Mass Shootings

[jimmyjazz 47131]

I'm no fan of the ideas of arming teachers and locking down schools, but if we're truly going to insist that all ideas are on the table . . . then all ideas have to be on the table.  I can't in good conscience rant about restricting magazine capacity, tightening private gun sale regulations, etc. without allowing for other potential solutions.

In the end I think the optimum solution will probably be a combination of small, incremental effects on multiple fronts.

[krutov 18]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most of the white boys that do these mass shootings are suicidal.  They want to die.  Black people are far less suicidal than whites on the whole and I have my own theories on that as well.

I also think hormonal/sexual frustration plays a part in it too which explains why these shooters are almost always males.

not a lot of native american school shooters though, and they have the highest suicide rates of all.

and if we're going to generalize about sexual frustration, there's plenty of that not happening across all ethnicities.

it's cultural.  it has to do with how your standard issue american public high school social system works and what happens to low status white boys.  how many private school shootings have there been?  how about parochial schools?  how many at all boy or all girl schools?

at most high schools in any given year there are a small cohort of kids who fit the profile for potenital school shooters.  if you want to avoid school shootings, engage hard with those kids.

 

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, krutov said:

not a lot of native american school shooters though, and they have the highest suicide rates of all.

Because there are so many native Americans students 

[T-dog 202]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm no fan of the ideas of arming teachers and locking down schools, but if we're truly going to insist that all ideas are on the table . . . then all ideas have to be on the table.  I can't in good conscience rant about restricting magazine capacity, tightening private gun sale regulations, etc. without allowing for other potential solutions.

In the end I think the optimum solution will probably be a combination of small, incremental effects on multiple fronts.

Small, incremental effects on multiple fronts will be the only solution to a problem. No simple singular option to cure it all is available. 

But you also have to weigh the side effects of every measure. I personally feel that 'locking up the schools' by ever-tightened security would create a bunch of other problems for kids

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 minutes ago, T-dog said:

As I said, right now you take guns because they are the most convenient solution. If you wouldn't have guns, you'd take something else. Hence the example from a country where guns are more regulated than in the US

Your example doesn’t have anything to do with schools. Yes, there are knife attacks in other countries. There are cars mowing into crowds. We have both of those here too. Explosives? Yep, we have those too. 

Yes, if we get rid of the guns, some people will still be able to attack people with a car or a knife or a bomb. That is true. But we wouldn’t have school shootings every week. Isn’t that the point? Isn’t that the goal? 

Your point, but please correct me if I’m wrong, is that there is a cultural problem and we need to fix that too. Possibly, but how do you fix inequality? 

Some People have “stuff” that other people want. Which leads to jealousy, rage, depression, etc. Stuff can be anything from popularity to physical possessions, but most of the time it is a female’s affection. This “problem” has existed since the beginning of time. I’m sure we can start a anti-jealousy campaign, and unlike the drug war, it might actually make some difference. 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

In the end I think the optimum solution will probably be a combination of small, incremental effects on multiple fronts

Yep. 

But we first have to acknowledge the real problem is with our society that produces these monsters. 

These homicidal maniacs don’t “just happen”.

They are grown through isolation, detachment, and neglect.

Then they lash out at the world around them in the most violent way possible and Ted Cruz gets to call them pure evil.

That evil didn’t fall from the sky.  It was nurtured in an environment our society allowed.

[jimmyjazz 47131]

Most parents will tell you by observation that nature beats nurture.  Kids just seem to be who they are.  Most parenting efforts are targeted at keeping kids between the ditches.

That said, I find it terribly distressing to think that truly evil people were that way at birth.  I can't really buy that.  I see evidence that the abused become abusers and it tells me that nurture DOES matter, and in extreme forms (either abuse or perhaps even neglect) that bad shit will happen.  But mostly I think depressed loner kids are likely wired that way.  I don't know that we "produce" them.  I'm pretty sure we don't do enough to include them, though.

[T-dog 202]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Your example doesn’t have anything to do with schools. Yes, there are knife attacks in other countries. There are cars mowing into crowds. We have both of those here too. Explosives? Yep, we have those too. 

Yes, if we get rid of the guns, some people will still be able to attack people with a car or a knife or a bomb. That is true. But we wouldn’t have school shootings every week. Isn’t that the point? Isn’t that the goal? 

Your point, but please correct me if I’m wrong, is that there is a cultural problem and we need to fix that too. Possibly, but how do you fix inequality? 

