Mass Shootings

[Mole 4,319]

3 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

 

I pretty much agree. But you can’t legislate a fix for that.

 

You aren't necessarily doing it, but there's a certain amount of limiting the thinking to national legislation that shows up in these discussions. National legislation is important, but there are actions that individual communities can take outside of any legislative body that can make their schools safer. School policies, community programs started by motivated individuals, or simply working to change the culture within a community. It might not do anything for kids across the country, but it can make your community safer. This is where the defeatism that plagues these threads ("the NRA owns Washington", "wait two weeks until it happens again") misses out. Even in the face of political corruption, you can make things better in your neighborhood, and that's a pretty big deal. Every fix doesn't have to be legislated.

[Chuckie Finster 22,594]

13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

We should be able to apply a test to see if the parent(s) put in reasonable measures to ensure the minor didn't get access to the gun.   Leave a gun leaning against the wall in a back closet would probably fail that test.     

 and I agree its only a matter of time (next year?) before we see a school shooting livestreamed.   

A responsible gun owner should never allow his gun to end up in someone else's hands.  Period.  There's no "reasonable measures" test necessary.  A burgler breaks into your house while you are out of town?  Better make sure that you put your toys away before you left.

If "the majority of us are responsible gun owners" is reality, then there should be no qualifications needed. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

We should be able to apply a test to see if the parent(s) put in reasonable measures to ensure the minor didn't get access to the gun.   Leave a gun leaning against the wall in a back closet would probably fail that test.     

and I agree its only a matter of time (next year?) before we see a school shooting livestreamed.   

This. I went through an adoption process not too long ago, and part of the process involved having to fulfill the requirement of any firearms in the home must be securely stored/under-lock-and-key. That meant I had to take my 12 gauge shotgun I only use for bird hunting and move it from it's soft case standing up in the back of my closet to a more secured location. Which was fine and something I probably should have done before, anyways.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,406]

9 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

A responsible gun owner should never allow his gun to end up in someone else's hands.  Period.  There's no "reasonable measures" test necessary.  A burgler breaks into your house while you are out of town?  Better make sure that you put your toys away before you left.

If "the majority of us are responsible gun owners" is reality, then there should be no qualifications needed. 

No one is saying that a parent that locks up their weapon should be responsible if their child somehow gets a hold of it.  But if the parent does zero to secure the weapon, I don't have a problem with the parent taking on some of the responsibility of the crime.   Just as when someone buys a gun for someone that cannot legally buy one on their own.  

[Neonmoon 38,127]

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

Sure...

Too many fucking teenage homicidal maniacs!

[David Dennison 18,646]

9 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

There are too many guns in America.

[DixonHur 11,150]

6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

Cultural confluence of entitlement, social media, and celebrity

 

[Mole 4,319]

29 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

Something has changed culturally with the way Millennials were raised. Our culture is doing something to alienate kids in a different way and/or not doing something to build up needed resilience. I think it's lots of little problems adding up: 24/7 bullying, the angst of seeing the perfect social media life of others, no physical outlet for the frustration, the way we raise boys, the near requirement of dual income homes, helicopter parenting, glorification of violence, insane gun culture, the noisiness of modern life, celebrity culture, high-pressure testing throughout schooling, etc.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Mole

[David Dennison 18,646]

1 minute ago, Mole said:

Something has changed culturally with the way Millennials were raised. Our culture is doing something to alienate kids in a different way and/or not doing something to build up needed resilience. I think it's lots of little problems adding up: 24/7 bullying, the angst of seeing the perfect social media life of others, no physical outlet for the frustration, the way we raise boys, the near requirement of dual income homes, helicopter parenting, glorification of violence, insane gun culture, the noisiness of modern life, celebrity culture, etc.

A lot of it might be that they realize they've been lied to about America.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

A big part of what's changed is kids aren't allowed to settle theIr own issues, and sometimes that requires a bit of physical contact.  Mothers helicopter their kids to death, everyone gets a trophy.  We've created a culture of emotionally weak kids who can't deal with adversity because it's dealt with for them.  

[Mole 4,319]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

A lot of it might be that they realize they've been lied to about America.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

[David Dennison 18,646]

Just now, Mole said:

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

No. I don't expect much.

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

A big part of what's changed is kids aren't allowed to settle theIr own issues, and sometimes that requires a bit of physical contact.  Mothers helicopter their kids to death, everyone gets a trophy.  We've created a culture of emotionally weak kids who can't deal with adversity because it's dealt with for them.  

