Mass Shootings

[atomheartbevo 90642]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

 

Fantastic. Another law we will have to pass to see what is in it!

 

We can see a general picture what’s coming though, and it’ll dwarf the AWB of the ‘90s (which somehow survived numerous challenges). 

Trump is hellbent on trying to give Congress over to the Dems. Their incompetence is dwarfed by his determination to give them the keys. 

And for all of the Dems’ incompetence, the moment we have a live-streamed massacre at a high school, or another massacre at an elementary school, the Dems are going to make the GOP completely own it. They will run clip after clip of the GOP doing nothing or bitching about doors or abortion.  They will clean up in the next election cycle after such an event  

The thought of it is probably the only thing that still gets Nancy wet. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Legally.

 

As did the S.S.

[David Dennison 19530]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

We can see a general picture what’s coming though, and it’ll dwarf the AWB of the ‘90s (which somehow survived numerous challenges). 

Trump is hellbent on trying to give Congress over to the Dems. Their incompetence is dwarfed by his determination to give them the keys. 

And for all of the Dems’ incompetence, the moment we have a live-streamed massacre at a high school, or another massacre at an elementary school, the Dems are going to make the GOP completely own it. They will run clip after clip of the GOP doing nothing or bitching about doors or abortion.  They will clean up in the next election cycle after such an event  

The thought of it is probably the only thing that still gets Nancy wet. 

If Republicans could ever learn how to compromise with Democrats, they'd be hugely popular in general elections.

Too bad about those primaries.

[David Dennison 19530]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

As did the S.S.

See? America is no better than Nazi Germany.

Libtards were right all along.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Libs have a lot more kills to their names than the SS ever dreamed of.

[David Dennison 19530]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Libs have a lot more kills to their names than the SS ever dreamed of.

Which is why you're so scared. I get it.

[thrillhammer 686]

41 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

The thought of it is probably the only thing that still gets Nancy wet. 

How do you know I don't get Nancy wet?  They're real and they're fantastic.

[Brisketexan 106888]

39 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Libs have a lot more kills to their names than the SS ever dreamed of.

And as long as the abortion debate leads to this kind of statement, we will never, ever, EVER get anything accomplished.

Because anyone who doesn't absolutely oppose abortion is a mass-murderer.  Period.  Conversation over, and it can never advance.

This is a great example to understand why we're where we are.  We could be discussing the need for better food safety regulations, and the rebuttal would be "what do you libs care? You've murdered millions of babies!"  And....the conversation is over.  This is where we are.  Abortion has 100% broken ALL politics in this country, about EVERY SINGLE ISSUE.  We're here talking about mass shootings and, well, libs have no say, because abortion.  Stop wondering why nothing ever gets fucking done, or why problems don't get solved.  This is why.

[Brian Fantana 6863]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/santa-fe-school-had-a-shooting-plan-armed-officers-and-practice-and-still-10-people-died/2018/05/19/58b1b55e-5b8d-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.7782fa0f041a&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

[jimmyjazz 47152]

Abortion is the single issue that caused many otherwise anti-Trump voters to stay R at the polls in 2016.  I know so many people who say "yeah, I think he's a racist, etc. but I can't go with a pro-choice candidate".

If the Dems would figure out how to even just mitigate that one issue, they'd win in a landslide next time around.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And as long as the abortion debate leads to this kind of statement, we will never, ever, EVER get anything accomplished.

Because anyone who doesn't absolutely oppose abortion is a mass-murderer.  Period.  Conversation over, and it can never advance.

This is a great example to understand why we're where we are.  We could be discussing the need for better food safety regulations, and the rebuttal would be "what do you libs care? You've murdered millions of babies!"  And....the conversation is over.  This is where we are.  Abortion has 100% broken ALL politics in this country, about EVERY SINGLE ISSUE.  We're here talking about mass shootings and, well, libs have no say, because abortion.  Stop wondering why nothing ever gets fucking done, or why problems don't get solved.  This is why.

