Alec Baldwin Shoots and Kills Cinematographer, Wounds Director

[jimmyjazz 45914]

33 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I view the armorer as no different than a firearm instructor at a shooting range.  Their job is safety first, and foremost I'd think (hope).  This incident IS the rare time it happens, but that there was already a track record of safety issues, they didn't think to maybe just be a bit more cautious because of that ?    

I'm sorry, but I think 99% of the people who post here on Surly would probably try to exercise a bit more caution if they were in a similar, unique situation like that.  It's not job responsibility it's just common sense, cautious precaution. 

. . . and this is not what the "I GREW UP AROUND GUNZ NEVER EVER EVER ACCEPT A GUNZ W/O CHECKING IT FIRST" idiots are saying.  They are saying this particular accident highlights an inherent safety issue in the film industry.  It doesn't.  It's the exception that proves the rule.

[immortal13 4059]

8 minutes ago, Skipper said:

When this guy is the voice of reason and calling you out as an idiot, and everyone agrees with him, you should probably post less.

"Everyone" as in cloak roomers? How will I ever live down rhe shame lol

[immortal13 4059]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

. . . and this is not what the "I GREW UP AROUND GUNZ NEVER EVER EVER ACCEPT A GUNZ W/O CHECKING IT FIRST" idiots are saying.  They are saying this particular accident highlights an inherent safety issue in the film industry.  It doesn't.  It's the exception that proves the rule.

Too bad your dad wasn't firing blanks

[77horn 216]

Quote

but for better or worse, baldwin the actor was not part of the problem.  he should not be checking the gun nor should he be expected to, especially if he's not an experienced gun user. 

Quote

The gun went off when AB was rehearsing a cross draw of the gun while the DP and director were setting up the shot. There was no indication that he was pointing the gun directly at the camera and pulling the trigger.

I understand that the actor is not expected to ensure the gun is totally safe.  And that AB was practicing a cross draw without any intention of aiming and firing. 

But it seems to me that any actor who is going to handle a real gun, that will have real ammunition (even blanks) should have a minimum level of safety training.  Like trigger discipline and being able to verify whether the safety is engaged or not.

Edited October 26, 2021 by 77horn

[burntorangebongos 10710]

They chain of possession was breached and it seems by the AD. The armorer was NOT with the weapon cart, and she did NOT confirm with the AD that the weapon was cold. The protocol requires opening the cylinder and checking each round in it. The AD confirms that they are blanks by listening to the bbs or seeing the crimp. Then the armorer hands the weapon to the actor and the AD yells cold gun after this process.

Instead, the armorer wasn't present and the AD for some unknown reason grabbed a weapon, did not inspect it and told the actor cold gun. This action was the fatal mistake.

The actor relied on the AD following protocol. That very morning, people walked off the set due to safety concerns. So my question is, did AB know that? Why did AB  pull the trigger when rehearsing the cross draw toward a camera lens without a shield where people were? 

If anything, he was too trusting of his co-workers to do their jobs properly and too into the rehearsal to hold off from pulling the trigger until filming when maybe they would have put the shield up. The biggest crime everyone on this set committed including the dead lady was believing the armorer and AD follow proper protocol as it should be followed. This is very sad and now a mom doesn't get to go home to her kid and an old fat man has to live with the guilt of being the guy that pulled the trigger after being told it was safe on a low budget set with issues.

[Da Fino 2781]

I'm still shocked that live rounds found a way anywhere near that set. Completely unacceptable. 

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

So all of this to maybe get to:

the armorer didn’t secure her cart- and apparently didn’t clear the firearm after using it for live fire before placing it back in the cart  

the first ad took a weapon from the cart without checking it with the armorer and probably without checking it at all

the actor had no muzzle discipline, possibly no trigger discipline, probably because he believed he was holding a cold gun that was properly checked

yes?

 

if you tell me that the last one is an accepted practice on movie sets because of the protocols in place, I’ll believe it but I still don’t think that should be the practice. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[bad_teammate 13195]

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

if you tell me that the last one is an accepted practice on movie sets because of the protocols in place, I’ll believe it but I still don’t think that should be the practice. 

Why? When is the actor supposed to practice the motion?

An actor is trying to look as natural and proficient and smooth as possible with the weapon. They need to practice moving it and using it, not just at a range but before the shot. They'll need multiple takes.

There's no reason to go against the existing protocol; the existing protocol works.

This happened because the existing protocol wasn't followed.

[burntorangebongos 10710]

Due to the fact that the incident happened, this is the likely reason why 2 people ended up shot. The AD's actions to me are the most egregious. If he had an issue with who they hired as armorer, he should have still followed the protocol of checking each round in the cylinder to confirm it was a cold gun. To yell cold gun by not doing the proper procedure is almost diabolical.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

33 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

So all of this to maybe get to:

the armorer didn’t secure her cart- and apparently didn’t clear the firearm after using it for live fire before placing it back in the cart  

the first ad took a weapon from the cart without checking it with the armorer and probably without checking it at all

the actor had no muzzle discipline, possibly no trigger discipline, probably because he believed he was holding a cold gun that was properly checked

yes?