I don't believe that for a minute.  It's an overblown line of thought that isn't actually true in the real world.

[MoJames 8,241]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Our society is much different though.  We work ourselves to death compared to many European countries.  That has to have some sociological and psychological effects when it comes to raising kids in the United States.

Well not certain how reliable US news is but here is a quick look at countries hours worked per year and we are fairly average.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-09-02/hardest-working-countries-ranked-by-hours-worked-per-year

 

Quote

Struggling with work-life balance and often opting to pass up vacation plans to spend more time in the office, workers in the U.S. may be surprised to learn that there are a number of other countries in which workers put in more hours. In fact, the average 42.8 work week in Mexico is about a full workday longer than the average U.S. worker's 34.4 hours work week.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

17 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I don't believe that for a minute.  It's an overblown line of thought that isn't actually true in the real world.

Well that's good for you but it's a contributing  factor.  Kids aren't allowed to settle their own issues and that's an issue

[David Dennison 18,646]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Well that's good for you but it's a contributing  factor.  Kids aren't allowed to settle their own issues and that's an issue

At what age does it become inappropriate to settle differences with "a bit of physical contact?"

[Chuckie Finster 22,594]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

No one is saying that a parent that locks up their weapon should be responsible if their child somehow gets a hold of it.  But if the parent does zero to secure the weapon, I don't have a problem with the parent taking on some of the responsibility of the crime.   Just as when someone buys a gun for someone that cannot legally buy one on their own.  

I absolutely am saying this.  If your child "somehow" gets a hold of your gun, then you are not being a responsible gun owner.  And if "most gun owners are responsible" is the argument being used again gun control, then there needs to be some sort of repercussions for not being responsible.

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Well that's good for you but it's a contributing  factor.  Kids aren't allowed to settle their own issues and that's an issue

LOL sez you and every other adult who is incapable of remembering what it was actually like when they were a kid.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,406]

I don't know if there is 1 underlying issue to the problem of why kids wants to shoot up their classmates, or why a guy shoots up the Vegas strip, etc.

[MoJames 8,241]

2 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I absolutely am saying this.  If your child "somehow" gets a hold of your gun, then you are not being a responsible gun owner.  And if "most gun owners are responsible" is the argument being used again gun control, then there needs to be some sort of repercussions for not being responsible.

I Agree with this. Gun safes are plenty affordable if you are able to afford the gun.

[staboner 4,956]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

the problem is mentally unstable people having access to guns

people need to stop yelling its only guns and/or its only mental health. and stop posting it to. 

its like everything else in this echo chamber of modern society. we need to stop yelling past each other (and stop voting for Rs or Ds, same same)

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At what age does it become inappropriate to settle differences with "a bit of physical contact?"

When  you need to defend yourself currently there is zero tolerance for any physical activity between students on any campus in the country for the most part 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

LOL sez you and every other adult who is incapable of remembering what it was actually like when they were a kid.

 Please stop saying stupid ass shit everybody remembers what it's like to be a kid 

[thrillhammer 683]

lots of talk about kids, and millenials, and helicopter moms, but way too many of these mass shootings are carried out by adults.  in the same vein, lots of talk about assault weapons ban when this particular shooting happened without them.  

how about, instead of talking about the problems with kids these days, we talk about the problems we, as americans, handle being slighted.  our ex-wife wants custody, we go to her worlk and shoot it up.  our girlfriend sleeps around on us, we go to her work or home and shoot it up.  in this case, a girl turned him down, so he goes to her school and shoots it up.     why is it we are so quick to resort to gun violence when we are slighted? maybe anger management should be required before gun ownership?

[staboner 4,956]

1 minute ago, MoJames said:

I Agree with this. Gun safes are plenty affordable if you are able to afford the gun.

on the guns side - yes, punish negligence. also make purchasing a weapon more rigorous in some capacity

on the mental health side - thats a massive ocean - maybe get some our leading minds in science and therapy together and invest money, time and effort to nationalize some mental health care concepts. maybe even remove it from health insurance and/or make it stand alone in some way. i don't think just giving it to children is complete enough. the country has loads of mental health issues to work through. 

