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No thread about those missionaries kidnapped in Haiti?

Parliament

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31438

Posted
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11 hours ago, RPM said:

They're there to convert.

That's somewhat true.  There are missionaries that do no proselytizing at all.  They "convert" by attraction to what they have and demonstrate by service to their fellow man.  Most of the mainstream Protestant missions are like this.

A family friend, a doctor, used to do an annual mission trip to Haiti through the church to deliver and prescribe eyeglasses.  They didn't even usually have any sort of minister with them.  No preaching, all service.  I doubt that he would have gone in these conditions, had he been alive.

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Harrison Bergeron

Harrison Bergeron 1798

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23 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

Patriotism is at an all time low now but damn.  We don’t let terrorists take our people.  These folks were out trying to do good.  

You forget today the "greater good" is virtue signaling on social media behind your gated community not actually getting your hands dirty.

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F250

F250 28764

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47 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

Patriotism is at an all time low now but damn.  We don’t let terrorists take our people.  These folks were out trying to do good.  

They are not terrorists. Terrorists are promoting a political goal through their actions. These people are straight up kidnappers. If you read some of the interviews with previous hostages they describe the kidnappers and guards as a type of "Squid Game" guards that are also prisoners to the faction that controls a particular territory in Haiti.

Framing the kidnappers as Al Queada is a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

With that said, the CAM organization knew kidnapping was at an all time high in Haiti and previously suspended their mission for 9 months in Haiti because of the craziness. Then continued their mission and for a fucked up reason took children to Haiti despite all of the warnings that no one should travel to Haiti.

 

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F250

F250 28764

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

You forget today the "greater good" is virtue signaling on social media behind your gated community not actually getting your hands dirty.

CAM is a pacifist organization. Part of their mission in the event of a draft is to provide draft dodgers refuge. The use of force is anthima to their mission. There is a reason they emphasize that the kidnappers are creations of God in their daily message.

The missionaries don't worship American Jesus.

 

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Helobious

Helobious 9450

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1 hour ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

Patriotism is at an all time low now but damn.  We don’t let terrorists take our people.  These folks were out trying to do good.  

It’s not a foreign government, it’s a gang of criminals that did this. I’d wager more than 17 Americans got kidnapped or killed just in the past few hours here in a America. No commotion about them. I’d say you send some negotiators out there to try & secure a release. Obviously paying the ransom is out of the question. But going all out seal team 6 for them is pretty dumb. They went there on their own accord. It’s just a shitty situation. 

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MNLonghornFUKM

MNLonghornFUKM 8817

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People who engage in very high risk activities shouldn’t have the expectation that Seal Team Six is going to save the day if things go south.

Ok so what if it’s domestic? Instead of staying on interstate, the wife of a friend of a friends of my cousins uncle had her gps on her phone going through St. Louis . To save 1/100th of a gallon of gas, they diverted off interstate. They ended up in downtown east St. Louis and were the only ones on the road. Can they call seal team 6 then?
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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

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9 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:


Ok so what if it’s domestic? Instead of staying on interstate, the wife of a friend of a friends of my cousins uncle had her gps on her phone going through St. Louis . To save 1/100th of a gallon of gas, they diverted off interstate. They ended up in downtown east St. Louis and were the only ones on the road. Can they call seal team 6 then?

Need to wait until they get into Alton. 

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Bevo

Bevo 13567

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17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:


Ok so what if it’s domestic? Instead of staying on interstate, the wife of a friend of a friends of my cousins uncle had her gps on her phone going through St. Louis . To save 1/100th of a gallon of gas, they diverted off interstate. They ended up in downtown east St. Louis and were the only ones on the road. Can they call seal team 6 then?

I don't think that is  job for Seal Team 6. But, if you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10087

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The Mennonites and Christian Aid Ministries are far down the list of objectionable groups. They bring medicine and work on physical infrastructure work and do not tie it up with proselytizing or conversion efforts. 
 
