was duped by this guy?

I've followed the news on this war from the time it was a twinkle in W's eye. Anybody paying any attention knew the disingenuity of Bush and co. constantly alluding (We never said outright!) that Iraq was tied to 9/11. You don't think Powell recognized that?

There was a complete public deception campaign stoking fear of non-existent WMDs and fanning the rage for vengeance. It was a neo-Con wet dream and splendid opportunity for fat cats to dip their paws into the public trough.

To argue Powell was blind to this is to call him an idiot. He says he regrets making the speech. If he's not an idiot then he knew well enough what he was doing.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

How ironic.  Hope you add that phrase to every thing you post about “honest” Democrats.

 

Awww.....fuck you too honey bunny

 

 

 

 

 

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

3 hours ago, Goredho said:

I personally am remembering him somewhat fondly as a Republican who conducted themselves with dignity and a respect for our democracy.  He was wrong about Iraq.  Good people died there for no good reason.  But I don't think he intentionally misled the nation for purely selfish reasons.  Contrast that with Dotard, who intentionally deceived the populace about COVID-19 to attempt to save his re-election and resulting in a mountain of corpses --  a deception that we are still struggling to correct to this day.

That intent, or lack thereof, makes all the difference.

 

not as bad as DotaRD.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

A little refresher. Wtf happened to Dick Cheney?

You want to denigrate Colin Powell? Fine. Everyone of you who ever voted for George W. Bush can go straight to hell too and I don’t care if you’ve reformed since then.

I voted for Gore. There’s no blood on my hands.

[InkaUtexas 25520]

31 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A little refresher. Wtf happened to Dick Cheney?

You want to denigrate Colin Powell? Fine. Everyone of you who ever voted for George W. Bush can go straight to hell too and I don’t care if you’ve reformed since then.

I voted for Gore. There’s no blood on my hands.

Not defending Bush or Powell, but might want to look at the impact of US/UN sanctions on Iraq under the Clinton and Gore Administration. Yes it was UN sanctioned, but we enforced it. Gore's hands are not clean. 

 

[hobbes2702 12846]

45 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A little refresher. Wtf happened to Dick Cheney?

You want to denigrate Colin Powell? Fine. Everyone of you who ever voted for George W. Bush can go straight to hell too and I don’t care if you’ve reformed since then.

I voted for Gore. There’s no blood on my hands.

It’s not denigrating someone to be honest about them fully even in death.  Dick Cheney is one of the worst people involved in American politics in the last 100 years.
That doesn’t change that Colin Powell is partly responsible for worst foreign policy disaster this country has seen since Vietnam. 

Again I hope he rests in peace. I hope those who died partly because of things he did can as well.

[David Dennison 18659]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A little refresher. Wtf happened to Dick Cheney?

You want to denigrate Colin Powell? Fine. Everyone of you who ever voted for George W. Bush can go straight to hell too and I don’t care if you’ve reformed since then.

I voted for Gore. There’s no blood on my hands.

I'll own it. I voted for W. in 2000.

That was the last election in which I voted for a Republican.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

5 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Not defending Bush or Powell, but might want to look at the impact of US/UN sanctions on Iraq under the Clinton and Gore Administration. Yes it was UN sanctioned, but we enforced it. Gore's hands are not clean.

Remember when George HW Bush didn’t enforce the no-fly rules to include helicopters and Saddam used them to mow down Shiite rebels in their efforts to overthrow him?

Clinton/Gore inherited Bush’s conflict in Iraq (and Somalia). They played the hands they were dealt.

Bing West, co-author of Trump’s erstwhile Sec. of Defense Jim Mattis’ book, published a book titled The Wrong War that was solely devoted to criticizing Clinton for not invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein. I think history has proven him wrong. I don’t get placing any blame on Clinton/Gore or the outsized criticism of Powell. He ranks pretty low on the list of people who should be criticized for the Iraq war, imo. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Oil is a hell of a drug. 

