2021-22 MLB Offseason Thread

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

4 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

What the fuck are you babbling about?

They went up to 40 on the pre arb pool.
They agreed on the draft to what the players wanted

The major string is allegedly that they want a very punitive 3rd threshold at $290-$300 million dollars. That's not a big deal as it will apply to maybe 1 or 2 teams who would have the inclination to go that high.  That's good for the game.  You don't want a team spending $300,000,000 million more than some and $100,000,000 more than their nearest competitor.   
The other string is the international draft.  Which, will cap costs on the owner side.  But it also will lose the current system with child exploitation, human trafficking, signing kids at 12 years old and all that amazingness that has come from the international signing period. You almost have to be a sociopath to see what's going on in that market and say "love it" lets not change a thing.  
Besides- those players aren't union members- the MLBPA doesn't give any more of a shit about them than they do minor leaguers, and truthfully giving the owners cost savings on the international side probably will leave some room for them to spend more on active union members- which is pretty much the goal of the union.  

But sure, just babbling.  It's a fair deal for the players. It also allows 162 games and full pay. If they want more than this and are willing to blow up a significant part of a season over a threshold at 60,000,000 over that's pretty much the definition of cutting off their nose to spite their face.  

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

26 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

There needs to be min salary cap, with penalties. Also, any team within 10% of the min for 4 years, must be sold 

I'd love to see that happen.  Neither the players or the owners are interested in making it a thing.  Which is too bad b/c that is a great fucking idea to make the game better. 

[usmc0331horn 986]

If they ban the shift then I won't have that to bitch about every game this year.

[Jameslaw121 4485]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

They went up to 40 on the pre arb pool.
They agreed on the draft to what the players wanted

The major string is allegedly that they want a very punitive 3rd threshold at $290-$300 million dollars. That's not a big deal as it will apply to maybe 1 or 2 teams who would have the inclination to go that high.  That's good for the game.  You don't want a team spending $300,000,000 million more than some and $100,000,000 more than their nearest competitor.   
The other string is the international draft.  Which, will cap costs on the owner side.  But it also will lose the current system with child exploitation, human trafficking, signing kids at 12 years old and all that amazingness that has come from the international signing period. You almost have to be a sociopath to see what's going on in that market and say "love it" lets not change a thing.  
Besides- those players aren't union members- the MLBPA doesn't give any more of a shit about them than they do minor leaguers, and truthfully giving the owners cost savings on the international side probably will leave some room for them to spend more on active union members- which is pretty much the goal of the union.  

But sure, just babbling.  It's a fair deal for the players. It also allows 162 games and full pay. If they want more than this and are willing to blow up a significant part of a season over a threshold at 60,000,000 over that's pretty much the definition of cutting off their nose to spite their face.  

As far as the international draft. Current latin american plays in the union won't support it

[David Dennison 19442]

 

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

3 hours ago, Jameslaw121 said:

As far as the international draft. Current latin american plays in the union won't support it

So they say. I’m skeptical that this could keep us from playing games, especially as there will be a concession (ending QO/draft pick compensation) that benefits the actual membership, but sure, this could be the first time when people give up goodies for themselves and voluntarily take on present day pain to help out others in the future that aren’t even currently in the union. It could happen that way but I’m betting against. 

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

They can’t get to 162 and full pay now I don’t think. To late in the season starting 4/14 unless they are ok with a guarantee of pushing the whole World Series into November. 

[Beau Vine 55838]

25 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

So they say. I’m skeptical that this could keep us from playing games, especially as there will be a concession (ending QO/draft pick compensation) that benefits the actual membership, but sure, this could be the first time when people give up goodies for themselves and voluntarily take on present day pain to help out others in the future that aren’t even currently in the union. It could happen that way but I’m betting against. 

Your shit just keeps getting stupider.

