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2022 Hall of Fame

MaybeACoordinator

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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I guess I don’t read baseball writing anymore for the last many years.  Probably because the Sox and cubs finally won, all the men in my family that played and loved and taught me the game are dead except one Uncle who played minor league ball with the Indians in the 50’s, and the game fucking blows right now.  
 

but yes, I need to read More drunken Irishmen not named Joyce.  I really hope the Hall gets its shit together somehow.  
 

hallelujah.  Holy shit.  Where’s the fucking cracker jacks?

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Why do you think this would accomplish anything?  90% of the voters already write a column explaining their ballots, including Curly-Haired Boyfriend. 

Oh, because in my fantasy their vote and accompanying rationale is evaluated by a panel which uses some objective rubric that requires the voters to apply consistent logic and sound statistical arguments, and if they fail to do so adequately, they lose their vote. 

Edited by Hank Chinaski
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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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11 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Oh, because in my fantasy their vote and accompanying rationale is evaluated by a panel which uses some objective rubric that requires the voters to apply consistent logic and sound statistical arguments, and if they fail to do so adequately, they lose their vote. 

So you want a panel to evaluate the panel that votes on the HoF?  Should that panel's work also be judged by another panel?

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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On 1/8/2022 at 7:16 PM, Lobo said:

All that to say, the writer makes a compelling case for Sheffield I hadn't thought about.  Also, anybody else taken aback by the "statistical claim" that Sheffield was the worst defensive outfielder in history?  I did not see that coming. 

I have seen it before, and most negative career D-WAR is a dumb way to measure that.  It's kind of like saying that Favre is the worst QB in NFL history because he threw the most interceptions, or Lebron James is the worst player in NBA history because he committed the most turnovers.  

The worst defensive outfielder in history is someone who was so bad that there was no way his teams could put him out there for 1600+ games.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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I know you're a Yankee fan, but there are a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame that didn't hit their stride until 27, or even after that. 

John Smoltz was a good pitcher, but nowhere near Hall of Fame worthy until he was 29.  There are literally 50 other examples.  But I'll let you have a moment.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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56 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I know you're a Yankee fan, but there are a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame that didn't hit their stride until 27, or even after that. 

John Smoltz was a good pitcher, but nowhere near Hall of Fame worthy until he was 29.  There are literally 50 other examples.  But I'll let you have a moment.

Smoltz made three AS teams before he was 27.  You might try Mariano Rivera, who made 0 before 27.

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Helobious

Helobious 9477

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17 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Smoltz made three AS teams before he was 27.  You might try Mariano Rivera, who made 0 before 27.

 

8 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

Mariano Rivera had a grand total of 5 big league saves before he was 27

That’s insane that the guy that didn’t become a full time closer until he was 27 didn’t have many saves before then. I also missed where Rivera tested positive for roids like Ortiz did. Also Rivera had already built up quite the rep as a setup man before he took over closing duties. 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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True, but three all-star teams does not equate to an HoF career.  I was just picking on him because he clearly did not have a Cooperstown trajectory about him until 29.  He was very good to great.  But nothing like he was ages 29-37.  Phil Niekro didn't become an elite pitcher until he was 30.  Neither did Hoyt Wilhelm.  Joe Morgan doesn't become a great-to-alltimer 2b until he's 28.  Plenty of examples of guys not hitting their stride until late, late 20's.  

Nothing against these guys, especially Rivera.  You do what your team needs you to do until you can break out and create your own role.  Yes, Rivera was a great "setup man" before 28...but who gives a shit?  When they build the "Roll-Aids Relief Setup Man of the Year" wing in Cooperstown, I'll take note.  Actually, who would be a good sponsor for that?  Good shower thoughts.  

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cafe society

cafe society 2835

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On 1/13/2022 at 3:12 PM, Lobo said:

He laments there's no more Jeters on the ballot but then calls A-Rod the greatest shortstop of all-time...even though A-Rod wasn't the best SS on his own team?  I don't get it.  

That last little remark about Schilling is also curious.  

I'll give Dan this much...it's poorly written...but at least he puts out his rationale for all to see.  Most writers don't do that or they wait years to reveal it as if we're gonna give a shit ten years down the line when everybody is no longer eligible.  

This shit's annoying but I almost expected, and perhaps even tacitly welcomed, more grandstanding here in the last couple of years for much of this PED-class.  