[WillUSAF 226]

I had the honor of meeting Gen Powell once. He was soliders solider. He did have the stain of Iraq, which he deeply regretted, but he was a great American. While I only served under him for my first 2 years it was an honor. He will be greatly missed. RIP General

[hpslugga 4044]

9 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

A little refresher. Wtf happened to Dick Cheney?

You want to denigrate Colin Powell? Fine. Everyone of you who ever voted for George W. Bush can go straight to hell too and I don’t care if you’ve reformed since then.

I voted for Gore. There’s no blood on my hands.

I’ve seen this video posted as if he changed tunes. What this video serves as is an indictment of the imperial mentality that is pervasive on both sides of the aisle, but certainly his side of the aisle. He’s sitting there speaking as if it was just a given that the US had the right to just waltz into Iraq (or any country) and overthrow the government. Never mind the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilian deaths that would inevitably follow, never mind that there’s no legal basis for using military force to overthrow a civilian government; his only concern was “too many players in the game, not worth that many dead American soldiers.” That’s about as cold and callous as it gets, fundamentally no different than Kissinger’s “anything that flies on anything that moves.”

As to Powell, as someone already said, there are a lot of bad actors in that administration but he was certainly way down the list. The guy in the video was #1.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

I’ve seen this video posted as if he changed tunes. What this video serves as is an indictment of the imperial mentality that is pervasive on both sides of the aisle, but certainly his side of the aisle. He’s sitting there speaking as if it was just a given that the US had the right to just waltz into Iraq (or any country) and overthrow the government. Never mind the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilian deaths that would inevitably follow, never mind that there’s no legal basis for using military force to overthrow a civilian government; his only concern was “too many players in the game, not worth that many dead American soldiers.” That’s about as cold and callous as it gets, fundamentally no different than Kissinger’s “anything that flies on anything that moves.”

As to Powell, as someone already said, there are a lot of bad actors in that administration but he was certainly way down the list. The guy in the video was #1.

I’’d put Cheney at #2 right behind his boss GWB “The Decider.”

[HenryJames 65890]

[Guest Lobo]

The more he shits on the military, the more his base eats it up.  

Like apple flavored horse paste for the dark and muted soul

[WillUSAF 226]

22 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Trumps mom should have swallowed.....

[Macanudo 12928]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Is that real?   It can't be real.  

 

Bwahahaha.  It is.

[jimmyjazz 45560]

Donald Trump continues to act as if he was against the invasion of Iraq.  He was not.

Quote

When radio host Howard Stern asked Trump in September 2002 if he is “for invading Iraq,” Trump responded, “Yeah, I guess so. I wish the first time it was done correctly.”

 

Trump lies . . . chapter 274

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

I also hope he dies someday (sooner rather than later).  Benevolent  media treatment is optional so long as the dying part happens. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

10 hours ago, David Dennison said:

I'll own it. I voted for W. in 2000.

That was the last election in which I voted for a Republican.

same. and never, ever again

[RomaVicta 29793]

7 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Remember when George HW Bush didn’t enforce the no-fly rules to include helicopters and Saddam used them to mow down Shiite rebels in their efforts to overthrow him?

Clinton/Gore inherited Bush’s conflict in Iraq (and Somalia). They played the hands they were dealt.

Bing West, co-author of Trump’s erstwhile Sec. of Defense Jim Mattis’ book, published a book titled The Wrong War that was solely devoted to criticizing Clinton for not invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein. I think history has proven him wrong. I don’t get placing any blame on Clinton/Gore or the outsized criticism of Powell. He ranks pretty low on the list of people who should be criticized for the Iraq war, imo. 

You're arguing that Powell is not the architect or principle proponent of the invasion thus he shouldn't be held responsible. I agree that he wasn't the priniciple proponent, but surely you will concede that his efforts to get support for the invasion was key to getting what sparse international support we got.

His presentation swayed the people of the United States. If he thought the invasion was a bad idea, that disgraces him profoundly. Even if he thought the invasion was a good idea, he is to be held accountable for that policy.

He wasn't a low level national security adviser merely executing orders.

