The state of democracy in America.

[Satchel 6982]

People are noticing:

US added to annual list of ‘backsliding’ democracies

The report by International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance says ‘visible deterioration’ began in 2019.

 

“A historic turning point came in 2020-21 when former president Donald Trump questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election results in the United States,” the report said, referring to a campaign by the former president and his allies to overturn the 2020 US election results, which culminated in Trump’s supporters storming the seat of the US legislature on January 6.

The report also cited growing polarisation in the US, as well as state voting laws “disproportionately affecting minorities in a negative way”.

IDEA Secretary-General Kevin Casas-Zamora called the “visible deterioration of democracy” in the US “one of the most concerning developments” in the 2021 report, according to the AFP news agency

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/22/in-first-us-added-to-annual-list-of-backsliding-democracies

[F250 29171]

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1274]

Go away. Batin'.

[heso 2848]

That label of “backsliding democracy” has been obvious for a while to anyone that would accept it as truth. Unfortunately it will be flatly rejected as nonsense by the people that need to hear it. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

Given its association with the Southern church maybe just maybe the term "backslidin'" will catch the attention of a couple of people. 

[Pato del Muerto 53330]

[TexPx 2330]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[conVINCEd 21477]

It sucks.

[ROFL BOX 6654]

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[StruggleBus 3922]

[Chuckie Finster 22978]

Gonna be fucking nuts when certain state legislatures override the popular vote in 2024.

[Brisketexan 106615]

50 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Gonna be fucking nuts when certain state legislatures override the popular vote in 2024.

Bingo.

We used to make fun of shithole countries where the ruling party simply overrode popular votes and declared their candidate the winner anyway.

And now, we're one of those shithole countries.  Pretty, pretty awesome.

[wildcat09 29556]

49 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Gonna be fucking nuts when certain state legislatures override the popular vote in 2024.

It will 100% happen. And if it's not enough, a Republican-controlled House absolutely will refuse to certify a Democratic presidential victory. 

If Dems don't hold the House in 2022, American democracy is doomed for a generation at least. And given their lack of urgency on voting rights, it's pretty clear Dem leadership doesn't really care and it's pretty safe to go ahead and assume they're going to lose the House. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

50 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.

We used to make fun of shithole countries where the ruling party simply overrode popular votes and declared their candidate the winner anyway.

And now, we're one of those shithole countries.  Pretty, pretty awesome.

Why do you think Tucker Carlson was singing the praises of Hungary's Orban? That's pretty much what he did. He even brags about it, calling it an "illiberal democracy."

[Macanudo 13253]

56 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It will 100% happen. And if it's not enough, a Republican-controlled House absolutely will refuse to certify a Democratic presidential victory. 

If Dems don't hold the House in 2022, American democracy is doomed for a generation at least. And given their lack of urgency on voting rights, it's pretty clear Dem leadership doesn't really care and it's pretty safe to go ahead and assume they're going to lose the House. 

A generation?   Only a generation?     

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

One of the experts guesting on a podcast I was listening to (w/respect to fascism and autocracy) was saying that successful coups (whether military or not) are like the cat out of the bag, the cow out of the barn. You're not easily able to get them back in once they become a part of the history. A lot was dependent upon the duration and/or if there were several successions of it. Once the military got involved, that was something that tended not to reverse itself.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2649]

It’s funny. I have recently been reading my great grandfather’s journal and he was lamenting the same thing during the FDR years.  
 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

[wildcat09 29556]

8 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

A generation?   Only a generation?     

I suppose I'm an optimist.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 minute ago, ONE YARD said:

It’s funny. I have recently been reading my great grandfather’s journal and he was lamenting the same thing during the FDR years. 

I dunno. Now the fascists are calling from inside the House.

And the Senate.

 

[Satchel 6982]

The Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) will meet in Budapest next spring, Miklós Szánthó, director of the pro-Fidesz Centre for Fundamental Rights, announced on Wednesday.

