2022 Hall of Fame

[Hank Chinaski 6318]

6 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

HOF voters like this piss me off. In the past 3 years he’s voted for 3 players. Edgar Martinez, Rivera and Jeter. 

 

Rolen: .281/.364/.490; 122 wRC+; 70 fWAR

Santo: .277/.362/.474; 126 wRC+; 71 fWAR

Molitor: .306/.369/.448; 122 wRC+; 68 fWAR

I’m not saying Rolen is a no-doubter, but this dipshit writing that he “does not compare” with HOF 3B should be grounds for losing his vote, as it is professional negligence to be that ignorant.

[Scraps 13570]

Check out this dipshit

[Hank Chinaski 6318]

10 hours ago, Scraps said:

Check out this dipshit

These imbeciles should have to provide a written rationale for their selections that should have to pass some logical threshold. For example, in this one, explain Sammy Sosa and Manny Ramirez but no Bonds. 

[Scraps 13570]

Yeah and he dropped Bonds....he had previously voted for him 

[dcar00 14351]

13 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

These imbeciles should have to provide a written rationale for their selections that should have to pass some logical threshold. For example, in this one, explain Sammy Sosa and Manny Ramirez but no Bonds. 

Sosa Ramirez Ortiz Clemens Petite but no Arod or Bonds.  too fucking hilarious.  its like he split his 10.  5 roiders and 5 non roiders

[Hank Chinaski 6318]

On 11/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, dcar00 said:

I see Dick Allen is in one of the legends groups.  against Kaat, Maris, Hodges, a few others.  

Allen OPS+ of 156 and OPS .912.  Dude could rake in a pitchers era.  RoY and MVP.  58.7 WAR in 15 years.  He should be in if they need to pick one from the group.

Kaat is close.  Maris is just too short of time period. Hodges is notable for the highest vote percentage not to get in at 63%.

I hope Minoso gets in. Great player, first Black Latin player in MLB, wasn’t eligible based on the color barrier in his 20s, years in which he likely would have produced big numbers (and did in the pro leagues he played in). I was hoping he’d get in back in ‘14 before he died. He deserves it.

Agree on Allen - it’s a short list of players with a career OPS+ over 150. His career wasn’t long, but he was a great hitter.

(Doolittle on ESPN has a great piece about Minoso today, if interested.)

[dcar00 14351]

19 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

I hope Minoso gets in. Great player, first Black Latin player in MLB, wasn’t eligible based on the color barrier in his 20s, years in which he likely would have produced big numbers (and did in the pro leagues he played in). I was hoping he’d get in back in ‘14 before he died. He deserves it.

Agree on Allen - it’s a short list of players with a career OPS+ over 150. His career wasn’t long, but he was a great hitter.

(Doolittle on ESPN has a great piece about Minoso today, if interested.)

Minoso is borderline but I can see him in. ironically I think the gimmik with him getting a hit in 76 hurts him a bit.

I think Allen is very underrated.  His OPS+ is so high because Shibe Park was one of the old death traps for power hitters. 420 and 405 to the alleys. 440 to dead center. so much so that Allen(who wasn't fast) had double digit triples 4 times.  even veterans stadium was pretty ugly.  

he only played 3 fewer years than Schmidt.  has an MVP and RoY.  he was standoffish with the press.

[Scraps 13570]

Even Heyman bringing the dumb

[Guest]

That's dumb as hell to give these guys the option of whether or not to make their ballot public.

That being said, this meathead should have marked "Fuck no."

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

Anyone who votes for bonds or Clemens but not the other is a moron and should have his ballot lit on fire while he watches it burn while tied to an ant hill. They are both top 10 all timers who are suspected of roid  abuse but never nailed on a test. It’s same same. You cannot justify a vote for one without the other. 
Any one voting for Ortiz, Ramirez or Sosa but not for Bonds, Clemens or ARod should have their voting privileges revoked and be forcibly sterilized so they can’t spread their dna further into society. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

"Standoffish with the press" is putting it mildly with Allen. IDK how much of it was a hostile media or his own personality, but my understanding of the reasoning behind Allen's exclusion is that he was a clubhouse cancer on every team he played for.

