Mass Shootings

[jimmyjazz 45492]

7 minutes ago, HoustonHorn said:

Do you blame the gun, or Academy, the fact he was obviously suffering a depression so severe he felt the best way out was to kill himself, or family/friends who didn't recognize his dire situation, or maybe the external factors in the world that led to his depression?

To blame the gun would be silly.  (This does not change my argument that access to guns is too easy.)

I don't blame Academy, as there was nothing disqualifying him for the purchase of the gun.

Of course his depression was the overriding factor.  Family & friends did just about as much as they could.  I have no idea about "external factors" -- he was your average kid, not a jock, had a couple of learning issues, etc.  Creative.  Dark at times.  Undergoing treatment.  What more can I say?

It's something that a waiting period might have mitigated.  It's not really the topic of this thread.

[HoustonHorn 1059]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

IMO we as a society should be interested in lowering our rates of overall deaths, overall deaths from firearms, homicides from firearms, and suicides from firearms.

Too often I see folks say that we don’t need gun reform because most firearm-related deaths are from suicides. This is a dishonest point that doesn’t acknowledge that our society wants to lower suicide rates in addition to homicide by firearm rates. There is evidence that shows access to a firearm increases risks of successful suicides.

Not a personal friend, but a friend of a friend killed himself by slicing his own jugular with a bowie knife. Not arguing against some gun reform, I think its needed. Just saying that is only part of the picture and figuring out why so many people are suicidal is probably a relevant pursuit as well. But people would rather argue back and forth over guns than have difficult discussions about underlying reasons.

[HoustonHorn 1059]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

To blame the gun would be silly.  (This does not change my argument that access to guns is too easy.)

I don't blame Academy, as there was nothing disqualifying him for the purchase of the gun.

Of course his depression was the overriding factor.  Family & friends did just about as much as they could.  I have no idea about "external factors" -- he was your average kid, not a jock, had a couple of learning issues, etc.  Creative.  Dark at times.  Undergoing treatment.  What more can I say?

It's something that a waiting period might have mitigated.  It's not really the topic of this thread.

And I'm extremely sorry for your loss, that is an incredibly difficult thing to have to deal with.

I do think it is relevant though because while your cousin was depressed and killed himself, others take those same thoughts and kill others, at an especially high rate in the United States compared to others. Understanding the reason why and not just the effectiveness of the weapon of choice, is something we really need to look closely at.

Edited May 25, 2018 by HoustonHorn

[jimmyjazz 45492]

I'm pretty sure most people would be on board with a reduction suicides.  What many are not on board with is funding the research and outreach efforts to actually accomplish this.

Regardless, it might make a great thread.  <hint>

[jimmyjazz 45492]

1 minute ago, HoustonHorn said:

I do think it is relevant though because while your cousin was depressed and killed himself, others take those same thoughts and kill others, at an especially high rate in the United States compared to others.

Uh, no.  There is very little correlation between depression and mass shootings.  Anger, yes.  Depression, not so much.

[SmokeyBear1861 107]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

IMO we as a society should be interested in lowering our rates of overall deaths, overall deaths from firearms, homicides from firearms, and suicides from firearms.

Too often I see folks say that we don’t need gun reform because most firearm-related deaths are from suicides. This is a dishonest point that isn’t acknowledge that our society wants to lower suicide rates. There is also evidence that shows access to a firearm increases risks of successful suicides.

Fountain of youth, reduce fatherless families, reduce fatherless families, and change how mental illness is treated (therapy instead of medication).

Most gun deaths and homicides are committed in inner cities with handguns. Why? I think it's because the kids grow up without a father figure.

https://ijr.com/2016/01/510415-10-charts-that-put-obamas-gun-violence-town-hall-in-perspective/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/us/murder-rates-rising-sharply-in-many-us-cities.html

https://www.fatherhood.org/fatherhood-data-statistics

None of these has to do with taking the rights of law abiding citizens.

[wildcat09 29183]

2 minutes ago, HoustonHorn said:

Not a personal friend, but a friend of a friend killed himself by slicing his own jugular with a bowie knife. Not arguing against some gun reform, I think its needed. Just saying that is only part of the picture and figuring out why so many people are suicidal is probably a relevant pursuit as well. But people would rather argue back and forth over guns than have difficult discussions about underlying reasons.

Going back to the cholera analogy, you can stop the epidemic before finding a cure. They're both valuable pursuits.

