Mass Shootings

[MoJames 8241]

 

Metallica is gonna use that in unforgiven 3.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

Students at a school in Pennsylvania have received a bulletproof backplate for their backpacks as a gift for graduating eighth grade. The ballistic shields were donated by a local company and given to students at St Cornelius school in Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania, as a leaving present before high school.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/06/bulletproof-backpacks-school-present-students-graduation

[Biff Tannen 45491]

10 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Students at a school in Pennsylvania have received a bulletproof backplate for their backpacks as a gift for graduating eighth grade. The ballistic shields were donated by a local company and given to students at St Cornelius school in Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania, as a leaving present before high school.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/06/bulletproof-backpacks-school-present-students-graduation

How thoughtful.  We are such an awesome society.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

How thoughtful.  We are such an awesome society.

I see it as more of the opposite. I see it as a result of shifting away from safety/freedom, I.e., the idea that going to school used to be a safe activity.

There are kids that go to school in war stricken parts of the world that take measures such as these. IMO, the US shouldn’t have to be like those countries.

I see it as this is an example/illustration of one of the costs associated with our gun violence problem.

[Biff Tannen 45491]

Yes.  Check your meter.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Yes.  Check your meter.

Lol. Meter checked

[Gene Parmesan 3993]

I see that as a good thing.  Kids now have a valid retort to grandpa's stories of walking to school uphill both ways in the snow.

[David Dennison 18646]

3 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Honestly, I don’t blame “gun nuts” all that much. We hope that all citizens, including gun owners, would understand the need for change and welcome measures that better society. For some reason, that isn’t the case. We could chalk this up to social media and an education system that is weak in critical thinking and citizen responsibilities. I would also lay blame to weak media regulations and dark money in politics.

Yeah, well, the problem is any time a Republican even hints at reform, the NRA pumps money into a primary to defeat that candidate, no matter how conservative he is on any other issue. The NRA is a protection racket and the Republican Party is too cowardly to do anything about it.

 

[GW Hayduke 1951]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, well, the problem is any time a Republican even hints at reform, the NRA pumps money into a primary to defeat that candidate, no matter how conservative he is on any other issue. The NRA is a protection racket and the Republican Party is too cowardly to do anything about it.

 

I agree that the Republican Party seems to be completely captured by the nra and the gun industry. IMO, the reasons for this are dark money, campaign finance, education, and propaganda.

[David Dennison 18646]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I agree that the Republican Party seems to be completely captured by the nra and the gun industry. IMO, the reasons for this are dark money, campaign finance, education, and propaganda.

Sadly, we can blame this on an archaic constitution that is venerated by both parties for purposes of nostalgia and hero worship.

[Fozzz 152]

14 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

 

Freedom ain't free, as they say.

[David Dennison 18646]

Just now, Fozzz said:

Freedom ain't free, as they say.

It costs a buck o five.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I see that as a good thing.  Kids now have a valid retort to grandpa's stories of walking to school uphill both ways in the snow.

Despite Heightened Fear Of School Shootings, It's Not A Growing Epidemic

[David Dennison 18646]

13 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Despite Heightened Fear Of School Shootings, It's Not A Growing Epidemic

But an epidemic nonetheless.

[Hank Kingsley 20673]

51 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Despite Heightened Fear Of School Shootings, It's Not A Growing Epidemic

Is this the same article that you always mention on these threads?  I guess because it comes from NPR you think that "liberals" should just accept it as fact. 

Most of their data excludes 2017-2018. Also, the main researcher that article credits is James Alan Fox.  In the article above, his answer to reduce school shootings is vaguely citing "mental health" issues and the need for more school guidance counselors.

 

But here is an opinion article he posted TODAY, with this excerpt:

"Doing the right thing in terms of expanded student services as well as enhanced gun control requires bold leadership in Washington. Maybe if the students protesting gun policy all pledged to stand for the national anthem at the beginning of the school day, the president would listen.

This country needs better control of who can have access to guns as well as limits on the type of weapons that are available. This country needs a White House that is not beholden to the NRA.