Bear in mind this was an era when Astros GM Spec Richardson pissed away Joe Morgan and the Astros shot at being the Big Orange Machine of the 1970s by pretty much claiming same, so I dunno.

[Scraps 13570]

[Hank Chinaski 6318]

10 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

Really glad Minoso got in. Agree with Passan here about Allen. His 155 career wRC+ puts him in the company of Willie Mays, Frank Thomas, Frank Robinson, etc. That’s the kind of company he was in as a hitter - the elite. 

[Guest Lobo]

Gil Hodges should not be in the Hall of Fame.  Probably the best all-around 1b of the 1950's, but for a hitting position---he didn't break 2000 hits, 1300 rbi, 300 doubles, or 400 hr's.  He hit .300+ only twice. .273/.359/..846 are good but not Cooperstown good for a 1b.  

It also annoys me in "Field of Dreams" when young Archie Graham gets to the field in Iowa.  And he notices Gil Hodges and remarks about him.  Moonlight was almost dead by the time Gil Hodges became a recognizable ballplayer, he was barely born when Archie took to the midwest to find a team to play for.

Kaat and Minoso probably deserve to be in after all this time.  Congrats to them.  csb/ Minoso used to come in all the time to my mom's restaurant in the early 90's. 

[Scraps 13570]

Buck O'Neil is in too

[Hank Chinaski 6318]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Gil Hodges should not be in the Hall of Fame.  Probably the best all-around 1b of the 1950's, but for a hitting position---he didn't break 2000 hits, 1300 rbi, 300 doubles, or 400 hr's.  He hit .300+ only twice. .273/.359/..846 are good but not Cooperstown good for a 1b.  

It also annoys me in "Field of Dreams" when young Archie Graham gets to the field in Iowa.  And he notices Gil Hodges and remarks about him.  Moonlight was almost dead by the time Gil Hodges became a recognizable ballplayer, he was barely born when Archie took to the midwest to find a team to play for.

Kaat and Minoso probably deserve to be in after all this time.  Congrats to them.  csb/ Minoso used to come in all the time to my mom's restaurant in the early 90's. 

I hate to say it, because I’ve no interest in denigrating Hodges (I know that’s not what your intent is either) but Allen was pretty clearly the better player. I know Hodges also was the manager of the iconic ‘69 Mets, and that should count for something, and he was a damn good player too. But he wasn’t in Allen’s class as a hitter (when you account for the eras in which they played) and wasn’t more valuable defensively. Anyway, I don’t so much have an issue with Hodges’s inclusion per se, more of an issue with both of them being on the ballot and he getting in over Allen. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Hank Chinaski

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, Hodges is highly questionable in my book.  And that he may have ostensibly taken a committee selection spot from Dick Allen is bullshit.  

Jim Kaat was the kind of career that the committee was formed to enshrine (fun tidbit---threw over 4,500 innings and only walked 1,083 guys---2.2BB/9IP is amazing to me, less than 6% of batters facing him drew a walk).  Got no issue with him finally getting the call. 

I'm on the fence about Oliva, only put together 11 full seasons and I'm a longevity junkie.  But I can see it.  

Hodges and no Allen is bullshit.  You could switch those names tomorrow morning and other than some annoying Dodgers homers, nobody would mind one bit.

[dcar00 14351]

3 hours ago, Lobo said:

Gil Hodges should not be in the Hall of Fame.  Probably the best all-around 1b of the 1950's, but for a hitting position---he didn't break 2000 hits, 1300 rbi, 300 doubles, or 400 hr's.  He hit .300+ only twice. .273/.359/..846 are good but not Cooperstown good for a 1b.  