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

15 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Your shit just keeps getting stupider.

quality analysis- like when you said “not even close to accurate” on the percentage of revenue for players comp and then I provided a long ass article, sourced and agreed to by the players association, saying what I said was basically exactly right (within 1 percentage point).

We shall see. I bet that MLB gets their international draft. Maybe I bet wrong and the players band together and keep it from happening but I bet it’s a leverage point to get something more that current membership wants- draft pick comp and QO wasn’t a big enough chip. It’s a prediction about the future. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong. We shall see. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[Jameslaw121 4485]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

So they say. I’m skeptical that this could keep us from playing games, especially as there will be a concession (ending QO/draft pick compensation) that benefits the actual membership, but sure, this could be the first time when people give up goodies for themselves and voluntarily take on present day pain to help out others in the future that aren’t even currently in the union. It could happen that way but I’m betting against. 

 

[Jameslaw121 4485]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

quality analysis- like when you said “not even close to accurate” on the percentage of revenue for players comp and then I provided a long ass article, sourced and agreed to by the players association, saying what I said was basically exactly right (within 1 percentage point).

We shall see. I bet that MLB gets their international draft. Maybe I bet wrong and the players band together and keep it from happening but I bet it’s a leverage point to get something more that current membership wants- draft pick comp and QO wasn’t a big enough chip. It’s a prediction about the future. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong. We shall see. 

I bet they get an international draft as well. Because no one likes the current system, I was just pointing out that that is where the issue with the international draft is a legit point. I mean what percentage of current MLB players come from not draft countries?

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

1 hour ago, Jameslaw121 said:

I bet they get an international draft as well. Because no one likes the current system, I was just pointing out that that is where the issue with the international draft is a legit point. I mean what percentage of current MLB players come from not draft countries?

I think it’s roughly 1/3 of current players that come from countries outside the draft. 

Yeah- the current international system is a total and complete cesspool as I alluded to earlier, and needs to be dealt with. The slot promises are allegedly for more money than are actually allowed for right now in signings, so maybe it’s not even actually about screwing labor out of money and is actually about competitive balance and cleaning up a system that they’ve taken a black eye over and can’t actually like, which as a fan I’m in favor of. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

50 minutes ago, Jameslaw121 said:

 

The people that were in the union at that time still stood to benefit from the abolishment of the reserve clause-  as did Flood personally if it got changed.  Also, the reserve clause was terribly anti- labor, whereas an international draft would just make similar what is already done in the NBA and for American born players in baseball and for all of football and hockey. It’s a relic of the past that international players aren’t in the draft, dating back to a time where not every team was invested in the idea they could scout the entire world in a hunt to unearth the best talent. That’s obviously changed now and an international draft makes sense and aligns with everyone else.
 

This isn’t a matter of great principal or inherent unfairness, this is a bargaining chip that the players feel like they can use as a pain point against the owners to get more of what they want for their actual membership, I would guess.
 

For all the talk of Flood being black balled he did not play in 1970, but did sign a contract for $110,000 in 1971 after he lost in court,  but was washed up and retired before the season ended. 

The current union membership, by comparison, cannot benefit in any way from change to the international system which makes that different in  kind. If they stand firm on this it will truly be altruistic in that it can’t help those in the union in any way, by definition. 

[Scraps 13754]

[Scraps 13754]

[Dr Fear 1286]

Great, what obscure issue is going to be the next deal breaker?

[Scraps 13754]

And now Jeff Passan got hacked lmao

[TonyTexas 10685]

Seems like positive sentiment is growing. LFG!!!