I would not obey an order that demanded I lie to promote a policy that I foresaw as against our national interests and which would result in hundreds of thousands of needless deaths. It's what I personally predicted about the invasion which I vehemently opposed. And, I'm not a pacifist.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

5 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You're arguing that Powell is not the architect or principle proponent of the invasion thus he shouldn't be held responsible. I agree that he wasn't the priniciple proponent, but surely you will concede that his efforts to get support for the invasion was key to getting what sparse international support we got.

His presentation swayed the people of the United States. If he thought the invasion was a bad idea, that disgraces him profoundly. Even if he thought the invasion was a good idea, he is to be held accountable for that policy.

He wasn't a low level national security adviser merely executing orders.

I would not obey an order that demanded I lie to promote a policy that I foresaw as against our national interests and which would result in hundreds of thousands of needless deaths. It's what I personally predicted about the invasion which I vehemently opposed. And, I'm not a pacifist.

When the head of the CIA tells you that the intelligence is a “slam dunk,” you’re not lying. There is no evidence that Powell knew what he was saying at the U.N. was patently false. None. When Dick Armitage says Powell knew it was a lie then I’ll believe Powell knew it was a lie. 

[Goredho 17349]

17 hours ago, David Dennison said:

I'll own it. I voted for W. in 2000.

That was the last election in which I voted for a Republican.

Same.

[hobbes2702 12846]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

When the head of the CIA tells you that the intelligence is a “slam dunk,” you’re not lying. There is no evidence that Powell knew what he was saying at the U.N. was patently false. None. When Dick Armitage says Powell knew it was a lie then I’ll believe Powell knew it was a lie. 

Powell privately doubted the intelligence and then presented it to the world as if there was no doubt. That’s called lying

[jimmyjazz 45560]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Powell privately doubted the intelligence and then presented it to the world as if there was no doubt. That’s called lying

I don't even know why this is in question.

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

My favorite was when we bombed the only infant formula factory in Iraq and he said it was really a biological weapons factory which, of course, it was not. 
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/fogofwar/vignettes/v4.htm

[horn4life 3755]

I take a more nuanced view of Powell's stain.  

WITHOUT Powell's reputation Cheney knew there was no way to sell attacking a country that simply did not attack us.  I could cynically mention that Halliburton was about to shit the bed and make Cheney's a LOT less wealthy, but I believe it was mostly arrogance.  I think Cheney and Rumsfeld honestly believed they could reshape the Middle East.  They fed Powell a lot of VERY questionable intelligence (when talking about going to war and burning a couple trillion) and Powell and his vastly superior reputation sold the fallacy to the world.

I think a lot of what he did was simply following chain of command.  

Overall I think you can say that Powell was honorable man, who was duped, and admitted as much.  He pointed out the early rise of re-surging racism with the baseless attacks launched by folks like Trump and gleefully embraced by folks like McConnell against Obama.  Powell stood and told the truth on the unAmerican drift his party was taking. Something he always knew was there but that he felt had hopefully passed by.  

Ultimately I view Powell as a principled man who served his country.  Which used to be considered a fine legacy by nearly everyone.

[Shady Ray 1633]

As a young associate fresh out of law school, I had the good fortune of working for a partner who cut his teeth prosecuting the My Lai atrocities.

He had absolutely nothing positive to say about Colin Powell and his role in covering up that stain on our national reputation. In fact, his opinion of Powell is not fit to be repeated.

Colin Powell may have rehabilitated his own reputation by acting as the diverse face of empire, but for many involved in the actual heroic act of defying political pressure and attempting to bring war criminals within our own ranks to justice, Powell was seen as a piece of shit all too happy to play the part.

I hope he made peace with the role he played before passing away. RIP.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Shady Ray

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

16 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

My favorite was when we bombed the only infant formula factory in Iraq and he said it was really a biological weapons factory which, of course, it was not. 
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/fogofwar/vignettes/v4.htm

fuck those kids!

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:23 PM, hobbes2702 said:

Powell privately doubted the intelligence and then presented it to the world as if there was no doubt. That’s called lying

No it’s not. It’s called doubt. For the last time, he made Tenet sit behind him for a reason. 

