3 killed, 8 injured in Michigan High School Shooting

[Helobious 9462]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/8810588002
 

Oxford High School in Oxford, MI. 15 year old sophomore in custody.

[Biff Tannen 45692]

Figured the second school shooting thread of the day could use a bump.

[Guest Lobo]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Figured the second school shooting thread of the day could use a bump.

Shit, what was the first one?  It's not even 5:00p yet.  

[Jkwellborn 6713]

If the kids were afraid something was going down, why didn’t they tell anyone?

[Biff Tannen 45692]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

Shit, what was the first one?  It's not even 5:00p yet.  

Well I’m counting the gun threat at Crockett, so not an actual shooting I guess, but the point remains. Just sad to see two school gun incidents in the first few threads of DT. 

[Helobious 9462]

10 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

If the kids were afraid something was going down, why didn’t they tell anyone?

The school apparently addressed the rumors earlier in the month. But when it’s this soon after a shooting who really knows if there acfusally were rumors going around or not.

[Bevo 13579]

Snitches get stitches.

[Helobious 9462]

Probably was an actual sheriff deputy, still a pretty savvy group of kids though.

 

[Bogeywon 2519]

My godson/ nephew is 14 and goes to school in district and they locked him down as precaution. This is about 30 mins from my house. This shit is so scary that video made me sick. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

i just watched that sheriff press conference. that dude had his shit together. i was impressed. 

[Bullneck 19181]

2 hours ago, Helobious said:

Probably was an actual sheriff deputy, still a pretty savvy group of kids though.

 

What a curse to give your children.

[Deej 76840]

2 hours ago, Helobious said:

Probably was an actual sheriff deputy, still a pretty savvy group of kids though.

 

Not sure I'd be running to another door. I'd be off through the snow like Tony Soprano running from Johhny Sack's house. 

[Baboontyme 2814]

I'm just at a loss. So many meandering thoughts, frustration, anger, sadness. Had to do the whole conversation with my naive 12 year old. Innocence needs to get shattered at some point, I suppose and I'm fortunate to be able to do it preemptively. Hits close to home. RIP to lives lost way too young. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Probably was an actual sheriff deputy, still a pretty savvy group of kids though.
 

Sheesh. Quick thinking by those kids. Wonder if they’ll follow up on who was on the other side of that door

[Helobious 9462]

Police saying the gun that was used was a sig sauer 9mm. Purchased by the shooter’s father just 4 days ago. Also saying it looks like 2 of the wounded might not survive. One of those killed was a star football player.

 

[Hawndoh 2386]

The "not answering the door even if they say they're police" thing is part of most lockdown procedures.

At our school during a lockdown your room is cleared when police or admin unlock your door with a key. Even if they announce on the PA that the lockdown is over, it's not. The thinking is that it could be an announcement being made under threat.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Doesn’t even move the needle any more. Kids getting slaughtered in school. Oh well.

[Larry T. Spider 1746]

1 hour ago, Hawndoh said:

The "not answering the door even if they say they're police" thing is part of most lockdown procedures.

At our school during a lockdown your room is cleared when police or admin unlock your door with a key. Even if they announce on the PA that the lockdown is over, it's not. The thinking is that it could be an announcement being made under threat.

Yep, at my school only the police unlock doors after a real lockdown.

[Guest Lobo]

What if the shooter kills a custodian or administrator who has one of those big keychains?  And takes the keys?

[Hawndoh 2386]

Then they can open the door? That doesn't change the fact that the kids in the room are trained not to let anyone in. 

Ideally that janitor is also locked down behind a closed door as well.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

22 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

Then they can open the door? That doesn't change the fact that the kids in the room are trained not to let anyone in. 

Ideally that janitor is also locked down behind a closed door as well.

I can't even imagine the mental toll it takes on kids to even have to endure and mentally process those training drills. Think about how completely fucked up that is. And yet, here we are.

[midtown 3346]

12 hours ago, Bogeywon said:

My godson/ nephew is 14 and goes to school in district and they locked him down as precaution. This is about 30 mins from my house. This shit is so scary that video made me sick. 

Yeah that video gave me the shakes thinking about my own 15 or 12 year old in that situation.   If my kids went to a white suburban school I'd scared shitless about their safety.  The parents lawyering up and not cooperating is fucked up.  

Edited December 1, 2021 by midtown

[Hawndoh 2386]

Parents are probably trying to protect themselves just as much as their kid since it was the dad's gun.

[Guest Lobo]

43 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

Then they can open the door? That doesn't change the fact that the kids in the room are trained not to let anyone in. 

Ideally that janitor is also locked down behind a closed door as well.

Right, but what if the kid with the gun gets the keys and opens the door anyway.  Doesn't really matter at that point what the kids were trained to do.  If the shooter knows to go shoot up the Vice Principal's office first and grab the keys...they can do a lot more damage than just walking around posing as Police, hoping somebody will open the door.  

I know, I know.  "NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE TALKING ABOUT KEYS, LOBO!  SEND YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS!"  

Got it.  I'm gonna go pray the shit outta that prayer.  You'll see!  Gonna pray so hard!  

[Hawndoh 2386]

That scenario is irrelevant to the training. It's about mitigating possibilities.

