The state of democracy in America.

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

Let's just agree that the number who might be reachable is so small as to not move the needle.  

I don't really have a sense for what the true number might be, but I think it's probably more than you think.

[lemonlime 5503]

9 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Entirely possible, but if fascism works the way you think then why aren't we currently in a fascist state?

Yeah, that's putting the cart before the horse by me.  The point is that I think there just might be a moment before we've reached the point of no return where a lot of people supporting the fascists have a moment where they realize that a lot of people who they know and love, and who they otherwise have no beef with, are going to be hurt.  I've just seen it happen myself and I think the same thing could happen on a much larger scale. It's probably naive of me to think that the types wearing Maga hats and flying Qanon flags would have that kind of introspection or moment of clarity, but again, I've seen it happen.

Yes.  It's not like there's one magic moment where you abruptly transition from a free society to a fascist state.  It's highly likely the 2022 and 2024 elections will not be free and fair.  The rural areas have tons more voting power than where people live, already, and there's already extreme gerrymandering.  We currently house about 20% of the world's prisoners, but have 4.2% of the world's population.  We spend about as much on our military as the entire rest of the world combined.  The only country with a higher budget for policing than us is China.  And we have way more guns per capita than any other country in the world. I'm not sure why you think a fascist state looks different from that, other than noone is censoring facebook yet.

[DDD Dad 14571]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I don't really have a sense for what the true number might be, but I think it's probably more than you think.

There are literally thousands of them choosing death over a vaccine for political purposes.  I don't know how you reach people like that.  Not when they've embraced the idea of "alternative facts."  A worldwide pandemic not only didn't reach them but caused them to move farther to the extreme, and not just "most" of them, nearly all of them.

Edited November 23, 2021 by DDD Dad

[wildcat09 29556]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:36 PM, Ojo Rojo said:

Entirely possible, but if fascism works the way you think then why aren't we currently in a fascist state?

Yeah, that's putting the cart before the horse by me.  The point is that I think there just might be a moment before we've reached the point of no return where a lot of people supporting the fascists have a moment where they realize that a lot of people who they know and love, and who they otherwise have no beef with, are going to be hurt.  I've just seen it happen myself and I think the same thing could happen on a much larger scale. It's probably naive of me to think that the types wearing Maga hats and flying Qanon flags would have that kind of introspection or moment of clarity, but again, I've seen it happen.

1. Because Trump is exceptionally incompetent and most of the people he surrounded himself with were more into the graft than the fascism. The sequencing was probably important too. For prior fascist regimes, there were many years of work put in by fascists to lay the foundations that were necessary for them to take power and overthrow the existing political orders. I'm talking years of propaganda that undermined people's faith in and support for the existing governments and social orders, combined with constant attacks against an "other" that were blamed for all of society's ills. So by the time Hitler was appointed Chancellor or Mussolini marched on Rome, there wasn't enough support for any of their opposition. In our case, Trump took a shortcut to power by running as a member of an existing political party. They didn't really start laying the foundations until his first campaign and one presidential term wasn't enough time to do the rest of the damage they needed. They're finishing that up now though by stealing control of the election systems in swing states.

2. Fascism is little different from a cult. People buy in for different reasons, some are more fervent than others, but after a certain point it doesn't really matter why you joined. You've cut everyone that isn't part of the cult out of your life and even if you begin to realize on some level that maybe you were wrong, you feel like it's too late to go back. Some people leave cults, but not many. What you've seen is the exception.  Even neo nazis can be deradicalized. But fascism as a mass movement can't be and deradicalization specialists are the first to say this. It takes extraordinary effort to deradicalize a person; it simply isn't scalable to a movement.

Edited December 13, 2021 by wildcat09

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Yes.  It's not like there's one magic moment where you abruptly transition from a free society to a fascist state.  It's highly likely the 2022 and 2024 elections will not be free and fair.  The rural areas have tons more voting power than where people live, already, and there's already extreme gerrymandering.  We currently house about 20% of the world's prisoners, but have 4.2% of the world's population.  We spend about as much on our military as the entire rest of the world combined.  The only country with a higher budget for policing than us is China.  And we have way more guns per capita than any other country in the world. I'm not sure why you think a fascist state looks different from that, other than noone is censoring facebook yet.