Some People have “stuff” that other people want. Which leads to jealousy, rage, depression, etc. Stuff can be anything from popularity to physical possessions, but most of the time it is a female’s affection. This “problem” has existed since the beginning of time. I’m sure we can start a anti-jealousy campaign, and unlike the drug war, it might actually make some difference. 

 

No my premier point is that while taking guns away will decrease or even eliminate school shootings, it does not solve the underlying problems we have which make school shootings occur. Instead, other outlets will be found. But if your goal is to eliminate school shootings, sure go ahead and seize every gun and there will only be a limited number of them, but potentially some other kind of attack because you have only cured one symptom but not the disease.

If you read my earlier post I laid out 3 steps which I believe are the most effective means to tackle these issues, one of them is gun control, but proclaiming gun control as the single measure to cure our society is to short-sighted. My point is not necessarily that is a cultural problem, but that a complex problem needs complex solutions. 

I'm not quite sure how to interpret your inequality comment though. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

But mostly I think depressed loner kids are likely wired that way.  I don't know that we "produce" them. 

They’re wired that way but our society pushes them too.  The worst inherent traits of these loners are exacerbated by the social media and digital culture of today.  

You’re either in or you’re out and if you’re out, you’re a worthless piece of shit that has little to contribute to the social aspects of teenage life.  

It’s nothing like it was 20 years ago when no one in high school had a cell phone or a Facebook page.

[DixonHur 11959]

3 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

Dan Patrick: teachers are part of a “well-run militia.”  Was that in the Federalist Papers?

 

I like how he strategically gets it wrong...he uses "well run" instead of the actual wording, "well regulated" because he doesn't want to open the door to regulations.

In other news, this year has been deadlier for American students than US military members.  Soon kids are going to have to enlist so they can be shipped to Afghanistan where it's safe.

[Brisketexan 106876]

Most parents will tell you by observation that nature beats nurture.  Kids just seem to be who they are.  Most parenting efforts are targeted at keeping kids between the ditches.
That said, I find it terribly distressing to think that truly evil people were that way at birth.  I can't really buy that.  I see evidence that the abused become abusers and it tells me that nurture DOES matter, and in extreme forms (either abuse or perhaps even neglect) that bad shit will happen.  But mostly I think depressed loner kids are likely wired that way.  I don't know that we "produce" them.  I'm pretty sure we don't do enough to include them, though.

Don’t want this post to get lost. The first point is frighteningly correct. Yes, nurture has a role...but the degree to which nature controls is incredible.

Perhaps that means that the efforts to keep the worst of them between the ditches is our great social challenge.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

3 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

 

Why do people keep saying prison? A prison is a place designed to keep you in. A secure school/workplace is designed to keep criminal elements out. Like almost every Fortune 500 client site I visit. Do you think those people feel like they are working in a prison?

 

My work is certainly like a prison. But it pays well enough so I don't complain.

[sugar 100]

We'll talk about this for a week, discussing every nuance and angle, and then within a week or two, it'll happen again. The common denominator is guns. 

[sugar 100]

where will it happen next!?? Georgia? Montana? Cincinnati?

How many kids will die this year? 55!?? 66??

This is all there is to discuss, because the NRA has guns to sell and the GOP has lies to tell.

[sugar 100]

6 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

Cars, knives, and pvc pipe can be just as lethal as a gun. I bet you give 2 shits about them.

Actually, Cars will kill everybody on earth due to global WARming. Thanks Oil! 

As I said somewhere on this board, get rid of guns, oil & religion and earth might well become a heavenly garden of eden.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

15 minutes ago, sugar said:

We'll talk about this for a week, discussing every nuance and angle, and then within a week or two, it'll happen again. The common denominator is guns. 

And if you take away all the guns it will happen again the next week or two except it will be something other than guns unless we actually try and treat the disease rather than the symptoms.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

Actually, Cars will kill everybody on earth due to global WARming. Thanks Oil! 
As I said somewhere on this board, get rid of guns, oil & religion and earth might well become a heavenly garden of eden.

Post less.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

Has anyone brought up ammo yet? Make that shit hard as fuck to get and it won't matter if there are nine billion guns out there. 

[sugar 100]

Sure. Ban bullets. Whatever it takes to save the lives of kids by limiting the fire power of American maniacs, i'm all for it. Conservatives are out buying more guns in honor of the dead children that liberal culture has murdered with diversity training and health care and gun control discussions and what not.

