Alec Baldwin Shoots and Kills Cinematographer, Wounds Director

[Dutchrudder 11069]

My understanding is an armorer stops filming or rehearsal if the weapon isn't handled per their instructions and safety is a concern. When a weapon is out of their custody, their role is to birddog it and control safety. This is why the reports of her not being present is odd, if true.
 

There was a podcast from last year interviewing her about being an armorer for movies, and after listening to it, I did not get the feeling she possesses the necessary stoic respect for firearms that I would want to see in someone dealing with weapons. Maybe it's hindsight guiding my opinion, but it didn't sound to me like someone who took it super seriously.

[Nivek 16688]

They always fuck you in the drive-through. 

This is the way.

[WhatTheBuck 28615]

This scene (and all like it) wouldn’t work if the actors both pointed their weapons at the ground. I’m amazed by how many people, both online and in the media, are shouting, “You never point a gun at someone!” It’s a movie. The whole point of using guns in movies and tv, 99.9% of the time, is to pretend to be shooting them at other people. That’s the whole point. You can’t make a western, or a war movie, or a crime drama, without someone having to point a gun at someone else  

 

[Buzzrock 14785]

Quick, what are these?

Answer: Inert Movie rounds:  https://detroitammoco.com/product/inert-9mm-dummy-rounds/
Sometime you need Ammo to look real.  "Blanks" is a generic term, I have no idea what type ammo the script called for using.
 

Alec Baldwin would know the difference.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

19 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Alec Baldwin would know the difference.

I know you’re being sarcastic, but he would most certainly not.  I wouldn’t know what the difference was, and even more reason to say hey, can we verify these are blanks ?  If you have any sense of the potential danger involved.

3 (alleged) previous safety issues on the set, and several crew members had walked off the set because of safety concerns. 

A little cautious, common sense should have kicked in with everyone involved in that scene. Should anyone expect that caution  ?
 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Nivek 16688]

I know you’re being sarcastic, but he would most certainly not.  I wouldn’t know what the difference was, and even more reason to say hey, can we verify these are blanks ?  If you have any sense of the potential danger involved.
3 (alleged) previous safety issues on the set, and several crew members had walked off the set because of safety concerns. 
A little cautious, common sense should have kicked in with everyone involved in that scene. Should anyone expect that caution  ?
 
 

Hypothetical Incoming: Maybe then the AD or actor would then face backlash from having double checked the work of a young female armorer.


It seems that these protocols work just fine ordinarily but that there were a series of lapses in judgement which then made the procedures moot. Such as having live ammunition on set, and not locked away.

[Captainant 26927]

10 minutes ago, Nivek said:

as having live ammunition on set

IMO this is the "original sin" in this tragedy. There is ZERO reason for live ammo to be anywhere near a movie set, and whoever brought it into the set should share in the culpability and negligence

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4962]

I understand that existing protocols are supposed to work, but this incident clearly indicates that they don't work well enough. This was apparently the fourth live round that somehow got fired on that set. How many live rounds are negligently fired on movie sets that we don't hear about, especially low budget indie type sets? We certainly wouldn't have heard about it had he not hit anybody.

Clearly an actor must be able to point a weapon at other people and pull the trigger. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to make a ton of different types of movies, or cinematographers and directors wouldn't have as much freedom to frame shots how they like.

An extra set of trained eyes to check safety on a life critical process will always make things safer. Since Hollywood is mostly a union outfit, it would not be hard for the SAG to set up required yearly or whatever training certification courses for all actors who handle firearms on set. A simple half day course could easily teach normal gun safety, as well as hollywood specific stuff like the difference between live rounds, dummy rounds, and blanks.

Dummy rounds should have a colored primer that differs from live or blank rounds to make them easier to visually verify. For semi automatic firearms, the certified actor could be handed the weapon with the bolt or slide locked back and a full magazine. They could then easily verify the round type before inserting the magazine and releasing the bolt or slide. Revolvers can be easily checked by looking at the front of the cylinder and either opening the loading gate and rotating the cylinder or popping the cylinder out. Tubular magazines should be loaded in front of the actor by the armorer.

