“Real” vs Electric piano

[Superhero 8902]

I somehow inherited a Schafer and Sons upright piano when my aunt died.

My kids have piano lessons and it is painful to listen to them practice. I occasionally want to play it at night after the kids go to sleep but don’t want it wake them up. Volume control would be great (for me).

So I’m thinking of selling it and getting a weighted 88-keyboard instead.

Am I crazy? And if not, gimme some recommendations.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Superhero

[Deej 77296]

[smuggs 9359]

 

[Paul Wesley 3303]

A real piano will inspire your kids in a way that an electronic keyboard will not.  There is something about a real, actual string vibrating that resonates in the soul.  Sound coming out of a speaker doesn't do it.

Get a 72-key keyboard as a do-not-disturb option, but don't sell the real thing.

My .02

[jimmyjazz 46526]

Plus, your kids should get past the "painful" stage fairly quickly.

[phdhorn 6224]

Personal opinion:  Uprights - yecch.
Not to say they can't be well made, but most of those old manufactured pianos are blech.  The sound can be good, but the action isn't reliant on gravity and they can be a mess to restore.

If your piano is in top condition and works, I guess you can keep it.

However, digital pianos nowadays are so good they're worth the money and in some cases, you have to be pretty trained on the instrument to tell the sound differences between acoustic grands and digitals.  Also, it's a misnomer that pianos appreciate with age - the opposite is true.  So don't keep it for "antique value."  It won't have all that much, unless it's in tip-top shape.

If it were me, I'd get a digital no matter what.  The sound and action on today's good ones are for the money phenomenal.  And in some cases even trained pianists can't tell the difference (especially on tape/recorded).  I have one from 1990 and have never looked back.  Sure I'd love a grand in here, but this has more than served my purposes and I've played on/off professionally for decades.

Suggestions would be to start with the Yamahas for sure.  I'm partial to Yamaha grands over any other, and the Yamaha digitals are incredibly good now.  I wouldn't get sucked into buying one with tons of amenities (knobs and doo-hickey sound effects), but yeah, they're worth it.  You can decide if you want a "furniture" type (full console that often can be removed anyway), or simply a keyboard (buy a stand).  As you suggested, the overwhelming advantage is you can plug in headphones and/or turn down sound.  Plus if you do get one with some effects, the kids might actually be more drawn to playing it (kids nowadays and their e-stuff).

You can look at things like the Yamaha PT or Arius series for less expensive ones, or the Clavinova series for more pricey (and frankly absolutely incredible) ones.  I have an old Clavinova with 1990 technology and it still rocks - and is as solid as the day I bought it.  Look at this for a primer:

https://acousticrealm.com/best-yamaha-digital-piano

In the end if you keep the old upright, you'll do okay, but never say the digitals can't sound and play like the real ones.  They're damn close if not on mark.

Edit:  Oh, and I'd always suggest 88 (full) keys... in the old days they had trouble e-duping the highest and lowest notes on the piano keyboard, but nowadays they've nailed it down.

Edited November 10, 2021 by phdhorn

[Paul Wesley 3303]

2 hours ago, phdhorn said:

If it were me, I'd get a digital no matter what.  The sound and action on today's good ones are for the money phenomenal.  And in some cases even trained pianists can't tell the difference (especially on tape/recorded). 

Tricking people on a recording (software vs real instrument) is easy, because you're comparing the sound of something through a speaker to the sound of something else through a speaker.   But if you brought us into someone's living room blindfolded and made us guess if we were hearing a digital keyboard though consumer-grade speakers or a real piano, we'd hear and feel the difference 1000 times out of 1000.  

 I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  But if the question is "What would inspire my kids?" then my answer is a real piano - even a crappy low-value upright like the one that inspired me.

 

edit to add:  if the kids are making a lot of noise on it, then I'd say they're inspired.  They'll either get better or give it up.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Paul Wesley

[tbone_ 14299]

My kiddo has a Yamaha p125. Weighted keys and sounds really good to my ears.

If I was in your shoes I’d keep the upright. But if you go digital this is a great option IMO.