[Dr Fear 1286]

24 minutes ago, Scraps said:

And now Jeff Passan got hacked lmao

No one sees the NFT SkullToons coming lol

[Dr Fear 1286]

 

[HtownHorn 15243]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:38 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

They went up to 40 on the pre arb pool.
They agreed on the draft to what the players wanted

The major string is allegedly that they want a very punitive 3rd threshold at $290-$300 million dollars. That's not a big deal as it will apply to maybe 1 or 2 teams who would have the inclination to go that high.  That's good for the game.  You don't want a team spending $300,000,000 million more than some and $100,000,000 more than their nearest competitor.   
The other string is the international draft.  Which, will cap costs on the owner side.  But it also will lose the current system with child exploitation, human trafficking, signing kids at 12 years old and all that amazingness that has come from the international signing period. You almost have to be a sociopath to see what's going on in that market and say "love it" lets not change a thing.  
Besides- those players aren't union members- the MLBPA doesn't give any more of a shit about them than they do minor leaguers, and truthfully giving the owners cost savings on the international side probably will leave some room for them to spend more on active union members- which is pretty much the goal of the union.  

But sure, just babbling.  It's a fair deal for the players. It also allows 162 games and full pay. If they want more than this and are willing to blow up a significant part of a season over a threshold at 60,000,000 over that's pretty much the definition of cutting off their nose to spite their face.  

Yeah, I don't understand why the union is against the international draft.

[HtownHorn 15243]

21 hours ago, Jameslaw121 said:

As far as the international draft. Current latin american plays in the union won't support it

Has anyone asked them? They aren't heavily represented in the upper echelons of the PA.

[Dr Fear 1286]

2 hours ago, Dr Fear said:

Great, what obscure issue is going to be the next deal breaker?

Perfect!

[TonyTexas 10685]

Motherfucker 😡 😡😡😡😡😡 😡 

 

[TonyTexas 10685]

They are toying with my emotions. 20 of the player reps need to vote yes for the proposal to go to a general vote. 

 

[Scraps 13754]

Problem is fucking Scherzer and Lindor  are trying to cover Cohen's ass.  Fuck the Mets.  Glad to see the rest of the players don't give a shit and are voting for lol.  

[Scraps 13754]

 

[TonyTexas 10685]

9 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

They are toying with my emotions. 20 of the player reps need to vote yes for the proposal to go to a general vote.

No general vote needed 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by TonyTexas

[Elmer_Fudd 22960]

1 minute ago, Scraps said:

 

Nice!  About time.  Saw something about possible double-headers to still get a 162 game schedule in.  Or maybe the first couple of series are played after the final game of the year?

[Guadaloopy 11125]

[shadow_operative2.0 16183]

 

 

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

This is my shocked face that the international draft didn’t stop the deal from getting done. 

[David Dennison 19442]

This is good news.

Baseball is still killing itself and that makes me sad.

[TonyTexas 10685]

Free agency is going to be insane!

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

Also- the board voting against the deal and then the teams voting for it something like 26-4 is just outstanding and peak baseball. 

The rank and file clearly didn’t want to miss pay checks and once MLB got serious about actually trying to get a deal done rather than bust the union it all got worked out. 

 

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

Just now, David Dennison said:

This is good news.

Baseball is still killing itself and that makes me sad.

They didn’t miss a game and the season starts a week lat (I heard they are back to an April 7th start). 
Free Agency is going to be wild this week like the NBA usually is around 7-1 (which people love). Basketball has missed games twice since the last time baseball missed games. The idea that baseball is killing itself is vastly overstated, and I think this deal is actually going to make some stuff better for the fans. 

[David Dennison 19442]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

They didn’t miss a game and the season starts a week lat (I heard they are back to an April 7th start). 
Free Agency is going to be wild this week like the NBA usually is around 7-1 (which people love). Basketball has missed games twice since the last time baseball missed games. The idea that baseball is killing itself is vastly overstated, and I think this deal is actually going to make some stuff better for the fans. 

People who like baseball really like baseball. We are those people and our numbers are shrinking.

Casual fans couldn't care less. 

[Elmer_Fudd 22960]

8 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

They didn’t miss a game and the season starts a week lat (I heard they are back to an April 7th start). 
 

Yes April 7th is now Opening Day.  Will still at full 162 game schedule.