[HoustonHorn 1059]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Uh, no.  There is very little correlation between depression and mass shootings.  Anger, yes.  Depression, not so much.

Seems like most of the shooters go into it with a death wish, but I haven't looked at statistics so I could be wrong.

I would say that depression and anger are two core emotions of people who are not happy. There seems to be a lot of unhappy people in the United States and I would bet there is a lot of correlation between the causes of anger and depression.They just manifest themselves differently in different people.

[jimmyjazz 45492]

I think you're getting out over your psychiatric skis.

[HoustonHorn 1059]

Maybe so, enlighten me.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

36 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Maybe we should stop misinterpreting the 2nd amendment (since Rehnquist court)

 

You think an amendment that says “the right of the people” wasn’t referring to individual rights?

[GW Hayduke 1950]

17 minutes ago, HoustonHorn said:

Not a personal friend, but a friend of a friend killed himself by slicing his own jugular with a bowie knife. Not arguing against some gun reform, I think its needed. Just saying that is only part of the picture and figuring out why so many people are suicidal is probably a relevant pursuit as well. But people would rather argue back and forth over guns than have difficult discussions about underlying reasons.

Sure. We want to mimize our rates of overall deaths. I think folks have established a strong link between access to a firearm and rate of suicide success

[HoustonHorn 1059]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Sure. We want to mimize our rates of overall deaths. I think folks have established a strong link between access to a firearm and rate of suicide success

And I haven't looked at the research, but does it show that people in other countries are trying to kill themselves as much as people in the United States, but they aren't as successful? Honest question.

[jimmyjazz 45492]

8 minutes ago, HoustonHorn said:

Maybe so, enlighten me.

I'm no doctor, so I'm not interested in getting out over my own skis.  I will say I've been counseled to recognize anger as a potential symptom of depression, but that anger can also manifest without depression, and that the neurological responses to the two can be quite different.

[GW Hayduke 1950]

8 minutes ago, HoustonHorn said:

And I haven't looked at the research, but does it show that people in other countries are trying to kill themselves as much as people in the United States, but they aren't as successful? Honest question.

I don’t have a full answer to that question. I am familiar with a study that looked at the trends before and after Australia reformed their gun laws.  They found “a statistically significant acceleration in the prexisting downward trend for firearm suicides.” And “There was no evidence of substitution of other lethal methods of suicides.” However, I would like to see more on this topic

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2530362

Edited May 25, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[HoustonHorn 1059]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

I'm no doctor, so I'm not interested in getting out over my own skis.  I will say I've been counseled to recognize anger as a potential symptom of depression, but that anger can also manifest without depression, and that the neurological responses to the two can be quite different.

Understood and I appreciate that. I definitely agree that there are differences and wasn't really trying to get into a psychiatric or neurological discussion. But I don't think the fact we aren't doctors should prevent presumably intelligent and reasonable people from discussing potential factors leading to the situation we are facing. Similarly, there needs to be a reasonable discussion on guns and how to reduce access to people who shouldn't have them and other measures to mitigate the potential damage they can do when in the wrong hands.

There were several articles posted on shaggy a few months back about depression and unhappiness in today's younger generation. I'm not going to dig back through all the shit to find them. As a dad with two young kids that sort of stuff is a concern. As is this seemingly increasing level of violence and shootings in schools. I think its worth discussing.

[jimmyjazz 45492]

I get that.  There is also a mountain of research out there that indicates that there isn't a large correlation with diagnosed or even observable mental illness among mass shooters.  I see memes where a litany of medications are attributed to various people, and I have no idea if those are accurate, but do a little googling and you will find plenty of legit researchers at highly respected institutions saying that the correlation just isn't very strong.  It's about as far as I want to delve into exploring the topic, because I only have so many hours in the day, but it was convincing enough to me.

[HoustonHorn 1059]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I don’t have a full answer to that question. I am familiar with a study that looked at the trends before and after Australia reformed their gun laws.  They found “a statistically significant acceleration in the prexisting downward trend for firearm suicides.” And “There was no evidence of substitution of other lethal methods of suicides.” However, I would like to see more on this topic

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2530362

Interesting and definitely a strong reason to consider ways to reduce easy access to weapons. Thanks. It would be interesting to see how different countries "suicide attempt" rates have dropped or increased over the last 20 years.