Well, stop killing babies and we can then move on to other issues.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

i'm cross posting from the daily texan thread:

this is the state of affairs. my 11 year old fifth grader's class was tasked with championing a cause at school. my son's group chose gun violence. they were advocating for responsible gun ownership, the banning of high capacity magazines, gun registration, background checks, among other things.

my son had a drawing of a handgun under which it says "you can own this!" and then a drawing of an AR under which it said "but you don't need THIS!"

the kids presented in a free form sort of conference style way, in which us parents could go from table to table and listen to their presentations. it was all remarkably adult. we did this today. 

part of the presentation, one of the kids (not my son), stated "we chose this topic because we don't want to be afraid of our school getting shot up." i got a bit of a lump in my throat. this is on the minds of elementary school kids, yall. they did up an amazing video presenting their solutions.

and the thing is, my son loves guns and the idea of guns, to the point where i've been concerned in the past that i'm being too permissive with the airsoft guns, etc.

but at the end of the presentation, there was an ominous line for gun owners. "because this keeps happening we need sensible solutions now. because otherwise, then we'll have to think about banning all guns."

out of the mouths of fifth graders, dude. they get it.

and they are a mere 7 years away from voting. that should scare the shit out of gun proponents and NRA supporters. 

@Johnny Sack is doing it right, by soliciting ideas and being part of the discussion. use your current seat at the table to try and effect change, or else you won't have a seat at the table at all.

for me, i find it curious that my right to drive my car is far more onerous an an annual basis than my right to own a handgun and a shotgun. just because a right is enshrined in the constitution does not mean it is required to be free of regulation.

In 7th grade honors class we had a group project to create our own constitution/10 laws (based off the Animal farm book that had the 10 rules that squealer kept changing in the middle of the night.)

Anyways, one was Homosexuality was not allowed. Yes half the group ended up going to A&M, but this was early aughts, not 1980s. 

And these kids now are trying to ban guns. I’m not sure if my anecdote is highlighting that kids these days are better at theoretical politicking in classroom environments or if they are like our dumbassery from being 7th grade know-nothings, your kids are being naive pantywaists. Probably the former, I think.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Guest

[Brisketexan 106888]

Well, stop killing babies and we can then move on to other issues.

I couldn’t illustrate the point any better.

[Brian Fantana 6863]

I'd actually like to abort more babies. Personally, if possible. 

[David Dennison 19530]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Well, stop killing babies and we can then move on to other issues.

This is never going to happen so you might as well compromise.

[Guest]

Just now, David Dennison said:

This is never going to happen so you might as well compromise.

We don’t negotiate with terrorists

[GW Hayduke 1957]

52 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And as long as the abortion debate leads to this kind of statement, we will never, ever, EVER get anything accomplished.

Because anyone who doesn't absolutely oppose abortion is a mass-murderer.  Period.  Conversation over, and it can never advance.

This is a great example to understand why we're where we are.  We could be discussing the need for better food safety regulations, and the rebuttal would be "what do you libs care? You've murdered millions of babies!"  And....the conversation is over.  This is where we are.  Abortion has 100% broken ALL politics in this country, about EVERY SINGLE ISSUE.  We're here talking about mass shootings and, well, libs have no say, because abortion.  Stop wondering why nothing ever gets fucking done, or why problems don't get solved.  This is why.

I honestly take it as an example of a stupid person saying something stupid. Ignore, ridicule, downvote are all options.

There are places where adult conversations can be had.  r/neutralpolitics on reddit have mods that enforce some strict rules and will delete/ban anything that doesn't have a source or that addresses the the commenter rather than position. 

[Brisketexan 106888]

I honestly take it as an example of a stupid person saying something stupid. Ignore, ridicule, downvote are all options.
There are places where adult conversations can be had.  r/neutralpolitics on reddit have mods that enforce some strict rules and will delete/ban anything that doesn't have a source or that addresses the the commenter rather than position. 

But you also need to understand that’s how a huge percentage of the population thinks and votes.

[GW Hayduke 1957]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

But you also need to understand that’s how a huge percentage of the population thinks and votes.

Sure. They are a motivated single-issue voting block and the US would be in a better place without them but I don't they are insurmountable.  

However, when it comes to firearm violence I think there are a lot of pro-lifers that have reasonable stances and welcome strategies to minimize harm.  I don't think they are against "gun control" if they can get past their political identity; however, they are voting republican either way.  

It isn't normal to disregard firearm violence because of abortions - thats why I mentioned it was stupid.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Yes. A huge percentage of us think using surgical instruments to dismember unborn babies with a heartbeat is sick, evil, immoral and should be illegal.  And I absolutely won’t vote for any pro abortion candidate in any election no matter what  

And a huge percentage disagree and support abortions. There isn’t room for compromise on it. 

I wonder how we stack up morally on those beliefs?

I believe all life is sacred and worthy of protection.  Especially the most vulnerable. And I’ll meet my maker someday and be proud of that belief. 

[David Dennison 19530]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Yes. A huge percentage of us think using surgical instruments to dismember unborn babies with a heartbeat is sick, evil, immoral and should be illegal.  And I absolutely won’t vote for any pro abortion candidate in any election no matter what  

And a huge percentage disagree and support abortions. There isn’t room for compromise on it. 

