2021-2022 Astros Offseason Thread

[The Dog 43771]

less money for a worse team just for an opt-out?

Bad decision IMHO.

 

[David Dennison 18606]

Carlos Correa wanted to play somewhere else, and that's OK.

[HtownHorn 14446]

3 hours ago, BornOrange said:

Correa's deal with Minnesota shows me that he was never going to re-sign with the Astros.

I bet the Astros were willing to give him more than 35 for a one year deal. But the Twins deal gives him insurance if he gets injured or has a bad year.

And the Astros would have given him more than 105 for a 3 year deal. But the Twins deal allows him to re-enter the FA market every year if he wants to.

Correa always was and always will be looking for a huge contract to play in NYC or LA.

Wouldn't be shocked if that is what happens when Turner becomes a FA after this next season. Neither the Yankees nor the Mets are signing Correa.

[tx 3 putt 76159]

3 hours ago, Lat22 said:

We’ll revisit your statement in a year or two. That guy is going to be a Yankee. 

yankees have a strong ss pipeline going 

Edited March 19, 2022 by tx 3 putt

[OB3 3608]

 

[HtownHorn 14446]

1 hour ago, SimonBolivar said:

I know we have a lot of hope in Pena, but the dude has 30 games above A ball in his career. I wish we'd at least act like we planned on contending in the last year or two of our window.

We also have Diaz and Goodrum. Two MLB caliber SSs. Diaz has a career OPS of .800 against RHP and Goodrum has a career OPS of .830 against LHP.

 

Pena is likely starting the season in AAA.

[tx 3 putt 76159]

16 minutes ago, The Dog said:

less money for a worse team just for an opt-out?

Bad decision IMHO.

 

he had the worst free agent offseason in recent memory. He totally misplayed this whole deal

 

spend that money on top arms, extend the young players. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by tx 3 putt

[TonyTexas 10478]

2 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

Pena is likely starting the season in AAA.

 

[tx 3 putt 76159]

4 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

 

[texashorne 1177]

Maybe there's more truth out there regarding his back. Maybe the organization is bullish on Pena. Maybe we land another arm/reliever with that cash. Maybe fuck yourself. 

[HtownHorn 14446]

13 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

 

We shall see. I'm fine with it anyway it goes, but rookies have rarely started their 1st season on opening day with the Astros recently.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

The Astros are spending 24 million on Baez, Nerris, Odo and Montero this year 

George Springer plays for the blue jays for 24 million per year. 

the Astros are 40,000,000 under the tax line. 
Carlos Correa makes 35,000,000 to play for the Twins. 
 

None of these things make sense to me right now. I’m hopeful they have some sort of galaxy brain plan they are waiting to spring on us. I will be patient. I’m at a loss, right now, for how the last 2 off-seasons made any type of sense losing the heart (Springer) and face (correa) of the only title winning team we’ve ever had over deals that were clearly affordable if we had wanted to do them.  We clearly did not want to do them.

If we were really scrounging for loose change and needed to be under the tax after bringing back Correa and Springer we could have traded Uncle Mike. They are acting like this window will stay open forever and we don’t need to have any sense of urgency. Maybe they have deals lined up with Yordan and Tucker to take them through 2028 and a crystal ball that says Whitley, Brown and someone else are going to be awesome on the bump and we will get another decade of playoff baseball here,  but that’s typically not how competitive windows work. 

1 title for this organization during this golden age of talent would be a shame to rival the Braves in their decade of awesomeness. I am so grateful for everything the Astros have been for the last 7 or 8 years. I’m just scared shitless that it was all Lunhow and Crane is the emperor with no clothes. 

[htown85 159]

Correa: at the end of the day is was about maximizing money earned over his career.

 

Astros: at the end of the day it was about maximizing the team value over a long period of time.

 

It’s a business, after all.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

1 minute ago, HtownHorn said:

We shall see. I'm fine with it anyway it goes, but rookies have rarely started their 1st season on opening day with the Astros recently.

Peña is probably old enough that they don’t even need to worry about fucking with his service clock if we are being honest. It would probably be more beneficial to start him on opening day to see what he is before the trade deadline rather than monkey around with service time bullshit. 