Because those things you listed are not what make a fascist state.  None of those things are good, in my opinion, but they are also not indicators that we are already living in a fascist state.  We had an attempt to corrupt our elections, an attempt to toss out the result of a legitimate election, an attempted coup, etc.  All attempts; none successful.  Our representatives are still duly elected through legitimate elections, flawed though it may be.  The court system is still functioning.  Opposition still has a voice.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

America has been a flawed democracy by design since inception.  More democracy vs less democracy has always been a fault line among the factions.  The difference today is one side is overtly willing to eliminate democracy to achieve their political goals. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Macanudo 13253]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

 Our representatives are still duly elected through legitimate elections, flawed though it may be.  

How long before House and Senate seats start getting contested?   Wanna bet the R's try something like that to end up with a super majority in the Senate to avoid any filibuster tactics?

[Brisketexan 106615]

23 minutes ago, F250 said:

Executive Order 9066 was pretty fucking authoritarian. I'm sure someone can argue that the ends justify the means but that executive order was not a feature of Western Liberal Democracy.

 

YEP.

And I'll say, on our visit to the Manzanar Camp site and accompanying museum, it was hard to fight back the tears of regret and rage -- WE did this.  In OUR name.  And it has ALWAYS been lurking in our nature.  Fundamentally, its not inherently a "partisan" issue - it's an existing flaw in our American character.  However, in today's climate, one party is openly championing it, so that's the one we oughta deal with.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Among the things that frustrate me is fascism doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Certain conditions have to exist: 1. legitimate grievances going unaddressed. 2. obscene wealth/power concentrations.  3. Erosion of the rule of law (unchecked corruption). 4. democratic institutions failing to address 1, 2, and 3.  It’s like we know exactly what is wrong but the system refuses to correct course.  Sad!

[lemonlime 5503]

Because those things you listed are not what make a fascist state.  None of those things are good, in my opinion, but they are also not indicators that we are already living in a fascist state.  We had an attempt to corrupt our elections, an attempt to toss out the result of a legitimate election, an attempted coup, etc.  All attempts; none successful.  Our representatives are still duly elected through legitimate elections, flawed though it may be.  The court system is still functioning.  Opposition still has a voice.

They’re pretty close to this

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

They’re pretty close to this

[lemonlime 5503]

[Pods 7622]

8 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Yes, but aside from doing, or making spurious claims about...everything on that list, what has the current GQP done to indicate that they are a fascist movement intent on destroying democracy?

It's only a building movement and we obviously can't take it seriously until it has fully taken over and has majority support.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Pods

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Related to the thread title, uh we haven’t had “Democracy” for some time.  The two party system is the illusion of choice. We live in a corporate oligarchy. 

 Absolutely one side has fascist tendencies and expresses them openly.  And both sides vote for a military budget that any fascist would love while telling you with a straight face what they cannot afford to do to help you.

[Biff Tannen 46060]

18 hours ago, heso said:

That label of “backsliding democracy” has been obvious for a while to anyone that would accept it as truth. Unfortunately it will be flatly rejected as nonsense by the people that need to hear it. 

 

7 hours ago, StruggleBus said:

Perfect

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

22 minutes ago, Pods said:

Yes, but aside from doing, or making spurious claims about...everything on that list, what has the current GQP done to indicate that they are a fascist movement intent on destroying democracy?

The insurrection? 

[YChang 3531]

All the more reason to fight for what's right. 

[DDD Dad 14571]

39 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Username checks out.

[Satchel 6982]

43 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Among the things that frustrate me is fascism doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Certain conditions have to exist: 1. legitimate grievances going unaddressed. 2. obscene wealth/power concentrations.  3. Erosion of the rule of law (unchecked corruption). 4. democratic institutions failing to address 1, 2, and 3.  It’s like we know exactly what is wrong but the system refuses to correct course.  Sad!

Absolutely this.

[Ojo Rojo 2040]

14 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The insurrection? 

I think ol' Pods was being sarcastic.

[Satchel 6982]

From the article:

The report said the number of backsliding democracies in the world had doubled in the past decade.

In addition to “established democracies” such as the US, the list includes European Union member states Hungary, Poland, and Slovenia.

Two countries that were on the list last year – Ukraine and North Macedonia – were removed this year after their situations improved.

Meanwhile, Turkey, Nicaragua, Serbia, Poland, and Brazil were rated as having the most significant democratic declines over the last decade.

[Macanudo 13253]

31 minutes ago, YChang said:

All the more reason to fight for what's right. 

The right to party?

[atomheartbevo 90543]

4 hours ago, Macanudo said:

How long before House and Senate seats start getting contested?   Wanna bet the R's try something like that to end up with a super majority in the Senate to avoid any filibuster tactics?