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

People who like baseball really like baseball. We are those people and our numbers are shrinking.

Casual fans couldn't care less. 

Ok- then how does this represent "baseball is killing itself" in any way, shape or form?  This labor dispute won't even be noticed by the casual fans. The season got pushed back a week. It doesn't matter.  They had an acrimonious negotiation during the offseason.  If you were paying attention to it then you are not a casual fan, but rather a die hard. If you are a die hard this free agency period will be fun, spring training always dragged too long, and the baseball season being back to starting in April, after the end of the NCAA tournament puts it back in the spot on the schedule it should have always been. I don't like my baseball bumping up against my NCAA tournament- which it would have done if it didn't get bumped back.  It's all good. Be happy.  5 more years of labor peace, and some stuff that should make the game a lot better (pitch clocks) some stuff that will make the game a little better (bigger bases, banning of the shift), as well as some stuff that makes it more fair (universal DH- the NL teams were at a big disadvantage in interleague and WS games, younger players getting a little more money, international draft if that happens).

That's not a bad outcome to an absolutely ugly process.  

[UTPhil2006 3911]

29 minutes ago, Elmer_Fudd said:

Yes April 7th is now Opening Day.  Will still at full 162 game schedule.

Do we start against the Angels?  Then make up NYY/PHI later in the year?

[TonyTexas 10685]

40 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is my shocked face that the international draft didn’t stop the deal from getting done. 

They kicked that can down the road

Quote

On Thursday morning, MLB and the MLBPA finally reached consensus, agreeing to a July 25 deadline to establish an international draft that would begin in 2024. The agreement appeared to remove a major roadblock in the CBA talks, even after another week of games was canceled on Wednesday afternoon. This compromise also means the international draft will continue to be a major talking point among union members and league officials over the next several months.

 

[HtownHorn 15243]

1 hour ago, TonyTexas said:

They are toying with my emotions. 20 of the player reps need to vote yes for the proposal to go to a general vote. 

 

Of course, they are. Players aren't stupid. The PA reps the top 10% of players only. It's a shame association. When it came time to start getting paid, the players want their money. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by HtownHorn

[Biff Tannen 46069]

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

6 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

They kicked that can down the road

 

I saw that. My contention is that they were never going to let the issue cost them actual money... and they didn't.  I know you got that- was just re-iterating.

I would think that they trade the international draft for getting rid of the QO- but to my shock ownership was not actually trying to fuck over the international guys as there was going to be more money in the pool- they are truly trying to 1) Get a handle on a disgusting process and 2) spread out the talent to lower end teams so as to enhance competitive balance. Occasionally they do something right by total accident.  

The players, I think, reflexively were against the idea of giving the owners anything they wanted, but some of the latin players have a point that even though it's gross and disgusting what is going on down there it does work on some level in the sense that the trainers are motivated to take in the players, condition them, pump them full of steroids at 13 years old, warehouse them and then take 1/2 their signing bonus for that pleasure (wait, what was I saying about the players having a point in keeping it the way it is?)

OK- start over. The players know that "THEY" made it through the system into the big leagues so everything attendant to that "worked" for them, so it was worth it.  You don't want 12 year old Dominican kids to no longer get trained, so there needs to probably be some sort of infrastructure spend by MLB to turn that into the equivalent of complex league down there for the 12-15 year old kids in front of the draft at 16.  They "trainers" can decide to work for MLB in the complex league for a reasonable salary or they could decide not to and we can import people there to do that work.  That seems like the sane way to handle what is a mess.  I guess there is the question of how much is the infrastructure going to cost for the complexes and the like (and I'm sure MLB will pay pentagon type prices) but it seems like something that could be done as a rounding error for mlb.  Set up 10 of these camps for 20 or 30 million and call it a day- guys come from all over to live and train there (and do some schooling and learning English) before they are draft eligible (just like we currently do with signed players in the Dominican league) and even if the guys don't make it/get drafted they still are probably better off in life than wherever they came from and would be otherwise.  MLB could do a little good in this set up.  