[Bullneck 18976]

15 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes combative statement for the sake of being combative.  Please read the guys rule again, and tell me how practical the rule is, and how it's going to actually do jack shit . Then come back and try to act like an adult instead of the child you often do when replying to my posts.

Wow, internet tough guy.  More gun regulations are the only thing that will stop shootings.  That's it.  The government can stop shootings.  

I know you don't want to believe it, and so you've retreated to name calling and silly arguments you've invented in your head.  The numbers say I'm right and you're wrong.  And that's where we are. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Wow, internet tough guy.  More gun regulations are the only thing that will stop shootings.  That's it.  The government can stop shootings.  

I know you don't want to believe it, and so you've retreated to name calling and silly arguments you've invented in your head.  The numbers say I'm right and you're wrong.  And that's where we are. 

internet tough guy ? Go home before you melt.

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

6 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

You think an amendment that says “the right of the people” wasn’t referring to individual rights?

Can you explain the "well regulated militia" portion to us?

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

I like how there are all sorts of explanations (with no solutions) like mental health, video games, bullying, etc.  There are plenty of mentally ill people.  There are plenty of people who have been picked.  Plenty of people who have played video games.

At the end of the day, all of these shooters are white guys with easy access to guns.

[GW Hayduke 1950]

15 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I like how there are all sorts of explanations (with no solutions) like mental health, video games, bullying, etc.  There are plenty of mentally ill people.  There are plenty of people who have been picked.  Plenty of people who have played video games.

At the end of the day, all of these shooters are white guys with easy access to guns.

Yes. Any strategy will need to address firearms if there is to be any hope to lower our rate of firearm violence and decrease the magnitude/frequency of mass shootings. 

Australia’s approach to addressing their problem was effective.

“In the 18 years before the ban, there were 13 mass shootings, whereas in the 20 years following the ban, no mass shootings occurred, and the decline in total firearm deaths accelerated.”

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2530362

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

39 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Can you explain the "well regulated militia" portion to us?

who's regulating the militia ?

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

who's regulating the militia ?

Same people who regulate everything else.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

Same people who regulate everything else.

Nope not the answer the founding fathers were looking for.

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Nope not the answer the founding fathers were looking for.

They said "well regulated."  What did they mean by that?

 

[Eskimohorn 5610]

They said "well regulated."  What did they mean by that?
 

Per the use of the day, it was well-outfitted and trained. Pretty innocuous but key in that minors, dumbasses, newbies should not have the right to bear arms if they can’t use those arms properly and for defense of the community.

One thing is fact is that the 2nd amendment was not intended for individuals to be able to defend itself from the government, given that the Constitution expressly gives the government the right to call upon militias to put down “armed insurrections.” It was intended as a way to secure a free state from armed insurrections, natives and foreign invaders.

Rehnquist court is the first court to give individuals the right over the community, thus given us the modern interpretation. They are literalists when it suits them but activists when it suits them.

[blackmarketbaby 118]

Says the literalist 

[HoustonHorn 1059]

I get that.  There is also a mountain of research out there that indicates that there isn't a large correlation with diagnosed or even observable mental illness among mass shooters.  I see memes where a litany of medications are attributed to various people, and I have no idea if those are accurate, but do a little googling and you will find plenty of legit researchers at highly respected institutions saying that the correlation just isn't very strong.  It's about as far as I want to delve into exploring the topic, because I only have so many hours in the day, but it was convincing enough to me.

If I used a technical term that has led this discussion into one of definitions of mental illness, I apologize as that was not my intent.

To avoid an argument over semantics and attempt to get to an actual discussion of issues, I'll phrase it like this. Happy, well adjusted kids do not murder dozens of people in cold blood.

Definitions aside, why do you think certain kids murder other students/teachers?

[rantanamo 143]

I'm all for blaming guns, and their access being too easy, but while doing research on a different subjects, I noticed a lot of something else: white male coddling by their own parents.  Especially when it comes to social and educational situations.  Lots of "We don't think he can handle that", while putting their daughters through similar situations.  Not saying all, but I was always surprised when getting these types of answers even though I've seen them before.  Current and previous next door neighbors were doing the same thing.  Their daughter's were out there like superstars.  Earning scholarships, playing sports, dancing, whatever, while sons are sheltered.  Its just weird to me and seems like it would create the exact people that they are talking about.  With both families, the boys are constantly fighting and yelling at everyone.  Its just odd to me.  My dad was a hardass growing up.  If we couldn't handle something, he literally threw us at the problem a few times. 