Hungarian and American conservatives are linked through “respect for traditional values, love for the homeland, as well as appreciation for the family, safety of the nation, and protection of the borders”, Szánthó told a press conference. “They are separated by an ocean, still, they feel in both countries that their lifestyle is under a comprehensive attack,” he insisted.

https://hungarytoday.hu/us-conservatives-fidesz-govt-event-budapest-next-spring/

 

[DDD Dad 14571]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

It will 100% happen. And if it's not enough, a Republican-controlled House absolutely will refuse to certify a Democratic presidential victory. 

If Dems don't hold the House in 2022, American democracy is doomed for a generation at least. And given their lack of urgency on voting rights, it's pretty clear Dem leadership doesn't really care and it's pretty safe to go ahead and assume they're going to lose the House. 

It's already happening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/us/politics/wisconsin-republicans-decertify-election.html

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2649]

16 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I dunno. Now the fascists are calling from inside the House.

And the Senate.

 

Ha. He literally called FDR a facist for centralizing federal power, gaining control of the courts (packing the Supreme Court), breaking tradition by seaking a third term, and causing flooding/destruction of his town (makings of the Highland lakes via the new deal).   He was raving that FDR was following the Hitler method of creating a dictatorship. 

plus while he doesn’t mention it, FDR did preside over the entire interment camp fiasco. Which I would consider pretty fascist like.  

We can mock my great grandpa’s fears since we know how it all turned out, but you can see his point.

 

Anyway. Sorry to sidetrack the thread. I just thought it was funny. Wonder how people will look back at our ravings 80 years from now. 
 

[wildcat09 29556]

We probably won't have stable nationwide electricity 80 years from now, so nobody will be able to go back and read these posts.

So we've got that going for us, at least.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

3 minutes ago, ONE YARD said:

Ha. He literally called FDR a facist for centralizing federal power, gaining control of the courts (packing the Supreme Court), breaking tradition by seaking a third term, and causing flooding/destruction of his town (makings of the Highland lakes via the new deal).   He was raving that FDR was following the Hitler method of creating a dictatorship. 

plus while he doesn’t mention it, FDR did preside over the entire interment camp fiasco. Which I would consider pretty fascist like.  

We can mock my great grandpa’s fears since we know how it all turned out, but you can see his point.

 

Anyway. Sorry to sidetrack the thread. I just thought it was funny. Wonder how people will look back at our ravings 80 years from now. 
 

No, it's actually nice to go back in time for a real person account so I appreciate the mention of it. I'd consider FDR as more authoritarian leaning than fascist though. Not saying that is a good thing, but it's more like Donald Trump in that regard. Trump is not considered a fascist either. We have neo fascist elements in this country that are gaining ground and it's very dangerous that they have more legitimate power because it won't end well for many of us.

[Underdog 29100]

Where we’re headed… 

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2649]

9 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No, it's actually nice to go back in time for a real person account so I appreciate the mention of it. I'd consider FDR as more authoritarian leaning than fascist though. Not saying that is a good thing, but it's more like Donald Trump in that regard. Trump is not considered a fascist either. We have neo fascist elements in this country that are gaining ground and it's very dangerous that they have more legitimate power because it won't end well for many of us.

Agreed. I just think I’m an optimist. Things truly are scary now, but deep inside I feel/know it will work out. Like it always does.   The Republic will survive, thrive and improve as it always has. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by ONE YARD

[Bateshorn 9989]

2 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Gonna be fucking nuts when certain state legislatures override the popular vote in 2024.

And when the Supreme Court says Governors don’t have to sign off on it.  Then gerrymandering is going to look a lot different.

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

I don't know, I'm a little more hopeful than all that.  Don't get me wrong, I can't believe the current state of affairs.  I still can't believe that Donald F. Trump was the President of the United States.  It's like a cartoon version of reality.  I can't believe a huge segment of our population thinks what they think, but they do.  I can see the backslide and where that leads.  It's terrifying to think of the U.S. and all of it's military (and nuclear) power in the hands of true fascists with evil intent.  I'd have to go underground, hide my beliefs, train my children not to reveal that they are not "with" those in power, but to pretend they are.  It's a horrifying version of the future.