It also annoys me in "Field of Dreams" when young Archie Graham gets to the field in Iowa.  And he notices Gil Hodges and remarks about him.  Moonlight was almost dead by the time Gil Hodges became a recognizable ballplayer, he was barely born when Archie took to the midwest to find a team to play for.

Kaat and Minoso probably deserve to be in after all this time.  Congrats to them.  csb/ Minoso used to come in all the time to my mom's restaurant in the early 90's. 

to leave allen out and put these others in is stupid and I was a bit of a twins(kaat oliva) fan growing up.  congrats but these people are idiots.

[dcar00 14351]

the amazing thing is if you give me that list of 5 players and tell me I only have one to pick from its fucking Dick Allen by a long shot.

[Shoxthemonkey 1983]

13 hours ago, Scraps said:

Buck O'Neil is in too

It's about fucking time .

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2078]

part of the hall of fame is remembering the greatness you saw when baseball occupied all your kid brain space.  we're going to have a hall full of scott of rolenses and no mcgwire bonds and clemens.  who's going to give a fuck?  let's head to cooperstown and celebrate that guy that was the third best player on a bunch of teams!

Edited December 6, 2021 by OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Bonds and Clemens, if they don't make it in, renders the HOF pretty worthless.  Both are baseball Gods.

[dcar00 14351]

55 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Bonds and Clemens, if they don't make it in, renders the HOF pretty worthless.  Both are baseball Gods.

If Ortiz gets in, it is definitively a joke.  we probably already jumped the "Hall of Very Good" shark with Baines.  now we will jump the "Hall of Hypocrisy" shark.

[formermav43 4606]

2 hours ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

part of the hall of fame is remembering the greatness you saw when baseball occupied all your kid brain space.  we're going to have a hall full of scott of rolenses and no mcgwire bonds and clemens.  who's going to give a fuck?  let's head to cooperstown and celebrate that guy that was the third best player on a bunch of teams!

I get your point, but Rolen is not the best example. He’s very underrated (fWAR and bWAR both greater than for McGwire, for instance). He should be in in any case.

[Beau Vine 54410]

Quote

Fifteen years is a pretty long time. The last time we all went through this with Buck O’Neil, our older daughter (the one Buck called “Sunshine”) was five years old, and our younger daughter (the one Buck called “New One”) had just turned one. Buck, himself, was 94 years young, with young being the key word; he still drove that Caddy he loved so much to the Negro Leagues Museum every day, and he gave tours and told stories and hugged everybody.

“Give it up,” he used to say, and he would stretch out those arms and smile that big smile of his and people wouldn’t go in to hug him as much as they would melt into him.

Bob Kendrick and I used to say to each other around that time that while nobody lives forever, Buck was going to give it his best shot.

Fifteen years. That amount of time doesn’t ring true to me. It feels much longer ago. It also feels like yesterday. Sunshine is away at college now. New One is in the next room doing her Shakespeare assignment. Margo is standing next to me, and we are staring at the television screen, and my friend Josh Rawitch—the new president of the Baseball Hall of Fame—is on that screen, and he’s smiling. What does it mean? Would he be smiling if Buck didn’t make it? Does he have to smile no matter what news is coming?

It had already been an extraordinary announcement. Four players from the Golden Days ballot had been elected to the Hall of Fame. Each name Josh announced—Gil Hodges! Jim Kaat! Tony Oliva! Minnie Miñoso!!—sent a wild surge of joy through me. It was so much more than I expected.

Yes, we should pause for a moment to say that it hurt to have Dick Allen fall a vote short again—he also fell one vote short on the 2015 Golden Days ballot. But I actually have a couple of thoughts about that. One, you probably know about the hard math of these Hall of Fame committees. There are 16 people on the committee, and each person gets four votes. This means there are 64 votes available.

It takes 12 votes for any player to get elected, which means that the only way to get five people elected is to perfectly spread those 64 votes so that 60 of them go equally to five players. It’s a nearly impenetrable math maze.

