Mass Shootings

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

7 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

So what you are saying is that guns can still cause harm, even against the best efforts of responsible gun owners?

yes.  Of course.  There is not a safe in the world that cannot be broken into.

[Guest]

I did not do it. I did not hit her. It's bullcrap. I did noooooooot.

 

Oh hi, badteammate, Sugar.

[sugar 100]

The NRA kills kids.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 minute ago, sugar said:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/01/607054795/nra-bans-guns-during-convention-speech-by-president-vice-president

The secret service ordered no guns, not the NRA.  They kind of do that as part of their protection detail.  Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 minute ago, sugar said:

The NRA kills kids.

Planned Parenthood kills millions of kids.

[deadshank 24,653]

Sugar 5 5  trolling not going away.  

[DixonHur 11,344]

15 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Adults have been saying the same thing for as long as there have been adults.  It's overstated.

I distinctly remember all kinds of helicopter parents in my Little League games ~ 1973.  It got so bad the coach had to threaten them with refusing to take the field and forfeit games if they didn't cool it.  For fuck's sake, how long do you think the "I used to have to walk 5 miles to school and back, in the snow, uphill BOTH ways" idiom has been around?  It ain't new.

My parents used to bitch about every kid getting a ribbon.  My Mom had to deal with parental freakouts that she was teaching fucking Chaucer to 8th graders.  8th graders!  Oh the horror.

No, things haven't changed that much.

Know what else has been around for a long time?  Guns.  Yet mass school shootings are a relatively recent phenomenon. 

Hell, I took a rifle to school in 6th grade (1981) because my friends and I were going hunting after school and I didn't want to have to go home.  Yes, I got in trouble, but only detention, because there was ZERO thought on the part of the administration that I might be a school shooter.  What do you think would happen to me if I did that today?

Yet, in your opinion, nothing has changed?  Something has definitely changed and it ain't just access to guns.

[sugar 100]

Why would law enforcement think guns are dangerous!!!???

The NRA didn't balk. 

[staboner 4,984]

jesus christ you people could fuck up a wet dream

[DixonHur 11,344]

Just now, staboner said:

jesus christ you people could fuck up a wet dream

Wet dreams kill millions of potential kids!

[sugar 100]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Planned Parenthood kills millions of kids.

The United States military and Jesus kills the most kids ever.

Planned parenthood has never shot up a school or bombed a country.

The Republican party murders people. You are a fucking murderer. You belong in hell.

[Chuckie Finster 22,702]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

yes.  Of course.  There is not a safe in the world that cannot be broken into.

"Let's enact gun control."  

"We don't need gun control!  We are responsible gun owners, and responsible gun owners don't pose a threat to society!"

"Okay, let's enact some laws ensuring that gun owners are responsible."

"Whoa whoa whoa, actually we can't really prevent anyone from getting our guns."

Edited May 21, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[sugar 100]

It is the guns.

Ban them, i bet you anything that 99% of the mass shootings stop.

Guns, oil & religion are the world's paramount killers. And this is all the Republican party stands for. You are a party of racist redneck murderers, and you let Russia overrun this country.

You people are goddamn traitors. 

And Trump is a fucking national shame.

[sugar 100]

I'm so tired of conservatives. They're psychopathic beasts.

[bernorange 8,362]

I like how I spent a good bit of time composing a long and thoughtful post for this discussion two pages ago and it received zero attention while the thread zips along with troll bait clap trap.  No one here really wants an honest discussion.  That's the lesson I'm taking from it.

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

9 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"Let's enact gun control."  

"We don't need gun control!  We are responsible gun owners, and responsible gun owners don't pose a threat to society!"

"Okay, let's enact some laws ensuring that gun owners are responsible."

"Whoa whoa whoa, actually we can't really prevent anyone from getting our guns."

The “responsible gun owner” narrative is weak to me. I’m sure there were responsible slave owners, responsible drinkers that drove cars, responsible drivers who didn’t want to wear seatbelts.

No one cares if someone is “responsible” or “law-abiding.” It’s a cop-out to try and hide behind their idenity. All citizens of a society sometimes have to make sacrifices, and sometimes those sacrifices are to wear a seatbelt or to register/obtain a license for your firearm.