They had their chance to go full-blown in contesting all of the D seats last year. There's a lot of reasons why this won't happen, and there is a reason why some Republicans eventually compromise on some Democratic legislation (including people like Mitch McConnell) - they have to keep the corporations happy.

When a politician becomes extremely unlikable or ineffective at getting things done (or both), they aren't bankable to corporations and they start to lose corporate donations and access to corporate lobbyists.  They need that corporate money now more than ever, especially as the ability for smaller campaigns to gain traction through social media, etc. increases. Corporations don't like potential boycotts over their choice of politicians, and they also aren't that loyal to politicians - that corporate backing goes to whoever can deliver what those corporations want, and the corporations give no shits if it's a (D) or an (R).

 

[mchookem 16727]

about right

[Satchel 6982]

https://twitter.com/muellershewrote/status/1467671035700908032?s=12

[tx 3 putt 78468]

2 hours ago, Satchel said:

https://twitter.com/muellershewrote/status/1467671035700908032?s=12

 

hang them in front of the capitol 

[Fastbreak 4012]

I think a real question needs to be asked about why these people want to destroy America. There has to be something I am not seeing about the root cause?

Once we hit a certain point we will never be able to come back, and 2024 is looking like that point in time. I don’t think the country will last through the decade.

Before the election I predicted here that there would be a civil war coming. Now I think that the side for freedom is too weak to fight and it will simply be a silent takeover. 

[Satchel 6982]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1468046135063314434?s=20

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[Biff Tannen 46060]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Wtf France and Germany?  Not like we didn’t save yalls asses twice. 

[Biff Tannen 46060]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:07 AM, Fastbreak said:

I think a real question needs to be asked about why these people want to destroy America. There has to be something I am not seeing about the root cause?

Once we hit a certain point we will never be able to come back, and 2024 is looking like that point in time. I don’t think the country will last through the decade.

Before the election I predicted here that there would be a civil war coming. Now I think that the side for freedom is too weak to fight and it will simply be a silent takeover. 

The politicians are doing it to maintain power, full stop. The voters are too stupid to understand what they are doing and what the consequences will be. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

15 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Wtf France and Germany?  Not like we didn’t save yalls asses twice. 

Well since trump is still roaming free and has yet to be hung for treason I tend to agree with their assessment. 

[ndawg 1242]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:07 AM, Fastbreak said:

I think a real question needs to be asked about why these people want to destroy America. There has to be something I am not seeing about the root cause?

Once we hit a certain point we will never be able to come back, and 2024 is looking like that point in time. I don’t think the country will last through the decade.

Before the election I predicted here that there would be a civil war coming. Now I think that the side for freedom is too weak to fight and it will simply be a silent takeover. 

That first paragraph sort of implies that people are consciously thinking about the ramifications of their actions. I don't think that's the case.

Imagine, for a second, that Trump summoned the GOP's leadership to a private meeting in secret. Now imagine he told them he will sink the party -- something he absolutely has shown a willingness to do -- if they don't make sure he "gets the votes he needs" when he runs in 2024. What would the GOP do? Faced with a choice between losing their power, and giving in to Trump's demands for an engineered electoral victory in 2024, I pinky-swear-promise that the broader consequences would not factor in to those people's decision. And hypothetical secret meetings aside, Trump has taken every opportunity to present that dilemma to the GOP. Get him the votes, or he will destroy it all. He's actually done it all in plain view of the public, it's just been too shocking for most people to accept, so they reassured themselves. "It can't be this bad." It's every bit that bad.

American democracy is not being destroyed by design. It's crumbling because it's moral foundation has eroded. The character and integrity needed to sustain its structure is gone. You saw it not only with every GOP vote against both impeaching and removing Trump, but also the way the GOP representatives conducted themselves during the investigation proceedings. You saw it with the way that their propagandist news outlets actively distorted and obstructed their audience's view of the truth.

[JimmyJames 12271]

There was always going to come a day when America would finally have to reckon with its racist past of slavery. Black versus white.
 

That day has finally come. The Republican Party has taken the side of the whites and “patriots” and “conservatives.”  They want to destroy democracy because they know full well that if they don’t they will ultimately lose if democracy prevails.

The outcome remains uncertain.  

[berlinerbaer 692]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:47 PM, Ojo Rojo said:

Most.  Not all.

I envision it sort of like the scene in Lord of the Flies where Jack's tribe sees the naval officer and realizes what they've been doing is crazy.

An then the naval officer turns back to look at his warship.