Miñoso got 14 votes—so that’s already two extra votes. That means that for Allen to be the fifth, he basically had to get every single other vote with no more than two total votes going to Maury Wills, Ken Boyer, Roger Maris, Billy Pierce and manager Danny Murtaugh.

As it turns out, three votes went to those five men—and if I had to bet, I would bet all three went to Maury Wills, who has also come very close to being elected before. I don’t think you can blame a committee for not magically coordinating their votes when there are so many good candidates on the ballot.

Two, I believe the committee did something that is very difficult but, in my mind, essential: I believe they took into account that Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat are still alive. And I think it’s right that they did. This is a difficult topic, but we all hurt for those people who get elected after they are gone. When Josh said Minnie Miñoso’s name, the first thought was, “Yes! Finally!” But the second thought immediately rushed in: “He should have been alive for this moment.”

If Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat are Hall of Famers (and I do believe they are) then there’s no time to waste. Both men are 83 years old—they were born less than four months apart in 1938—and the next Golden Days ballot will not be for another five years. It is no fun thinking about such things; when it comes to the Hall of Fame, we prefer considering immortality to mortality. But I want to see Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat in Cooperstown giving their own speeches and soaking in all the love they’ve earned.

Back to the moment. Josh is smiling. Margo is pacing nervously. And I’m thinking about a few words that I wrote 15 years ago, words I wrote that I had long forgotten. The words from my first book, my most personal book, The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O’Neil’s America.

I talk about how long ago 15 years was: I had no earthly idea what I was doing when I wrote that book. Early Sunday, I picked up one of the two hardcover copies we still have—it had been forever since I looked at it—and I was taken by how earnest it was, how badly I had wanted to make it great. For Buck. I shot for the stars. I tried to make every sentence sing. I had titled chapters after classic songs. I Like To Recognize the Tune. I Got a Right to Sing the Blues. Blue Skies. Isn’t This a Lovely Day.

One of the chapters is called, “I’d Rather Have a Memory Than a Dream,” an old Sarah Vaughan tune:

For dreams are just imagination,
While memories are as real as you
And I’ve enough imagination
To wish that all my dreams come true

I couldn’t for the life of me remember what that chapter was about, so I went back and read it—the chapter is about the great Negro leagues pitcher and one of Buck’s closest friends, Hilton Smith. Toward the end of his life, Hilton Smith wrote letters to the Baseball Hall of Fame detailing his career. It was entirely out of character for Smith; he was a profoundly modest man who almost never even spoke about his playing days unless asked. Bob Feller thought Smith threw the best curveball in the world. But that was for other people to say.

But Hilton’s son DeMorris told me that at the end he became preoccupied with the Hall of Fame. So he wrote those letters. When the phone rang, he would hope it was the Hall of Fame calling to let him know he’d been elected.

“What does it matter?” DeMorris would ask his father. DeMorris had played in the minor leagues himself in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and he shared his father’s modesty and quiet nature. “You know how good you were.”

And Hilton Smith would look at his son and whisper, “I deserve to be there.”

In his later years O’Neil was recognized as the oldest man to play professional baseball. (Douglas Jones/Icon SMI/Icon Sport Media via Getty Images)

When I told Buck about the letters, he insisted that it couldn’t be true, that he definitely would have known if his friend had sent letters to the Hall of Fame. Maybe, he thought, Hilton Smith wrote the letters but never sent them. In any case, Hilton Smith died in 1983 at the age of 76.

He was elected to the Hall of Fame in 2001.

“I came back to Kansas City after that,” Buck told me, “and I went out to see Hilton Smith’s gravestone. I said, ‘Hilton you’re a Hall of Famer.’”

And then Buck said a few words that I wrote in the book as a little poem.

Those are the words I think of as Josh Rawitch gets ready to make the announcement.

I wish he had lived
To see that day.
He was a little sad
At the end of his life,
Just a little.
Thought he had been forgotten.
I wish he had lived
To hear them say,
”You were great.
You were one of the greatest ever.”
But I’m sure he heard it.

