2021-2022 Astros Offseason Thread

[David Dennison 18660]

5 hours ago, kevwun said:

I think the high payroll comments are lip service and the Astros are letting the payroll whittle itself down while not acknowledging that's what is happening.  I don't want that to be the case, but I have a bad feeling it is.  We'll know for sure in the next few months.

There won't be anything happening after December 1 until they get a new CBA.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, WBT said:

The biggest part of it to me is the dumb contracts given to Odorizzi and Baez.  And Baez was a medical miss, not necessarily performance.  But I wouldn't say I'm overwhelmingly negative to him.  The bullpen moves at the deadline didn't look great through the end of the regular season but they all performed well in the playoffs.  Building a bullpen is the easy part though.

Mostly I'd say he hasn't done enough yet to have a strong opinion either way.  And that comes with inheriting a great roster where he didn't need to do much.  But as we continue to have people leave we'll need to do something for replacements.  And I'll readily admit that for this to be sustainable a lot of that will need to involve bringing guys up through the farm.

This offseason will help to fill in more of the picture.  My worry is that he'll act like he's still with the Rays and only shop in the bargain bin but we'll see.

 

This is all true.  IT sure looks like we are trending to him being like the Rays though. He can prove me wrong this offseason. I hope he does.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, mbtex said:

Odorizzi was only done because they thought  Framber's injury was going to be all year. We did not have many options.

Sure we did.  Play it out with Javier and someone from the minors and make a move at the deadline if necessary.  We'd have had a lot more powder to make that happen.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

32 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

wat

The most prevalent thing at any trade deadline is relievers.  They generally don't require a high price.  You can always add those guys at the deadline.  Relievers are so up and down that a good argument can be made to always plan on getting one or two who are having a good year at the deadline.

[WBT 20422]

1 hour ago, Texas St. Armadillos said:

You lose Springer, but Tucker improved greatly (4.7 offensive WAR, .917 OPS).  Jury is still out on the decline of missing Correa, but he's a free agent with injury history.  Do you want the Astros to offer 10 years 320-350?

Not my money, so yes I do.  And before anyone cries poor, the Astros would still be profitable if they gave that contract to Correa.

Edited November 10, 2021 by WBT

[The Dog 43807]

Tucker was an upgrade over Springer. In fact, Tucker's performance this year compares favorably to Springer's best season as an Astro:

2019 Springer vs. 2021 Kyle Tucker

Springer was 29 in 2019 and Tuck was 24 this year. 

Initial observation: letting George walk was the smart move.

[TonyTexas 10482]

55 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is all true.  IT sure looks like we are trending to him being like the Rays though. He can prove me wrong this offseason. I hope he does.

Yep

@Gourmand isn’t going to like this

 

[tx 3 putt 76399]

Astros outfielder Jake Meyers underwent surgery to repair a labral tear in his left shoulder today. He is not expected to return to game competition before Opening Day.

[WBT 20422]

Meyers was hurt 29 days ago.  What have they been waiting for?

[David Dennison 18660]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is all true.  IT sure looks like we are trending to him being like the Rays though. He can prove me wrong this offseason. I hope he does.

Jim Crane hired him for a reason.

[CycleTex87 2954]

Maybe they were waiting for his insurance info to get sorted out. I guess he’s met his deductible at this point. 

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

Astros outfielder Jake Meyers underwent surgery to repair a labral tear in his left shoulder today. He is not expected to return to game competition before Opening Day.

ALDS Game 4: talk about winning the battle but losing the war, goodness

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

The most prevalent thing at any trade deadline is relievers.  They generally don't require a high price.  You can always add those guys at the deadline.  Relievers are so up and down that a good argument can be made to always plan on getting one or two who are having a good year at the deadline.

Nothing you said here is incorrect, but this is the first time in 5 seasons that I’ve trusted a bullpen in the playoffs so surely it must be more complicated than it appears.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

Tucker was an upgrade over Springer. In fact, Tucker's performance this year compares favorably to Springer's best season as an Astro:

2019 Springer vs. 2021 Kyle Tucker

Springer was 29 in 2019 and Tuck was 24 this year. 

Initial observation: letting George walk was the smart move.

