Alec Baldwin Shoots and Kills Cinematographer, Wounds Director

[Frank The Tank 1438]

11 hours ago, Foosters said:

To all of you criminal law experts on this thread, can you point to some examples of bosses and executives being charged with involuntary manslaughter for the careless actions of their employees based on a theory of negligence in the hiring of that employee?

Because to me, it sounds like a lot of you are using concepts that exist within civil liability and trying to shoehorn them into criminal law.

I’ve practiced criminal law in Texas for 16 years as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney. I’ve never once seen someone charged with a crime because they hired someone or oversaw an employee that then acted negligently or even committed a crime intentionally or knowingly. But, I admit I know nothing about the laws of the state of New Mexico. 

[RomaVicta 29574]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think you are absolutely correct here and that his being some form of "producer" doesn't legally make him responsible for negligent acts on set as in the case of an employer being responsible for an employee, a principal for its agent, etc.

But, I think you can be relatively certain that at any trial, his title of "producer" will be used against him, or attempted, to show that he had some authority or responsibility to call a halt to obviously negligent operation of the set, along with a bunch of other factoids, like how many times he's been around guns on the set, seen impromptu shooting ranges or plinking sessions going on with props and live ammo, etc.

I would expect that to be explored as it should be. I don't know what his direct observations were or what responsibilities he may have had for those observations. It's just my opinion based on knowledge of filmmaking that it's unlikely he bears any responsibility as a producer. 

My hope, as in all legal matters, is that the jury hears clear arguments, recognizes the relative value of evidence, and returns a just verdict.

[RomaVicta 29574]

12 hours ago, Texzilla58 said:

Most folks would try to help their victims in this case. He left it for others to deal with.

You don't know what you would do. There are medical specialists on a set. She wasn't lying there bleeding out as Baldwin stepped outside to check his hair in a mirror. 

Some much stupid speculation and assumption. He's not a monster, he's a person just like anybody. Nobody knows for sure what they would do. I won't judge the actions of someone traumatized as he must have been.

 

[RomaVicta 29574]

11 hours ago, Augustus said:

It's just as likely, in my opinion, that Baldwin's a narcissist and his immediate reaction was "oh shit how's this going to impact me, I need to walk away and think about this."

But there's no way to know.  If I accidentally blew somebody's head off I'd probably be pretty irrational for a bit.

Have you even met Baldwin?

[TwiceHorn 30850]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

I would expect that to be explored as it should be. I don't know what his direct observations were or what responsibilities he may have had for those observations. It's just my opinion based on knowledge of filmmaking that it's unlikely he bears any responsibility as a producer. 

My hope, as in all legal matters, is that the jury hears clear arguments, recognizes the relative value of evidence, and returns a just verdict.

Yes, correct, as noted by two posts above, there's no "vicarious liability" in criminal law where, for example, an employer is automagically liable for the negligent acts of an employee.

In this particular criminal case, they will be arguing something similar to most civil negligence cases, and that is that Baldwin's actions violated a standard of care and I am relatively confident that the prosecution will attempt to use his title as producer as something to demonstrate that perhaps he knew more or should have been more careful than the average actor.

The average actor probably gets a pass on this.  Baldwin, for various reasons, including his experience as an actor and ostensible control over aspects of the production, is not. What a jury does with it will be interesting.

[speed817 18917]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

It does get a chuckle out of me how all the most gun-ho posters in this thread that are incensed over AB don't seem to care much about other forms of gun violence ongoing in the country ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

They hate AB because has spoken out against the NRA and other gun rights activists.  This is the reason my BIL loves that this is happening...

[Gene Parmesan 3953]

10 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You don't know what you would do. There are medical specialists on a set. She wasn't lying there bleeding out as Baldwin stepped outside to check his hair in a mirror. 

Some much stupid speculation and assumption. He's not a monster, he's a person just like anybody. Nobody knows for sure what they would do. I won't judge the actions of someone traumatized as he must have been.

 

Bullshit.  The next thing my dad taught me after he taught me to never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them, and to treat every weapon you handle as loaded, is how to help the victim that you inadvertently shoot.   

[Dutchrudder 11056]

5 minutes ago, speed817 said:

They hate AB because has spoken out against the NRA and other gun rights activists.  This is the reason my BIL loves that this is happening...

If I were his lawyer, I would use that as part of his defense.