Josh announces that two people were elected to the Hall of Fame. And the first is Bud Fowler, the first known African-American player in organized baseball.

And as soon as he announced Bud Fowler, I knew. The second person had to be Buck. Here’s how I knew: The player on the ballot I thought most likely to be elected, other than Buck, was the great John Donaldson, who won more than 400 games in his amazing career and was, in many ways, Satchel Paige before Satchel Paige.

But as soon as Josh announced Fowler, I knew it couldn’t be Donaldson because Josh was announcing the names in alphabetical order.

This is the ridiculous way that my mind works.

Josh Rawitch then looked at the camera, and said some words about someone who was a player and a scout—and at the word “scout,” the room began spinning, and Margo began sobbing joyfully, and my phone began buzzing with texts from people all over the world. I pulled myself together enough to hear him say the name: John Jordan “Buck” O’Neil. Welcome to Cooperstown.

What a happy blur. Over the last few weeks, when I dared, I had wondered what the feeling would be like should Buck get elected. I so vividly remember the horrible feeling when he was not elected in 2006. I so vividly remember the few years after his death when people would ask me about Buck and the Hall of Fame, and I would try to talk about it but, in truth, I didn’t care anymore. To me, then, if Buck wasn’t there to enjoy it, his election to the Hall of Fame meant nothing.

So I wondered: How would it feel if he really got in this time?

And how did it feel? I won’t be able to find the words, but I can tell you that something surprising did happen. As Josh said those words—John Jordan “Buck” O’Neil—I saw Buck. I really saw him, standing there, a memory and a dream, and he was smiling. I could hear him too.

“Minnie Miñoso,” he was saying. “How about that?” And I remembered a time when he and Minnie talked about going to Cuba together.

“Jim Kaat,” he was saying. “One of the best fielding pitchers I ever saw. Yeah!”

“Gil Hodges,” he was saying. “He hit so many home runs against the Cubs when I was there.”

“Tony Oliva,” he was saying, “my hero! As good a hitter as I ever saw.” And I remembered a time when Buck asked Oliva how big that baseball looked to him when he was young and in the zone.

“It looked as big as the moon, Buck,” Oliva said. “As big as the moon.”

And, no doubt, Buck talked about how meaningful it was to have Bud Fowler elected to the Hall of Fame, and how sad it was to see John Donaldson and Dick Allen fall just short. As for himself? I couldn’t hear him say anything about himself. What, after all, was there to say? On the day after he just missed getting elected in 2006, he called me and said, “I want you to do me a favor.”

“Sure, Buck.”

“I want you to thank all the people who have said nice things since the Hall of Fame thing happened. … I have never felt more loved. All my life. Tell them that.”

And he told me then that God works in mysterious ways, and that by not getting into the Hall of Fame he found out just how much people really loved him.

“Buck,” I said, “you’re the only person I know who could feel that way.”

And he said: “You might be right about that.”

He laughed — Buck used to talk about the greatest sound he ever heard, the sound of the ball coming off the bat of Babe Ruth … and then Josh Gibson … and then Bo Jackson.

The greatest sound I ever heard was Buck O’Neil laughing.

And in the moment, I heard that laugh again—a laugh of happiness, a laugh of kindness, a laugh of elated disbelief. Buck O’Neil is a Hall of Famer.

And yes, of course, obviously:

I wish he had lived
To hear them say,
”You were great.
You were one of the greatest ever.”
But I’m sure he heard it.

 

[dcar00 14351]

so who is the next auto 1st ballot guy that doesn't have the roids stink on him?   Beltre?

[Guest Lobo]

Maybe K-Rod?  Not saying he should be a first-ballot guy, but he certainly has bona fides way beyond most relievers in the Hall.  He obviously gets in at some point, my only point is that he was way more dominant than so many other fucking scrubs at his "position."  But yeah, he's probably a year 3-5 guy. 