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

OH- I like the anti tanking draft too.  Top 6 picks in a lottery.  Should encourage teams not to try to lose 110 games anymore.  The Astros benefited from being early adaptors to that- which was smart and completely within the rules, but it didn't make baseball more fun or enjoyable.  I like them implementing that draft. 

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

20 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Your shit just keeps getting stupider.

Dude, it's almost like it happened almost exactly the way I said it would  (granted- 24 hours later than it should have b/c baseball can't resist sticking their dick in a cheese grater). 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[David Dennison 19442]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Ok- then how does this represent "baseball is killing itself" in any way, shape or form?  This labor dispute won't even be noticed by the casual fans. The season got pushed back a week. It doesn't matter.  They had an acrimonious negotiation during the offseason.  If you were paying attention to it then you are not a casual fan, but rather a die hard. If you are a die hard this free agency period will be fun, spring training always dragged too long, and the baseball season being back to starting in April, after the end of the NCAA tournament puts it back in the spot on the schedule it should have always been. I don't like my baseball bumping up against my NCAA tournament- which it would have done if it didn't get bumped back.  It's all good. Be happy.  5 more years of labor peace, and some stuff that should make the game a lot better (pitch clocks) some stuff that will make the game a little better (bigger bases, banning of the shift), as well as some stuff that makes it more fair (universal DH- the NL teams were at a big disadvantage in interleague and WS games, younger players getting a little more money, international draft if that happens).

That's not a bad outcome to an absolutely ugly process.  

It means baseball is going to be less popular than MLS one day and that bums me out.

[Wulaw Horn 19563]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

It means baseball is going to be less popular than MLS one day and that bums me out.

First- I seriously doubt that- American's just aren't into minor league sports, and on the world stage that is what MLS is. Could I envision a world where we had some places join the premiere league and that outdo baseball?  Sure. That could conceivably happen.  But the MLS won't ever be bigger than MLB.

 

Second- you said baseball is killing itself- and my direct question is- in your mind- how do you believe that it is killing itself?  IF you site this deal taking a couple weeks longer to get done than it should have and postponing 1 season by 7 calendar days)  I'm going to scream and punch something.  If it's something else then make it about that something else.  

In this deal baseball did some good things to make itself better.  Is it enough?  Probably not.  But it's always going to be an incremental change kind of thing.
 

And my goodness am I happy they got rid of the fucking ghost runners and 7 inning DH'ers. 

Do something to get the average gametime back to about 2:45 and I will be orgasmic.  

[henrygandorf 29223]

41 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The Astros benefited from being early adaptors to that- which was smart and completely within the rules, but it didn't make baseball more fun or enjoyable.

it made milb more enjoyable.

[David Dennison 19442]

25 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

First- I seriously doubt that- American's just aren't into minor league sports, and on the world stage that is what MLS is. Could I envision a world where we had some places join the premiere league and that outdo baseball?  Sure. That could conceivably happen.  But the MLS won't ever be bigger than MLB.

 

Second- you said baseball is killing itself- and my direct question is- in your mind- how do you believe that it is killing itself?  IF you site this deal taking a couple weeks longer to get done than it should have and postponing 1 season by 7 calendar days)  I'm going to scream and punch something.  If it's something else then make it about that something else.  

In this deal baseball did some good things to make itself better.  Is it enough?  Probably not.  But it's always going to be an incremental change kind of thing.
 

And my goodness am I happy they got rid of the fucking ghost runners and 7 inning DH'ers. 

Do something to get the average gametime back to about 2:45 and I will be orgasmic.  

I just want baseball to be more popular, dag nabbit!

I am in awe at how much of the sports entertainment universe is dominated by the NFL, a sport that only plays five months out of the year but manages to be the main topic of discussion for twelve. It's amazing what they've accomplished.