Springer leaving didn’t make Tucker better and they don’t play the same position. I’d like our offense in the World Series a lot better with Springer hitting lead off than with Siri hitting g 8th. 
it’s not an either or. You just brought up a red herring. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[kevwun 15653]

Yeah, it was definitely weird hoping the starters and middle inning guys could get it to 6th so Maton, Stanek and Graveman and Pressly could end it.  Glad Click thinks the starting rotation is ok.

Edited November 11, 2021 by kevwun

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

21 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Jim Crane hired him for a reason.

I’m aware. It’s the thing I’ve been dreading. 

[kevwun 15653]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Springer editing didn’t make Tucker better and they don’t play the same position. I’d like our offense in the World Series a lot better with Springer hitting lead off than with Siri hitting g 8th. 
it’s not an either or. You just brought up a red herring. 

Yes, there was still a hole from Springer leaving that was not filled.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Nothing you said here is incorrect, but this is the first time in 5 seasons that I’ve trusted a bullpen in the playoffs so surely it must be more complicated than it appears.

That’s fair. But, to that point, have we made any bullpen moves at the deadline in the past?  And I’m not counting getting a loogy basically for free at the end of August…

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

9 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

ALDS Game 4: talk about winning the battle but losing the war, goodness

Hadnt really thought about it that way, but yeah, no doubt. 
And I thought that rain delay was a good thing for us. And it was for winning that series. But talk about the worlds worst butterfly effect. 

[TonyTexas 10482]

23 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s fair. But, to that point, have we made any bullpen moves at the deadline in the past?  And I’m not counting getting a loogy basically for free at the end of August…

Pressly and Osuna in 2018

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

41 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Yes, there was still a hole from Springer leaving that was not filled.

I mean, the Astros led MLB in team wRC+. They were the best hitting team in baseball.

And through one year…don’t we have to say that Click made the right call in CF with regard to Springer’s free agency? Straw had a more valuable season than Springer, and he was traded because (presumably) Click sees more upside with Meyers/McCormick, who were also productive (+3 WAR between them).

I’m not ready to panic about the roster management at this point. Placing a lot of emphasis on player value/cost ratio makes a lot of sense provided that the saved money is used elsewhere. They’ve been right at the soft cap for a few years now; they’re never going to blow past it like the 2021 Dodgers did (even the 2022 Dodgers won’t do that), but they’ve shown that they’ll hover around there.

I love Springer, love the guy. But he’s on the wrong side of 30, and his injury history was baked into the calculus. They projected that they’d get above-average production in CF at a fraction of the cost, and they did, in year 1. The cost savings *should* then be applied elsewhere - that’s the key.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

32 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

Pressly and Osuna in 2018

Duh. Thanks. I knew I was missing a deadline. 
One of the best moves around and one that crippled the franchise. None of this shit would have gone down like this if not for the Osuna deal. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said:

I mean, the Astros led MLB in team wRC+. They were the best hitting team in baseball.

And through one year…don’t we have to say that Click made the right call in CF with regard to Springer’s free agency? Straw had a more valuable season than Springer, and he was traded because (presumably) Click sees more upside with Meyers/McCormick, who were also productive (+3 WAR between them).

I’m not ready to panic about the roster management at this point. Placing a lot of emphasis on player value/cost ratio makes a lot of sense provided that the saved money is used elsewhere. They’ve been right at the soft cap for a few years now; they’re never going to blow past it like the 2021 Dodgers did (even the 2022 Dodgers won’t do that), but they’ve shown that they’ll hover around there.

I love Springer, love the guy. But he’s on the wrong side of 30, and his injury history was baked into the calculus. They projected that they’d get above-average production in CF at a fraction of the cost, and they did, in year 1. The cost savings *should* then be applied elsewhere - that’s the key.

Agreed on the should have applied cost savings elsewhere and that’s my major concern. 
My secondary concern is what I said before the playoffs started- it helps to have really good players hitting against really great pitching. Springer was a WS MVP. Our center fielders got chewed up more or less in the World Series and didn’t have any big moments in the playoffs that weren’t luck (Siri with not one but two 60 exit velo hits). 