These crimes are generally following violent crime victimization data.  If someone kills you, 9 times out of 10 its someone you know.  That's why I don't know how mentally ill these individuals are.  More like, they can't deal and somewhere they got the impression the problem is solved by choosing a gun and taking the victims by surprise. 

[HoustonHorn 1059]

I don't think "mental illness" is the real problem here, but I do think there is something going on which is leading to unhappiness and anger among teenagers (and the overall population in general) and there is no constructive outlet for dealing with those issues. In fact, I think there are a lot of things which exacerbate the problem.

[Bama Chick 28596]

3 hours ago, HoustonHorn said:

unhappiness and anger among teenagers

But it isn't all teenagers.

It's the subset of straight, white, male teens/young adults that are perpetuating this violence

[HoustonHorn 1059]

But it isn't all teenagers.
It's the subset of straight, white, male teens/young adults that are perpetuating this violence

Let me rephrase the question so you can answer it.

Happy, well adjusted kids or kids who are not white males do not murder dozens of people in cold blood.

Definitions aside, why do you think certain white male kids murder other students/teachers?

Does that clarify it enough for you? I'm happy to rephrase it again as needed.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

They said "well regulated."  What did they mean by that?

 

It doesn't mean what you think it means.  Regulated militia ?  who regulates miitia ?  It's private citizens with guns.  It's not private citizens with guns regulated by the state.  You understand that concept right ?  

Private citizens with guns to keep the state form usurping their rights.  Why would they say yeah you have guns to keep the state at bay, but we're gonna regulate that shit....  

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It doesn't mean what you think it means.  Regulated militia ?  who regulates miitia ?  It's private citizens with guns.  It's not private citizens with guns regulated by the state.  You understand that concept right ?  

Private citizens with guns to keep the state form usurping their rights.  Why would they say yeah you have guns to keep the state at bay, but we're gonna regulate that shit....  

You've basically described no regulation.  That's not what "well regulated" means.  

Eskimohorn gave a pretty good answer a few posts back.

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

6 hours ago, rantanamo said:

I'm all for blaming guns, and their access being too easy, but while doing research on a different subjects, I noticed a lot of something else: white male coddling by their own parents.  Especially when it comes to social and educational situations.  Lots of "We don't think he can handle that", while putting their daughters through similar situations.  Not saying all, but I was always surprised when getting these types of answers even though I've seen them before.  Current and previous next door neighbors were doing the same thing.  Their daughter's were out there like superstars.  Earning scholarships, playing sports, dancing, whatever, while sons are sheltered.  Its just weird to me and seems like it would create the exact people that they are talking about.  With both families, the boys are constantly fighting and yelling at everyone.  Its just odd to me.  My dad was a hardass growing up.  If we couldn't handle something, he literally threw us at the problem a few times. 

These crimes are generally following violent crime victimization data.  If someone kills you, 9 times out of 10 its someone you know.  That's why I don't know how mentally ill these individuals are.  More like, they can't deal and somewhere they got the impression the problem is solved by choosing a gun and taking the victims by surprise. 

That's a good point.  As I was reading that, I was thinking about families we know.  Similar deals but maybe to a lesser degree.  The parents are sometimes well put together, have great daughters but the sons, well, they're not so great.  

On the topic of mental illness, I think people are throwing that around too liberally.  A lot of these kids are just angry, isolated, and depressed.  That's not "mentally ill."  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

You've basically described no regulation.  That's not what "well regulated" means.  

Eskimohorn gave a pretty good answer a few posts back.

I'll check his post, but the definition of regulation in the 21st century doesn't neccesarily have the same meaning as it did in 18th c.. America.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

That's a good point.  As I was reading that, I was thinking about families we know.  Similar deals but maybe to a lesser degree.  The parents are sometimes well put together, have great daughters but the sons, well, they're not so great.  

On the topic of mental illness, I think people are throwing that around too liberally.  A lot of these kids are just angry, isolated, and depressed.  That's not "mentally ill."  

True it's not just mental illness. It's also the way our culture has made everyone a victim, somebody else is to blame. Parents handle kids problems for them instead of letting  kids skin their knees and figure shit out for themselves. Too Many kids don't have the life skills to deal with their problems themselves.  

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'll check his post, but the definition of regulation in the 21st century doesn't neccesarily have the same meaning as it did in 18th c.. America.