[UTexasFight 9369]

Not to mention new rules that benefit starting a guy like him on opening day roster (if he turns out to be good)

Edited March 19, 2022 by UTexasFight

[tx 3 putt 76159]

1 minute ago, UTexasFight said:

Not to mention new rules that benefit starting a guy like him on opening day roster (if he turns out to be good)

Let him bat #8 

[David Dennison 18606]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The Astros are spending 24 million on Baez, Nerris, Odo and Montero this year 

George Springer plays for the blue jays for 24 million per year. 

the Astros are 40,000,000 under the tax line. 
Carlos Correa makes 35,000,000 to play for the Twins. 
 

None of these things make sense to me right now. I’m hopeful they have some sort of galaxy brain plan they are waiting to spring on us. I will be patient. I’m at a loss, right now, for how the last 2 off-seasons made any type of sense losing the heart (Springer) and face (correa) of the only title winning team we’ve ever had over deals that were clearly affordable if we had wanted to do them.  We clearly did not want to do them.

If we were really scrounging for loose change and needed to be under the tax after bringing back Correa and Springer we could have traded Uncle Mike. They are acting like this window will stay open forever and we don’t need to have any sense of urgency. Maybe they have deals lined up with Yordan and Tucker to take them through 2028 and a crystal ball that says Whitley, Brown and someone else are going to be awesome on the bump and we will get another decade of playoff baseball here,  but that’s typically not how competitive windows work. 

1 title for this organization during this golden age of talent would be a shame to rival the Braves in their decade of awesomeness. I am so grateful for everything the Astros have been for the last 7 or 8 years. I’m just scared shitless that it was all Lunhow and Crane is the emperor with no clothes. 

Well, both Springer and Correa are injury prone.

That plays into both decisions and cannot be discounted.

[UTexasFight 9369]

Unfortunately we’re seeing the raysification of our astros

 

it’s not a terrible thing. It just sucks because big time names are more fun for the average fan  

[David Dennison 18606]

2 minutes ago, UTexasFight said:

Unfortunately we’re seeing the raysification of our astros

 

it’s not a terrible thing. It just sucks because big time names are more fun for the average fan  

Offering Carlos Correa $160 million for five years is not Raysification.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Well, both Springer and Correa are injury prone.

That plays into both decisions and cannot be discounted.

5 year and 1 year respectively when we could have paid them wouldn’t have broken us. So is Bregman by the way and we paid him. 
 

My fear is click and crane are frauds and it was all Lunhow. That’s probably irrational and unfair to them. None of those deals were terrible that click has done, and none of them were without merit on an individual basis. It just seems like the opportunity cost with how it played out was enormous. 

[UTexasFight 9369]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Offering Carlos Correa $160 million for five years is not Raysification.

Not matching 3/ 105 with opt outs is

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Well, both Springer and Correa are injury prone.

That plays into both decisions and cannot be discounted.

This is true. Springer was hurt for much of the year and Correa obviously has his issues injury wise. They were both always ready to answer the bell in post season which is what you want/need them for (so far). The thing that really stings is neither of them got really long deals by baseball standards. 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

7 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Let him bat #8 

There is no doubt that’s the logical plan for him. 

[David Dennison 18606]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

5 year and 1 year respectively when we could have paid them wouldn’t have broken us. So is Bregman by the way and we paid him. 
 

My fear is click and crane are frauds and it was all Lunhow. That’s probably irrational and unfair to them. None of those deals were terrible that click has done, and none of them were without merit on an individual basis. It just seems like the opportunity cost with how it played out was enormous. 

Bregman never became a free agent. Carlos Correa was determined to become one.

Edited March 19, 2022 by David Dennison

[David Dennison 18606]

6 minutes ago, UTexasFight said:

Not matching 3/ 105 with opt outs is

With restrictive no-trade clauses?

I think not.

[tx 3 putt 76159]

10 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

5 year and 1 year respectively when we could have paid them wouldn’t have broken us. So is Bregman by the way and we paid him. 
 

My fear is click and crane are frauds and it was all Lunhow. That’s probably irrational and unfair to them. None of those deals were terrible that click has done, and none of them were without merit on an individual basis. It just seems like the opportunity cost with how it played out was enormous. 

this is a horrible post haha

Edited March 19, 2022 by tx 3 putt

[Mitch Hedberg 2090]

There’s a part of me that wonders if Springer and Correa both just wanted to get out of Houston and start fresh somewhere after the “scandal” of 2017. Sometimes you find a new place to work just because it feels like it’s time. Money being similar or better doesn’t hurt. 