That would be very simple to implement and would add an extra step of safety to avoid incidents like this. Alec Baldwin has done enough movies with firearms that if this had been industry practice the cinematographer would still be alive. In the swiss cheese model of safety, this would essentially add another slice of cheese to the model and further reduce the chances of the holes lining up.

I don't fault Baldwin for this, and it really does suck for him and everyone involved. But there are clearly some industry practices that can be tweaked.

Also, I'm not sure some people on here understand how single action revolvers work. You have to pull the hammer back to the cocked position in order to pull the trigger. If you are doing or practicing a quick draw, you have to upholster the weapon and point it at the target while cocking the pistol and firing it at the precise moment it comes on target. Any mistiming of the trigger pull means that the gun is pointed somewhere else. Cross draw makes the muzzle point at an arc across the room instead of more up and down. It's pretty dangerous to practice, but necessary to make a convincing scene. All the more reason to add extra layers of protection.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

IMO this is the "original sin" in this tragedy. There is ZERO reason for live ammo to be anywhere near a movie set, and whoever brought it into the set should share in the culpability and negligence

Yep, how that was allowed to happen is mind bottling.

[Fud 9522]

https://www.thewrap.com/rust-armorer-inexperience-hannah-gutierrez-fired-nicolas-cage-film/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking_news_5702530s

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Fud said:

https://www.thewrap.com/rust-armorer-inexperience-hannah-gutierrez-fired-nicolas-cage-film/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking_news_5702530s

So you hate women huh ?

[Buzzrock 14785]

https://www.thewrap.com/rust-armorer-inexperience-hannah-gutierrez-fired-nicolas-cage-film/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking_news_5702530s

“The best part about my job is just showing people who are normally kind of freaked out by guns how safe they can be and how they’re not really problematic unless put in the wrong hands.”

[shadow_operative 15931]

1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I understand that existing protocols are supposed to work, but this incident clearly indicates that they don't work well enough.

 

yes, this total anomaly *clearly* proves that the 99.999% success rate of these protocols just isn't good enough. 🙄 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

25 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So you hate women huh ?

Awwww poor little shadow operative... feewings hurt ?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative said:

 

yes, this total anomaly *clearly* proves that the 99.999% success rate of these protocols just isn't good enough. 🙄 

3 previous incidents on the set, and crew members walking off the set because of safety concerns yeah everything was well within specs.  Facts not a big deal here at all I guess.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

....dp.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[F250 28524]

Onboard morning drinking these days?

 

[DDD Dad 14076]

This thread reminds me of the GOT thread on TOS.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, F250 said:

Onboard morning drinking these days?

 

Nah, too early for drinking. Just some weed, and 3 cups of coffee as I sit on ocean front at the the Outer banks for the next 2 months, remote working....

Edited October 27, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[immortal13 4059]

6 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

This scene (and all like it) wouldn’t work if the actors both pointed their weapons at the ground. I’m amazed by how many people, both online and in the media, are shouting, “You never point a gun at someone!” It’s a movie. The whole point of using guns in movies and tv, 99.9% of the time, is to pretend to be shooting them at other people. That’s the whole point. You can’t make a western, or a war movie, or a crime drama, without someone having to point a gun at someone else  

 

Umm yeah we get that. My understanding is that he wasn't shooting the scene at the time but was practicing his "quick draw" at the time of the incident, so yeah he could have and should have been pointing the gun in a safe direction. Unfortunately for the victims, Alec Baldwin is a dumbfuck

 

[Nivek 16688]

1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I understand that existing protocols are supposed to work, but this incident clearly indicates that they don't work well enough. This was apparently the fourth live round that somehow got fired on that set. How many live rounds are negligently fired on movie sets that we don't hear about, especially low budget indie type sets? We certainly wouldn't have heard about it had he not hit anybody.

Clearly an actor must be able to point a weapon at other people and pull the trigger. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to make a ton of different types of movies, or cinematographers and directors wouldn't have as much freedom to frame shots how they like.

An extra set of trained eyes to check safety on a life critical process will always make things safer. Since Hollywood is mostly a union outfit, it would not be hard for the SAG to set up required yearly or whatever training certification courses for all actors who handle firearms on set. A simple half day course could easily teach normal gun safety, as well as hollywood specific stuff like the difference between live rounds, dummy rounds, and blanks.