[tx 3 putt 76399]

Wulaw needs his own offseason thread of gloom and doom

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Agreed on the should have applied cost savings elsewhere and that’s my major concern. 
My secondary concern is what I said before the playoffs started- it helps to have really good players hitting against really great pitching. Springer was a WS MVP. Our center fielders got chewed up more or less in the World Series and didn’t have any big moments in the playoffs that weren’t luck (Siri with not one but two 60 exit velo hits). 

Yeah, of course we’d rather have Springer in those situations. But (a) Meyers wasn’t available in the WS and (b) the team still made it that far. Short series are a crapshoot; they construct rosters to get to the postseason.

Agree that if we start seeing the payroll drop while letting guys walk, well, that won’t be good. But people have been fretting about this ever since Crane took over and they started shedding payroll. To me, they’ve always appeared to have a plan and it’s been pretty damn effective to this point.

[tx 3 putt 76399]

8 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Agreed on the should have applied cost savings elsewhere and that’s my major concern. 
My secondary concern is what I said before the playoffs started- it helps to have really good players hitting against really great pitching. Springer was a WS MVP. Our center fielders got chewed up more or less in the World Series and didn’t have any big moments in the playoffs that weren’t luck (Siri with not one but two 60 exit velo hits). 

 

astros CF didn't cost us the WS :

altuve : .222

alvarez : .100

bregman : .095

 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

14 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Wulaw needs his own offseason thread of gloom and doom

Ha. I will mellow out. Just a lot of bread crumbs looking bad coming out right now. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

11 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

astros CF didn't cost us the WS :

altuve : .222

alvarez : .100

bregman : .095

 

Counterpoint- when Springer got hot he could carry a team for a week, easily. 
Having 6 big bats is key bc it gives one or two more chances to carry a team. Brantley and Yuli don’t have enough thump to do it themselves- they are complimentary. 
Springer did. Correa did. They are both gone. They need to be replaced. Hope that happens. 

[tx 3 putt 76399]

crane didn't buy this team to tank it

[tx 3 putt 76399]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Counterpoint- when Springer got hot he could carry a team for a week, easily. 
Having 6 big bats is key bc it gives one or two more chances to carry a team. Brantley and Yuli don’t have enough thump to do it themselves- they are complimentary. 
Springer did. Correa did. They are both gone. They need to be replaced. Hope that happens. 

 

unless springer can start games, he wasn't turning the tide of that series 

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Counterpoint- when Springer got hot he could carry a team for a week, easily. 
Having 6 big bats is key bc it gives one or two more chances to carry a team. Brantley and Yuli don’t have enough thump to do it themselves- they are complimentary. 
Springer did. Correa did. They are both gone. They need to be replaced. Hope that happens. 

Red-hot Springer is beyond awesome. But he is just as likely to be ice cold in any given 6-game stretch. That’s why you build a roster based on full-season production. 

[The Dog 43807]

Springer leaving didn’t make Tucker better and they don’t play the same position. I’d like our offense in the World Series a lot better with Springer hitting lead off than with Siri hitting g 8th. 
it’s not an either or. You just brought up a red herring. 

I mentioned nothing about their positions - just their batting. We replaced Springer in the lineup with Ted.

Ted is better. And cheaper.

We’re going to be fine.

[David Dennison 18660]

19 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

crane didn't buy this team to tank it

The Rays way done properly is the opposite of tanking.

That's the thinking anyway.

Not saying I like it.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

Also we keep talking about the Rays like that’s a bad thing - that club has won at least 90 games in 8 of the last 13 full seasons, and went 40-20 in 2020, so let’s call it 9 in the last 14 seasons. Of all the clubs I don’t want the Astros to resemble, TB is pretty far down the list. They have created a successful, sustainable formula. The Giants just won 107 games with a similar formula that values depth. 

Though I get the point, and I don’t think that the Astros’ payroll will get TB small.

[tx 3 putt 76399]

1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Also we keep talking about the Rays like that’s a bad thing - that club has won at least 90 games in 8 of the last 13 full seasons, and went 40-20 in 2020, so let’s call it 9 in the last 14 seasons. Of all the clubs I don’t want the Astros to resemble, TB is pretty far down the list. They have created a successful, sustainable formula. The Giants just won 107 games with a similar formula that values depth. 