Even if you think the adults  were stupid to go there and their religion is dumb, there’s an eight month old with them that some gang leader is threatening to shoot in the head. 
Why would you take a child or pregnant woman to Haiti or any questionable country?

I detest when people hide their stupidity behind religion. God gave you a highly functional brain and the ability to rationalize. Use it.

Don't drag God into your bullshit.

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TXSG8R

TXSG8R 3362

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10 hours ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

Patriotism is at an all time low now but damn.  We don’t let terrorists take our people.  These folks were out trying to do good.  

I think that line of thinking is part of the problem.  The US military isn’t there to bail out everyone that waltzes into a bad situation expecting a rescue because ‘Murica. I know movies have trained us to believe that ST6 can roll into any situation and leave a pile of bad guy bodies in their wake with all the hostages alive, but that’s not reality. A rescue attempt is very likely going to result in a bunch of dead missionaries. 

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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11134

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Well it's hard to have sympathy for this dumb group of people. How anyone can condone religious leaders ignoring child sex abuse for years is beyond me. I still don't understand how anyone can be part of the Roman Catholic church, but this is a much smaller group of people and they should have done something. They knew about this guy abusing their own children and family members decades ago, but continued to keep him around. Then he gets to go to Haiti and abuse 30+ more kids there because they don't want to turn him in and make him accountable for his crimes.

These people have a lot of nerve going back there after bringing a child predator for years. This group clearly has some issues with making good decisions.

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/341344364

In 2019 this group had an employee convicted of child sex abuse of 30 boys while he was working in Haiti. They have paid out $420,000 in settlements to the victims. Most small charities would be bankrupted by a 420k loss, but somehow not this one.

From one article:
"Two of its own managers were placed on leave earlier this year amid revelations they knew as early as 2013 that Mast had confessed to "sexual activity with young men," yet had kept him on the job.

Christian Aid Ministries has workers in several countries and receives support from conservative Anabaptist groups."

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

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I had a crazy evangelical uncle who would go on trips like this.  You know what he didn’t do despite being batshit crazy?  He didn’t take his fucking kids with him because he knew it was dangerous.  The earlier poster who said that if these people make it home alive that CPS should be waiting at the gate was absolutely correct.  The kids are also the only thing that makes me think the government should maybe do something.  The adults fucked around and are finding out.  To add to that, if there is some government led effort to rescue them, we should send them a bill for the cost of the mission.

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Samson's Wig

Samson's Wig 3191

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The number of people defaulting to the position of "these are bjust decent folks just trying to help" need to wake up.  Dutchrudder outlined some good info above.  CAM is anything but good people just looking to help.  If we could rescue the kids and leave the adults to rot, I'd be all for that.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus -- I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally understood as certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens. Where was Morris's protection, or anybody else on that airplane? Where was the retribution for the families, and where is the warning to the rest of the world that Americans shall walk this Earth unharmed, lest the clenched fist of the most mighty military force in the history of mankind comes crashing down on your house?!

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Walser

Walser 1109

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2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus -- I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally understood as certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens. Where was Morris's protection, or anybody else on that airplane? Where was the retribution for the families, and where is the warning to the rest of the world that Americans shall walk this Earth unharmed, lest the clenched fist of the most mighty military force in the history of mankind comes crashing down on your house?!

Not sure if serious. That was always a pleasant fiction.

There should be no ransom paid. I guess if the ministry raises enough money somehow the US Govt may not be able to stop them, but the ransom should not be paid.

What is the move by the kidnappers? Are they going to just murder them if no ransom materializes? I'm not advocating calling a bluff as a flex. Never paying ransom is just smart policy. If the kidnappers kill the hostages they get nothing, ever. The US should NOT be trying to rescue dipshits and risk further lives but I have no problem with Munich-style punitive actions. Bounty made and their lives will be even more brutish and short and they know that.

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Parliament

Parliament 14243

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It's a quote from the West Wing.

And definitely don't pay a ramsom.  You'll only make all the other missionaries and similar do-gooders a target.  You chose to go to a dangerous place.  Wait for the Americans to secure your release and/or send in Seal Team 6.  And pray alot. 