 

if you tell me that the last one is an accepted practice on movie sets because of the protocols in place, I’ll believe it but I still don’t think that should be the practice. 

Yep, if it's standard practice I'm surprised we haven't had more incidents. That's really what this boils down to.  A single 30 second step that ensures an actor they're holding an empty weapon. I'd sure as shit wanna know that.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[burntorangebongos 10710]

The chain of custody was breached, the checking the rounds by the expert was not done and that is why this is a rare incident. The actor is not expert nor the one who should check rounds. But I would like to think that an actor would have the good sense to rehearse in a way where he is not pointing towards people or when there is not a shield. In this case, because this was likely a live round, it would have penetrated the shield anyway. At least, I believe it was live, I dont know that this was confirmed yet but the rumors of using the weapons for target practice  in off hours makes it possible.

 

 

 

[bad_teammate 13195]

17 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

But I would like to think that an actor would have the good sense to rehearse in a way where he is not pointing towards people or when there is not a shield.

Where, on a movie set, are there not people?

Visualize the scenario in your mind.

[Guest Lobo]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Where, on a movie set, are there not people?

Pixar?

[bad_teammate 13195]

39 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Due to the fact that the incident happened, this is the likely reason why 2 people ended up shot. 

So add extra rules to a procedure list they were ignoring anyway?

[0xdeadbeef 1651]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

Dude quit trying to CR up this thread. And you're fucking wrong. I don't care whose job it is, if someone hands you a firearm, you should inspect it in a safe manner(ie not fucking pointed at anyone). I'm not pulling a fucking trigger on any gun that I do not know 100% what is in it.......OR some other qualified person(since Alec Baldwin is an ignorant rube) could have checked the gun IMMEDIATELY before it was handed to AB. Blank rounds are noticeably different than an actual live round. This could have easily been avoided.

Quick, what are these?

Answer: Inert Movie rounds:  https://detroitammoco.com/product/inert-9mm-dummy-rounds/

Sometime you need Ammo to look real.  "Blanks" is a generic term, I have no idea what type ammo the script called for using.

 

[Guest Lobo]

I have noticed that in certain shows, the "blanks" look wildly different.  When Del is loading his handgun in the series premiere of "Ozark", there is something off about them.  I don't know it was the post sound-editing that didn't mesh up correctly, but it sounds/looks weird the way he's fidgeting with them as he loads.  Maybe it's to show his focus as he's also issuing death sentences to the men gathered in the warehouse.  I dunno.  Could be for effect.  

[MrBig 5397]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, no he has a weapon in his hands, there's a record of lax safety protocol on the set., An extra 30 seconds to verify it was indeed safe was not something that should be considered outlandish or not his job.  More deflection from the basic issue of verifying the weapon was  safe.

If you and your wife were swapping cars in the driveway, would you make her check all the fluids to make sure the car was in working order? Cars can be lethal weapons too. 

[mchookem 16330]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

Because the people in this thread you are referencing are clearly Cloak Roomers incapable of logic or critical analysis.

oh, you mean Daily Texan-ers. got it.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, MrBig said:

If you and your wife were swapping cars in the driveway, would you make her check all the fluids to make sure the car was in working order? Cars can be lethal weapons too. 

Uhh, not even close to a relevant analogy.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[immortal13 4059]

18 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

Quick, what are these?

Answer: Inert Movie rounds:  https://detroitammoco.com/product/inert-9mm-dummy-rounds/

Sometime you need Ammo to look real.  "Blanks" is a generic term, I have no idea what type ammo the script called for using.

 

From an internet pic, no

[Captainant 27660]

16 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I have noticed that in certain shows, the "blanks" look wildly different.  When Del is loading his handgun in the series premiere of "Ozark", there is something off about them.  I don't know it was the post sound-editing that didn't mesh up correctly, but it sounds/looks weird the way he's fidgeting with them as he loads.  Maybe it's to show his focus as he's also issuing death sentences to the men gathered in the warehouse.  I dunno.  Could be for effect.  

purpose-built blank-firing guns have built-in barrel blockages and only accept blank rounds which DO look different - no projectile and a cap or crimp on the end. You can fire blanks out of a real gun too, but it probably wouldn't cycle the action 

https://bolandfx-com.3dcartstores.com/blankammunition

So from the back it would look like a normal round

Edited October 26, 2021 by Captainant

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

19 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

Quick, what are these?

Answer: Inert Movie rounds:  https://detroitammoco.com/product/inert-9mm-dummy-rounds/

Sometime you need Ammo to look real.  "Blanks" is a generic term, I have no idea what type ammo the script called for using.

 

Even more reason to check them as you're handing them to someone so it can be verified they're not live rounds.

[burntorangebongos 10710]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

So add extra rules to a procedure list they were ignoring anyway?

I didn't word that well. I think the colossal fuck up was mostly all the AD's fault. The actor has no responsibility for what a weapon he is handed is loaded with.  But it wouldn't add any hard training for a armorer to advise them not to point the weapon towards anyone without the shield and definitely don't pull the trigger if there isn't one present. If this production wasn't using a shield at all during filming then that is fucked up, imo. Holy shit if that is the case.