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 Please stop saying stupid ass shit everybody remembers what it's like to be a kid 

No, you actually don't.  You're following the time-honored "well, back in MY day we . . .  blah blah blah".  It's bullshit.  Things haven't changed nearly as much as grumpy fucks like you want to believe they have.  Full stop.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,406]

6 minutes ago, staboner said:

the problem is mentally unstable people having access to guns

people need to stop yelling its only guns and/or its only mental health. and stop posting it to. 

its like everything else in this echo chamber of modern society. we need to stop yelling past each other (and stop voting for Rs or Ds, same same)

great point.  I would like to think we all agree that some people do not need access to guns.   And if we can agree on that one statement; how can we identify the kids,  prevent them from accessing guns (or certain types of guns), and ultimately get them the help they need.   Perhaps we can save lives and hopefully turn some kids into good adults.

by the way, if we set the bar that any legislation or action has to have prevented every past and possible future shooting, we may as well stop talking right there.  Any action will never stop these shootings 100%.  That's impossible.

[DixonHur 11,150]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

No, you actually don't.  You're following the time-honored "well, back in MY day we . . .  blah blah blah".  It's bullshit.  Things haven't changed nearly as much as grumpy fucks like you want to believe they have.  Full stop.

Ok, Jimmy, tell us how it was for us as kids, and how it's not any different today. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

On 5/18/2018 at 12:35 PM, ndawg said:

Right. I've just never seen the 2nd amendment hard liners really offer any kind of explanation for this.

Well, now you have:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/no-ban-on-gun-violence-studies-gun-control-public-health-argument/

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

Adults have been saying the same thing for as long as there have been adults.  It's overstated.

I distinctly remember all kinds of helicopter parents in my Little League games ~ 1973.  It got so bad the coach had to threaten them with refusing to take the field and forfeit games if they didn't cool it.  For fuck's sake, how long do you think the "I used to have to walk 5 miles to school and back, in the snow, uphill BOTH ways" idiom has been around?  It ain't new.

My parents used to bitch about every kid getting a ribbon.  My Mom had to deal with parental freakouts that she was teaching fucking Chaucer to 8th graders.  8th graders!  Oh the horror.

No, things haven't changed that much.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:41 PM, sugar said:

The NRA bans guns at their rallies. What utter hypocrisy. Anyway, they think somebody will eventually shoot them to pieces and that BANNING FIREARMS is the solution. I agree!

 

Wrong

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nra-convention-gun-ban/

[ndawg 1,242]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Well, now you have:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/no-ban-on-gun-violence-studies-gun-control-public-health-argument/

Thanks, I'll read it when I get a chance.

[sugar 100]

It's guns. Otherwise let's blame life itself. Birth causes this! As does wind, trees and moonlight.

[sugar 100]

 I blame peanuts and pillow forts! And Elvis and tonsillitis!

[GW Hayduke 1,951]

There are two well-defined goals to strive for to address the “problem” with guns in America. 

1) Reduce the rate of firearm-related violence across the country.

2) Reduce the frequency and magnitude of mass shootings.

We have a range of strategies at our disposal to help work towards these goals. Some strategies may have little effect. Some strategies may in-flame someone’s identity.

I get that this is a message board and that this is a political topic. 

My recommendation is to look to non-biased professionals to seek an understanding of the best approaches forward.

 

[sugar 100]

It's guns.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

10 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

No, you actually don't.  You're following the time-honored "well, back in MY day we . . .  blah blah blah".  It's bullshit.  Things haven't changed nearly as much as grumpy fucks like you want to believe they have.  Full stop.

No I'm not. Kids aren't allowed to even defend themselves in a fight today. If another kids hits you you're supposed to tell on that person, and you can't defend yourself or you get expelled form school as well. Several  things wrong there.  Snitching is a weak ass way to deal with issues, and not being able to denied yourself is a fucked up way for people to have to go thru life.  And kids need t learn how to deal with issues among themselves and not always have ab adult step in. Maybe you grew up that way, that would answer lots of things about your posting habits.

We raised 2 kids and went thru all the things they went thru growing up. So again please stop saying thINgs you have no idea about what you're talking about.  And yeah things are quite a bit different with kids today than even 20 years ago let alone for the boomer generation.

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

I have personally seen 2 kids fight at my son's middle school and neither was expelled, nor even suspended.

So, no.  It's definitely not a universal problem.  But you be you.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Adults have been saying the same thing for as long as there have been adults.  It's overstated.

I distinctly remember all kinds of helicopter parents in my Little League games ~ 1973.  It got so bad the coach had to threaten them with refusing to take the field and forfeit games if they didn't cool it.  For fuck's sake, how long do you think the "I used to have to walk 5 miles to school and back, in the snow, uphill BOTH ways" idiom has been around?  It ain't new.