Well, the Constitution also allowed slavery so lots of things have changed since the late 1800's.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

Well, the Constitution also allowed slavery so lots of things have changed since the late 1800's.

 

Wow, nice non related topic that has zero to do with guns there sport.

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

True it's not just mental illness. It's also the way our culture has made everyone a victim, somebody else is to blame. Parents handle kids problems for them instead of letting  kids skin their knees and figure shit out for themselves. Too Many kids don't have the life skills to deal with their problems themselves.  

Yeah, that sounds nice but that's not what is really going on.  Kids have been getting picked on for years as real victims.  Ask gay kids, black kids, poor kids, or just the weird kids.  They're no the ones shooting up schools or other public spaces.  It's angry white guys with guns.

[Goredho 17296]

I’m starting to think the Trump presidency is a long game by the NRA to get normal people to consider, “Maybe we do need a slew of guns to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government.”

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Wow, nice non related topic that has zero to do with guns there sport.

No, it has a lot to do with it.  The 2nd Amendment crowd seems to think the Constitution was a perfect document inspired by God and it should be taken literally even to this day.  Never mind it's been amended 17 times since its inception and the founders laid out a very detailed processed for amending it.  

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

No, it has a lot to do with it.  The 2nd Amendment crowd seems to think the Constitution was a perfect document inspired by God and it should be taken literally even to this day.  Never mind it's been amended 17 times since its inception and the founders laid out a very detailed processed for amending it.  

 

Yet again your post  has nothing to do with what I wrote. Yer 100% this morning pal.  Late night ?

[Aqua Buddha 14484]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yet again your post  has nothing to do with what I wrote. Yer 100% this morning pal.  Late night ?

It's because what you wrote doesn't make any sense.  You basically described no regulation at all.  Thats not what "well regulated" means.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

It's because what you wrote doesn't make any sense.  You basically described no regulation at all.  Thats not what "well regulated" means.

Again regulated by who ?   Who regulates the watch dog against tyranny ?  

Militia is civilian.  Who regulates a militia whose sole intent is to safeguard against an over reaching gov't ?  Regulated in the context of the constitution is an organized civilian guard regulated by themselves, the civilian militia.   Then there's that pesky line, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed upon.  Pretty much blows your argument out of the water a second time.  

How in the name of god do you get a militia who is supposed to protect against tyranny of gov't is to be regulated by that very gov't that tyranny may come from ?  

[Chrispy 132]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

True it's not just mental illness. It's also the way our culture has made everyone a victim, somebody else is to blame. Parents handle kids problems for them instead of letting  kids skin their knees and figure shit out for themselves. Too Many kids don't have the life skills to deal with their problems themselves.  

I agree with a lot of this. Choose any night of the week, go to a restaurant, and you’ll see a young kid with his face crammed into a smart phone or tablet. Piss poor parenting is rampant and I somewhat understand, it’s easier. I don’t entirely blame the parents, as some are terrified to actually punish their children, so they bribe them with technology. Hell, I remember my brother and I being sent to the car for misbehaving at the supermarket, something you could go to jail for today. Make no mistake, the kids pick up on this and the power dynamic has been shifted dramatically. 

 

 

[SubliminalHorn 6643]

What cracks me up about this whole debate about defending against tyranny of the government is that we are watching this administration push further and further into authoritarianism. And those that support him ARE the gun nuts. Looks like this precious militia is failing us. If the Founders truly meant the 2nd Amendment to be a fail safe against tyranny, then it is obviously a failure. So what’s the point of it anymore? We have constant mass shootings AND the militia is complicit with an authoritarian leaning piece of shit administration. 

Yeah, it’s a failure. 

[jimmyjazz 45492]

For a very long time, the courts (including SCOTUS) held that the 2nd Amendment ONLY conferred the right to bear arms on well-regulated state militias.  It was not thought to confer that right on individuals.  When the NRA experienced a shift in power to the right in the 1970s it starting pushing the "individual" angle.  THAT is where the modern perspective was born.  

The irony here is that conservatives who scream "original intent" about the Constitution are actually supporting quite the opposite when they incorrectly assert that 2A has always conferred the right of the individual to bear arms.  But hey, nobody said the American people are in general very smart, and we certainly are not very knowledgeable about our own history.  This is getting worse, and it is the planned end game of the right wing power structure.  They WANT us to be dumb, and by God, we are. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by jimmyjazz