Among the many types and venues for gun violence, that which occurs in our nation’s schools has the greatest impact on our sense of safety and well-being. In the wake of two horrific school massacres, this is a prime opportunity to address the role of guns.  The majority of Americans who now support stricter gun control must insist that the commission reassess its agenda."

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Hank Kingsley

[Johnny Sack 8397]

36 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But an epidemic nonetheless.

Bad in fear.  Not based in a reality of increased risk of death by gun in schools.

[David Dennison 18646]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Bad in fear.  Not based in a reality of increased risk of death by gun in schools.

Compared to when we were in school?

Yeah.

[XYZ 2154]

The probability of a public high school student being shot dead at school on any given day is approximately 0.0000004%

[David Dennison 18646]

4 minutes ago, XYZ said:

The probability of a public high school student being shot dead at school on any given day is approximately 0.0000004%

What's the probability of an American being a victim of Islamic terrorism? That's something we're all encouraged to get worked up about.

[NateHitch 1282]

Why doesn't the media ever discuss psychotropic drugs, over-saturation of violence targeted towards children, vastly sub-par mental healthcare, FBI and police outright failing to act on red flags and other possible contributors to school shootings?  We've had semi-automatic weapons for decades, why is this just now such a problem?  What changed?  I'm not a gun owner, never had the desire to have one in my house but I can't help but have a few questions when yet another school shooting happens and the media gets tunnel vision and ignores a number of other reasonable discussions that need to be had.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Compared to when we were in school?

Yeah.

Everything I’ve read says gun deaths in schools are significantly lower than they were 25 years ago when I was in school.  

[David Dennison 18646]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Everything I’ve read says gun deaths in schools are significantly lower than they were 25 years ago when I was in school.  

I'd like to read what you're reading.

[David Dennison 18646]

And while we're waiting on that, we can read about how mass shootings (not only in schools) are becoming more deadly.

Yaaaaaaaaaay.

[Hank Kingsley 20673]

1 hour ago, NateHitch said:

Why doesn't the media ever discuss psychotropic drugs, over-saturation of violence targeted towards children, vastly sub-par mental healthcare, FBI and police outright failing to act on red flags and other possible contributors to school shootings?  We've had semi-automatic weapons for decades, why is this just now such a problem?  What changed?  I'm not a gun owner, never had the desire to have one in my house but I can't help but have a few questions when yet another school shooting happens and the media gets tunnel vision and ignores a number of other reasonable discussions that need to be had.

It's been discussed ad nauseam. The one common denominator is the use of a firearm.

Populations increase. Society changes. So we need to fucking adapt and change the gun laws. 

It's a lot harder to understand/fix what's going on in a person's mind than it is to limit their access to guns.

 

 

[NateHitch 1282]

 
It's a lot harder to understand/fix what's going on in a person's mind than it is to limit their access to guns.

Maybe we should limit access to psychotropic drugs too. Like a joint deal, kill two birds with one stone. Restrict the desire to kill while restricting the means to kill



Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

27 minutes ago, NateHitch said:

 

Lol you think Big Pharma's gonna be easier to reason with than the gun lobby. That's hilarious. 

Maybe we should limit access to psychotropic drugs too. Like a joint deal, kill two birds with one stone. Restrict the desire to kill while restricting the means to kill



Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk
 

 

 

[Hank Kingsley 20673]

49 minutes ago, NateHitch said:

Maybe we should limit access to psychotropic drugs too. Like a joint deal, kill two birds with one stone. Restrict the desire to kill while restricting the means to kill
 

 

Sure, but Big Pharma and the NRA stand in the way. 

 

[XYZ 2154]

2 hours ago, NateHitch said:

Maybe we should limit access to psychotropic drugs too. Like a joint deal, kill two birds with one stone. Restrict the desire to kill while restricting the means to kill
 

 

That would make sense, so no.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

8 hours ago, XYZ said:

That would make sense, so no.

There are ill people in our society. Psychotropic drugs are used to treat illness and are prescribed by medical professionals. Why would we limit the treatment options of medical professionals?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13406]

13 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Everything I’ve read says gun deaths in schools are significantly lower than they were 25 years ago when I was in school.  