[pacman 7485]

Trumpers now knocking on voters door

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/sarahmimms/election-fraud-conspiracy-groups-new-hampshire

[DigglerontheHoof 21516]

1 minute ago, pacman said:

Trumpers now knocking on voters door

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/sarahmimms/election-fraud-conspiracy-groups-new-hampshire

please, please, please let one come to my house.  please.

[pacman 7485]

Wish a motherfucker would...!!!

[Satchel 6982]

It seems that the rest of the world is more concerned about the threat to American democracy than are many Americans:

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden has gotten the same troubling questions from worried world leaders, ones that he never thought he would hear.

“Is America going to be all right?” they ask. “What about democracy in America?”

While Biden has tried to offer America’s allies assurances, he has only occasionally emphasized the gravity of the threat to democracy from the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol and the repeated lie from the man he defeated, Donald Trump, that the 2020 election was stolen. And he’s not discussed the very real concerns about a growing collection of insurrection sympathizers installed in local election posts and changes by Republicans to election laws in several states.

READ MORE: Americans don’t agree on what to call Jan. 6 attack

Now, as the anniversary of that deadly day nears, the Democratic president is being urged to reorder priorities and use the powers of his office to push voting rights legislation that its adherents say could be the only effective way to counter the rapidly emerging threats to the democratic process.

The tension in Biden’s approach reflects his balancing of the urgent needs of Americans to make progress on the highly visible issues of the coronavirus pandemic and the economy and the less visible, but equally vital, issue of preserving trust in elections and government.

The president plans to deliver a speech on Jan. 6 focused on sustaining democracy — voting rights won’t be part of the remarks but will be the topic of another speech soon, White House aides said.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/as-worries-about-u-s-democracy-grow-democrats-and-activists-push-biden-for-voting-rights-legislation

 

[pyrohornIII 4844]

Not sure if any of our resident lawyers are interested, but I have a registration link for the following MCLE course.  It's free and good for one hour of credit.  TX Bar Course #: 174144935

Investment Monitor  “efforts to undermine the integrity of US elections carry a heavy cost for businesses and could weaken investment in the country.”

The authors put a price tag on U.S. political strife.

This months CLE features a brilliant expert: Ray Perryman of  The Perryman Group. 

Texas’s voter suppression measures will cost the state $14.7 billion in annual gross product by 2025 and $1.5 trillion over the next 25 years. 

Texas would lose 73,249 jobs by 2025 as businesses and investment exit Texas. 

The impact of our state’s oppressive policies is correlated to declining wages.

"For the first time since the Cold War, there is now concern about medium and long-term political stability of the US business environment,” Jonathan Wood, lead analyst for North America at global political risk consultancy Control Risks, told the reporters. “And what we are seeing in voter suppression acts and political gerrymandering, etc, is undermining that perception of the US as a very predictable and stable environment.”

 The Perryman Group concluded: "While there are many other important advantages to, and compelling reasons for, encouraging political participation by all eligible citizens, the economic ramifications are substantial and worthy of significant attention as restrictions on voter access are considered.”

It's tomorrow at noon-1:30.  

Message me for the registration link if interested.  I'm not a lawyer, nor play one on TV, but this seems interesting enough to put in an hour or so.

 

[Brisketexan 106615]

5 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

Not sure if any of our resident lawyers are interested, but I have a registration link for the following MCLE course.  It's free and good for one hour of credit.  TX Bar Course #: 174144935

Investment Monitor  “efforts to undermine the integrity of US elections carry a heavy cost for businesses and could weaken investment in the country.”

The authors put a price tag on U.S. political strife.

This months CLE features a brilliant expert: Ray Perryman of  The Perryman Group. 

Texas’s voter suppression measures will cost the state $14.7 billion in annual gross product by 2025 and $1.5 trillion over the next 25 years. 

Texas would lose 73,249 jobs by 2025 as businesses and investment exit Texas. 

The impact of our state’s oppressive policies is correlated to declining wages.

"For the first time since the Cold War, there is now concern about medium and long-term political stability of the US business environment,” Jonathan Wood, lead analyst for North America at global political risk consultancy Control Risks, told the reporters. “And what we are seeing in voter suppression acts and political gerrymandering, etc, is undermining that perception of the US as a very predictable and stable environment.”

 The Perryman Group concluded: "While there are many other important advantages to, and compelling reasons for, encouraging political participation by all eligible citizens, the economic ramifications are substantial and worthy of significant attention as restrictions on voter access are considered.”