Edited May 21, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[Pescado_Rojo 19,427]

3 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I know some of the "red flag" laws are trying to address this, but we are going to have to take a long hard look at access to firearms for those with a history of mental health issues - it would have prevented some of the past shootings if family members of those being treated were flagged/not allowed to buy firearms for the time being, or have them present, until that person is out from under their care/roof.

We already ban felons from owning firearms, and you would have to be a real dumbass to buy a firearm if you're living in a household with a felon, or to even have a firearm in said household - unless you take some very serious precautions and can prove at any time that the felon has absolutely no access to the firearm, not only could the felon be in a world of shit legally, but you as well.

Unfortunately, all this would do is prevent kids from getting treatment. If Redneck Billy thinks his kid has mental issues, but he knows that if he takes Redneck Billy Jr to a therapist and that therapist reports to the authorities that little Billy shouldn't be around guns, little Billy ain't getting treatment because Redneck Billy ain't giving his guns up to no librul socialist democrat queer lover. 

[RomaVicta 29,949]

6 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I like how I spent a good bit of time composing a long and thoughtful post for this discussion two pages ago and it received zero attention while the thread zips along with troll bait clap trap.  No one here really wants an honest discussion.  That's the lesson I'm taking from it.

You applied your lesson to a worthwhile thread about something other than the default return to the gun debate when a school gets shot up.

My compliments, bernorange.

There are good points to be made about guns on both sides, but I am not of the opinion that anything short of collecting 90% of the firearms in America would have much impact on these school shootings. I think I'd prefer such an America, but it isn't going to happen. Let's turn to some of the harder examination of why these killings occur.

[Neonmoon 38,130]

I will say children need to start taking classes on conflict resolution. Realizing who stressers are, why they feel stressed or upset, and steps that can be taken to address these feelings or stressors that is constructive. 

My niece who is in 2nd grade is learning algebra. Wtf. I mean, I'm impressed, but maybe we should be teaching kids how to deal with their emotions or conflicts that may arise between classmates first. 

I know a bunch of adutls, myself included, who could use better conflict resolution 

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

5 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You applied your lesson to a worthwhile thread about something other than the default return to the gun debate when a school gets shot up.

My compliments, bernorange.

There are good points to be made about guns on both sides, but I am not of the opinion that anything short of collecting 90% of the firearms in America would have much impact on these school shootings. I think I'd prefer such an America, but it isn't going to happen. Let's turn to some of the harder examination of why these killings occur.

Reducing the frequency and magnitude of mass shootings is only one goal. The other goal is to lower the overall rate of firearm-related violence. Some strategies would help towards both goals. 

Gun reform and control is a real possible solution for the US. To try and solve our gun violence problem and ignore the strategies surrounding gun control seems fruitless

Edited May 21, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[bernorange 8,362]

Just now, GW Hayduke said:

... The other goal is to lower the overall rate of firearm-related violence. ..

The rate of firearm violence has been declining for years as the rate of gun ownership has been growing.

Quote

Since 1993, the United States has seen a drop in the rate of homicides and other violence involving guns, according to two new studies released Tuesday. Using government data, analysts saw a steep drop for violence in the 1990s, they saw more modest drops in crime rates since 2000.

"Firearm-related homicides dropped from 18,253 homicides in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011," according to a report by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics, "and nonfatal firearm crimes dropped from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011.

There were seven gun homicides per 100,000 people in 1993, the Pew Research Center study says, which dropped to 3.6 gun deaths in 2010. The study relied in part on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49 percent lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation's population grew," according to the Pew study. "The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75 percent lower in 2011 than in 1993."

All of that is good news — but many Americans don't seem to be aware of it. In a survey, the Pew Research Center found that only 12 percent of Americans believe the gun crime rate is lower today than it was in 1993; 56 percent believe it's higher.

...

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

[sugar 100]

24 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I like how I spent a good bit of time composing a long and thoughtful post for this discussion two pages ago and it received zero attention while the thread zips along with troll bait clap trap.  No one here really wants an honest discussion.  That's the lesson I'm taking from it.

Yes, it's like you are sermonizing into a hail of bullets.

[sugar 100]

11 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I will say children need to start taking classes on conflict resolution. Realizing who stressers are, why they feel stressed or upset, and steps that can be taken to address these feelings or stressors that is constructive. 