I also see things in the context of a longer period of time.  This whole movement may become a footnote in history.  Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail.  We will course correct because we have to; because it's the right way forward.  Spewing hate and violence toward anyone who is different or who we disagree with is not sustainable long-term.  A brutal, totalitarian regime - who wants that, really?

[Brisketexan 106615]

5 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I don't know, I'm a little more hopeful than all that.  Don't get me wrong, I can't believe the current state of affairs.  I still can't believe that Donald F. Trump was the President of the United States.  It's like a cartoon version of reality.  I can't believe a huge segment of our population thinks what they think, but they do.  I can see the backslide and where that leads.  It's terrifying to think of the U.S. and all of it's military (and nuclear) power in the hands of true fascists with evil intent.  I'd have to go underground, hide my beliefs, train my children not to reveal that they are not "with" those in power, but to pretend they are.  It's a horrifying version of the future.

I also see things in the context of a longer period of time.  This whole movement may become a footnote in history.  Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail.  We will course correct because we have to; because it's the right way forward.  Spewing hate and violence toward anyone who is different or who we disagree with is not sustainable long-term.  A brutal, totalitarian regime - who wants that, really?

Ummm, at least 30% of Republican voters openly want it, and the rest have amply demonstrated their willingness to go along with it, and act as a rear-guard to protect it.

So, in summary, it's a lot worse than you think.

"Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail."  Said plenty of people before Fort Sumter in 1860.  And in Sarajevo in 1914.  Humanity has demonstrated a proclivity for plunging headlong into deadly stupidity, repeatedly.  We Americans are not an exception.

[Satchel 6982]

27 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I don't know, I'm a little more hopeful than all that.  Don't get me wrong, I can't believe the current state of affairs.  I still can't believe that Donald F. Trump was the President of the United States.  It's like a cartoon version of reality.  I can't believe a huge segment of our population thinks what they think, but they do.  I can see the backslide and where that leads.  It's terrifying to think of the U.S. and all of it's military (and nuclear) power in the hands of true fascists with evil intent.  I'd have to go underground, hide my beliefs, train my children not to reveal that they are not "with" those in power, but to pretend they are.  It's a horrifying version of the future.

I also see things in the context of a longer period of time.  This whole movement may become a footnote in history.  Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail.  We will course correct because we have to; because it's the right way forward.  Spewing hate and violence toward anyone who is different or who we disagree with is not sustainable long-term.  A brutal, totalitarian regime - who wants that, really?

Did you ever really think you’d ever see Americans citizens scaling the walls of the Capitol looking for lawmakers in order to murder them? I didn’t.

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummm, at least 30% of Republican voters openly want it, and the rest have amply demonstrated their willingness to go along with it, and act as a rear-guard to protect it.

So, in summary, it's a lot worse than you think.

"Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail."  Said plenty of people before Fort Sumter in 1860.  And in Sarajevo in 1914.  Humanity has demonstrated a proclivity for plunging headlong into deadly stupidity, repeatedly.  We Americans are not an exception.

Oh, I agree it's possible.  The key in your statement, though, is "30%."  It does not appear that number is growing, or if it is, not very quickly.  That to me is an encouraging sign that the tide has crested.

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Did you ever really think you’d ever see Americans citizens scaling the walls of the Capitol looking for lawmakers in order to murder them? I didn’t.

Yeah, me neither.

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And in Sarajevo in 1914.  

Don't forget Sarajevo 1990. Hoo-boy did THAT ever come out well for humanity.

[wildcat09 29556]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No, it's actually nice to go back in time for a real person account so I appreciate the mention of it. I'd consider FDR as more authoritarian leaning than fascist though. Not saying that is a good thing, but it's more like Donald Trump in that regard. Trump is not considered a fascist either. We have neo fascist elements in this country that are gaining ground and it's very dangerous that they have more legitimate power because it won't end well for many of us.

Trump was/is absolutely a fascist, using any of the ways fascism is defined or observed by academics who study it. The difference between Trump and 20th century European fascists was his exceptional incompetence and a longer tradition of democracy here than Germany, Italy, or Spain had, not in the actual characteristics of fascism. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by wildcat09

[lemonlime 5503]

38 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Oh, I agree it's possible.  The key in your statement, though, is "30%."  It does not appear that number is growing, or if it is, not very quickly.  That to me is an encouraging sign that the tide has crested.