I was in school in the 80s.  Can you list the school shootings from that time when 5+ (or pick your own mass shooting definition) students were killed?  

Or are you comparing 2018 to 1993 only.  You may be right that 1993 itself was worse than 2018.  

[XYZ 2154]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

There are ill people in our society. Psychotropic drugs are used to treat illness and are prescribed by medical professionals. Why would we limit the treatment options of medical professionals?

I’m not sure if you are serious. Have you read the warning labels on some psychotropic medications? They basically say “if you are under 25, this drug could turn you into a homicidal/suicidal monster”. Sometimes drugs produce more harm than good. Example: opioids. You could have said the exact same thing about opioids: “opioids are used to treat pain and are prescribed by medical professionals. Why would we limit the treatment options of medical professionals?”. In many cases, it seems that “medical professionals” just push whatever the industry is peddling. Opioids, statins, SSRIs...if they make billions for pharma, they must be good for you.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

I see lots of folks compare our current rates to those in the 80s and early 90s. This is a comparison to a time experiencing a crack-cocaine epidemic and the war on drugs. Yes, rates were higher then. However since the crack wars, change in rates have been relatively flat. 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

What is the best way to compare our current rates of firearm violence? IMO looking at just one thing will skew perspective. In order to attempt to grasp a full perspective of a complicated issue such as gun violence in the US, we need to be able to absorb a range of information.

Vox does an OK job of attempting to do this. Some key points from their presentation. They also have an easy to consume video.

- US’s rate of firearm violence far exceeds any first world country.

- US has way more guns per capita than other countries.

- Mass shootings make up a tiny fraction of the overall firearm deaths in the US.

- Mass shootings (those with 4 victims) occur about once a day in the US.

- States with more guns have more gun deaths.

- Countries with more guns have more gun deaths.

- The US does not have more violent crime in general than other first world countries. The US has more lethal violence - driven by prevalence in firearms.

- Areas with more gun regulations tend to have lower rates of firearm deaths.

- Most gun deaths are suicides.

- States with more firearms have more suicides.

- Firearms are much more efficient at suicide. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

[Bogeywon 2518]

not much to add except its sad that someone had to buy bullet proof plates for backpacks.  kids should be able to go to school without fear.  are banning AR's the right move who knows. just my .02

[GW Hayduke 1951]

9 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I’m not sure if you are serious. Have you read the warning labels on some psychotropic medications? They basically say “if you are under 25, this drug could turn you into a homicidal/suicidal monster”. Sometimes drugs produce more harm than good. Example: opioids. You could have said the exact same thing about opioids: “opioids are used to treat pain and are prescribed by medical professionals. Why would we limit the treatment options of medical professionals?”. In many cases, it seems that “medical professionals” just push whatever the industry is peddling. Opioids, statins, SSRIs...if they make billions for pharma, they must be good for you.

It seems that you don’t trust licenced medical professionals. Who do you trust to treat people who are ill?

[BabaYaga 15205]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

There are ill people in our society. Psychotropic drugs are used to treat illness and are prescribed by medical professionals. Why would we limit the treatment options of medical professionals?

Is this a joke?  Just stop.  Next thing you'll start citing articles from Vox, oh, wait.....

[GW Hayduke 1951]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Is this a joke?  Just stop.  Next thing you'll start citing articles from Vox, oh, wait.....

Trolling doesn’t add to the discussion. 

[BabaYaga 15205]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Trolling doesn’t add to the discussion. 

Neither do mindless appeal to authority dismissals of valid points regarding what is seen by both sides as a real problem with over-medicating children with drugse we do not fully understand.

[bad_teammate 13131]

Hogg's classmate Kyle Kashuv and this Kent State chick are so nasty towards David Hogg who, as far as I can tell, has never said a word about them. I don't get it. What the hell is this about? What is it about reactionary right-wing politics that makes people such pieces of shit? (I guess it's the other way around, actually.)

 

 

[bad_teammate 13131]

Christ, there are even more. ... what the fuck?