My niece who is in 2nd grade is learning algebra. Wtf. I mean, I'm impressed, but maybe we should be teaching kids how to deal with their emotions or conflicts that may arise between classmates first. 

I know a bunch of adutls, myself included, who could use better conflict resolution 

Will the teachers of this class be armed? Because otherwise it's a target rich environment. I blame the pharmaceutical companies and black fathers

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

7 minutes ago, bernorange said:

The rate of firearm violence has been declining for years as the rate of gun ownership has been growing.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

You are correct that the “rate” of violence has been in decline. You are incorrect that the “rate” of gun ownership has been increasing. 

The rate of gun ownership has declined from 51% in the 1970s to 36% in 2016.

The US’s overall rate of homicides and our rates of firearm-related deaths are on par with third world countries. It is staggering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Edited May 21, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[sugar 100]

This national townhall debate stuff solves nothing.

Pass a freaking substantive gun control law! 

Why don't we TRY THAT, JUST ONCE!

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

10 minutes ago, bernorange said:

The rate of firearm violence has been declining for years as the rate of gun ownership has been growing.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

More compelling is a comparison across countries on the rates of firearm related deaths. You are 12 times less likely to die by firearm in Australia or Germany. 6 times less likely in Canada. Almost twice less likely in Mexico. Just as likely in Uruguay. Though we are safer from firearms here then in Columbia.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

[bernorange 8,362]

3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are correct that the “rate” of violence has been in decline. You are incorrect that the “rate” of gun ownership has been increasing. 

The rate of gun ownership has declined from 51% in the 1970s to 36% in 2016.

...

I misspoke.  The "rate" has essentially stayed the same, but the population has grown, so point is remains - gun violence has declined while gun ownership (overall, not rate) has increased.

Not sure where you are seeing that the rate has declined.  I searched and found this:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

 

[bernorange 8,362]

GW - you country comparisons are red herrings.  You are welcome to fuck that chicken all you like, but it's not a compelling argument for legislative action.

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

4 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I misspoke.  The "rate" has essentially stayed the same, but the population has grown, so point is remains - gun violence has declined while gun ownership (overall, not rate) has increased.

Not sure where you are seeing that the rate has declined.  I searched and found this:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

 

Statista doesn’t show its sources unfortunately.

My memory was wrong. The rate of ownership dropped from 50.4% in 1977 to 31.0% in 2014. Below source

http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS Reports/GSS_Trends in Gun Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

7 minutes ago, bernorange said:

GW - you country comparisons are red herrings.  You are welcome to fuck that chicken all you like, but it's not a compelling argument for legislative action.

How is it not compelling that Americans are less safe than other first world countries? Is it a red herring or are you ignoring facts? Is a red herring the name of a fact the pro-gun lobby doesn’t like?

[Fondren & Main 6,726]

Sugar, try not calling people names and being overly emotional.  It might help your dialogue...

[atomheartbevo 89,758]

40 minutes ago, sugar said:

This national townhall debate stuff solves nothing.

Pass a freaking substantive gun control law! 

Why don't we TRY THAT, JUST ONCE!

Oh substantive gun control is going to happen.  The GOP and NRA are content to do very little or just use the issue to fund raise, so Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are going to get their chance at writing such legislation. It’s just a matter of when (probably after the election and swearing that follows a live-streamed massacre). 

And the GOP and NRA are doing a good job of creating a young generation of single-issue voters. It’ll hurt the GOP, but will make the NRA richer. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[jimmyjazz 46,001]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

KYet, in your opinion, nothing has changed?  Something has definitely changed and it ain't just access to guns.

I don't think NOTHING has changed.  (If I said so, please point it out, because that wasn't well stated on my part.)

I think the average kid is pretty similar to what the average kid was 40 years ago.  The fringe may have changed.  This broad brush of "millenials", etc. is what I find hard to stomach.  I continue to be impressed with the general collection of kids my own go to school with.

I can definitely see how 24/7 access could lead to bullying to the point where loners, etc. snap.  I just don't think the net effect is negative when we talk about "kids these days".

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

35 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I misspoke.  The "rate" has essentially stayed the same, but the population has grown, so point is remains - gun violence has declined while gun ownership (overall, not rate) has increased.