I wonder how we stack up morally on those beliefs?

I believe all life is sacred and worthy of protection.  Especially the most vulnerable. And I’ll meet my maker someday and be proud of that belief. 

What about pregnancies resulting from rape or incest?

[GW Hayduke 1957]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes. A huge percentage of us think using surgical instruments to dismember unborn babies with a heartbeat is sick, evil, immoral and should be illegal.  And I absolutely won’t vote for any pro abortion candidate in any election no matter what  

And a huge percentage disagree and support abortions. There isn’t room for compromise on it. 

I wonder how we stack up morally on those beliefs?

I believe all life is sacred and worthy of protection.  Especially the most vulnerable. And I’ll meet my maker someday and be proud of that belief. 

What about the life that is lost due to republican positions on universal healthcare, the death penalty, and gun control?

[T-dog 202]

12 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

 

Like what?

 

A school that feels like prison for some is not a place where kids can blossom and grow

[Royalfan5 2384]

32 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes. A huge percentage of us think using surgical instruments to dismember unborn babies with a heartbeat is sick, evil, immoral and should be illegal.  And I absolutely won’t vote for any pro abortion candidate in any election no matter what  

And a huge percentage disagree and support abortions. There isn’t room for compromise on it. 

I wonder how we stack up morally on those beliefs?

I believe all life is sacred and worthy of protection.  Especially the most vulnerable. And I’ll meet my maker someday and be proud of that belief. 

Boy that sounds like something that should have been handle before tax cuts and such. 

[T-dog 202]

9 hours ago, MoJames said:

I think it is odd that those in this thread pointing to problems outside of guns, generally don't want any changes to gun laws.

But those who work in the medical field and agree that the behavioral health system is broke in this country, have no issues with changes in the behavioral health system.

I feel like you in part are talking to me, but in my inaugural post in this thread is said that gun control has to be one of the things that needs to be addressed. I'm simply advocating that this won't be enough. 

9 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 

I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

It is done in some other countries, for example I know of a case in Germany where the father of a school shooter had to pay close to $1m in damages because he failed to lock up his weapons properly. I think something should be done here, because if you want to possess a weapon of deadly force, you should be able to demonstrate some basic responsibilities

[T-dog 202]

8 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Many posters keep talking about the underlying problem. Taking away guns won't solve it. 

Will you please identify the underlying problem? In your opinon 

 

7 hours ago, Mole said:

Something has changed culturally with the way Millennials were raised. Our culture is doing something to alienate kids in a different way and/or not doing something to build up needed resilience. I think it's lots of little problems adding up: 24/7 bullying, the angst of seeing the perfect social media life of others, no physical outlet for the frustration, the way we raise boys, the near requirement of dual income homes, helicopter parenting, glorification of violence, insane gun culture, the noisiness of modern life, celebrity culture, high-pressure testing throughout schooling, etc.

Pretty much this, plus we have a couple of catalysts for those trends, most importantly social media. Plus past attacks that act as a model

[T-dog 202]

10 hours ago, bernorange said:

I'll repeat from previous discussions measures that I think would have a meaningful impact:

• Re-evaluate age of adulthood.  Teenagers are not a homogenous group.  Some mature faster than others.  We have tidal cultural forces that promote certain ideas as rights of passage in this country and most of them speak to very immature decision making IMO.  There is a significant enough percentage of teenagers that have not reached the maturity threshold of adulthood by 18 that an examination of the age of adulthood is warranted.  Specifically, I am talking about the age where adults can legally enter contracts, purchase guns, purchase regulated drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.), etc.  I favor moving the age of adulthood to 19 or 20 - when the average person will have graduated from high school.  Or perhaps, make it conditional - 21 or 18 + high school graduate / GED.
• Strengthen penalties for adults who provide access to minors for restricted/regulated items when they commit a crime.  I mean both guns and drugs.  Adults (whether parents or not) who provide access to guns or drugs (alcohol, etc.) to minors should be charged as accessories for any crimes said minors commit with (or while under the influence of) the restricted items. 
• Improve "gun violence restraining orders"/"red flag" laws.  I have read about several variations of this idea.  I support the ones with due process where the public can petition a judge to issue an order for immediate action and there is a course for due process to take place and sort out the details.  I am not in favor of the more Draconian versions that provide for LEOs to confiscate firearms on the spot and on their whim.  That's anathema.