[UTexasFight 9369]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

With restrictive no-trade clauses?

I think not.

That is true. I’ll give you that.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

8 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

this is a horrible post haha

Cool. We were a bat short last year in the World Series. Looks like 2 bats short this year. Like I said- it’s probably irrational and unfair but Click has seen the talent get worse on his watch rather than better. You have absolutely zero data points to show he’s on the same level as the guy he replaced. 
I’m not saying it can’t work.  I’m not saying it won’t work. I’m saying, at this moment in time, it doesn’t make sense. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[tx 3 putt 76159]

7 minutes ago, Mitch Hedberg said:

There’s a part of me that wonders if Springer and Correa both just wanted to get out of Houston and start fresh somewhere after the “scandal” of 2017. Sometimes you find a new place to work just because it feels like it’s time. Money being similar or better doesn’t hurt. 

the back end of that springer contract is going to be ugly 

[Scraps 13531]

Joe smith joining Carlos

[David Dennison 18606]

Just now, Scraps said:

Joe smith joining Carlos

Look out White Sox!

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Cool. We were a bat short last year in the World Series. Looks like 2 bats short this year. Like I said- it’s probably irrational and unfair but Click has seen the talent get worse on his watch rather than better. You have absolutely zero data points to show he’s on the same level as the guy he replaced. 
I’m not saying it can’t work.  I’m not saying it won’t work. I’m saying, at this moment in time, it Dora’s to make sense. 

I mean, yeah, instead of being in a position to draft in the top 5 each year and then have those players become all-stars on rookie contracts (and inheriting Altuve and Springer), he took over with no first or second round picks and all the best players reaching free agency. It’s impossible to compare Click and Lunhow.

[Welch 635]

3 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

I mean, yeah, instead of being in a position to draft in the top 5 each year and then have those players become all-stars on rookie contracts (and inheriting Altuve and Springer), he took over with no first or second round picks and all the best players reaching free agency. It’s impossible to compare Click and Lunhow.

Totally agree.  Building and maintaining are two different things.  Especially considering the way the Astros built.

Luhnow was obviously great at building, but unfortunately he never got the chance to maintain.  Maybe he would have been very good there too, but I don’t know that with any certainty.  

Regardless, Click’s job is different from what Luhnow’s was.

[tx 3 putt 76159]

10 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Joe smith joining Carlos

They can buy matching parkas

that cold weather is hell on backs 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

11 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

I mean, yeah, instead of being in a position to draft in the top 5 each year and then have those players become all-stars on rookie contracts (and inheriting Altuve and Springer), he took over with no first or second round picks and all the best players reaching free agency. It’s impossible to compare Click and Lunhow.

Lunhow drafted Lance and Correa when that wasn’t obvious (very shrewdly and sort of pioneered how to get the deal done for 1/1 under value and then get a bonus hard to sign guy out of it), traded for JV, traded for Greinke, signed Morton, extended Altuve for peanuts, traded for Yordan, raped Minny in the Presley deal and oversaw just an incredible talent development program that tuned 5 figure Latin American afterthought signees into important pieces that extended our championship window. He was awesome. 

To your point this is really the first year we will see Clicks imprint on the team in a big way. It’s his decisions now that inform over half the roster (extending LMJ, re-signing Brantley, most of the bullpen, re-signing JV, Odorizzi, re-doing Maldonado, giving the job to kids in CF and SS) etc, keeping powder dry for whatever he’s going to do at the trade deadline. 

The jury is completely out on him and he’s certainly working from a vastly different starting point than Lunhow was. What Lunow did was absolutely remarkable. Click has a different set of circumstances no doubt. He also inherited a team with a ton of talent and not a single bad contract though, so it’s not like he’s been handicapped in some way. It’s becoming his to own. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[clapclapclap 9000]

It's Luhnow, dammit!

[tx 3 putt 76159]

22 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Cool. We were a bat short last year in the World Series. Looks like 2 bats short this year. Like I said- it’s probably irrational and unfair but Click has seen the talent get worse on his watch rather than better. You have absolutely zero data points to show he’s on the same level as the guy he replaced. 
I’m not saying it can’t work.  I’m not saying it won’t work. I’m saying, at this moment in time, it doesn’t make sense. 