 

[GW Hayduke 1951]

17 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Neither do mindless appeal to authority dismissals of valid points regarding what is seen by both sides as a real problem with over-medicating children with drugse we do not fully understand.

Trolling isn’t justified and is a sad response to weak positions. I get that you feel ingrained on the side against gun control, but you don’t have to act like you are argueing from a weak poisition.

Edited June 8, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[BabaYaga 15205]

Is the little demagogue who referred to the NRA as child murderers, Dana Loesch as Disgusting, claiming Rubio was bribed by the NRA in exchange for students lives, and called republicans in general sick fuckers, and tried to ruin Laura Ingrams career upset now?  Isn't that too bad...

[GW Hayduke 1951]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Christ, there are even more. ... what the fuck?

 

I suspect this us-vs-them, tribalism politics has led folks to think that trolling is an appropriate response to take. This mentality led to someone swatting Hogg. Why do folks think this type of trolling is ok? 

[BabaYaga 15205]

4 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Trolling isn’t justified and is a sad response to weak positions. I get that you feel engrained on the side against gun control, but you don’t have to act like you are argueing from a weak poisition.

You got called out from those of both sides for your weak sauce.  Stop while you're behind.  

[XYZ 2154]

4 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Trolling isn’t justified and is a sad response to weak positions. I get that you feel engrained on the side against gun control, but you don’t have to act like you are argueing from a weak poisition.

What you quoted is not trolling.

[GW Hayduke 1951]

2 minutes ago, XYZ said:

What you quoted is not trolling.

That was his attempt to justify trolling. 

[GW Hayduke 1951]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I was in school in the 80s.  Can you list the school shootings from that time when 5+ (or pick your own mass shooting definition) students were killed?  

Or are you comparing 2018 to 1993 only.  You may be right that 1993 itself was worse than 2018.  

We were experiencing the tale end of the crack-cocaine epidemic in 1993. 1993 isn’t a good year to compare gun violence. Since then, change in rates of gun violence have been relatively flat, while also being much higher when compared to other countries.

Edited June 8, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[bernorange 8348]

I visited this Bureau of Justice Statistics page:  https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=nvat

You can select the custom tables tab.  Then select:

• Personal victimization
• Years - full range
• Victimization Type - Aggravated Assault (Really, any of the violent victimization categories if you like)
• First variable - Presence of weapon
• Second variable - Weapon category

The third row of the result shows the number of aggravated assaults (or victimizations depending upon what criteria you chose) with firearms over the years from 1993 to 2016.  The numbers decrease significantly from '93 to ~'99 and then bounce around in a range.  The lowest data point is in 2015.  These numbers represent events.  I don't have (didn't bother to look up) population data to compare year over year, but if you agree that population has been growing year over year, the rate of gun violence, at least as measured by BJS statistics (NCVS data), has definitely been trending down.

[bad_teammate 13131]

48 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Is the little demagogue who referred to the NRA as child murderers, Dana Loesch as Disgusting, claiming Rubio was bribed by the NRA in exchange for students lives, and called republicans in general sick fuckers, and tried to ruin Laura Ingrams career upset now?  Isn't that too bad...

No, he didn't.

And as far as I can tell, David Hogg (the one people know) isn't openly upset about any of the other kids constantly attacking him. He seems pretty focused on punching up and hasn't, as far as I can tell, responded to any of the other kids trying to make their names off of him.

[David Dennison 18646]

55 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Is the little demagogue who referred to the NRA as child murderers, Dana Loesch as Disgusting, claiming Rubio was bribed by the NRA in exchange for students lives, and called republicans in general sick fuckers, and tried to ruin Laura Ingrams career upset now?  Isn't that too bad...

Republicans in general are sick fuckers, so there's that.

[BabaYaga 15205]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No, he didn't.

And as far as I can tell, David Hogg (the one people know) isn't openly upset about any of the other kids constantly attacking him. He seems pretty focused on punching up and hasn't, as far as I can tell, responded to any of the other kids trying to make their names off of him.

So it was just the NRA and their supporters that he called sick fuckers and child murderers.  So it's OK then.  Never mind.  This completely indemnifies him from any subsequent personal attacks.