"Your honor, my client HATES guns, he doesn't like them, doesn't use them, barely knows how to use guns, so how could he be responsible for a shooting??? That does NOT make sense!!! He is not responsible for checking the weapon, since he doesn't know the difference between a bullet or a blank or even a potato. He can't possibly be held liable for this tragedy, because he didn't know what he was doing. How can you convict him if he doesn't know what he's doing? That does NOT make sense! Much like a Wookie living on Endor, that does NOT make sense! Unless maybe Ewoks are kinda like midget Wookies, and maybe Chewy is kinda kinky, I guess that could make sense, but it's still kinda gross. Maybe Mala wasn't meeting his needs at home, and he just so happens to land on the Hedonism Moon of the Outer Rim and has some crazy parties after helping save their race. Maybe Chewy just needed some time to go wild and get it out of his system, mix in some Yuzzums and Duloks, and then he's back on the galactic highway with his best buddy Han Solo.  But that all sounds way too farfetched, Chewy loves Mala, Lumpy, Itchy, and would never do anything to hurt them, so it does NOT make sense. I object to the charges against my client, and motion to adjourn for recess."

[RomaVicta 29574]

9 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Bullshit.  The next thing my dad taught me after he taught me to never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them, and to treat every weapon you handle as loaded, is how to help the victim that you inadvertently shoot.   

My father taught me how to remove a bullet using a sharpened quarter and a toothpick then he taught me the proper way to gut a living cow so that I could keep the guy I inadvertently shot warm in the cavity of the dying bovine. 

Everybody on my street knew how to do this. We saved countless accidentally shot passersby!

[Captainant 26914]

51 minutes ago, speed817 said:

They hate AB because has spoken out against the NRA and other gun rights activists.  This is the reason my BIL loves that this is happening...

lmao I must've hit too close to home because my post got deleted, classic surly snowflakes. I'm curious to know what rule I was breaking, and why Im BeInG cEnSorEd!!

Edited January 25, 2023 by Captainant

[Augustus 3061]

11 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Have you even met Baldwin?

No, and that's why I said he may have been utterly distraught, but it's equally possible he could just be a really shitty guy.  I've got no idea.

I'd err on giving him the benefit of the doubt in this situation, but at the same time there's some evidence he's a really shitty human being at times.  I also suppose the same could be said of any of us.

So it's all idle speculation.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Augustus

[Augustus 3061]

I should also add:  I don't even know that it's true that he just walked out of the church after he shot the victims.  That's why I asked if anyone knew whether that was actually the case.

It could just be an allegation to make him look worse by attorneys for the plaintiffs.

[henrygandorf 28824]

i would guess even a shitty guy wouldn't be able to control his actions after accidentally shooting someone.  it would have to be a really shitty guy who was also a serial killer.  i would even add that since it was completely unexpected, you have to bake that into the reaction.  even if a projectile flew out and shattered a car window, you'd have a "holy shit what the fuck" reaction.

[Augustus 3061]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

i would guess even a shitty guy wouldn't be able to control his actions after accidentally shooting someone.  it would have to be a really shitty guy who was also a serial killer.  i would even add that since it was completely unexpected, you have to bake that into the reaction.  even if a projectile flew out and shattered a car window, you'd have a "holy shit what the fuck" reaction.

No doubt

[Frank Drebin 5361]

[Augustus 3061]

Dude looks like he tied one on last night.  Apparently the charges against him have been downgraded?

Best comment:  SNL is missing a real opportunity if they don't let Trump play a disheveled Alec Baldwin.

[henrygandorf 28824]

fat, angry, confused.  in order to play trump, he must become him.

[Augustus 3061]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:31 AM, Captainant said:

lmao I must've hit too close to home because my post got deleted, classic surly snowflakes. I'm curious to know what rule I was breaking, and why Im BeInG cEnSorEd!!

The fact that you'd characterize it as "hitting too close to home" suggests why it might have been deleted, but I'm just guessing as I don't know what you wrote.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4629]

20 hours ago, Augustus said:

Dude looks like he tied one on last night.  Apparently the charges against him have been downgraded?

The firearm enhancement was dropped, significantly reducing the max jail time. I haven’t been following this too closely, but the prosecutors seem pretty JV based on what I’ve read. And I take offense to their slander of “big-city attorneys” trying to “secure billable hours”!

[Captainant 26914]

Figured I'd bump this thread since there's been many happenings and a prevailing consensus among some in this thread that Baldwin was in major legal peril. The case against him was dropped. The prosecutor who pursued the case initially against him also appears to have been using it as a campaign piece. At least according to her own words in her official email accounts.

Quote

According to the motion and Times reporting, on June 9, 2022, Reeb asked the district attorney to mention that she is assisting in the case because "it might help in my campaign lol."