My parents used to bitch about every kid getting a ribbon.  My Mom had to deal with parental freakouts that she was teaching fucking Chaucer to 8th graders.  8th graders!  Oh the horror.

No, things haven't changed that much.

Yeah they have changed that much and if you don't see to you're blind and ignorant of the reality around you.  

 

 

[sugar 100]

5 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

 

 

Yup, these are the only two talking points. Both of which go nowhere.

No other solutions are worth discussing.

 

 

Everything gets goddamn discussed. Gun control is never fucking enacted.

It's the mother fucking guns that are the fucking problem and it's beyond obvious. You are a moron or a disingenuous sociopath if you continually deny this.

It's the guns guns guns!! God fucking dammit IT IS THE GUUUUNNNNSSS!

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

A responsible gun owner should never allow his gun to end up in someone else's hands.  Period.  There's no "reasonable measures" test necessary.  A burgler breaks into your house while you are out of town?  Better make sure that you put your toys away before you left.

If "the majority of us are responsible gun owners" is reality, then there should be no qualifications needed. 

Bullshit.  My guns are locked in a safe that is bolted to my foundation.  But if I am away and someone has the right tools, they could break into the safe.  

I do think we should have a lot more education on how to properly secure firearms.  And have strict penalties for negligently allowing minors access.  But come the fuck on about penalizing someone who took reasonable steps to secure their firearms

[thrillhammer 683]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Well, now you have:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/no-ban-on-gun-violence-studies-gun-control-public-health-argument/

typical smoke and mirrors from that group.   "we should not allow gun control advocates to view guns as a publichealth concern".   no, we wouldn't want anyone to think that.

[Chuckie Finster 22,594]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Bullshit.  My guns are locked in a safe that is bolted to my foundation.  But if I am away and someone has the right tools, they could break into the safe.  

I do think we should have a lot more education on how to properly secure firearms.  And have strict penalties for negligently allowing minors access.  But come the fuck on about penalizing someone who took reasonable steps to secure their firearms

So what you are saying is that guns can still cause harm, even against the best efforts of responsible gun owners?

[jimmyjazz 45,537]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah they have changed that much and if you don't see to you're blind and ignorant of the reality around you.  

 

 

Right.  I've raised 4 kids (current ages 26 down to 14) and I'm blind and ignorant of the reality around me.  I'm now raising a 4 YO grandson.  So far everything is going great with all 5 kids, not perfect, but all excel in their own ways, yet some spineless message board crank who can't ever get out of his own way is going to deem me incapable of assessing the youth of today and how they interact with their peers, their teachers, and other adults.

You're so predictable.

[sugar 100]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Wrong

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nra-convention-gun-ban/

They banned guns at the Trump rally. No, they don't ban guns at their gun sales showcases. Duh.

Because all they're about is gun sales.

Edited May 21, 2018 by sugar

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I have personally seen 2 kids fight at my son's middle school and neither was expelled, nor even suspended.

So, no.  It's definitely not a universal problem.  But you be you.

It's pretty much standard policy on many schools across the country zero tolerance for fighting regardless of who starts it.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Right.  I've raised 4 kids (current ages 26 down to 14) and I'm blind and ignorant of the reality around me.  I'm now raising a 4 YO grandson.  So far everything is going great with all 5 kids, not perfect, but all excel in their own ways, yet some spineless message board crank who can't ever get out of his own way is going to deem me incapable of assessing the youth of today and how they interact with their peers, their teachers, and other adults.

You're so predictable.

And yet you feel the need to come here and tell me I don't know what's going 'cause  you're situation describes America the best.  Gotcha.  typical I'm right you're rwrong attitude with many here that have very high opinions of themselves.

[sugar 100]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/01/607054795/nra-bans-guns-during-convention-speech-by-president-vice-president

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

30 minutes ago, MoJames said:

I Agree with this. Gun safes are plenty affordable if you are able to afford the gun.

Here is something I used to secure my guns before I had a safe and it cost around $100 (and would secure 8 pistols or long guns).

 

It bolted into the stud beams and when looked you could not access the lag screws to unscrew them.  So unless the thief had the tools to bust down the sheetrock and cut the studs with a saw, your shit is secure.  And I did not use a master lock that could be easily cut with bolt cutters.  I used one of those heavy duty locks with a steel pin.  You'd need a torch to cut it.  Looked like this