Alex Rodriguez was light years better at shortstop than Jeter.  The Yankees acquired A-Rod on the condition that for the sake of clubhouse peace he would move to third and Captain Jeter would remain shortstop because he was beloved by teammates and fans and the NY media.  A-Rod is the greatest all-around shortstop in history.  Not the greatest fielder, but an outstanding one, and the best offensively.

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Helobious

Helobious 9477

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I am easily the biggest Jeter fan on this site. He’s my favorite athlete of all time, wore his number in little league. He’s a big reason why I fell in love with baseball as a kid. Even I know A-Rod was a better SS. It’s really not even a debated topic in the yankeeverse. Everyone knows it.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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21 hours ago, cafe society said:

Alex Rodriguez was light years better at shortstop than Jeter.  The Yankees acquired A-Rod on the condition that for the sake of clubhouse peace he would move to third and Captain Jeter would remain shortstop because he was beloved by teammates and fans and the NY media.  A-Rod is the greatest all-around shortstop in history.  Not the greatest fielder, but an outstanding one, and the best offensively.

Yeah, I agree.  I was speaking from a hate of Yankees place in my heart.  

I literally can still remember an article in the New York Times in 2004, after A-Rod signed to come to the Bronx and when he was absolute peak celebrity in terms of off-the-field shit as well.  And it had diagrams and shit of Third Base.  It was explaining how Jeter would remain at SS as part of some clubhouse understanding, but how Third Base---the fielding position---worked in baseball.  The traits of a good 3b, how a 3b works with the rest of the infield, what's expected, foul territory,  etc.  It was like an article from The Onion.  It was fucking bizarre.  All to basically quell any concerns the casual Manhattan Yankee fan had about this new dynamic between the big name they knew on theYankees and his new one coming to join the Yankees.  It was like, "We know you go to 4 games a year at Madison Square Garden to see Patrick Ewing.  But the Knicks have signed a new Power Forward...here's what he'll be doing in the post alongside your favorite Center!"  

Jeter's overrated, A-Rod should get in (he's the GOATaSS), fuck the Yankees.  Ozzie Smith is overrated, Vizquel should get in as well.  All hail Honus! 

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cafe society

cafe society 2835

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41 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, I agree.  I was speaking from a hate of Yankees place in my heart.  

I literally can still remember an article in the New York Times in 2004, after A-Rod signed to come to the Bronx and when he was absolute peak celebrity in terms of off-the-field shit as well.  And it had diagrams and shit of Third Base.  It was explaining how Jeter would remain at SS as part of some clubhouse understanding, but how Third Base---the fielding position---worked in baseball.  The traits of a good 3b, how a 3b works with the rest of the infield, what's expected, foul territory,  etc.  It was like an article from The Onion.  It was fucking bizarre.  All to basically quell any concerns the casual Manhattan Yankee fan had about this new dynamic between the big name they knew on theYankees and his new one coming to join the Yankees.  It was like, "We know you go to 4 games a year at Madison Square Garden to see Patrick Ewing.  But the Knicks have signed a new Power Forward...here's what he'll be doing in the post alongside your favorite Center!"  

Jeter's overrated, A-Rod should get in (he's the GOATaSS), fuck the Yankees.  Ozzie Smith is overrated, Vizquel should get in as well.  All hail Honus! 

Ozzie is not overrated but Vizquel certainly is.  Ozzie has total 76.5 WAR, Omar has total 45.6.  Mark Belanger - the only SS I ever saw who was better defensively than Ozzie - has 39.5 Defensive WAR.  If he had been just a .240 career hitter he would have considerably more total WAR than Vizquel.

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Fastbreak

Fastbreak 3948

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On 1/16/2022 at 4:46 PM, cafe society said:

Ozzie is not overrated but Vizquel certainly is.  Ozzie has total 76.5 WAR, Omar has total 45.6.  Mark Belanger - the only SS I ever saw who was better defensively than Ozzie - has 39.5 Defensive WAR.  If he had been just a .240 career hitter he would have considerably more total WAR than Vizquel.

Andrelton Simmons was better than both.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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What?  Not saying he shouldn't be in the Hall FFS.  My comment meant that his vote tally in slightly outpunches his deserving of it.  Same with Ozzie.  Both belong.  Both should have been, and were, first ballot guys.  I just think their lore is a little above their greatness.  That's all.  We've beaten the horse of the 'roid class, we've talked about guys who literally shouldn't be in, we've debated unanimous decisions, close decisions, etc.  Thought I'd pivot to guys who should obviously be in, but got a little too much reverence on the way there.  I dunno, we're probably not having an MLB season so I'm just splitting hairs until Longhorn baseball resumes.  