There's nobody else in next year's first ballot that gets in.  but yeah, Beltre is the next position player to have that chance (2024).  Considering he did 20 full seasons at 3b, didn't take the DH way out...he really is one of the handful of best guys at that spot in MLB history.  I would think he's a first ballot guy.  Only real drama would be if he goes in as a Dodger or as a Ranger.

[dcar00 14351]

14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Maybe K-Rod?  Not saying he should be a first-ballot guy, but he certainly has bona fides way beyond most relievers in the Hall.  He obviously gets in at some point, my only point is that he was way more dominant than so many other fucking scrubs at his "position."  But yeah, he's probably a year 3-5 guy. 

There's nobody else in next year's first ballot that gets in.  but yeah, Beltre is the next position player to have that chance (2024).  Considering he did 20 full seasons at 3b, didn't take the DH way out...he really is one of the handful of best guys at that spot in MLB history.  I would think he's a first ballot guy.  Only real drama would be if he goes in as a Dodger or as a Ranger.

I'm sure Beltre goes in as a Ranger.  his best season was with dodgers but most of his accolades came as a Ranger and he played in 2 WS with them.  

K-Rod hmmm can't see anyway it doesn't take him 3-5 years but he's from the one inning closer era.  Its possible he doesn't IMO.  the guys that went 3 innings+ to get saves in the old days get more respect, as they should.

#4 in saves all time so it counts for something but there are similar guys around him.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I was just spitballing.  I don't see another 1st ballot pitcher for quite awhile.  He's just the only one sticking out there.  

Some other closers (hopefully Huston Street one day, knock on wood), and guys like Sabathia...but they're guys in year 5 and beyond.  There's a couple catchers coming up in next few years that I don't want to start another thread-derail on but suffice to say, as good as they were as hitters, hidden in there is that they spend 1/3-1/2 of their careers at other positions.  Yeah, I look around...not gonna be many first ballot guys in the next half-decade.  

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

Fuck the Mets but Colon should be in first ballot just for his homer, and I'm pretty sure he is not implicated in any steroid use:

 

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2078]

16 hours ago, dcar00 said:

so who is the next auto 1st ballot guy that doesn't have the roids stink on him?   Beltre?

Really only two auto first ballots out there - Beltre and Ichiro.  Ichiro held on forever so he’s a year behind Beltre. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

On 11/27/2021 at 12:26 AM, cafe society said:

Thurman Munson 46.1

Don't get me started on my annual anger at the HOF... Munson should be in!

[cafe society 2872]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:58 PM, Wulaw Horn said:

Anyone who votes for bonds or Clemens but not the other is a moron and should have his ballot lit on fire while he watches it burn while tied to an ant hill. They are both top 10 all timers who are suspected of roid  abuse but never nailed on a test. It’s same same. You cannot justify a vote for one without the other. 
Any one voting for Ortiz, Ramirez or Sosa but not for Bonds, Clemens or ARod should have their voting privileges revoked and be forcibly sterilized so they can’t spread their dna further into society. 

Heyman's point - not saying yea or nay here - is that Bonds was clearly a no-shit HOF before he ever began juicing.  Clemens, there are a lot of people who think the Rocket was close to mediocrity when he resurrected his career with steroid use.  Again, just fyi.  ARod failed the test after steroids were loudly and roundly denounced and MLB made random testing mandatory.  He, Ortiz and Manny (twice!) knew what it meant if they were caught.  That is a significant data point for many voters.  I would include Clemens, myself, but am reluctant with ARod (although IMO he was the greatest all-around shortstop I ever saw) and Ortiz, and a big no on Manny.

I mostly like Heyman's ballot, although, as I said, I would vote for Roger and substitute Wagner for Schilling.

[Guest Lobo]

What's the consensus on when Clemens started using steroids?  I've seen a huge span in speculation from 1998 to 2002.  

