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OSHA Vax Mandate Legal Challenges

Anastasis

By Anastasis
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C-Man

C-Man 27058

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I work for one of the largest independent insurance brokerages in the world (well over 12,000 employees across the US and Canada). We got the email from our COTB yesterday stating that all employees are required to get the vaccine -- or submit to weekly testing -- by Dec 6th.

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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Posted
7 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

The contractor law is toothless as written.  It’s also ridiculous in many aspects, like requiring vaccines for remote workers who never come into the workplace.  

That's not ridiculous if the purpose of the law is to increase the productivity and decrease the absences of contractors, which is stated in the EO:

These safeguards will decrease the spread of COVID-19, which will decrease worker absence, reduce labor costs, and improve the efficiency of contractors and subcontractors at sites where they are performing work for the Federal Government.

 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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10 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

That's not ridiculous if the purpose of the law is to increase the productivity and decrease the absences of contractors, which is stated in the EO:

These safeguards will decrease the spread of COVID-19, which will decrease worker absence, reduce labor costs, and improve the efficiency of contractors and subcontractors at sites where they are performing work for the Federal Government.

 

I’m vaxxed and took a booster yesterday.  So I’m fully onboard supporting vaccines.  But I think trying to make remote workers get jabbed is fucking ridiculous.  If adults don’t want to get vaxxed, that’s their choice.  I think it’s dumb.  But there are a lot of far more dangerous choices than that we don’t legislate against.  
 

Maybe I’m wrong and if so please let me know, but my understanding is that the vaccines mainly just almost perfectly stop the shot taker from dying or getting sick enough to be hospitalized.  But people with the vaccine still spread it. 
 

I’m one of the types that stopped worrying and thinks everyone else should stop worrying about Covid once the vax was widely available.  Which was like 8 months ago. 

I know kids were only approved recently.  But the flu kills more kids than Covid, so my kids and all of their friends have been living normally since that data was known 18 months ago.  The people who are terrified about their kids getting Covid — I just don’t understand that.  
 

Some covid doomers just can’t let it go and act like it’s the bubonic plague. 
 

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19092

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On 11/10/2021 at 7:30 AM, Satoshi said:

How do you feel about the executive branch ignoring checks and balances?

This makes sense and explains why the administration is essentially telling businesses to proceed. Much like the eviction moratorium they know it’s doomed so the juice is going to come from the interim period where it’s in limbo. 

When it was your guy in the White House, you completely supported him ignoring the checks and balances.  Hell, you probably cheered the domestic terrorists who stormed the Capitol if you were not there yourself.  You are a troll.  

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

How are you still posting here?  Seriously?  Are your friends Johnny Sack of Shit, Bravo, and Incredulity keeping you around?  You are a troll and should be treated as such. 

You seem to be an unhappy person, and I guess your pleasure in life is trying to hall monitor the cloak room to ban people who disagree with you.  
 

 

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19092

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10 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You seem to be an unhappy person, and I guess your pleasure in life is trying to hall monitor the cloak room to ban people who disagree with you.  
 

 

I am ok to debate people who don’t agree.  But you and your friends don’t want to debate.  You just want to scream that you are right and we are wrong.  You especially used to be a decent poster, but something has completely broken you.  I’m sad for you.  But anyone who continues to troll, yep, I will call them out on it.  

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

But people with the vaccine still spread it. 

Less likely, because less likely to get it in the first place..

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated

But the logic of the at-home workers having to get it isn't about spreading so much as it is remaining healthy.  The federal govt. does not want you to miss work.  Therefore, the federal government wants you to remain as healthy as you can.  Therefore, it's seems completely logical for them to require that you do the most to avoid COVID, and that means getting vaccinated.

Within their rights to require you to do fitness training, etc., if there is a link between that and them being less likely to get sick. 

The ADA would protect anyone who couldn't meat more stringent safety requirements.  

 

 

 

Edited by tantric superman
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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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5 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Less likely, because less likely to get it in the first place..

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated

But the logic of the at-home workers having to get it isn't about spreading so much as it is remaining healthy.  The federal govt. does not want you to miss work.  Therefore, the federal government wants you to remain as healthy as you can.  Therefore, it's seems completely logical for them to require that you do the most to avoid COVID, and that means getting vaccinated.

Within their rights to require you to do fitness training, etc., if there is a link between that and them being less likely to get sick. 

The ADA would protect anyone who couldn't meat more stringent safety requirements.  

 

 

 

I think we are at the point people should have freedom to do what they want.  It isn’t the bubonic plague.  It’s very survivable if you get jabbed.  If people don’t want to, let them.  Maybe they’ll learn.   Hospitals aren’t getting overrun now.  
 

It is time to move on.  

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I think we are at the point people should have freedom to do what they want.  It isn’t the bubonic plague.  It’s very survivable if you get jabbed.  If people don’t want to, let them.  Maybe they’ll learn.   Hospitals aren’t getting overrun now.  
 