[hobbes2702 12846]

8 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No it’s not. It’s called doubt. For the last time, he made Tenet sit behind him for a reason. 

So they could lie together 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

So they could lie together 

yup. I don't get hero worship of anyone in the military, much less Powell. He might have been a man of conviction who was put in a bad place; but then again, a man of conviction would never allow himself to get into that position in the first place. A WHOLE LOT of people died because of his lies. End of story. That's his legacy. No amount of whitewashing (pun intended?) will remove that stain. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

9 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No it’s not. It’s called doubt. For the last time, he made Tenet sit behind him for a reason. 

This is a shitty premise to hang your hate on. 

[bullet 1596]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:52 AM, hobbes2702 said:

Yea what the fuck. He wasn’t duped. He lied to the world and it cost thousands of people their lives.

Fuck cancer and RIP but we shouldn’t pretend about him simply because he passed.

Nobody lied about WMD.  They thought it was true and so they honestly believed really flimsy questionable evidence, like all the idiots who believed Trump colluded with Russia, called white supremacists good people at Charlottesville, bad mouthed dead soldiers and all the other idiotic stuff many of you believed.

[bullet 1596]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:44 PM, RomaVicta said:

Powell claimed that he personally vetted his speech to the UN. Do you really think W and Cheney could steamroll Powell?

The Iraq War is the worst foreign policy decision/deception of this century. We destroyed a country that was not a threat to us, negligently shoved thousands upon thousands of US military personnel through the grinder of war, slaughtered civilians, and enslaved this country to a massive material cost. 

You don't callously consign Americans to war through lies and appeals to emotion and come out looking good at the end. Sorry. For all of Powell's notable achievements, getting involved in a useless war is his legacy. 

Washington Post

Our war policy is generally stupid, needlessly brutal, and serves little to no benefit to the long term good of the United States.

Halliburton and other contractors made out nicely, I suppose. Then there's the lost pallets of cash tracked by a company operating out of a suburban house in California that somehow just can't explain where the money went.

When they tell you we're going to fight a guy as bad as Hitler (again and again and again), check your wallet because it's likely a huge money grab.

I didn't wish Powell dead. There's a tragic element in such a man being part of such a murderous policy. I won't participate in a eulogy for any leader made filthy by that policy.

 

We were already at war with Iraq.  They were firing at our planes over Kurdistan every week.  Sooner or later they would hit one and take pilots hostage.  Sadaam had bribed top officials in Russia, Germany and France and so the embargo was disentegrating.  Sadaam was one of the most dangerous and crazy leaders of the last 50 years.  Sanctions were falling apart and oil prices were going up.  A Sadaam with money was very dangerous.  He fired Scuds at Israel.  He gassed the Kurds.  He wasn't like Qaddafi who behaved once Reagan bombed his houses and killed some of his family.  He was a flat out dangerous nut.  Iraq was the right war at the right time even if the intelligence on WMD was garbage.  It was mishandling the peace in the aftermath that cost all the lives.  The war was done flawlessly.  The peace was a disaster.  Nation building was a disaster.  Promoting sectarian differences was a disaster.  Then Obama pretended none of those problems existed and let ISIS take over 1/3 of Iraq and 1/2 of Syria.  Once the war was over there were mistakes aplenty for years.

[Macanudo 12928]

11 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Powell and Bush have been critical of Trump. They both have / had far too much class and wisdom to get into a verbal spat with Trump or any of his idiot minions. 

I believe you either meant self-preservation or cowardice.

[F250 28691]

10 hours ago, bullet said:

Iraq was the right war at the right time even if the intelligence on WMD was garbage.  It was mishandling the peace in the aftermath that cost all the lives.  The war was done flawlessly.  The peace was a disaster. 

How the fuck do you separate the two?

 

[hpslugga 4044]

13 minutes ago, F250 said:

How the fuck do you separate the two?

 

You’re responding to a quote that’s clearly indicative a truly degenerate mind. We shouldn’t be wasting time responding to people whose values are such that they can justify the fucking invasion of Iraq. That’s about as depraved as it is possible to be.

Edited October 22, 2021 by hpslugga