[gsoda3 3315]

i grew up a concert pianist, always played on uprights or grands.  FF a decade later, we bought an electric when my oldest started playing.  a yamaha ydp 161.  at the time he was 5 and we had a 2 and 1 year old so we wanted to be able to control the volume level.  the action feels like a real piano.  the sound is great.  there's not much difference b/t it and a real piano.  the software is so good if you close your eyes and listen to it it sounds virtually identical.  we liked it so much when we bought a second piano (our oldest three all play and splitting practice time on one piano was terrible) we bought another digital.

[phdhorn 6224]

32 minutes ago, Paul Wesley said:

Tricking people on a recording (software vs real instrument) is easy, because you're comparing the sound of something through a speaker to the sound of something else through a speaker.   But if you brought us into someone's living room blindfolded and made us guess if we were hearing a digital keyboard though consumer-grade speakers or a real piano, we'd hear and feel the difference 1000 times out of 1000.  

 I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  But if the question is "What would inspire my kids?" then my answer is a real piano - even a crappy low-value upright like the one that inspired me.

See, I'm the opposite... of course I love to hit a grand first choice (who doesn't?) but I grew up partly on a big upright and hated it.  You're always facing the wall and it's just confining to me.  Once I got a digital it was like a new day.  And again the Yamaha I have is so alike to their grands (and I've played a lot of 'em) that I prospered.

Don't get me wrong - he's got a free piano and sure, why not use it?  But other things considered, I would never rule out a good digital and piano is my main instrument.  How people "take" or "feel" with one or the other is probably subjective to the max.

If he wants the convenience of a volume (or headphone) controlled instrument, digital is great for that.

I can afford a "real" grand (humblebrag) but honestly I like the digital enough that I don't want to jack with the weight and space. Maybe some day, but for now I'm very happy (and i've played pro off/on in my career).  So a casual family it works just as good.

I guess my main point is that the old upright isn't necessarily "the choice" just because it's acoustic.  It takes $$ to keep tuning and keep fit.  And I'm not worried about technology making my keyboard obsolete; it's 30 years old and works fantastically as a - piano!  The newer ones only improve on that.

As to recording, maybe it's semantics, but I don't think using digital instruments are trying to trick anyone.  My guess is that 90% of recordings today use digital pianos or keys.  In a room where you're giving a Schumann recital, maybe you can tell.  But even there sometimes it's tough.   Here's a very good YouTube video from a guy that makes a lot of sense.  Granted, he's asking you to tell the difference through computer speakers (which renders his point sort of moot).  But he still makes some interesting arguments (and he's more or less impartial).  If nothing else, it's kind of an interesting watch:
 

 

[BrickHorn 18333]

My advice: burn your piano and buy your kids guitars and loud, British-voiced amps.

[Deej 77296]

Digital vs. real pianos? I thought the tube vs. digital guitar amps brought out the cork sniffers, but I'm going to have to go visit some piano forums for the lulz. 

[Paul Wesley 3303]

I'm not anti-digital or anti-keyboard.  I own weighted and semi-weighted keys, plus a few rack mount libraries and a one or two software libraries.  They're amazing.  But if I had a 7-year old who was showing any kind of interest, I'd make sure I had a "real" option...whether a crap upright or a 9-foot grand.  

And yes, that guy's comparison video is a COMPLETELY different question.  I will absolutely concede that the difference between "real" through a speaker and "digital" through that very same speaker is negligible.

But if you were ****in the room**** with him, and he played a beautiful piece of music, the difference in EMOTIONAL CONTENT between the sound of a 7-foot grand vs the sound of a little 6.5" speaker (no matter how good the modeling) -- that difference is gargantuan.

 

[Paul Wesley 3303]

29 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

My advice: burn your piano and buy your kids guitars and loud, British-voiced amps.

[CooterBrown 18116]

Trade the piano for an electric guitar.

[atomheartbevo 90143]

9 hours ago, Superhero said:

I somehow inherited a Schafer and Sons upright piano when my aunt died.

7 hours ago, Paul Wesley said:

A real piano will inspire your kids in a way that an electronic keyboard will not.  There is something about a real, actual string vibrating that resonates in the soul.  Sound coming out of a speaker doesn't do it.