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Guest Lobo

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Well, duh.  

(to be fair though, it's mostly Yankee fans and writers who aren't from/living in New York area who are the real asshats.  In my middle age, I can't fault guys like Mantle and A-Rod for milking the attention)

I've got nothing but admiration for guys like Gehrig, Ford, Berra, Ruth, Dickey, or Reggie.  Obviously Jeter and Rivera belong in the Hall on the 1st ballot, I just didn't quite get the landslide fashion with which they went in.  But guys like Gossage, Rizzuto, Pennock, Lazzeri, et. al. Those guys don't get into Cooperstown if they play for just about any other team except the Yankees.  They just don't.  There's a few other franchises with serious wink links in Cooperstown, but the Yankees have more than anyone.  And that's not just because they've been around a long time.  Fuck those guys.  /rant

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cafe society

cafe society 2835

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12 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Andrelton Simmons was better than both.

I would rank Simmons third all-time defensively.  He has 28.1 Defensive WAR, and total WAR of 37.3.  After that I think there's the next tier down, with players like A-Rod and Adam Everett.  Best SS arm I saw was Shawon Dunston.

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Guest Lobo

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No, for now the THIRD fucking time...I didn't say he shouldn't have been a first ballot guy.  I said he SHOULD be a first ballot guy, but that 1 vote shot of unanimous seemed like "overrated-ness" to me.  Second highest voted player in the history of the game seems a bit of a bar too high for a guy like of his career.  57 First Balloters in Coopertown, I don't think he should be #2 among them, that's all.  But yes, absolutely for the FOURTH time, he should be on that list.  Higher than Hank Aaron, Griffey, and Mays?  That's fucking insane.  That's my contention.  Yes, I realize the writer's don't huddle up and say, "Okay, guy obviously deserves to go in first time, but let's make sure he only gets about 85-95% of the vote, nothing too glamorous like Seaver or Maddux."  He is just slightly overrated and, IMHO, shouldn't be the second highest vote getter of all time.  Not recently, not of the Yankees, but of everybody in Cooperstown...ever.  

And yes Dunston's overall fielding was good, but not great.  But his cannon was absolutely lethal at SS.  

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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2 hours ago, cafe society said:

I would rank Simmons third all-time defensively.  He has 28.1 Defensive WAR, and total WAR of 37.3.  After that I think there's the next tier down, with players like A-Rod and Adam Everett.  Best SS arm I saw was Shawon Dunston.

The guy who might have been the best defensive SS to ever play, but couldn't hit enough to stay on the field was Brendan Ryan.  

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Guest Lobo

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34 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

fans GIF

Holy fucking shit ladies, I'm talking about within the context of the Hall of Fame.  Jeter should be in, no question. First ballot, no question.  I just think #2 all-time vote getter is a little overkill (as Cheese mentions though, perhaps timing was even more a factor than the pinstripes).  Ozzie should be in, no question.  First ballot, no question.  But a 92% vote getter?  I think that's overrated, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF COOPERSTOWN short-stops.  That's all!  Not saying he can't be 1st ballot.  Just that he handily gets more votes than guys like Ernie Banks and Robin Yount?  Again, just comparing first timers to other first timers.  That's all.  

Vizquel isn't in that conversation of SS greats.  Just saying that he deserves to get in before he falls off the ballot, that's all.  He deserves to be a later ballot guy, but time's a' wastin...

 

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dcar00

dcar00 14023

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10 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Yeah my take on Jeter has always been "overrated first ballot guy." It's not a ridiculous concept any means. 

eh he has 3400 career hits.  every 3K hit guy except Biggio has gone in on the first ballot.  not really overrated 1st ballot guy but obligatory "Fuck Jeter" anyway.

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dcar00

dcar00 14023

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7 hours ago, Lobo said:

Holy fucking shit ladies, I'm talking about within the context of the Hall of Fame.  Jeter should be in, no question. First ballot, no question.  I just think #2 all-time vote getter is a little overkill (as Cheese mentions though, perhaps timing was even more a factor than the pinstripes).  Ozzie should be in, no question.  First ballot, no question.  But a 92% vote getter?  I think that's overrated, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF COOPERSTOWN short-stops.  That's all!  Not saying he can't be 1st ballot.  Just that he handily gets more votes than guys like Ernie Banks and Robin Yount?  Again, just comparing first timers to other first timers.  That's all.  

Vizquel isn't in that conversation of SS greats.  Just saying that he deserves to get in before he falls off the ballot, that's all.  He deserves to be a later ballot guy, but time's a' wastin...