[sugar 100]

Guns don't kill people, MSNBC kills people.

[sugar 100]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Post less.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Okay. "Less".

[Thatguy 9361]

10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most of the white boys that do these mass shootings are suicidal.  They want to die.  Black people are far less suicidal than whites on the whole and I have my own theories on that as well.

I also think hormonal/sexual frustration plays a part in it too which helps explains why these shooters are almost always males.

  The black/white thing probably has a lot to do with the everyone gets a trophy era. Black guys embrace life isn't fair at an early age. I believe a lot of these kids are experiencing failures for the first time in their life and don't know how to handle it emotionally. That is my theory.

[Buzzrock 15136]

You can only create the illusion the schools are safer.  Build all the fences, hire all the security guards, make the place a fortress but those kids are still going in and out every day. 
Still plenty of opportunities for a shooter to plan an effective attack.
But go ahead and make the parents and kids feel safer with better doors and locks.
 

Well that’s an interesting perspective. I think you’re wrong. Fences and security guards and cameras are pretty much the standards for physical security. They also don’t fuck with anyone’s narrative on gun control or mental health, nor do they require changes to the constitution.

They also don’t support either narrative either so maybe that’s why you’re so quick to dismiss it.

[Buzzrock 15136]

Small, incremental effects on multiple fronts will be the only solution to a problem. No simple singular option to cure it all is available. 
But you also have to weigh the side effects of every measure. I personally feel that 'locking up the schools' by ever-tightened security would create a bunch of other problems for kids

Like what?

[Buzzrock 15136]

Yep. 
But we first have to acknowledge the real problem is with our society that produces these monsters. 
These homicidal maniacs don’t “just happen”.
They are grown through isolation, detachment, and neglect.
Then they lash out at the world around them in the most violent way possible and Ted Cruz gets to call them pure evil.
That evil didn’t fall from the sky.  It was nurtured in an environment our society allowed.

I pretty much agree. But you can’t legislate a fix for that.

[Buzzrock 15136]

We'll talk about this for a week, discussing every nuance and angle, and then within a week or two, it'll happen again. The common denominator is guns. 

And if you take away all the guns it will happen again the next week or two except it will be something other than guns unless we actually try and treat the disease rather than the symptoms.

Yup, these are the only two talking points. Both of which go nowhere.

No other solutions are worth discussing.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

 

Well that’s an interesting perspective. I think you’re wrong. Fences and security guards and cameras are pretty much the standards for physical security. They also don’t fuck with anyone’s narrative on gun control or mental health, nor do they require changes to the constitution.

They also don’t support either narrative either so maybe that’s why you’re so quick to dismiss it.

 

Fences, guards and metal detectors do seem to stop the one-off school shootings.  Not sure if they would stop a gun man trying to kills dozens.  There is also a bottleneck at a fence that would make it easy for someone to kill many. Sure it would be just outside of the school as opposed to in the school but does that make a difference.

But worth talking about. 

[MoJames 8258]

I think it is odd that those in this thread pointing to problems outside of guns, generally don't want any changes to gun laws.

But those who work in the medical field and agree that the behavioral health system is broke in this country, have no issues with changes in the behavioral health system.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I want changes to gun laws to reduce body counts but that would only be a topical treatment while neglecting the underlying problem.

[MoJames 8258]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I want changes to gun laws to reduce body counts but that would only be a topical treatment while neglecting the underlying problem.

Assuming mass shootings is simply associated with a single problem is a bit narrow minded.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Assuming mass shootings is simply associated with a single problem is a bit narrow minded.

You misunderstood.  The underlying problem is why do we have so many mass shooters?  There’s likely numerous contributing factors to this... that’s what needs to be addressed instead of banning guns and calling it a day.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

11 minutes ago, MoJames said:

I think it is odd that those in this thread pointing to problems outside of guns, generally don't want any changes to gun laws.

But those who work in the medical field and agree that the behavioral health system is broke in this country, have no issues with changes in the behavioral health system.

You cannot separate the two, they're linked.  The people doing this aren't well adjusted, kids or adults. They've all pretty much seemed to have had histories of mental issues.

[MoJames 8258]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You misunderstood.  The underlying problem is why do we have so many mass shooters?  There’s likely numerous contributing factors to this... that’s what needs to be addressed instead of banning guns and calling it a day.