Aside from the above, I'm pondering whether it might not be a worthwhile investment of student academic focus to require some course(s) in peer development.  Sort of a mish mash of sociology and civics that talks about the issues of individual behavior/choices, peer groups, bullying, social media, etc.  I haven't fully developed this idea.  I think it might be constructive to have kids spend some time thinking about how they engage (or avoid engaging) with their peers.

Interesting measures, but I sharply disagree with #1 in terms of raising the general age of adulthood because we have to put this into a larger perspective. I would be fine though with raising the age to purchase guns, heck you should be able to buy a beer before you can buy a gun IMO (although I'd argue that the alcohol limit is too high leading to several problems, but that is a discussion for another thread).

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

What about the life that is lost due to republican positions on universal healthcare, the death penalty, and gun control?

Don’t forget all the lives lost due to the tax cuts.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

42 minutes ago, Royalfan5 said:

Boy that sounds like something that should have been handle before tax cuts and such. 

You sound like an expert on separation of powers.  

[GW Hayduke 1957]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Don’t forget all the lives lost due to the tax cuts.  

Oh shit. You wear your hypocrisy like a badge of honor. Good to know. If you ever feel like hypocrisy isn't your thing but you still want to hold onto your pro-life beliefs, I recommend you check out the Catholic Church. 

[Royalfan5 2384]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You sound like an expert on separation of powers.  

I thought only one thing mattered. Shouldn’t the babies came before dollars? 

[Buzzrock 15136]

Gun rights advocates claim that the vast majority of guns are in the hands of responsible owners, so I think it's time that we pass some laws to ensure that is the case.
If a gun crime is committed by someone other than the legal owner of that firearm, then both the criminal and the legal gun owner receive the same punishment.  So if your kid takes your gun and blows apart his school, you are now treated like the murderer.
I bet that would make most gun owners double check their gun safes every night.  And I don't know why anyone would oppose this, because if most gun owners are as responsible as we are being led to believe, then most gun owners have absolutely nothing to worry about.

It’s interesting. How would you prove that someone owned a specific gun?

I assume you would need some sort of mandated period within which you’d have to report a gun theft too.

Let’s build some fences while we discuss it.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

Oh shit. You wear your hypocrisy like a badge of honor. Good to know. If you ever feel like hypocrisy isn't your thing but you still want to hold onto your pro-life beliefs, I recommend you check out the Catholic Church. 

Obamacare saved all sorts of lives. 

[Buzzrock 15136]

Let’s say a kid instead steals his parents vehicle to murder dozens of people, should the parents be held responsible? 
I don’t disagree with your suggestion, I’m just trying to look at from other angles.

No

[Buzzrock 15136]

There are too many guns in America.

So based on that assertion you must have some idea of what the right amount of guns is. Care to share? How did you arrive at that number?

I think Hugo is closer to the target when he talks about our culture of workaholic, keeping up wit the Joneses, life-on-social-media.

[David Dennison 19530]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Obamacare saved all sorts of lives. 

The funny thing about this is that it's true.

[Buzzrock 15136]

A lot of it might be that they realize they've been lied to about America.

Man you are fucking exhausting.

[David Dennison 19530]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

So based on that assertion you must have some idea of what the right amount of guns is. Care to share? How did you arrive at that number?

I think Hugo is closer to the target when he talks about our culture of workaholic, keeping up wit the Joneses, life-on-social-media.

 

Cut guns per capita by half.

Baby steps.

[Buzzrock 15136]

A big part of what's changed is kids aren't allowed to settle theIr own issues, and sometimes that requires a bit of physical contact.  Mothers helicopter their kids to death, everyone gets a trophy.  We've created a culture of emotionally weak kids who can't deal with adversity because it's dealt with for them.  

[Buzzrock 15136]

 

It’s not all about the hours. How many of those workers take their work home with them (in the literal and figurative sense)?

[Buzzrock 15136]

No, you actually don't.  You're following the time-honored "well, back in MY day we . . .  blah blah blah".  It's bullshit.  Things haven't changed nearly as much as grumpy fucks like you want to believe they have.  Full stop.

I gotta disagree with your police work here Lou.

When I was a kid I had a ton more independence. I disappeared in the morning and could be miles away with no communication options at any given time. I just knew to be back by dark or face the belt.

Nowadays parents hyperventilate if their kids leave the cul-de-sac or don’t text back in 30 seconds.

That independence I had fostered a lot of time with other boys and inevitable conflicts far from any watchful eye. Fights happened. Boys matured. Most dads I know taught “Don’t start it, but don’t be afraid to finish it.” Not a perfect philosophy, but it would be frowned upon in a lot of circles these days.