 

altuve / alvarez / bregman got shut down. you're not 'bats short', players need to play

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Lunhow drafted Lance and Correa when that wasn’t obvious (very shrewdly and sort of pioneered how to get the deal done for 1/1 under value and then get a bonus hard to sign guy out of it), traded for JV, traded for Greinke, signed Morton, extended Altuve for peanuts, traded for Yordan, raped Minny in the Presley deal and oversaw just an incredible talent development program that tuned 5 figure Latin American afterthought signees into important pieces that extended our championship window. He was awesome. 

To your point this is really the first year we will see Clicks imprint on the team in a big way. It’s his decisions now that inform over half the roster (extending LMJ, re-signing Brantley, most of the bullpen, re-signing JV, Odorizzi, re-doing Maldonado, giving the job to kids in CF and SS) etc, keeping powder dry for whatever he’s going to do at the trade deadline. 

The jury is completely out on him and he’s certainly working from a vastly different starting point than Lunhow was. What Lunow did was absolutely remarkable. Click has a different set of circumstances no doubt. He also inherited a team with a ton of talent and not a single bad contract though, so it’s not like he’s been handicapped in some way. It’s becoming his to own. 

You forgot the part about drafting Appel instead of Bryant and trading Hader at al for Gomez.

Im just kidding, I know Lunhow was great, not arguing that. My point is that their circumstances couldn’t be more different. And I’m not saying Click is going well, more that I don’t know how to fairly evaluate him at this point. 

[texashorne 1177]

5 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

altuve / alvarez / bregman got shut down. you're not 'bats short', players need to play

Exactly. The Braves sure as hell weren't "bats short" when they lost Ozuna and Acuna Jr. 

[tx 3 putt 76159]

1 minute ago, texashorne said:

Exactly. The Braves sure as hell weren't "bats short" when they lost Ozuna and Acuna Jr. 

 

he's in troll mode this am 

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said:

You forgot the part about drafting Appel instead of Bryant and trading Hader at al for Gomez.

Im just kidding, I know Lunhow was great, not arguing that. My point is that their circumstances couldn’t be more different. And I’m not saying Click is going well, more that I don’t know how to fairly evaluate him at this point. 

Sure. 
 

people (not you- you are a really astute poster) in the real world get Luhnow wrong in the same way they get Money Ball wrong. They read that book and think “oh Billy Beane is all about on base percentage”. Nope. He was all about OBP when Michael Lewis wrote the book bc that was undervalued at that moment in time, but what he was always about was finding market inefficiencies and exploiting them. 
 

People similarly think Luhnow was about tanking for top draft picks so we could nail those down. Luhnow was actually pretty humble in say in that he didn’t have a crystal ball that would enable him to make any better decisions than anyone else, he wanted to give himself an edge by giving himself as many chances as possible to get it right.  Theory being if he hit on 33% of a bunch of moves that’s better than 33% of a couple. That informed his drafting strategy which was pretty revolutionary. Then, his player development was just special. 

If you look at how many players the Astros developed that are competent major leaguers it is absurd and remarkable. 
 

 

[clapclapclap 9000]

43 minutes ago, Mitch Hedberg said:

There’s a part of me that wonders if Springer and Correa both just wanted to get out of Houston and start fresh somewhere after the “scandal” of 2017.  

I definitely think this played a big part in their decisions.  And we know that there will be plenty of those preening, unaccountable baseball writer asshats that will blackball Astros for Hall of Fame voting (at least the first year or two.)

May 'Scapegoat and Coverup' Manfred be cursed with years of incontinence and untreatable shingles.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by clapclapclap

[texashorne 1177]

I think you need to have more faith in Jim Crane. Maybe we have an owner, finally, who isn't a "window" guy. Maybe our window is always open like the Yankees. We all grew up on lifetime Astros Biggio and Bagwell and I think we long for that lifetime player devotion that we learned from them. In reality, baseball isn't like that anymore. 

We now have Jim Crane who wants to win and knows how to structure a winning organization. Also, there 12 teams making the playoffs from now on. The hottest team out of that 12 come October will win it all. He has done nothing to make me believe he won't put a winner out there. 

The sky isn't falling. We are the Kansas City Chiefs of the MLB. Were going to be good for a damn long time.  