The other thought was facing a wall from a good distance but you could be right that it wasn't feasible on their set to rehearse that way. 

If things are done right and an actor is instructed on rehearsal and filming safety, then this tragedy wouldn't have happened.

 

[DDD Dad 14338]

49 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I have noticed that in certain shows, the "blanks" look wildly different.  When Del is loading his handgun in the series premiere of "Ozark", there is something off about them.  I don't know it was the post sound-editing that didn't mesh up correctly, but it sounds/looks weird the way he's fidgeting with them as he loads.  Maybe it's to show his focus as he's also issuing death sentences to the men gathered in the warehouse.  I dunno.  Could be for effect.  

Spoiler that shit!

[DDD Dad 14338]

39 minutes ago, MrBig said:

If you and your wife were swapping cars in the driveway, would you make her check all the fluids to make sure the car was in working order? Cars can be lethal weapons too. 

Something something, checked her fluids last night.

Wait, you said swapping cars.  Never mind.

[Deej 76767]

45 minutes ago, MrBig said:

If you and your wife were swapping cars in the driveway, would you make her check all the fluids to make sure the car was in working order? Cars can be lethal weapons too. 

Always assume your wife's car is low on fluids.

[Armybrat 40839]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

So all of this to maybe get to:

the armorer didn’t secure her cart- and apparently didn’t clear the firearm after using it for live fire before placing it back in the cart  

the first ad took a weapon from the cart without checking it with the armorer and probably without checking it at all

the actor had no muzzle discipline, possibly no trigger discipline, probably because he believed he was holding a cold gun that was properly checked

yes?

 

if you tell me that the last one is an accepted practice on movie sets because of the protocols in place, I’ll believe it but I still don’t think that should be the practice. 

That seems to be the case, but the haters who think AB should face a criminal charge of any kind are off base, IMO.

The Armorer and the AD could be though.

But even the herd of Surly lawyers can’t predict what the Arizona DA is gonna do.

 

[bad_teammate 13195]

3 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

But it wouldn't add any hard training for a armorer to advise them not to point the weapon towards anyone without the shield and definitely don't pull the trigger if there isn't one present.

I would guarantee that actors are told exactly that, but accidents happen anyway. 

[MrBig 5397]

24 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Something something, checked her fluids last night.

Wait, you said swapping cars.  Never mind.

This isn’t the Urban Meyer thread. 

[burntorangebongos 10710]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I would guarantee that actors are told exactly that, but accidents happen anyway. 

My understanding is an armorer stops filming or rehearsal if the weapon isn't handled per their instructions and safety is a concern. When a weapon is out of their custody, their role is to birddog it and control safety. This is why the reports of her not being present is odd, if true.

 

[HouTex 1867]

So do they know who left, or put, a live round in the chamber? It ought to be easy to figure out.

[huge 3793]

It was a freak accident that was preventable.

And for some of you:

 

[Deej 76767]

47 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

My understanding is an armorer stops filming or rehearsal if the weapon isn't handled per their instructions and safety is a concern. When a weapon is out of their custody, their role is to birddog it and control safety. This is why the reports of her not being present is odd, if true.

 

She may have been busy checking her Instagram.

[Guest Lobo]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

purpose-built blank-firing guns have built-in barrel blockages and only accept blank rounds which DO look different - no projectile and a cap or crimp on the end. You can fire blanks out of a real gun too, but it probably wouldn't cycle the action 

https://bolandfx-com.3dcartstores.com/blankammunition

So from the back it would look like a normal round

I never stopped to think about how many ammo tips look like anuses.  Explains a lot.

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

Ani?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, MrBig said:

If you and your wife were swapping cars in the driveway, would you make her check all the fluids to make sure the car was in working order? Cars can be lethal weapons too. 

I topped off her fluids last night, bro

[Deej 76767]

3 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I topped off her fluids last night, bro

Can you top off something that is already overflowing?

[hayden_horn 11362]

jesus mary. some of yall. 

i'm very fucking tempted to move this thread to cloak room too.

[Bill Brasky 1446]

[Deej 76767]

 

[MissingInAction 25064]

If yall don't cut this squabbling out im sending dick pics to everyone.

[Js1 85320]

17 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

If yall don't cut this squabbling out im sending dick pics to everyone.

[Deej 76767]

17 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

If yall don't cut this squabbling out im sending dick pics to everyone.

So, does "everyone" mean Nicole?

[MissingInAction 25064]

3 minutes ago, Deej said:

So, does "everyone" mean Nicole?

 

[burntorangebongos 10710]

[immortal13 4059]

Too bad that dumbfuck didn't shoot himself

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, MissingInAction said:

If yall don't cut this squabbling out im sending dick pics to everyone.

So ya got a micro lens huh ?

[MissingInAction 25064]

21 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So ya got a micro lens huh ?

Fish eye.

[Archer 474]

[Brisketexan 105119]

Ok….see….THIS is the content we come here for.