And just to be clear I am not in the camp of banning every single firearm.

[MoJames 8258]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You cannot separate the two, they're linked.  The people doing this aren't well adjusted, kids or adults. They've all pretty much seemed to have had histories of mental issues.

I guess the part of the equation that constantly pushes towards the need for some changes in gun laws is the vast discrepancy in mass killings in the US from US citizens when compared to the rest of the world.

 

Mental health issues are not isolated to this country and the tools available in other countries to help with mental health are no different.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

4 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Mental health issues are not isolated to this country and the tools available in other countries to help with mental health are no different.

Our society is much different though.  We work ourselves to death compared to many European countries.  That has to have some sociological and psychological effects when it comes to raising kids in the United States.

[atomheartbevo 90638]

delete.

Edited May 21, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 90638]

delete.

Edited May 21, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 90638]

22 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

You do realize that the Republicans and Democrats passed the Fix the NICS bill as part of their budget omnibus that Trump signed into law, right?

You do realize that Fix the NICS was more about forcing federal agencies to improve their reporting and improving cooperation with states.  It doesn't address the other issues (which some states are trying to address through their "red flag" legislation).  

[Chuckie Finster 23039]

Gun rights advocates claim that the vast majority of guns are in the hands of responsible owners, so I think it's time that we pass some laws to ensure that is the case.

If a gun crime is committed by someone other than the legal owner of that firearm, then both the criminal and the legal gun owner receive the same punishment.  So if your kid takes your gun and blows apart his school, you are now treated like the murderer.

I bet that would make most gun owners double check their gun safes every night.  And I don't know why anyone would oppose this, because if most gun owners are as responsible as we are being led to believe, then most gun owners have absolutely nothing to worry about.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

The triple Lindy 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, MoJames said:

I guess the part of the equation that constantly pushes towards the need for some changes in gun laws is the vast discrepancy in mass killings in the US from US citizens when compared to the rest of the world.

 

Mental health issues are not isolated to this country and the tools available in other countries to help with mental health are no different.

Guns are to easy to obtain here. Also don't know how mental health is dealt with in other countries.

[bernorange 8385]

I received this via email this morning:

Quote

...
Following the Parkland incident in February, I communicated with all of you about the importance of working together as a community to report areas of concern.  We rolled out a new reporting tool on the District and each campus website called “See Something, Say Something” to allow for anonymous reporting of those actions, social media posts, or anything appearing suspicious or threatening safety in any way.  Soon after, our community and students rose to the occasion by using this tool to address an online threat posted by a student. ...

This isn't the school my kids go to, but it's close by:

Quote

A Harris County judge ruled Monday that two juveniles should remain in custody for threatening to unleash gunfire at Clear Brook High School in Friendswood.

"After a brief hearing today, the two minors were detained as we had requested," Assistant District Attorney Martina Longoria said. "This will allow more time to evaluate the evidence and the recommendations of the mental-health professionals while keeping the community safe and free from threats of violence."

Under state law, it is a crime to threaten to use a firearm on school property or on a bus being used to take students to or from a school-sponsored event.

The two were arrested Thursday on the anniversary of the Columbine High School shooting tragedy.

Both students are boys. One is a freshman, and the other a sophomore at the high school. Police say they don't appear to know each other, and the separate social media posts are not believed to have been coordinated. The identity of a juvenile charged with a crime is confidential.

Images and messages, which appear to be threatening the school were posted on their Snapchat accounts, according to police.

School administrators were alerted to the messages by other students. ...