30% want a fascism.  There's another 30% who will go along with the fascists for a (perceived) tax cut.

[Brisketexan 106615]

39 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

30% want a fascism.  There's another 30% who will go along with the fascists for a (perceived) tax cut.

And why don't y'all look at the recipes for "successful rise of fascism in a country."  None of the include the ingredient "initial majority of popular support."  Instead, the raw ingredients of "20-30% population fervently supports" and "another 30%+ is willing to go along with it because they either downplay the risks or think it will be to their selfish advantage."  Put those ingredients in a hot oven (which, conveniently, can later be used to dispose of the bodies of "undesirables"), and voila, after a few years, you have a DELICIOUS fascist authoritarian cake!

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

43 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

30% want a fascism.  There's another 30% who will go along with the fascists for a (perceived) tax cut.

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And why don't y'all look at the recipes for "successful rise of fascism in a country."  None of the include the ingredient "initial majority of popular support."  Instead, the raw ingredients of "20-30% population fervently supports" and "another 30%+ is willing to go along with it because they either downplay the risks or think it will be to their selfish advantage."  Put those ingredients in a hot oven (which, conveniently, can later be used to dispose of the bodies of "undesirables"), and voila, after a few years, you have a DELICIOUS fascist authoritarian cake!

I would say both of those numbers are probably high, based on the 2020 election figures.  True Trumpers are probably more like 25%.  The go-alongs for selfish reasons are also around 25%.  Still too close for comfort and close enough so that small things (like an ill-timed FBI report, for example) could tip the scale.

Fascist movements, like any other movement, I would guess, may not start out with an initial majority, sure.  These things pick up steam and grow.  I just don't see the Trump/fascist element with the momentum right now.

[Nivek 17330]

2 hours ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I don't know, I'm a little more hopeful than all that.  Don't get me wrong, I can't believe the current state of affairs.  I still can't believe that Donald F. Trump was the President of the United States.  It's like a cartoon version of reality.  I can't believe a huge segment of our population thinks what they think, but they do.  I can see the backslide and where that leads.  It's terrifying to think of the U.S. and all of it's military (and nuclear) power in the hands of true fascists with evil intent.  I'd have to go underground, hide my beliefs, train my children not to reveal that they are not "with" those in power, but to pretend they are.  It's a horrifying version of the future.

I also see things in the context of a longer period of time.  This whole movement may become a footnote in history.  Cooler heads and more reasonable minds will prevail.  We will course correct because we have to; because it's the right way forward.  Spewing hate and violence toward anyone who is different or who we disagree with is not sustainable long-term.  A brutal, totalitarian regime - who wants that, really?

Republicans.  Republicans exactly want that.  As long as the brutality is directed towards the libs, educated, and non-whites. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No, it's actually nice to go back in time for a real person account so I appreciate the mention of it. I'd consider FDR as more authoritarian leaning than fascist though. Not saying that is a good thing, but it's more like Donald Trump in that regard. Trump is not considered a fascist either. We have neo fascist elements in this country that are gaining ground and it's very dangerous that they have more legitimate power because it won't end well for many of us.

I must’ve forgot the time good old authoritarian FDR lost an election, attempted a coup and incited an insurrection attack on the capitol. 

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

7 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Republicans.  Republicans exactly want that.  As long as the brutality is directed towards the libs, educated, and non-whites. 

I agree that they think they want that.  However, what I have seen empirically, though from a very small sample size, is that Republicans of that ilk fold up like a cheap tent at the first sign of challenge in the flesh.  It's one thing to carp on Facebook.  It's another thing to say something insulting and/or ignorant to my face. Many of them are very easily disarmed in person.  It's like the veil is lifted when it's no longer theoretical and people you actually know and care about are participating in the discussion. I think they might sing a different tune when it's their friends and relatives who are in the concentration camps.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Ojo Rojo

[wildcat09 29556]

19 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

 

I would say both of those numbers are probably high, based on the 2020 election figures.  True Trumpers are probably more like 25%.  The go-alongs for selfish reasons are also around 25%.  Still too close for comfort and close enough so that small things (like an ill-timed FBI report, for example) could tip the scale.