Not sure where you are seeing that the rate has declined.  I searched and found this:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

 

By your combined statements that gun violence is down while gun ownership is up, I assume you think there is some relationship between them.  Can you demonstrate some evidence of that?       Do you think we should mandate more gun ownership in order to lower gun violence to 0?

[bernorange 8,362]

22 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

How is it not compelling that Americans are less safe than other first world countries? Is it a red herring or are you ignoring facts? Is a red herring the name of a fact the pro-gun lobby doesn’t like?

1. I am not "the pro-gun lobby".  That insinuation is not productive.

2. You are stating your conclusions as fact.  The data is quite circumspect though.  No one collects or tracks that data the same way.  You can't compare apples, oranges, bananas, avacados, carrots, turnips, etc. and draw any substantive conclusions.

[atomheartbevo 89,758]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Unfortunately, all this would do is prevent kids from getting treatment. If Redneck Billy thinks his kid has mental issues, but he knows that if he takes Redneck Billy Jr to a therapist and that therapist reports to the authorities that little Billy shouldn't be around guns, little Billy ain't getting treatment because Redneck Billy ain't giving his guns up to no librul socialist democrat queer lover. 

And Billy Jr’s teachers would have been taking notes for years about Billy Jr needing to see the family doctor for a mental evaluation and that various issues had been manifesting themselves, and there will most likely be social media giving off clues as well. 

And then the families of Billy Jr’s victims are going to get the chance to empty what little remains of Billy Sr’s bank account. 

[atomheartbevo 89,758]

So have any of the Texas, Maryland, or Canadian politicians chimed in about a lack of god and corporal punishment in school?

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

13 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Oh substantive gun control is going to happen.  The GOP and NRA are content to do very little or just use the issue to fund raise, so Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are going to get their chance at writing such legislation. It’s just a matter of when (probably after the election and swearing that follows a live-streamed massacre). 

And the GOP and NRA are doing a good job of creating a young generation of single-issue voters. It’ll hurt the GOP, but will make the NRA richer. 

Good luck Chuck and Nancy.  

[bernorange 8,362]

6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

By your combined statements that gun violence is down while gun ownership is up, I assume you think there is some relationship between them.  Can you demonstrate some evidence of that?       Do you think we should mandate more gun ownership in order to lower gun violence to 0?

The rate of gun violence is down.  The  data is clear on that.  The proliferation of gun ownership over the same period merely provides context.  There is no correlation between a decrease in gun violence with a decrease in gun ownership over the same period.  In fact, the opposite is true.  GW was making a huge issue about gun control to solve a "problem" that has been correcting for years.  It's frustrating to have a constructive conversation about real world problems, root causes and workable solutions when advocates are merely championing their solution regardless of reality.

Edited May 21, 2018 by bernorange

[DixonHur 11,344]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I don't think NOTHING has changed.  (If I said so, please point it out, because that wasn't well stated on my part.)

I think the average kid is pretty similar to what the average kid was 40 years ago.  The fringe may have changed.  This broad brush of "millenials", etc. is what I find hard to stomach.  I continue to be impressed with the general collection of kids my own go to school with.

I can definitely see how 24/7 access could lead to bullying to the point where loners, etc. snap.  I just don't think the net effect is negative when we talk about "kids these days".

Fair enough.  Just for the record, I don't blame Gen X, millennials, or Gen Z...I put the blame on Boomers. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

I don’t worry about gun violence that much. The odds are pretty low in a country of 330 million of getting shot and killed if you aren’t in the drug game or in a gang.  I’m for mitigating risk of gun violence.  And there are things we can do.  But you can’t compare the US to Europe  

We have the Second Amendment.  We have a ton of guns.   We have a very different set of demographics.  We have a war on drugs that not only creates drug gun violence, but it takes police and prison resources away from violent crimes and perps that need to be in prison  

 

 

[A-Tex Devil 2,451]

This was probably already posted at some point, but the "slow motion riot" theory of these mass shootings is a fascinating, and pretty scary, way to look at all of this. I.e. the same lowered inhibition threshold that would cause a generally law abiding person to join a mob/riot is at play here as these shootings persist and snowball.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

[Hate 20,128]

Oh substantive gun control is going to happen.  The GOP and NRA are content to do very little or just use the issue to fund raise, so Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are going to get their chance at writing such legislation. It’s just a matter of when (probably after the election and swearing that follows a live-streamed massacre). 
And the GOP and NRA are doing a good job of creating a young generation of single-issue voters. It’ll hurt the GOP, but will make the NRA richer. 