http://abc13.com/news/hs-students-arrested-over-threats-to-stay-jailed/1912256/

So, that worked.

~~~

I'll repeat from previous discussions measures that I think would have a meaningful impact:

• Re-evaluate age of adulthood.  Teenagers are not a homogenous group.  Some mature faster than others.  We have tidal cultural forces that promote certain ideas as rights of passage in this country and most of them speak to very immature decision making IMO.  There is a significant enough percentage of teenagers that have not reached the maturity threshold of adulthood by 18 that an examination of the age of adulthood is warranted.  Specifically, I am talking about the age where adults can legally enter contracts, purchase guns, purchase regulated drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.), etc.  I favor moving the age of adulthood to 19 or 20 - when the average person will have graduated from high school.  Or perhaps, make it conditional - 21 or 18 + high school graduate / GED.
• Strengthen penalties for adults who provide access to minors for restricted/regulated items when they commit a crime.  I mean both guns and drugs.  Adults (whether parents or not) who provide access to guns or drugs (alcohol, etc.) to minors should be charged as accessories for any crimes said minors commit with (or while under the influence of) the restricted items. 
• Improve "gun violence restraining orders"/"red flag" laws.  I have read about several variations of this idea.  I support the ones with due process where the public can petition a judge to issue an order for immediate action and there is a course for due process to take place and sort out the details.  I am not in favor of the more Draconian versions that provide for LEOs to confiscate firearms on the spot and on their whim.  That's anathema.

Aside from the above, I'm pondering whether it might not be a worthwhile investment of student academic focus to require some course(s) in peer development.  Sort of a mish mash of sociology and civics that talks about the issues of individual behavior/choices, peer groups, bullying, social media, etc.  I haven't fully developed this idea.  I think it might be constructive to have kids spend some time thinking about how they engage (or avoid engaging) with their peers.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, Chuckie Finster said:

Gun rights advocates claim that the vast majority of guns are in the hands of responsible owners, so I think it's time that we pass some laws to ensure that is the case.

If a gun crime is committed by someone other than the legal owner of that firearm, then both the criminal and the legal gun owner receive the same punishment.  So if your kid takes your gun and blows apart his school, you are now treated like the murderer.

I bet that would make most gun owners double check their gun safes every night.  And I don't know why anyone would oppose this, because if most gun owners are as responsible as we are being led to believe, then most gun owners have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 

I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

[bolverk 30320]

This seems like a pretty cool idea to help mitigate social isolation:

https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/50960/how-being-part-of-a-house-within-a-school-helps-students-gain-a-sense-of-belonging?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180520

 

[atomheartbevo 90638]

14 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Mental health issues are not isolated to this country and the tools available in other countries to help with mental health are no different.

I know some of the "red flag" laws are trying to address this, but we are going to have to take a long hard look at access to firearms for those with a history of mental health issues - it would have prevented some of the past shootings if family members of those being treated were flagged/not allowed to buy firearms for the time being, or have them present, until that person is out from under their care/roof.

We already ban felons from owning firearms, and you would have to be a real dumbass to buy a firearm if you're living in a household with a felon, or to even have a firearm in said household - unless you take some very serious precautions and can prove at any time that the felon has absolutely no access to the firearm, not only could the felon be in a world of shit legally, but you as well.

Edited May 21, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[Chuckie Finster 23039]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 

I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

If the kid is leaving a supervised party where alcohol was served and does that, then the parents WOULD be held responsible.

There's room for some "common sense" gray here.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[atomheartbevo 90638]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 

I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

We already see plenty of civil lawsuits filed against parents for shit their kids do.   If you can show the parents were idiots, particularly in regards to kids with mental health issues, we need to have that discussion, even if nothing changes.

At the end of the day, the guns themselves are not the issue, the issue is about access to said guns.

[atomheartbevo 90638]

14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm no fan of the ideas of arming teachers and locking down schools, but if we're truly going to insist that all ideas are on the table . . . then all ideas have to be on the table.  I can't in good conscience rant about restricting magazine capacity, tightening private gun sale regulations, etc. without allowing for other potential solutions.

In the end I think the optimum solution will probably be a combination of small, incremental effects on multiple fronts.

The Republicans and NRA are unwilling to make small changes, because they use the idea that even small changes will lead to bigger changes in order to drum up support at the polls and raise money.  

They don't care that making even small changes that could lower these shootings by a measurable effect would take a lot of wind out of the sails of those pushing for major gun control.  They are only interested in getting votes and donations, not protecting gun owners.

Instead of small, incremental changes that the GOP, NRA, etc. would be able to have a hand in, or instead of a major overhaul in how we deal with mental health issues, we're going to get some major fucking changes pushed through by a Dem-controlled Congress that will leave us praying the Supreme Court is more conservative than it is.

All it's going to take is some kids being executed on somebody's livestream. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

43 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 

I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

We should be able to apply a test to see if the parent(s) put in reasonable measures to ensure the minor didn't get access to the gun.   Leave a gun leaning against the wall in a back closet would probably fail that test.     

and I agree its only a matter of time (next year?) before we see a school shooting livestreamed.   

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13624]

Our society is much different though.  We work ourselves to death compared to many European countries.  That has to have some sociological and psychological effects when it comes to raising kids in the United States.

Labor laws are family value laws.