Dummy rounds should have a colored primer that differs from live or blank rounds to make them easier to visually verify. For semi automatic firearms, the certified actor could be handed the weapon with the bolt or slide locked back and a full magazine. They could then easily verify the round type before inserting the magazine and releasing the bolt or slide. Revolvers can be easily checked by looking at the front of the cylinder and either opening the loading gate and rotating the cylinder or popping the cylinder out. Tubular magazines should be loaded in front of the actor by the armorer.

That would be very simple to implement and would add an extra step of safety to avoid incidents like this. Alec Baldwin has done enough movies with firearms that if this had been industry practice the cinematographer would still be alive. In the swiss cheese model of safety, this would essentially add another slice of cheese to the model and further reduce the chances of the holes lining up.

I don't fault Baldwin for this, and it really does suck for him and everyone involved. But there are clearly some industry practices that can be tweaked.

Also, I'm not sure some people on here understand how single action revolvers work. You have to pull the hammer back to the cocked position in order to pull the trigger. If you are doing or practicing a quick draw, you have to upholster the weapon and point it at the target while cocking the pistol and firing it at the precise moment it comes on target. Any mistiming of the trigger pull means that the gun is pointed somewhere else. Cross draw makes the muzzle point at an arc across the room instead of more up and down. It's pretty dangerous to practice, but necessary to make a convincing scene. All the more reason to add extra layers of protection.

I think they should paint the entire back of the casing a different color not just the primer.  Of course, they will hire a colorblind armorer on the next set.....

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4962]

24 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

 

yes, this total anomaly *clearly* proves that the 99.999% success rate of these protocols just isn't good enough. 🙄 

If you took every potentially task that a worker would do in any other major industry and said that there is a .001% chance that this will kill someone that would be completely unacceptable. There is no such thing as "good enough" when it comes to safety. When an accident or incident occurs in most industries, there is an investigation with root cause analysis. If that analysis determines that there are easy to implement safety measures that could prevent another incident, then they are implemented, regardless of whether proper procedures were followed. You should always count on human error.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4962]

4 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I think they should paint the entire back of the casing a different color not just the primer.  Of course, they will hire a colorblind armorer on the next set.....

True. They should paint them green, so there is no mistaking it. That should be dark enough for even a colorblind person. With modern technology correcting it in post should be no big deal.

[jimmyjazz 45206]

42 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Umm yeah we get that. My understanding is that he wasn't shooting the scene at the time but was practicing his "quick draw" at the time of the incident, 

Seems to me it should be pretty easy to create a dimensionally accurate, weight accurate dummy gun for all of the movement training.  I've worked on exactly one film in my life, with zero guns involved, so I have no idea if such things exist.  I assume they do.

And yeah, live rounds on a film set . . . that's nuts.

[immortal13 4059]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Seems to me it should be pretty easy to create a dimensionally accurate, weight accurate dummy gun for all of the movement training.  I've worked on exactly one film in my life, with zero guns involved, so I have no idea if such things exist.  I assume they do.

And yeah, live rounds on a film set . . . that's nuts.

I agree. Not trying to act like a gun expert "know it all", and I realize the gun has to be pointed at the person when shooting the scene(s), but if AB was just practicing then common sense should have told him to aim the gun in a direction that was free of people. My dad is a retired Army Colonel, so muzzle awareness and trigger discipline were ingrained in me from a very early age. Baldwin just seems to be a fucking moron

Edited October 27, 2021 by immortal13

[Captainant 26927]

25 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I agree. Not trying to act like a gun expert "know it all", and I realize the gun has to be pointed at the person when shooting the scene(s), but if AB was just practicing then common sense should have told him to aim the gun in a direction that was free of people. My dad is a retired Army Colonel, so muzzle awareness and trigger discipline were ingrained in me from a very early age. Baldwin just seems to be a fucking moron

IMO, Baldwin the actor isn't at fault here. The people responsible for safety on the set told him it was "cold" meaning no blanks or anything in it. 

[smuggs 9313]

You can use phony guns or Airsoft guns and create CGI gun blasts complete with muzzle flash, cycling actions and ejecting shell casings with Adobe After Effects. This dude has a tutorial where it took him roughly 20 minutes to create the gunfire below. He also offers his own software pack for $99 that includes a shit ton of stock gun fire effects that he already created, that are licensed and ready for use. I'm sure there are a million other similar software tools out there.