Fantastic. Another law we will have to pass to see what is in it!

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

22 minutes ago, bernorange said:

The rate of gun violence is down.  The  data is clear on that.  The proliferation of gun ownership over the same period merely provides context.  There is no correlation between a decrease in gun violence with a decrease in gun ownership over the same period.  In fact, the opposite is true.  GW was making a huge issue about gun control to solve a "problem" that has been correcting for years.  It's frustrating to have a constructive conversation about real world problems, root causes and workable solutions when advocates are merely championing their solution regardless of reality.

The rate of gun violence is down. That doesn’t mean we still don’t have a gun violence issue. 

There was no proliferation of gun ownership. The rate of gun ownership has been going down.

i understand from your previous comment that you don’t like to compare data between countries because you feel different methods are involved. The homicide rates by country are provided by a UN report. The firearm death rates are mostly provided by the University of Sydney. What do you not alike about that report or their methods?

Waving your hand and say “I don’t like it” doesn’t seem honest.  

You mention frustration that I called them facts. What is not factual in any of my statements?

You appear to mention I am advocating something regardless of reality. What “reality” am I missing? What about someone’s version of “reality” that ignores huge sets of data that compare countries because of a wave of the hand?

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[sugar 100]

Guns bad.

[David Dennison 18,940]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Planned Parenthood kills millions of kids.

Legally.

 

[sugar 100]

Lies bad.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Legally.

 

our glorious leader, Dan Patrick, tells us that abortion was one of the factors that led to the violence in Santa Fe.  

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

32 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t worry about gun violence that much. The odds are pretty low in a country of 330 million of getting shot and killed if you aren’t in the drug game or in a gang.  I’m for mitigating risk of gun violence.  And there are things we can do.  But you can’t compare the US to Europe  

We have the Second Amendment.  We have a ton of guns.   We have a very different set of demographics.  We have a war on drugs that not only creates drug gun violence, but it takes police and prison resources away from violent crimes and perps that need to be in prison  

 

 

Countries are different. That is something that can be agreed upon. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t compare countries.

You mention some of the reasons why the US has the highest rate of firearm-violence in the first world. Just because there are a range of reasons for this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a “problem” that requires strategies to minimize/mitigate.

[hayden_horn 11,364]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Oh substantive gun control is going to happen.  The GOP and NRA are content to do very little or just use the issue to fund raise, so Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are going to get their chance at writing such legislation. It’s just a matter of when (probably after the election and swearing that follows a live-streamed massacre). 

And the GOP and NRA are doing a good job of creating a young generation of single-issue voters. It’ll hurt the GOP, but will make the NRA richer. 

i'm cross posting from the daily texan thread:

this is the state of affairs. my 11 year old fifth grader's class was tasked with championing a cause at school. my son's group chose gun violence. they were advocating for responsible gun ownership, the banning of high capacity magazines, gun registration, background checks, among other things.

my son had a drawing of a handgun under which it says "you can own this!" and then a drawing of an AR under which it said "but you don't need THIS!"

the kids presented in a free form sort of conference style way, in which us parents could go from table to table and listen to their presentations. it was all remarkably adult. we did this today. 

part of the presentation, one of the kids (not my son), stated "we chose this topic because we don't want to be afraid of our school getting shot up." i got a bit of a lump in my throat. this is on the minds of elementary school kids, yall. they did up an amazing video presenting their solutions.

and the thing is, my son loves guns and the idea of guns, to the point where i've been concerned in the past that i'm being too permissive with the airsoft guns, etc.

but at the end of the presentation, there was an ominous line for gun owners. "because this keeps happening we need sensible solutions now. because otherwise, then we'll have to think about banning all guns."

out of the mouths of fifth graders, dude. they get it.

and they are a mere 7 years away from voting. that should scare the shit out of gun proponents and NRA supporters. 

@Johnny Sack is doing it right, by soliciting ideas and being part of the discussion. use your current seat at the table to try and effect change, or else you won't have a seat at the table at all.

for me, i find it curious that my right to drive my car is far more onerous an an annual basis than my right to own a handgun and a shotgun. just because a right is enshrined in the constitution does not mean it is required to be free of regulation.