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25863

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Yeah, only large corporations get that benefit

No, Us small groups do as well. But we play by the rules, coordinate our programs with the said Embassy, and listen to what they say. We also carry Oh Shit insurance which bites us in the margins. Right now I have a team member in Somalia, Guinea, El Salvador and Tigray. None are fun places and we expect zero help if shit goes wrong. 

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5541

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Posted

there are a group of 3 or 4 from a small community not far from here, short story on the news last night. Typical church group interview - praying, and god takes care of all. I truly feel horrible for the kids that are taken on these trips by parents who have no idea what is going on in someplace like Haiti

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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27598

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus -- I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally understood as certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens. Where was Morris's protection, or anybody else on that airplane? Where was the retribution for the families, and where is the warning to the rest of the world that Americans shall walk this Earth unharmed, lest the clenched fist of the most mighty military force in the history of mankind comes crashing down on your house?!

What about John Birch? 

"

When the Japanese surrendered, Birch led a routine mission to discover how far south the Chinese Communists had penetrated. His group bumped into a Chinese Communist force. As the scene has been reconstructed, Birch argued violently with the Communist officer who wanted to disarm him. Birch was seized and shot after his hands had been tied. The Communists then bayoneted him at least 15 times and tossed his body on a heap of junk and garbage.

"In the confusing situation," said Krause last week, "my instructions were to act with diplomacy. Birch made the Communist lieutenant lose face before his own men. Militarily, John Birch brought about his own death."

 

This isn't the first bunch of citizens that have gotten sideways far from home. 

Paul was a Roman citizen too. He still got locked up. 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

Posted
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31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

No, Us small groups do as well. But we play by the rules, coordinate our programs with the said Embassy, and listen to what they say. We also carry Oh Shit insurance which bites us in the margins. Right now I have a team member in Somalia, Guinea, El Salvador and Tigray. None are fun places and we expect zero help if shit goes wrong. 

What does a kidnapping and ransom policy run in Somalia these days?

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25863

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

What does a kidnapping and ransom policy run in Somalia these days?

about 3.50 a day. 

Serious, our policies run from about 800-1500 a week depending on the person going in and what security we set up. ISOS has this market covered. I turn dtown a lot of short term projects if the client won't carry the insurance. 

When I run a long term project I don't carry it since it is built in with security teams, etc. Plus we have Evac insurance which is not that bad. 

if you need a quote I got a French dude who can set you up. 

Edited by InkaUtexas
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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

Posted
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1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

about 3.50 a day. 

Serious, our policies run from about 800-1500 a week depending on the person going in and what security we set up. ISOS has this market covered. I turn dtown a lot of short term projects if the client won't carry the insurance. 

When I run a long term project I don't carry it since it is built in with security teams, etc. Plus we have Evac insurance which is not that bad. 

if you need a quote I got a French dude who can set you up. 

Evac is cheap.  I had no idea on the kidnapping stuff.  I would’ve guessed more than that.  Thankfully I have no need, just have an insurance background and was curious.

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25863

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Evac is cheap.  I had no idea on the kidnapping stuff.  I would’ve guessed more than that.  Thankfully I have no need, just have an insurance background and was curious.

Yeah, it is. Every tourist should carry it. But nah, we have plans in place when designing projects in shitty places. I am planning a 5 person expat team for 1 year into Northern Somali (the easy part) right now and doubt we will add kidnap. We will have some mean as fuck SF dudes there though. Development done right is effective, but it can be a challenge. 

An interesting case study is what happened to all the Total Subcontractors working in Northern Mozambique last year. They were left high and dry. Sucked for a lot of them. 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yeah, it is. Every tourist should carry it. But nah, we have plans in place when designing projects in shitty places. I am planning a 5 person expat team for 1 year into Northern Somali (the easy part) right now and doubt we will add kidnap. We will have some mean as fuck SF dudes there though. Development done right is effective, but it can be a challenge. 

An interesting case study is what happened to all the Total Subcontractors working in Northern Mozambique last year. They were left high and dry. Sucked for a lot of them. 