Get a 72-key keyboard as a do-not-disturb option, but don't sell the real thing.

My .02

What PW said.  I'm always in favor of keeping family heirlooms as well (depending on how long she owned it or if it was passed down) as the kids may like the idea of having it (if they were close to it).

But there is something about real pianos and kids - when we inherited one (very expensive upright Yamaha), they had a hard time of not messing with it when passing by - no turning anything on or anything, just being able to play instantly.

 

[dcbc 14573]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Trade the piano for an electric guitar.

Based on recent experience, people aren't paying Squire money for pianos these days.  I'd vote keep the piano and build a double walled, sound proofed room around it for late night playing. 

/wish I had room for my mom's old baby grand.  But we do have an upright grand that's a pain to tune because someone converted it to a player at some point.

[jimmyjazz 46526]

I used to have a nice Yamaha U1 upright.  (I never felt phd's claustrophobia with uprights.)  Got married, my wife had a "prettier" Wurlitzer, smaller soundboard, but prettier, so whatever.  Sold the U1 to Tony of Fastball.  

Even that Wurlitzer kicks the daylights out of my good Yamaha electric triggering world-class samples.  I'm sorry, they're just not the same thing to a player.  (No offense to phd, he is clearly a player, but in my experience, his opinion is an outlier, but I will respect it.)

I can stick a Shure SM57 over that craptastic Wurlitzer and track a more musical take than I can ever get with the Yamaha triggering what the fuck ever.  Maybe it's just me.

[Rimbo 26482]

I kinda agree with both jazz and phd here. There's definitely a trade-off. The good digitals are so much better than they used to be, and they're so much more convenient than a real piano.

But a good real piano will do things naturally a computer must be trained, badly, to do.

[Deej 77296]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

What PW said.  I'm always in favor of keeping family heirlooms as well (depending on how long she owned it or if it was passed down) as the kids may like the idea of having it (if they were close to it).

But there is something about real pianos and kids - when we inherited one (very expensive upright Yamaha), they had a hard time of not messing with it when passing by - no turning anything on or anything, just being able to play instantly.

 

Yep. We had a "real" piano in the house growing up. Also had an electric keyboard. The real thing was irresistible.

[atomheartbevo 90143]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Yep. We had a "real" piano in the house growing up. Also had an electric keyboard. The real thing was irresistible.

My kids briefly took lessons with an older neighbor on her electric keyboard a few years ago, and they liked to fiddle with shit on the keyboard and change the instruments/sounds/volume/etc.  Really easy for them to get distracted.

When the covid hit and the neighbor decided she was going to stop doing lessons for the time being, my wife decided to take over and with our piano, they just focus on the lessons in front of them.  We have them do one lesson or another pretty much every day, but anytime we take them somewhere where there's an electric piano/etc., they just want to fuck with it and change the sounds (and they do this with some piano apps on their iPads).

I don't think they'd know how to read sheet music by now if we had an electric keyboard, just way too tempting to screw around on one.

[atomheartbevo 90143]

5 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Trade the piano for an electric guitar.

Just make sure they learn how to play properly and can read sheet music.  I had this conversation a while back:

Son: Dad, why do you play bass?  You like guitars.

Me: Because I can't read sheet music.

 

That and I suck at guitar, but he doesn't need to know that yet, he'll realize it someday.

[ztejas 43777]

I'll play a crappy upright over an electric any day. Unless it's a really nice electric. Like multi-thousand dollar. 

It mainly has to do with feel - not sound. 

[gsoda3 3315]

23 hours ago, Superhero said:

I somehow inherited a Schafer and Sons upright piano when my aunt died.

My kids have piano lessons and it is painful to listen to them practice. I occasionally want to play it at night after the kids go to sleep but don’t want it wake them up. Volume control would be great (for me).

So I’m thinking of selling it and getting a weighted 88-keyboard instead.

Am I crazy? And if not, gimme some recommendations.

lots of opinions on here but the only way you'll answer your question is to go to a music store and try out the electric pianos yourself.  i recommend the yamahas.  