It's tomorrow at noon-1:30.  

Message me for the registration link if interested.  I'm not a lawyer, nor play one on TV, but this seems interesting enough to put in an hour or so.

 

1 -- duh.  That's so obvious even a caveman knows it. Authoritarianism is not a favorable market for transparent and open business.

2 -- Perryman is a hack.  I shredded him in deposition a while back because his analysis is typically a mile wide and an inch deep.

[pyrohornIII 4844]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

1 -- duh.  That's so obvious even a caveman knows it. Authoritarianism is not a favorable market for transparent and open business.

2 -- Perryman is a hack.  I shredded him in deposition a while back because his analysis is typically a mile wide and an inch deep.

Well you know better than I do.  I appreciate the input.  I'm still going to watch it though but with eyes wider open.  

 

[pacman 7485]

https://smartagain.org/2022/01/05/how-ivy-league-elites-turned-against-democracy/

Just confirms what we know, our ivy league isn't taking the country's best and brightest, rather the most connected.

Edited January 5, 2022 by pacman

[Satchel 6982]

Does it concern the rest of you that so many people don’t seem worried about the threat to democratic norms in this country? As we sit idly by, Republicans are legislating radical changes to our electoral processes at the state and local levels to ensure what Steve Brannon calls 100 years of Republican reign (which is eerily similar to Hitler’s 1000 year Reich). It seems that the majority of the country is not taking this threat seriously. I don’t understand why.

[DDD Dad 14571]

13 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Does it concern the rest of you that so many people don’t seem worried about the threat to democratic norms in this country? As we sit idly by, Republicans are legislating radical changes to our electoral processes at the state and local levels to ensure what Steve Brannon calls 100 years of Republican reign (which is eerily similar to Hitler’s 1000 year Reich). It seems that the majority of the country is not taking this threat seriously. I don’t understand why.

[wildcat09 29556]

21 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Does it concern the rest of you that so many people don’t seem worried about the threat to democratic norms in this country? As we sit idly by, Republicans are legislating radical changes to our electoral processes at the state and local levels to ensure what Steve Brannon calls 100 years of Republican reign (which is eerily similar to Hitler’s 1000 year Reich). It seems that the majority of the country is not taking this threat seriously. I don’t understand why.

Yes. Hence, scotch, ledge, etc.

[Brisketexan 106615]

12 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yes. Hence, scotch, ledge, etc.

This.

We are in for a horrific outcome because

1) the GQP is a full-on authoritarian fascist movement dedicated to the goal of ending the US as a fairly representative republic, and

2) most people who could/would oppose them refuse to believe that the GQP is actually as bad as it is and actually intends to do exactly what it has said it wants to do.

Thus, we have zero chance to stop this.  The fascists are going to win, because everyone else is fucking naive.

 

EDIT: oh, and a key element of the GQP play is misinformation/sowing mistrust of the truth.  They do this by 1) saying that the evil commie dems are planning to do X (ban Christianity, shit like that -- over-the-top insane shit), knowing that none of that will happen, so that 2) when the rest of us point to the GQP's ACTUAL statements about their ACTUAL plans to seize power through violence, they can say "see, this is just hysteria, predicted bad shit like that doesn't happen," pointing to their own insane LIES (that of course did not come to fruition) as proof.  

Say insane bad shit will happen, it does not happen.  Then, when you plan bad shit and someone else says "hey, they are going to do bad shit," point to the example of your own insane predictions not coming true to neutralize any effort to act against your ACTUAL, REAL bad plans.

None of this is novel.  None of it.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Brisketexan

[wildcat09 29556]

I don't think they'll win in the long run because fascists suffer from the fatal defect of being completely incapable of honestly evaluating themselves and their opposition. But in the long run we're all dead anyway and they'll do enormous damage before their inevitable defeat or collapse, simply because too many people believe it can't happen here.

[Brisketexan 106615]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't think they'll win in the long run because fascists suffer from the fatal defect of being completely incapable of honestly evaluating themselves and their opposition. But in the long run we're all dead anyway and they'll do enormous damage before their inevitable defeat or collapse, simply because too many people believe it can't happen here.

They won't hold power forever.  But while they do, the harm and suffering they will cause will be staggering.  And, we will never, ever fully recover.  Our position as the world's superpower and reserve currency will end, much more quickly than most think, and we will never get those back.

We'll be England, but without the ancient history and monarchy to stabilize us going forward.

[retread 2951]

Once they take over in earnest (whatever that looks like), I have trouble seeing how you ever put it back together.