5 years ago I got a pretty comprehensive travel insurance policy for a southern African trip that included a whole bunch of shit I didn’t need for $60 for my wife and I.  But it covered me if a lion or great white shark bit off my arm and I needed to be airlifted somewhere, and would’ve covered getting me back home once I was stabilized.  I probably wouldn’t take out that policy on a trip to Germany.  YMMV.

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MNLonghornFUKM

MNLonghornFUKM 8817

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there are a group of 3 or 4 from a small community not far from here, short story on the news last night. Typical church group interview - praying, and god takes care of all. I truly feel horrible for the kids that are taken on these trips by parents who have no idea what is going on in someplace like Haiti

I’d like to see their risk/reward benefits that was written up on a white board before they embarked on this journey
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HoustonFrog

HoustonFrog 368

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Posted
Yeah, it is. Every tourist should carry it. But nah, we have plans in place when designing projects in shitty places. I am planning a 5 person expat team for 1 year into Northern Somali (the easy part) right now and doubt we will add kidnap. We will have some mean as fuck SF dudes there though. Development done right is effective, but it can be a challenge. 
An interesting case study is what happened to all the Total Subcontractors working in Northern Mozambique last year. They were left high and dry. Sucked for a lot of them. 

Develop what?
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Nivek

Nivek 16923

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Posted
On 10/23/2021 at 8:24 AM, NoRagrets said:

What a bunch of surly assholes.

We need to get these people back and give our special forces some live fire training. Important that we send a message that fucking with Americans is always a bad idea (jeans).

I was just thinking that our military folks need more practice.  It has been what, 2 months since we bombed someone?  

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Blotto

Blotto 23488

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Posted

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/16/1064842364/haiti-kidnapped-missionaries-released-free

Quote

All of the 17 members of a missionary group who had been held hostage in Haiti are free, exactly two months after they were kidnapped by a Haitian gang.

Ohio-based Christian Aid Ministries said on Thursday that the 12 remaining hostages had been freed. The first two were released on Nov. 21, and three more were released last Monday.

There were 16 Americans and one Canadian in the group. It included five children, with the hostages ranging in age from 8 months old to 48.

 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28775

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https://www.10tv.com/mobile/article/news/local/ohio/ohio-missionary-group-press-conference-kidnapped-missionaries-return-home-from-haiti/530-5cc9107f-8867-4987-858e-ad708968a3c6

Quote

Church agency: Captive missionaries made daring escape from Haiti kidnappers

OHIO, USA — Captive missionaries in Haiti found freedom last week by making a daring overnight escape, eluding their kidnappers and walking for miles over difficult, moonlit terrain with an infant and other children in tow, according to Christian Aid Ministries. 

Officials with the Ohio-based agency detailed their journey to safety in a press conference Monday.

A total of 17 people from the missionary group — 12 adults and five minors — were abducted Oct. 16 shortly after visiting an orphanage in Ganthier, in the Croix-des-Bouquets area, where they verified it had received aid from CAM and played with the children, CAM has said. 

The group included 16 Americans and one Canadian.

Their captors from the 400 Mawozo gang initially demanded millions of dollars in ransom. Five other captives had earlier reached freedom. It is still unclear if any ransom was paid.

The 12 who fled last week carried the infant and 3-year-old, wrapping the baby to protect her from the briars and brambles, said CAM spokesman Weston Showalter.

“After a number of hours of walking, day began to dawn and they eventually found someone who helped to make a phone call for help,” he said, his voice beginning to choke. “They were finally free.”

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TexasEd

TexasEd 8066

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Posted
On 10/26/2021 at 4:45 PM, crash_davis said:

imma go to somalia to help the poor. and then when i get kidnapped, imma plea for the US gubment to come save me from my own stupid choice. 

sound about right?

Isn't that the plot of the three that walked into Iran?

https://www.npr.org/2014/03/14/289779717/3-americans-jailed-in-iran-tell-their-saga-in-sliver-of-light

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