[tbone_ 14299]

You guys that are anti electric pianos are clearly only familiar with fizzy solid state electric pianos. Gets a real tube electric piano and you’ll see what’s what.

[Underdog 28891]

Owned a Wurlitzer years ago even though I can’t play, loved the sound of it just fucking around with it.  Almost bought a CP-80   Yamaha electric piano when out in LA years ago, but shipping was going to cost me an arm and leg to send it to Austin. 

 

[ztejas 43777]

6 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

i recommend the yamahas.  

For the price I agree. Always thought Yamaha did a really good job emulating/creating the right keyboard action. 

5 hours ago, tbone_ said:

You guys that are anti electric pianos are clearly only familiar with fizzy solid state electric pianos. Gets a real tube electric piano and you’ll see what’s what.

Plenty electrics sound good. It's the feel/touch that most of them can't get right - or as good as even a meh upright. Unless, like I said, you're going to shell out a couple grand (or at least into the $1,000s).

Rereading I think @Paul Wesleyand @jimmyjazz both have a similar stance as I do. There's just something more intimate about a real piano - even if it "sounds" worse. But on the flipside of the argument I can see where @gsoda3 is coming from as a classically trained pianist - because when it comes to emulating pitch and tone even a lower end digital is going to come a lot closer. It really is preference like most things musically. If you're trying to nail a Mozart sonata with a pair of nice headphones on and don't want to break the bank a nice electric might be more up your alley. But if I'm trying to rock out some chord progressions and beat the keys into submission give me a dusty out of tune upright all day. 

Also - you can't use a real piano as a MIDI controller. But your kids should be a ways away from that. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13597]

I will never move a real piano in my life again. And by that I mean my friend will never help me move a real (free!) piano in my life again.

[Superhero 8902]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:07 PM, Paul Wesley said:

I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  But if the question is "What would inspire my kids?" then my answer is a real piano - even a crappy low-value upright like the one that inspired me.

edit to add:  if the kids are making a lot of noise on it, then I'd say they're inspired.  They'll either get better or give it up.

My kids play because of their tiger mom (and dad) want them to. My daughter plays okay, but her phrasing and dynamics are awful. But occasionally she’ll surprise us and play some random chords and notes that sound good together.

My son is younger and just bangs every note from the beginning of each song to the bitter end. 

My wife wants to keep the piano (because it’s free). Maybe as the kids get older they’ll already be inspired enough to play on an electric.

 

[withinyourreach 22]

I bought a Yamaha digital 2 years ago, and I love playing it, way more than the Young Chang grand piano it replaced.  It has 15 voicings, and about 6 of them are useful and sound unique.

The best feature is the is the volume dial for playing at night.

 

 

[Chad Fuck 17900]

On 11/14/2021 at 6:58 PM, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

I will never move a real piano in my life again. And by that I mean my friend will never help me move a real (free!) piano in my life again.

Weird flex, but having moved many pianos in my day, one I can relate to.

[jimmyjazz 46526]

I babysat a big upright for a friend some time ago, and when he was able to take it back, I called some piano movers to get it out of my house.  Two wiry little dudes, like 5'4" and 110# each, showed up.  I was thinking "uh oh".

Those guys picked that piano up like it was a filing cabinet.  I mean, it was absolutely nothing for them.  I knew then I had made the right choice in going to grad school.

[Chad Fuck 17900]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I babysat a big upright for a friend some time ago, and when he was able to take it back, I called some piano movers to get it out of my house.  Two wiry little dudes, like 5'4" and 110# each, showed up.  I was thinking "uh oh".

Those guys picked that piano up like it was a filing cabinet.  I mean, it was absolutely nothing for them.  I knew then I had made the right choice in going to grad school.

My first job out of college was as a mover, in Denton.  There's a fair number of musicians in that town.  I think I moved a piano for all of them.  Best shape I've ever been in in my life.  I was so glad when I got accepted to grad school.*

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Chad Fuck
*almost all the guys I worked with were grad students. Then there was the one guy who lived in a storage unit. No lie.