I really don't think Clemens career tailed off as dramatically as many make it out to be.  Yeah, from 1993-1996, there's a marked dropoff.  But in '93, Boston was fucking horrible, worst offense in the AL.  he got no run support.  He was on his way to a statistically great season in shortened 1994.  1995 woulda been okay had he finished out the year as well. 1996 was mediocre, but still a sub 4.00 era and led the league in K's.  He was beginning to be a clubhouse problem for players and ownership alike, and that helped fan the flames of those rumors.  But sometime after that, he obviously not only regained his dominance but took it to another level at an age where that never really happens.  The longevity those drugs bought him was damn impressive.  He was just filthy in 2005 in Houston at the age of 42.  

All that to say, even with some speedbumps from 1993-96, I think he would have ended up with a still HOF worthy career when it was all said and done (if he was drug free).  Still probably wins ~275 games, ERA under 3.50, 3,500+ K's, ERA+ among the all-time greats.  Probably gets in on 3rd ballot, +/- one year.  As it stands now, he's one of the 5-10 all time best pitchers the game has ever seen, but we don't exactly know where in that pantheon he fits because of some portion of it being enhanced while others in that pantheon had no access to shit like that.  

I loved him a kid.  Would like to see him get the call to Cooperstown.  But as y'all have stated, either we gotta bite the bullet and get these guys all in as one class or none of them get to go.  and it wouldn't hurt for Clemens to be a little more open and honest and nice.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

I think Clemens is still a HOF pitcher if he never takes a 'roid. Too much natural talent there. He recovered faster, pitched longer, but his first 10 years are HOF worthy. 

3 CY and 1 MVP in 7 seasons? Unbelievable. 

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

2 hours ago, cafe society said:

Heyman's point - not saying yea or nay here - is that Bonds was clearly a no-shit HOF before he ever began juicing.  Clemens, there are a lot of people who think the Rocket was close to mediocrity when he resurrected his career with steroid use.  Again, just fyi.  ARod failed the test after steroids were loudly and roundly denounced and MLB made random testing mandatory.  He, Ortiz and Manny (twice!) knew what it meant if they were caught.  That is a significant data point for many voters.  I would include Clemens, myself, but am reluctant with ARod (although IMO he was the greatest all-around shortstop I ever saw) and Ortiz, and a big no on Manny.

I mostly like Heyman's ballot, although, as I said, I would vote for Roger and substitute Wagner for Schilling.

That’s a fucking terrible take by heyman. Roger Clemens was a no doubt HOF before roids with multiple cy young awards. He’s an idiot. That vite has zero justification and he should have his credentials revoked. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[dcar00 14351]

Arod, Clemens, and Bonds are no doubt HOFers if they never take roids.  not sure about McGwire, Sosa.  Palmeiro is the weird one to me.  I can't really decide.  he never had a huge jump in numbers, sometimes hit .270 sometimes hit .320.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2078]

17 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I think Clemens is still a HOF pitcher if he never takes a 'roid. Too much natural talent there. He recovered faster, pitched longer, but his first 10 years are HOF worthy. 

3 CY and 1 MVP in 7 seasons? Unbelievable. 

I was looking at his BBref page and saw he was second in CY in 1990 with an ERA+ of 211 and a 10.4 WAR.  Damn!  Who could possibly beat that?  Forgotten choad Bob Welch goes 27-6 for the A's with a 2.9 WAR with peak Rickey, McGwire, Canseco, and Dave Henderson hitting behind him on way to the A's winning 103 games.  That's some shitty reliance on old school stats there.

[Guest Lobo]

I hated that 1990 A's team, was so glad when the scrappy Reds swept the shit outta them in the Series.  Clemens deserved that Cy Young, but Welch was pretty filthy that season...no matter what metrics you use.  I just got bummed out though, as much as I hated that A's pitching staff...just saw that Welch died at a young 57 from a fall in the bathroom at home.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Yeah, hard to deny a guy the CY who won 27 games regardless of the team behind him.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2078]

11 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I hated that 1990 A's team, was so glad when the scrappy Reds swept the shit outta them in the Series.  Clemens deserved that Cy Young, but Welch was pretty filthy that season...no matter what metrics you use.  I just got bummed out though, as much as I hated that A's pitching staff...just saw that Welch died at a young 57 from a fall in the bathroom at home.  

good.  steal a longhorn's cy young at your own peril.