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

10 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

altuve / alvarez / bregman got shut down. you're not 'bats short', players need to play

Reddick, Altuve, Bregman and McCann combined to have an ops around 600 in the World Series in 2017.  That was half our lineup in that World Series. You won’t ever have all the bats clicking at once. The more potent and dangerous bats you have the more opportunity you have for one of them to carry you, which is what Springer did. We didn’t have that in 2021. It’s possible that would have been Springer. It could have been Altuve/Alvarez or Bregman, sure, but it wasn’t. The point is that you want Springer and Correa on your team in the playoffs because they are the kind of guys that can absolutely carry a team by themselves against top quality competition and have shown they can do that. 
So you can Bregman, Altuve, Yordan and Tucker. I’d just rather have 6 bites at that apple than 4. Yuli and Brantley are station movers that keep the line moving. Theres value in that. Just much less value and more context dependent than hitting 5 HR’s in a 7 game series. 

[tx 3 putt 76159]

6 minutes ago, texashorne said:

I think you need to have more faith in Jim Crane. Maybe we have an owner, finally, who isn't a "window" guy. Maybe our window is always open like the Yankees. We all grew up on lifetime Astros Biggio and Bagwell and I think we long for that lifetime player devotion that we learned from them. In reality, baseball isn't like that anymore. 

We now have Jim Crane who wants to win and knows how to structure a winning organization. Also, there 12 teams making the playoffs from now on. The hottest team out of that 12 come October will win it all. He has done nothing to make me believe he won't put a winner out there. 

The sky isn't falling. We are the Kansas City Chiefs of the MLB. Were going to be good for a damn long time.  

 

the cubs had a hell of core of players when they won their world series and did jack shit with it moving forward 

[David Dennison 18606]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

the cubs had a hell of core of players when they won their world series and did jack shit with it moving forward 

And what the Astros did after theirs shows that they aren't the Cubs.

[Wulaw Horn 18963]

7 minutes ago, texashorne said:

I think you need to have more faith in Jim Crane. Maybe we have an owner, finally, who isn't a "window" guy. Maybe our window is always open like the Yankees. We all grew up on lifetime Astros Biggio and Bagwell and I think we long for that lifetime player devotion that we learned from them. In reality, baseball isn't like that anymore. 

We now have Jim Crane who wants to win and knows how to structure a winning organization. Also, there 12 teams making the playoffs from now on. The hottest team out of that 12 come October will win it all. He has done nothing to make me believe he won't put a winner out there. 

The sky isn't falling. We are the Kansas City Chiefs of the MLB. Were going to be good for a damn long time.  

Out of rep as I tried to hit you with some. 
maybe that’s the plan. To just be there every year and hope we get the luck in that particular year. I just loved seeing us swing for the fences with a historically greta team in 2019, even though it didn’t end in a parade I respected it. There is, no doubt, a shit load of luck involved in winning it all in baseball. Baseball is cruel that way. 

[TonyTexas 10478]

23 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

he's in troll mode this am 

More like the monkey with a typewriter mode

[HtownHorn 14446]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The Astros are spending 24 million on Baez, Nerris, Odo and Montero this year 

George Springer plays for the blue jays for 24 million per year. 

the Astros are 40,000,000 under the tax line. 
Carlos Correa makes 35,000,000 to play for the Twins. 
 

None of these things make sense to me right now. I’m hopeful they have some sort of galaxy brain plan they are waiting to spring on us. I will be patient. I’m at a loss, right now, for how the last 2 off-seasons made any type of sense losing the heart (Springer) and face (correa) of the only title winning team we’ve ever had over deals that were clearly affordable if we had wanted to do them.  We clearly did not want to do them.

If we were really scrounging for loose change and needed to be under the tax after bringing back Correa and Springer we could have traded Uncle Mike. They are acting like this window will stay open forever and we don’t need to have any sense of urgency. Maybe they have deals lined up with Yordan and Tucker to take them through 2028 and a crystal ball that says Whitley, Brown and someone else are going to be awesome on the bump and we will get another decade of playoff baseball here,  but that’s typically not how competitive windows work. 

1 title for this organization during this golden age of talent would be a shame to rival the Braves in their decade of awesomeness. I am so grateful for everything the Astros have been for the last 7 or 8 years. I’m just scared shitless that it was all Lunhow and Crane is the emperor with no clothes. 

What doesn't make sense to you? That the Astros are spending money on their pitching staff over 1 position player that they were able to replace with McCormick and Meyers last year for pennies on the dollar? That's how the Astros have been to 5 straight ALCS. They make smart financial decisions. Keep your trolling shit on clutchfans.

Edited March 19, 2022 by HtownHorn