[El Diablo 4232]

4 hours ago, thrillhammer said:

How do you know I don't get Nancy wet?  They're real and they're fantastic.

[Buzzrock 15136]

Know what else has been around for a long time?  Guns.  Yet mass school shootings are a relatively recent phenomenon. 
Hell, I took a rifle to school in 6th grade (1981) because my friends and I were going hunting after school and I didn't want to have to go home.  Yes, I got in trouble, but only detention, because there was ZERO thought on the part of the administration that I might be a school shooter.  What do you think would happen to me if I did that today?
Yet, in your opinion, nothing has changed?  Something has definitely changed and it ain't just access to guns.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/31/when-toting-guns-in-high-school-was-cool/

Nothing has changed.

[Buzzrock 15136]

You applied your lesson to a worthwhile thread about something other than the default return to the gun debate when a school gets shot up.
My compliments, bernorange.
There are good points to be made about guns on both sides, but I am not of the opinion that anything short of collecting 90% of the firearms in America would have much impact on these school shootings. I think I'd prefer such an America, but it isn't going to happen. Let's turn to some of the harder examination of why these killings occur.

Was it W who said wtte “I have to deal with the world as it is, not the world as I’d like it to be.”

In this world we have people who wake up one day and decide that murder is the best option that day. Quite often they decide that the place where they are going to commit murders is a school, a place where all American children are required by law to go every weekday between August and June, and which is usually gun free.

That is the world we live in. Putting up defenses around our children is a very logical near-term response to that threat. Trying to communicate with the barbarian at the gate about his feelings or how he got his weapon is not.

Making the world the way you want it to be (less guns, better treatment for mental illness, etc) is noble but will require years, probably generations.

Fences and cameras can go up in weeks.

[Buzzrock 15136]

So have any of the Texas, Maryland, or Canadian politicians chimed in about a lack of god and corporal punishment in school?

Well, the OP did say that everything is on the table.

[fattyflattie 4640]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But you also need to understand that’s how a huge percentage of the population thinks and votes.

This is true. The other half is made up of another really special type of person. The type of person who can hear a heartbeat of a child growing inside them, but decide to 86 it as it doesn’t jive with their retirement plans. Or maybe they were just off fucking randoms at the bar, but decided the condom wasn’t worth the .50.  Or I just don’t feel like taking care of my responsibilities YOLO!!!  No matter the excuse, it’s damn well justified, in their minds.

I can understand the argument from people who’ve never carried/had children.  I can understand the woman who was raped, or incest, or even the child that has no chance at any type of life. But as a parent who watched all my baby girls grow in the womb, you will not be able to convince me you are doing something other than killing babies. You can feel better by believing it’s not, but I’m sure you know.  Our votes will just have to cancel each other’s out  

People don’t have to agree on everything.  It’s akin to asking an atheist to find Jesus/Allah/Buddha, so the country can help itself along.  

 

Back to guns. I think if there was some kind of voluntary buy back, it would probably be popular right after these tragedies. Would be easy to set up and fund as well. Could be a start to removing firearms that people have that really don’t care to own. At least they wouldn’t get stolen or borrowed by the next killer. 

[Buzzrock 15136]

A school that feels like prison for some is not a place where kids can blossom and grow

Right now they feel like it’s a place where they could get shot any day. Are they blossoming and growing?

[Buzzrock 15136]

Cut guns per capita by half.
Baby steps.

Ok I’m in if you agree to secure schools. You can have two of my three guns right now.

I’ll take the securing schools project, you take the confiscating half the guns project. Who do you think will be more successful and have more supporters on both sides of the gun debate?

[ndawg 1242]

14 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

This is true. The other half is made up of another really special type of person. The type of person who can hear a heartbeat of a child growing inside them, but decide to 86 it as it doesn’t jive with their retirement plans. Or maybe they were just off fucking randoms at the bar, but decided the condom wasn’t worth the .50.  Or I just don’t feel like taking care of my responsibilities YOLO!!!  No matter the excuse, it’s damn well justified, in their minds.

Wat. You stared off trying to present yourself as understanding the leftist point of view, but then indulged an incredibly slanted characterization of a single issue which simply revealed that you _don't_ actually understand that point of view.

[David Dennison 19530]

4 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Ok I’m in if you agree to secure schools. You can have two of my three guns right now.

I’ll take the securing schools project, you take the confiscating half the guns project. Who do you think will be more successful and have more supporters on both sides of the gun debate?

 

Fine with me. Who pays?