[GoPokes83 2236]

So you’re saying he’s free to kill again.

[YGIFS 19445]

Well, I very much doubt they do a sequel to a movie they didn't even finish.  So.....

[Herpa Derpa 6089]

3 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Well, I very much doubt they do a sequel to a movie they didn't even finish.  So.....

Filming has already resumed.

https://news.sky.com/story/alec-baldwin-says-hes-grateful-for-support-as-rust-filming-continues-12865915

[YGIFS 19445]

Well, good for the crew relying on the paycheck I guess.  I guess you have to add some line of dialogue to explain why everybody looks three years older, "Ah, these rare desert monsoons will really age a man.  The natives say "3 days of rain is 3 years to the white man's skin."  

[Texzilla58 4687]

Alec finished Supercell in Montana with Anne Heche, probably her last gig. Alec seems to bring death to everyone working with him.

[Red Five 40357]

[Nivek 16684]

Alec finished Supercell in Montana with Anne Heche, probably her last gig. Alec seems to bring death to everyone working with him.

Totally his fault she went out in a flaming car wreck.

[atomheartbevo 89015]

She's toast.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/14/entertainment/rust-shooting-armorer-indictment-response/index.html

Quote

The armorer on the set of the movie “Rust” likely was hungover when she loaded a prop gun used by actor Alec Baldwin that fired a live round of ammunition during a rehearsal, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, prosecutors said in a court filing.

Witnesses told investigators Hannah Gutierrez Reed “was drinking heavily and smoking marijuana in the evenings during the shooting of Rust,” prosecutors said in the Friday filing.

Quote

“It is likely that Defendant Gutierrez was hung over when she inserted a live bullet into a gun that she knew was going to be used at some point by an actor while filming a shooting scene with other actors and crew members,” prosecutors said in the filing in response to a May motion by Gutierrez Reed’s attorneys to dismiss an indictment against her.

Gutierrez Reed will plead not guilty to two counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the October 2021 shooting, an attorney for her has said. Director Joel Souza was injured in the shooting on the New Mexico set.

As for Baldwin, he's still not off the hook

Quote

A final decision on charges against Baldwin would be made before August 8, prosecutors said in the Friday filing.

“The gun and broken sear have been sent to the state’s independent expert for further testing,” the prosecutors said. “If it is determined that the gun did not malfunction, charges against Mr. Baldwin will proceed. The prosecution anticipates making a final charging decision with regard to Mr. Baldwin within the next sixty days.”

At the end of the day, there was never supposed to be any live rounds on the set.

[Texzilla58 4687]

It has been reported this set was a mad house. That crew would get guns out of the armory and target practice on a makeshift range. How does a producer (Baldwin or others on set) allow that shit to go on? And she should have been raising hell about it, having been raised by a lifelong well respected armorer.

[Deej 76197]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

She's toast.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/14/entertainment/rust-shooting-armorer-indictment-response/index.html

As for Baldwin, he's still not off the hook

At the end of the day, there was never supposed to be any live rounds on the set.

[atomheartbevo 89015]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/30/entertainment/rust-gutierrez-reed-cocaine/index.html

Quote

An unnamed witness has said “Rust” film armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed “transferred a small bag of cocaine” after returning from a police interview on the day of the “Rust” fatal shooting, according to a motion filed by prosecutors Thursday.

The new filing comes after prosecutors last week charged Gutierrez Reed with tampering with evidence in relation to the shooting death of the movie’s cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, according to an amended complaint filed last week. The charge is in addition to two counts of involuntary manslaughter filed against Gutierrez Reed earlier this year.

Quote

“The prosecution team has been in contact with a witness (hereinafter referred to as SI) who will testify that the defendant transferred a small bag of cocaine to SI on the evening of October 21, 2021, after the defendant returned from her interview at the police station on the day of the fatal shooting,” a state’s opposed motion to protect the identity of witness read.

Quote

CNN previously reported Gutierrez Reed transferred narcotics to another person “with the intent to prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of herself,” an amended complaint said.

Gutierrez Reed was likely hungover when she loaded a prop gun used by actor Alec Baldwin that fired a live round of ammunition during a rehearsal, prosecutors alleged in a prior court filing.

 

[Texzilla58 4687]

Nothing like toot and ammo to make a party.