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

Yeah so ESPN did a what would their final numbers have been without Roids for Clemens and Bonds. Someone tell that slapsixk that got quotes upthread (not the surly-ite but the blue check mark) that Clemens would have dropped all the way down to 4 on the all time list for pitchers War. So, yeah, no conceivable justification to vote for Bonds and. It Clemens and anyone who can vote for either Ortiz or ManRam but doesn’t vote for Bonds/Clemens should be shot. 

[WBT 20661]

I'm still holding firm that none of them should get in but baseball writers and journalists in general love to bleeding heart so I'm sure they'll let them all in eventually.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:46 AM, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

I was looking at his BBref page and saw he was second in CY in 1990 with an ERA+ of 211 and a 10.4 WAR.  Damn!  Who could possibly beat that?  Forgotten choad Bob Welch goes 27-6 for the A's with a 2.9 WAR with peak Rickey, McGwire, Canseco, and Dave Henderson hitting behind him on way to the A's winning 103 games.  That's some shitty reliance on old school stats there.

Voters just get bored of writing the same name....not logical but that's the way it is. Bill James has said that nobody but Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle of Barry Bonds would have won MVPs for years at a stretch if the voters acted like Vulcans.

Welch's Cy Young season was like Andre Dawson's MVP year in Wrigley.

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

16 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Voters just get bored of writing the same name....not logical but that's the way it is. Bill James has said that nobody but Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle of Barry Bonds would have won MVPs for years at a stretch if the voters acted like Vulcans.

Welch's Cy Young season was like Andre Dawson's MVP year in Wrigley.

I predicted Andre Dawson winning that MVP and said he should. In my defense I think I was 7 and didn’t understand context. My dad told me it was stupid. Now I understand. 

[tx 3 putt 77375]

44 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I predicted Andre Dawson winning that MVP and said he should. In my defense I think I was 7 and didn’t understand context. My dad told me it was stupid. Now I understand. 

you need to get back on your meds 

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

32 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

you need to get back on your meds 

I have no idea why that warranted this response but Ok.  

[Guest Lobo]

Dawson was so damn dominant that whole season, including in the field.  But yeah, his team finished dead last.  I don't think the MVP should be reserved for guys on teams that take the pennant, and I'm a cubs fan, but I guess it was a weak ballot?  Shit, Ozzie Smith finished a close second in the voting.  It was a goofy year.  

[Wulaw Horn 19148]

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Dawson was so damn dominant that whole season, including in the field.  But yeah, his team finished dead last.  I don't think the MVP should be reserved for guys on teams that take the pennant, and I'm a cubs fan, but I guess it was a weak ballot?  Shit, Ozzie Smith finished a close second in the voting.  It was a goofy year.  

I remember just being amazed at the numbers.  Would he get to 50? Would Big Mac get to 50? I couldn't comprehend that.  1987 was just a really weird year for baseball offensively.  I think I remember people talking about them messing with the ball, and that was what was causing all the offense. I would guess that was maybe the starting point of serious steroid use with the A's being on the forefront of that with the Bash Brothers and all that. That was maybe the first glimpse of what baseball would become.  The Cards and Royals and their team full of jack rabbits and slap/gap hitters had been really successful and the Cards played the Twins who were not exactly a murderers row and were pretty flukey to get there, but we did see the beginnings of what baseball was going to become, even if it didn't really run head on to that until the 1990's/early 2000's with everyone juicing.  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I predicted Andre Dawson winning that MVP and said he should. In my defense I think I was 7 and didn’t understand context. My dad told me it was stupid. Now I understand. 

I was 17 or so and these dweebs in their 30s were talking about advanced stats and I was like, dude, 47 homers and 149 RBIs, or whatever. I now realize it was one of the dumbest selections of my lifetime.