This whole situation with "is this gun hot or cold?" is so fucking pointless and stupid. RIP to the woman who lost her life because of the dumbass shenanigans at every turn.

 

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/create-realistic-muzzle-flashes-in-after-effects/

 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

IMO, Baldwin the actor isn't at fault here. The people responsible for safety on the set told him it was "cold" meaning no blanks or anything in it. 

Legal culpability maybe not depending on his status as an owner or operator of the production co. I simply would not rely on anyone to tell me the condition of a weapon without seeing it for myself.  For exactly the reason the woman is now dead. 

[bad_teammate 13022]

17 minutes ago, smuggs said:

You can use phony guns or Airsoft guns and create CGI gun blasts complete with muzzle flash, cycling actions and ejecting shell casings with Adobe After Effects. This dude has a tutorial where it took him roughly 20 minutes to create the gunfire below. He also offers his own software pack for $99 that includes a shit ton of stock gun fire effects that he already created, that are licensed and ready for use. I'm sure there are a million other similar software tools out there.

This whole situation with "is this gun hot or cold?" is so fucking pointless and stupid. RIP to the woman who lost her life because of the dumbass shenanigans at every turn.

 

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/create-realistic-muzzle-flashes-in-after-effects/

 

 

or just follow pre-existing safety protocols that are extremely effective and not have to muck around with unnecessary post-production (also, lol @ the ejector on the mp5)

[immortal13 4059]

38 minutes ago, smuggs said:

You can use phony guns or Airsoft guns and create CGI gun blasts complete with muzzle flash, cycling actions and ejecting shell casings with Adobe After Effects. This dude has a tutorial where it took him roughly 20 minutes to create the gunfire below. He also offers his own software pack for $99 that includes a shit ton of stock gun fire effects that he already created, that are licensed and ready for use. I'm sure there are a million other similar software tools out there.

This whole situation with "is this gun hot or cold?" is so fucking pointless and stupid. RIP to the woman who lost her life because of the dumbass shenanigans at every turn.

 

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/create-realistic-muzzle-flashes-in-after-effects/

 

 

Hey, Alec is on a budget here!!

[immortal13 4059]

43 minutes ago, Captainant said:

IMO, Baldwin the actor isn't at fault here. The people responsible for safety on the set told him it was "cold" meaning no blanks or anything in it. 

Agree to disagree 

[henrygandorf 28873]

40 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I simply would not rely on anyone to tell me the condition of a weapon without seeing it for myself.

well this is an interesting point i had not considered yet.  could you please expound on this?

honestly i cannot believe it took a week to get to such a revelation.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

well this is an interesting point i had not considered yet.  could you please expound on this?

honestly i cannot believe it took a week to get to such a revelation.

Sarcasm will get you nowhere.

[henrygandorf 28873]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sarcasm will get you nowhere.

but repetition keeps you warm at night.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

but repetition keeps you warm at night.

Keep your fingers in your ears. Don't wanna hear common sense precautions, especially when there was already verified safety issues on the set.

[DDD Dad 14076]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Keep your fingers in your ears. Don't wanna hear common sense precautions, especially when there was already verified safety issues on the set.

were

[WhatTheBuck 28615]

1 hour ago, smuggs said:

You can use phony guns or Airsoft guns and create CGI gun blasts complete with muzzle flash, cycling actions and ejecting shell casings with Adobe After Effects. This dude has a tutorial where it took him roughly 20 minutes to create the gunfire below. He also offers his own software pack for $99 that includes a shit ton of stock gun fire effects that he already created, that are licensed and ready for use. I'm sure there are a million other similar software tools out there.

This whole situation with "is this gun hot or cold?" is so fucking pointless and stupid. RIP to the woman who lost her life because of the dumbass shenanigans at every turn.

 

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/create-realistic-muzzle-flashes-in-after-effects/

 

 

Hand it over to CGI and you’ll get into an arms race where every movie has to have muzzle flashes that are longer and wider than in the one before. 

[smuggs 9313]

@henrygandorf  I need your input:  is post-production really going to cost you anymore than paying an armorer's wages to provide their services on set everyday? I'm talking about adding muzzle blast effects to a handful of scenes in a shitty low budget western, not Andy Serkis cave dweller FX.