 

Banks would be number 1 but he played almost half his games at 1B and more at 1B than SS.  Texan too so he gets my vote.  He was the prototype for Ripken, Arod, Jeter, etc.

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22583

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On 1/18/2022 at 8:32 AM, Lobo said:

Well, duh.  

(to be fair though, it's mostly Yankee fans and writers who aren't from/living in New York area who are the real asshats.  In my middle age, I can't fault guys like Mantle and A-Rod for milking the attention)

I've got nothing but admiration for guys like Gehrig, Ford, Berra, Ruth, Dickey, or Reggie.  Obviously Jeter and Rivera belong in the Hall on the 1st ballot, I just didn't quite get the landslide fashion with which they went in.  But guys like Gossage, Rizzuto, Pennock, Lazzeri, et. al. Those guys don't get into Cooperstown if they play for just about any other team except the Yankees.  They just don't.  There's a few other franchises with serious wink links in Cooperstown, but the Yankees have more than anyone.  And that's not just because they've been around a long time.  Fuck those guys.  /rant

Craig Biggio is a first ballot HOFer and one of the most beloved baseball players of all time if he's drafted by the Yankees.

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32685

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On 1/16/2022 at 12:21 AM, Helobious said:

I am easily the biggest Jeter fan on this site. He’s my favorite athlete of all time, wore his number in little league. He’s a big reason why I fell in love with baseball as a kid. Even I know A-Rod was a better SS. It’s really not even a debated topic in the yankeeverse. Everyone knows it.

That just means you were the second smallest guy on the team.

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Beantown Express 2.0

Beantown Express 2.0 6531

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CSB- The first MLB game I ever attended live was Fenway Park in 1979.  I went with my Great Uncle who happened to have a friend that worked for the Red Sox.  He got me a ball the entire 1979 Red Sox signed (Yaz, Fisk, Rice, Lynn, Eckersley, Tudor, etc…) which sits on my desk to this day.  Fast forward to 3 years ago when my son was 12 and had never been to a MLB game so we went up to Boston and his first game was at Fenway also.  We got to our seats a little late because I had to get us some Italian Sausage sandwiches before heading in.  We sat down at our seats and the first batter up was Big Papi.  He hit the first pitch he saw over the right field bullpen for a HR.  I told my son he is lucky that his first MLB game ever was at Fenway and the first batter he ever saw in person was future HOFer Big Papi hitting a HR.  That’s all I got.

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Blotto

Blotto 23418

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8 hours ago, Scraps said:

Put Bonds in assholes

No doubt. I happened to be living in SF during peak Barry years, and attending games in 2001 was something else. Every at bat was electric. Or if you were in bars, and Bonds came up to bat, everybody would shut up watch each at bat. Fucker would usually only get a couple of pitches to swing at a game, and still hit 73 out.  And then turns around and leads the league in average 2 out of the next 3 years. He was a f'n machine. He's a dick and I dont like the guy, but he deserves to be in. 

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25426

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Fuck Yes! Haters can hate, but Papi is Papi. 

image.png.4f6074f9dfae18249b0ac95a0b3f639e.png

My Grandmother taught me to love the game and the Red Sox. I will take my son to Cooperstown for his induction. We have been there before and anyone who loves the sport needs to go. Having the picture of my son in Willie's locker is the best. We went into the Hall itself right before closing. We were the only two people there and it was magical. 

 

 

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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15 minutes ago, dbecks said:

Damn… but at least they got one right. Congrats, Big Papi.

Bonds and Clemens are kept out of the HoF for PED and eliminated after their 10th year of eligibility, but confirmed PED user David Ortiz gets elected on his first ballot?

Makes sense.

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25426

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3 minutes ago, Blotto said:

No doubt. I happened to be living in SF during peak Barry years, and attending games in 2001 was something else. Every at bat was electric. Or if you were in bars, and Bonds came up to bat, everybody would shut up watch each at bat. Fucker would usually only get a couple of pitches to swing at a game, and still hit 73 out.  And then turns around and leads the league in average 2 out of the next 3 years. He was a f'n machine. He's a dick and I dont like the guy, but he deserves to be in. 

Bonds needs to be in. I met him his rookie year and was a stand up dude everyone in Pittsburg loved. 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Bonds and Clemens are kept out of the HoF for PED and eliminated after their 10th year of eligibility, but confirmed PED user David Ortiz gets elected on his first ballot?

Makes sense.

"Confirmed."   

200.gif

Edited by Beau Vine
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