It is time to move on

Then move on.  There is no consitutional right not to wear a mask or to be vaccinated and OSHA is empowered to regulate businesses that engage in interstate commerce. 

https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavirus/we-are-at-capacity-michigan-hospitals-seeing-another-rise-in-covid-19-patients

Edited by tantric superman
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workswithseed

workswithseed 2037

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I think we are at the point people should have freedom to do what they want.  It isn’t the bubonic plague.  It’s very survivable if you get jabbed.  If people don’t want to, let them.  Maybe they’ll learn.   Hospitals aren’t getting overrun now.  
 

It is time to move on.  

We even have a pill for after getting sick.

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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And Johnny Sack, had that cocksucker Donald Trump actually championed the vaccine we might have been in a situation where we could have reached herd immunity and no hospital concerns without any mandates.

So while I sympathize and agree that your approach would have been best, the fucking GOP and it's knuckledraggers fucked that one up good.

 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23394

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Posted (edited)

Was posted on the other thread: https://reason.com/volokh/2021/12/17/breaking-6th-circuit-dissolves-5th-circuit-stay-in-osha-mandate-case/

6th circuit ruling here: https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/386-Order-Granting-Govts-Mtn-to-Dissolve-Admin-Stay.pdf

Some high quality snark in that ruling, having just skimmed it.

Next stop, SCOTUS. 

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

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Only followed the twitter commentary but it seems like these were really bad even by the normal low standard of SCOTUS oral arguments. Conservative justices are basically all Fox News pilled and only Gorsuch was even capable of pretending his concerns were about a serious legal objection.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23394

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5 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

So you think it was a bad look for the Ohio Solicitor General argue (by phone) that Covid isn't a serious workplace danger . . . when he isn't allowed in the fucking Supreme Court building because he has motherfucking Covid?

Is it a good or bad look wrt specific issues here that he is both vaccinated and boosted?

 

His positivity was picked up by PCR which will trigger positive for a long time after acute recovery or asymptomatic infection, FWIW.   

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

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1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

My understanding is the conservatives gripe have less to do with the actual Mandate, then basically cooking up a reason to begin dismantling the federal administrative state.

Yes. Gorsuch is leading the charge on it and the other conservatives have varying levels of comfort with its implications, but are largely in agreement with him. They're trying with this and future cases to figure out how far they should go in creating/expanding the non-delegation and major questions doctrines, which are extremely silly doctrines that don't withstand any real scrutiny, but they need some legal-seeming pretext to effect their political goal of dismantling the federal government (except for immigration and military stuff, of course).

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15492

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6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Is it a good or bad look wrt specific issues here that he is both vaccinated and boosted?

 

His positivity was picked up by PCR which will trigger positive for a long time after acute recovery or asymptomatic infection, FWIW.   

It reflects why everyone needs to be fully vaccinated.  Because if he goes into the office, he can transmit it to unvaccinated coworkers.  But if everyone is fully vaccinated, then the effect of that is not particularly dangerous.

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yes. Gorsuch is leading the charge on it and the other conservatives have varying levels of comfort with its implications, but are largely in agreement with him. They're trying with this and future cases to figure out how far they should go in creating/expanding the non-delegation and major questions doctrines, which are extremely silly doctrines that don't withstand any real scrutiny, but they need some legal-seeming pretext to effect their political goal of dismantling the federal government (except for immigration and military stuff, of course).

You're right--dismantling the federal government is the real objective here.  It's just all FedSoc bullshit under a veneer of culture-war bullshit.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23394

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2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It reflects why everyone needs to be fully vaccinated.  Because if he goes into the office, he can transmit it to unvaccinated coworkers.  But if everyone is fully vaccinated, then the effect of that is not particularly dangerous.

Seems to me to suggest that a testing protocol is a more effective tool at avoiding workplace transmission of cases in the setting of omicron. Testing is what kept him out of the court room and protected others from potential transmission, not a vaccination. 

Edited by Anastasis
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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

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Posted
Just now, Anastasis said:

Seems to me to suggest that a testing protocol is a more effective tool at avoiding workplace transmission of cases in the setting of omicron. Testing is what kept him out of the court room, not a vaccination. 

The OSHA policy IS a testing protocol.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13414

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CNN.com saying Alito wants a stay of a few days to allow the court more time to consider. I assume he wants a few more days to figure out a legal reason to dismantle the mandate.

I get that SCOTUS justices may not like the mandate but the idea is not to query their personal opinions about a matter but settle the legal question. If the conservative branch of the court takes down the mandate, I'm looking forward to the Fox News team discussing judicial activism about that decision.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9905

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7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

CNN.com saying Alito wants a stay of a few days to allow the court more time to consider. I assume he wants a few more days to figure out a legal reason to dismantle the mandate.