Fascist movements, like any other movement, I would guess, may not start out with an initial majority, sure.  These things pick up steam and grow.  I just don't see the Trump/fascist element with the momentum right now.

Fascists movements have NEVER had majority support anywhere they've taken power. Your understanding of how fascism works is sorely lacking.

[wildcat09 29556]

"They'll wake up once they realize they sent their own friends and relatives to concentration camps" isn't something I expected to hear from someone trying to downplay the threat posed by fascists.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

23 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I must’ve forgot the time good old authoritarian FDR lost an election, attempted a coup and incited an insurrection attack on the capitol. 

I said leaning for a reason Mr. James. He was a wartime leader and needed to address some of the rising fascist proponents on the homefront. That he used those leanings for good, to combat the "economic royalists" as he called them is to our benefit. I'm not the Claremont Institute here, trying to equate him to Voldemort because he was a proponent of the New Deal.

@wildcat09 perhaps you can direct me to the academics who were referring to Trump as a fascist leader? Those that I was listening to, such as *Ruth Ben Ghiat among others, did not refer to him as such. However, he is surrounded by supporters of fascism so perhaps they are one and the same. I believe those academics make a distinction but since it is not my wheelhouse, I defer to their expertise. If you've got some sources, I'm happy to learn more.

 

*This is an interview with several people, and they discuss Trump specifically. They're using the term autocratic/authoritarian.

https://ruthbenghiat.com/2020/07/what-is-fascism/

 

[F250 29171]

1 hour ago, lemonlime said:

30% want a fascism.  There's another 30% who will go along with the fascists for a (perceived) tax cut.

The fascists have always been here they were a strong political movement in the 30's and went into the shadows after Pearl Harbor but never really left. From The Dangers of American Fascism by Henry Wallace written at the end of WWII.

 

Quote

American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery.

https://truthout.org/articles/the-dangers-of-american-fascism/

 

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Fascists movements have NEVER had majority support anywhere they've taken power. Your understanding of how fascism works is sorely lacking.

Entirely possible, but if fascism works the way you think then why aren't we currently in a fascist state?

23 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"They'll wake up once they realize they sent their own friends and relatives to concentration camps" isn't something I expected to hear from someone trying to downplay the threat posed by fascists.

Yeah, that's putting the cart before the horse by me.  The point is that I think there just might be a moment before we've reached the point of no return where a lot of people supporting the fascists have a moment where they realize that a lot of people who they know and love, and who they otherwise have no beef with, are going to be hurt.  I've just seen it happen myself and I think the same thing could happen on a much larger scale. It's probably naive of me to think that the types wearing Maga hats and flying Qanon flags would have that kind of introspection or moment of clarity, but again, I've seen it happen.

[F250 29171]

46 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I must’ve forgot the time good old authoritarian FDR lost an election, attempted a coup and incited an insurrection attack on the capitol. 

Executive Order 9066 was pretty fucking authoritarian. I'm sure someone can argue that the ends justify the means but that executive order was not a feature of Western Liberal Democracy.

 

[DDD Dad 14571]

3 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

It's probably naive of me to think that the types wearing Maga hats and flying Qanon flags would have that kind of introspection or moment of clarity, but again, I've seen it happen.

There's nothing probable about it.  Those types are irredeemable.  

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

There's nothing probable about it.  Those types are irredeemable.  

Most.  Not all.

I envision it sort of like the scene in Lord of the Flies where Jack's tribe sees the naval officer and realizes what they've been doing is crazy.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Ojo Rojo

[DDD Dad 14571]

3 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Most.  Not all.

I envision it sort of like the scene in Lord of the Flies where Jack's tribe sees the naval officer and realizes what they've been doing is crazy.

Let's just agree that the number who might be reachable is so small as to not move the needle.