[henrygandorf 28873]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Keep your fingers in your ears. Don't wanna hear common sense precautions, especially when there was already verified safety issues on the set.

so because of previous safety concerns, alec baldwin should've bypassed the protocol and inspected the rounds himself.  got it.  you win all the internet points for being the 40th person to say exactly what you said.  hopefully a new batch of folks will wander in later today and you and immortal can drop more pearls of wisdom.

i find that with new material, you really wanna work it out repeatedly on new audiences to get your act sharp.  dying is easy, comedy is hard.

[henrygandorf 28873]

1 minute ago, smuggs said:

@henrygandorf  I need your input:  is post-production really going to cost you anymore than paying an armorer's wages to provide their services on set everyday? I'm talking about adding muzzle blast effects to a handful of scenes in a shitty low budget western, not Andy Serkis cave dweller FX.

i don't think this aspect is really about cost.  and when i say aspect, i mean in movies in general, not specifically this production.  some directors will always want the real thing, just like some directors refuse to work with green screens, certain scale models, etc.

and even if you're fixing it in post, you'll still have guns on your set, which will require an armorer.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

were

Yes, were... and that grammatical error is the most important factor here.

[DDD Dad 14076]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, were... and that grammatical error is the most important factor here.

It certainly was to me.

[henrygandorf 28873]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

It certainly was to me.

[David Dennison 17800]

I just wish someone would train actors that when they fire rifles or shotguns they should act like there is a kick. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by David Dennison

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4962]

20 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Hand it over to CGI and you’ll get into an arms race where every movie has to have muzzle flashes that are longer and wider than in the one before. 

Can a muzzle flash create a sweet lens flare?

 

Also, what jobs other than Hollywood Actor and Child Soldier require the use of firearms but not instruction in how to use them safely? Why is there so much resistance to the idea that actors should no how to do their job when it comes to guns and gun safety? Obviously the existing safety protocols didn't work and somebody is dead. But no need to be safer than we already are(n't)!

[Dutchrudder 11069]

There's just no point in the filming of a movie where live ammunition should be on premise. None. Target practice is not what you do on movie sets for fun, do it at a range. 

Storing live ammunition on set is wrong. Storing it in the same cabinet as blanks is negligent and completely asinine. 

Armorer lady should face 3rd degree murder / manslaughter charges. Assistant director handing the "cold" gun to Adam should probably too.  That all comes down to the chain of custody on the weapon. 

[DDD Dad 14076]

There's just no point in the filming of a movie where live ammunition should be on premise. None. Target practice is not what you do on movie sets for fun, do it at a range. 
Storing live ammunition on set is wrong. Storing it in the same cabinet as blanks is negligent and completely asinine. 
Armorer lady should face 3rd degree murder / manslaughter charges. Assistant director handing the "cold" gun to Adam should probably too.  That all comes down to the chain of custody on the weapon. 

Has it been confirmed that it was a live round that caused this?

[David Dennison 17800]

3 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

There's just no point in the filming of a movie where live ammunition should be on premise. None. Target practice is not what you do on movie sets for fun, do it at a range. 

Storing live ammunition on set is wrong. Storing it in the same cabinet as blanks is negligent and completely asinine. 

Armorer lady should face 3rd degree murder / manslaughter charges. Assistant director handing the "cold" gun to Adam should probably too.  That all comes down to the chain of custody on the weapon. 

[smuggs 9313]

5 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i don't think this aspect is really about cost.  and when i say aspect, i mean in movies in general, not specifically this production.  some directors will always want the real thing, just like some directors refuse to work with green screens, certain scale models, etc.

and even if you're fixing it in post, you'll still have guns on your set, which will require an armorer.

Yeah I should have also quoted @bad_teammate  when he said "unnecessary post-production". If something were to come out of this like a banning of functioning firearms on movie sets, then the post-production part would become necessary. It seems like the cost benefit is currently in favor of the guy sitting at a Mac adding muzzle blasts anyway, vs. the daily on set presence of an armorer.

[Deej 76218]

4 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If you are doing or practicing a quick draw, you have to upholster the weapon

An upholstery gun?