[Augustus 3061]

I thought this was over and done with.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alec-baldwin-indicted-manslaughter-charge-rust-shooting-rcna134564

[mchookem 15539]

so the headline is

Quote

Alec Baldwin indicted on involuntary manslaughter charge in 'Rust' shooting

and then the last paragraph says

Quote

The grand jury's indictment comes after the same New Mexico prosecutors dismissed the involuntary manslaughter charges against Baldwin in April.

 

i guess prosecutors can just change their mind?

[staboner 4941]

[Texzilla58 4687]

so the headline is

Alec Baldwin indicted on involuntary manslaughter charge in 'Rust' shooting

and then the last paragraph says

The grand jury's indictment comes after the same New Mexico prosecutors dismissed the involuntary manslaughter charges against Baldwin in April.

 

i guess prosecutors can just change their mind?

They dropped the original charges because they had new evidence to analyze. Guess they found something.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10002]

Not surprising that NM would waste even more time and money and a case it won't win. They appear to still be arguing that it is an actors responsibility to insure no live ammo is involved not trust those on set who are actually in charge of such things.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4962]

From what I'm pulling out of my butt, I seem to recall that the FBI or whoever messed with the gun enough that they managed to get the hammer to drop on a live chamber without the trigger being pulled. I guess they got expert opinions that said the only way that can happen is if they really did screw it up in their investigations. Now, here's the thing with the modifications; there is an entire (small scale) industry devoted to slicking up cowboy style guns for both Hollywood and a sport called Cowboy Action Shooting in which a bunch of old parts dress up like they are in the old west and have shooting completions.  They lighten the hammer springs up a bit, and polish all the surfaces where metal moves against metal.  It makes a fast draw much faster for someone who practices. Hollywood sends their guns out to the same folks, because they also crave that historically inaccurate fast draw. His defense is likely to argue that the action job was done incorrectly and caused the hammer to drop without touching the trigger. Regardless, there is not a single source from any actual armorer from before or just after the incident that says what he did was standard protocol. I ha e found nothing but the opposite. And the law don't care if your SOP's say it's OK to point gun at somebody and pull the trigger. 

 

All that said, he should probably get some sort of plea deal out of this. Punishing people for the sake of punishing them is dumb. 

[shadow_operative2.0 15734]

Quote

A jury has convicted a movie armorer of involuntary manslaughter in the fatal shooting of cinematographer by Alec Baldwin.

The shooting happened during a rehearsal on the set of the Western movie "Rust."

The verdict against movie armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed assigns new blame in the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins in October 2021. An assistant director last year pleaded no contest to negligent handling of a firearm. 

https://www.fox4news.com/news/rust-movie-shooting-jury-convicts-movie-armorer-of-involuntary-manslaughter

[RomaVicta 29574]

Horrible story. Horrible.

[shadow_operative2.0 15734]

Quote

"Rust" armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was sentenced to the maximum penalty of 18 months in prison in a Santa Fe, New Mexico, court Monday for the killing of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter last month.

The judge referenced Gutierrez-Reed's lack of remorse ahead of handing down the sentence.

"Your attorney had to tell the court you were remorseful," she said.

Following the sentence she said, "you were the armorer who stood between a safe weapon and a weapon that could kill someone. For you, she would be alive."

Prosecutors sought the maximum penalty of 18 months in state prison.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer-sentencing-rcna147795

[Lat22 3951]

The negligence of having a live round anywhere near a movie set still blows my mind.

[HouTex 1838]

1 hour ago, Lat22 said:

The negligence of having a live round anywhere near a movie set still blows my mind.

Exactly.  Hell, the guns should not even have a firing pin.

edit:  I suppose they would need a firing pin to shoot the blanks.  But not sure how that works. 

Edited April 16 by HouTex

[Gene Parmesan 3953]

35 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Exactly.  Hell, the guns should not even have a firing pin.

edit:  I suppose they would need a firing pin to shoot the blanks.  But not sure how that works. 

Would need it for blanks.  I would guess in a movie like John Wick where the gun firing is added with VFX those guns are probably disabled from firing in some way.

[ajax 2568]

 

 

[gofuckyourself 8063]

A temper like that?

With that dumb bitch yelling at him on for a full minute...I'd have probably shot her ONE TIME, JUST ONE TIME, ONE TIME.

[mdmost 42459]

Sadly, the dumb cunt got the reaction she wanted. 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21765]

He should have hired someone to follow her around videoing her and asking loudly why are you an ugly cunt ALL THE TIME.

[Helobious 9420]

2 hours ago, ajax said:

 

 

lol at the replies. Pretty much unanimous agreement that the camerawoman is a cunt.

[futureman 22352]

not as bad as the voicemail to his daughter.