I get that SCOTUS justices may not like the mandate but the idea is not to query their personal opinions about a matter but settle the legal question. If the conservative branch of the court takes down the mandate, I'm looking forward to the Fox News team discussing judicial activism about that decision.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31283

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Just now, Dutchrudder said:

That was probably a mistake on her part, given that there are currently over 100k people currently hospitalized for Covid in the US.  

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has a fairly bad habit of taking notice of erroneous extrajudicial facts and factoids.  On both sides of the "aisle."

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Is testing required of the vaccinated?

No, vaccinated get an exception. This is irrelevant to the legal discussion though. The question, to the extent we take it seriously, is essentially whether Congress authorized OSHA to implement anything to protect against the spread of Covid in the workplace. 29 USC 655(C) provides that "the Secretary shall provide, without regard to the requirements of chapter 5 of title 5 (these are the standard notice and comment requirements), for an emergency temporary standard to take immediate effect...if he determines (A) that employees are exposed to grave danger from exposure to substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or from new hazards, and (B) that such emergency standard is necessary to protect employees from such danger."

 So one could try arguing that (1) COVID isn't a grave danger, or (2) that a virus isn't a toxic substance or agent, or even (3) that the emergency standard isn't "necessary" to protect employees. But 1 is obviously bullshit and they don't want to write an opinion dismissing the danger of something that's killed nearly six million people in two years. 2 is a pretty silly to hang such a big decision on. And the best argument for 3 is that actually, the policy doesn't do enough to protect employees, but if you're going to say that then it follows that actually OSHA is authorized to take even stricter measures. 

Plus, this isn't a hearing about the merits, but about whether a stay should be granted. So they're supposed to be balancing harms, and right in the middle of another spike it's pretty fucking clear how a decision balancing the harm of vaccines or testing at work vs. no vaccines or testing at work should come out. 

Edited by wildcat09
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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11115

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Lots of “mistakes”

https://twitter.com/emilybrooksnews/status/1479502703575412740?s=21

Is this supposed to be something informative? You're reposting the same thing you posted. There are currently over 100,000 Americans hospitalized in the US, regardless of age. Some portion of those are children under 18, but not 100k as she misstated. Is it really that difficult for you to see the minor error in what she said?  She's not reading from a teleprompter. 

The argument she was making was that there is a significant number of people hospitalized, and that vaccines help prevent hospitalization. The mandate helps prevent workers from missing work, increasing the overcrowded occupancy of hospitals, and reduces the load on the state's medical system. That argument is valid whether or not you take that one snippet out of context to harp on an obvious mistake. 

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Don Johnson

Don Johnson 4745

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Posted
Just now, Dutchrudder said:

Is this supposed to be something informative? You're reposting the same thing you posted. There are currently over 100,000 Americans hospitalized in the US, regardless of age. Some portion of those are children under 18, but not 100k as she misstated. Is it really that difficult for you to see the minor error in what she said?  She's not reading from a teleprompter. 

The argument she was making was that there is a significant number of people hospitalized, and that vaccines help prevent hospitalization. The mandate helps prevent workers from missing work, increasing the overcrowded occupancy of hospitals, and reduces the load on the state's medical system. That argument is valid whether or not you take that one snippet out of context to harp on an obvious mistake. 

She additionally said Omicron is as deadly as delta. 

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

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1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

She additionally said Omicron is as deadly as delta. 

That's not even necessarily wrong. It might end up being deadlier in total numbers even if it isn't as severe for most who get it, given its increased transmission. Meanwhile Gorsuch claimed the flu kills hundreds of thousands of people a year. 

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9905

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3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

She additionally said Omicron is as deadly as delta. 

You are, in effect, making a point of why this should not be in front of the court right now: the Justices are woefully ill equipped to be making decisions ultimately affecting public health during a health crisis. And they should particularly not be doing so based on theoretical concepts of law not actually written into the constitution.  The court should be showing incredible deference to Congress and the Administration on this instance, since it is absolutely not equipped to involve itself in matters of day to day governance. 

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Don Johnson

Don Johnson 4745

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4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

That's not even necessarily wrong. It might end up being deadlier in total numbers even if it isn't as severe for most who get it, given its increased transmission. Meanwhile Gorsuch claimed the flu kills hundreds of thousands of people a year. 

Lol. Using that rationale, Omicron “might” end up being less deadly than the flu so I have no problem with what Gorsuch said. 

Come on, no one who has kept up with this believes Omicron is as deadly as Delta.  Vaccinated or unvaccinated, which one would you rather have?

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29258

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1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

Lol. Using that rationale, Omicron “might” end up being less deadly than the flu so I have no problem with what Gorsuch said. 

Come on, no one who has kept up with this believes Omicron is as deadly as Delta.  Vaccinated or unvaccinated, which one would you rather have?

In this context, who gives a shit?

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