Though I get the point, and I don’t think that the Astros’ payroll will get TB small.

 

trade bregman for toro

trade altuve for prospects 

[WBT 20422]

37 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

unless springer can start games, he wasn't turning the tide of that series 

Why not?  We lost games 2-0 and 3-2.  A guy with 7 WS HRs in 14 games might have done something.

Edited November 11, 2021 by WBT

[henrygandorf 29177]

christ i saw 30 new posts and thought correa signed with the yankees or something.  i'm not sure this is better.

[texashorne 1177]

I remember last season we were gnashing teeth over signing Jackie Bradley Jr. He ended up sucking, and it turned out the Astros FO had a much better plan that involved Straw, Chaz, and Jake. So I hope if the FO does (or doesn't) do something, its because they have another Ace up their sleeve. 

 

[Storm the Field 5273]

Damn, torn labrum for Meyers is a shitty injury, especially on his throwing side. I'm not sure we'll see much of him in '22. Seen some comments from people that have had that surgery talking about how it took them a year to get back to normal. John Hopkins Sports Medicine site says:

Quote

All of the operations for the throwing shoulder — whether it is an operation to tighten the shoulder or to fix a torn labrum — take about three months to heal. Throwers who have these operations on average take nine to 12 months to recover fully for throwing. Some players recover more rapidly, but for pitchers the time is longer due to the high stresses upon the throwing arm.

 

[texashorne 1177]

If its going to be all of 2022 are we rolling with Siri and Chaz?

 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

13 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Damn, torn labrum for Meyers is a shitty injury, especially on his throwing side. I'm not sure we'll see much of him in '22. Seen some comments from people that have had that surgery talking about how it took them a year to get back to normal. John Hopkins Sports Medicine site says:

 

Will it affect his swing? 

[Storm the Field 5273]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Will it affect his swing? 

Can't be good for it, though I imagine if you're a RH batter, your left shoulder is more important (pulling the bat forward). That said, I presume you still can't swing normally without both shoulders at full strength.

[Mez2 4021]

I wouldn't expect much from Jake for this upcoming year, a torn labrum on a baseball players throwing side is fucking shitty. 

[Storm the Field 5273]

6 minutes ago, texashorne said:

If its going to be all of 2022 are we rolling with Siri and Chaz?

Please no. I like Chaz but he should be a 4th OF bench contributor, not the everyday starting CF for a playoff team. And I just don't know what to think about Siri yet.

[WBT 20422]

Damn, I didn't realize the recovery time was that long.  If it's going to be '23 anyway I guess it doesn't matter that he waited a month before having the surgery.

[Murfdogg21 4412]

18 hours ago, WBT said:

Meyers was hurt 29 days ago.  What have they been waiting for?

He went to Verlander’s doctor. 

[Js1 85110]

Find a one year rental. 

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

34 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Find a one year rental. 

I wonder if Buxton would consider a 1-year prove-it contract…say at $15-20 mm or so? I can’t imagine too many teams are willing to give him a lot of years, but he’s still pretty young and if he actually can play 125 games he may get a multiyear deal next offseason. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Hank Chinaski

[LCHorn 2585]

16 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Also we keep talking about the Rays like that’s a bad thing - that club has won at least 90 games in 8 of the last 13 full seasons, and went 40-20 in 2020, so let’s call it 9 in the last 14 seasons. Of all the clubs I don’t want the Astros to resemble, TB is pretty far down the list. They have created a successful, sustainable formula. The Giants just won 107 games with a similar formula that values depth. 

Though I get the point, and I don’t think that the Astros’ payroll will get TB small.

At least as far as my personal fandom, I’d rather be the best in the world for a couple years than get beaten in the playoffs but make them for a decade.  

 

1 hour ago, Mez2 said:

I wouldn't expect much from Jake for this upcoming year, a torn labrum on a baseball players throwing side is fucking shitty. 

I think Bagwell’s hitting performance decline was attributed to his labrum, too.  

[Ojo Rojo 1906]

Really sucks about Meyers.  We're going to roll with Chaz/Siri.  Chaz could be this year's Straw who we trade at the deadline for positions of need late in the season when Meyers comes back.