It is WAY more likely a shooter is going to say "this is the police open the door" than they will track down the maybe 4 people that have the universal key, kill them, find their keys, figure out which key is the one that works, and then goes to open the doors. That is such an unlikely thing.

There are lots of nonsensical "what if" scenarios. That doesn't mean you don't implement procedures to address the most likely possibilities.

[Guest Lobo]

i think the procedure is just fine.  I'm glad it's in place.  But there have been a few school shootings where the shooter had access to keys/keycards.  That's another thing to plan for.  There is also the possibility a hacker working with the shooter can open up all the key-card controlled doors ahead of the shooting.  Obviously the students/teachers can still barricade the doors.  A shooter with intimate knowledge of the campus can simply wait until students are gathered en masse in the cafeteria or assembly and get more targets there if they don't plan to make it out alive.  

If we can't plan for all these unlikely scenarios, all of which have actually happened multiple times in U.S. schools in the last 25 years...perhaps we can plan for the one thing we could control.  

Now stop interrupting my thoughts and prayers.  I'm changing the world over here! 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lobo

[Hawndoh 2386]

Those kinds of things have changed over the years. When I first began teaching 15 years ago my classroom key could open every other classroom on my campus.

Now our keys are departmentalized. My classroom key can only open my door and my immediate neighbors that teach the same subject as me. There are legit school business reasons why I would need to access a fellow math teachers room nearby. But if someone ever took my key from me they could only access a small handful of rooms in the building.

There are only a small number of keys that can open all the doors. And I'm not positive but I think the police department also has that key, or maybe the police have a key to a lockbox in the office that has the universal key, something like that, I am not sure.

[gsoda3 3263]

10 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

Had to do the whole conversation with my naive 12 year old. 

what do you cover in that conversation?

[Guest Lobo]

I'm glad y'all stay vigilant like that.  But it seems like no matter how many smart, dedicated people like yourself try to stay ahead of the possibilities, this shit still happens.  Apparently in record numbers.  Obviously that's not the correlation, but no matter what is implemented, the shootings still occur.  The constant isn't lack of planning, lack of preparedness, lack of diligence, nor lack of logistics.  The constant is the fucked up kid with a deadly weapon instead of his fists. 

[CooterBrown 18015]

In these cases, the gun owner should be charged as an accessory to murder for not securing their weapon.  

 

[Guest Lobo]

I hope that weapon was seized because I could see that father spending a lot of time this evening with the business end of it in his mouth, thinking about taking the easy way out.  Can't say I blame him.  He ruined his son's life, the dead children, the lives of the families of all of those victims, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume his wife and other children probably aren't huge fans right now either.  He gets the chance, go out and buy another gun and get this over with.  

[Baboontyme 2814]

50 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

what do you cover in that conversation?

I realized before school even was out that we were going to have to address it because otherwise he was going to hear about it the next day (first year in middle school). Turns out that he and his buddy already heard about it through friends and asked us. It sucked hard. He has pretty severe anxiety to begin with. Just laid out the facts of the incident. He had heard about other incidents and he asked about them, including Sandy Hook, which caused me to choke up and him to cry, realizing the full scale of how fucked up our world is, and what hit home was that it could happen at our daughter's elementary school that he just 'graduated' from. We explained how rare it is statistically and all of the things that our schools do to keep them safe, and that everything in life has some risk involved in it. We talked about bullying, and people who might have issues but don't have any support to work through those issues. I told him that kids would be talking today and to not believe any of the rumors because most likely they would all be lies. He asked if he could talk to the school counselor to help him worry less (specifically as it relates to this) and we encouraged him to do that today. It's so stupid that it's easy to compartmentalize these things and digest them when they're in Florida or California or Colorado but when they are in your back yard it has a way of crystalizing just how real and devastating they are. These things don't really seem to happen in Oakland County and so you just have a way of thinking they never will. 

I was not going to say anything to my 3rd grader until we got an email from the Principal this morning - the typical "Our hearts are with Oxford, kids are going to be talking about it" etc. She's much more mature than he is and I was much more vague, but she was like "Ok". I asked if she had any questions and she said no and that was pretty much that. I told her the same thing about rumors spreading. 

I'm so depressed. I know that here I am likely preaching to the choir, because there are smart people here with common sense, but I am so fucking sick of the rhetoric on this topic. So fucking sick of politics and partisan takes. Kids killing and shooting other kids in school should not happen. It seems everyone can agree on that. But anything beyond that and everyone starts screaming about their rights and the Constitution and puts corks in their fucking ears and isn't even willing to come to the table to discuss any kind of solutions, no matter how big or small they are. This country is fucked because time and again, Americans are willing to put self over community. I have no specific answers but it's got to start there, and that's why it's a non starter. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

What if the shooter kills a custodian or administrator who has one of those big keychains?  And takes the keys?

Train the kids and teachers to mob anyone entering who isn’t a police officer. An inelegant solution, but probably the only practical one in that eventuality. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

[gsoda3 3263]

sounds like you've done a great job cultivating a relationship conducive to open communication. it's so hard to figure out what to say and how to say it.  our oldest is in fifth grade this year at a school that has gang issues and next year in middle school it's going to be even worse.  thanks for your insight.

[TXSG8R 3362]

1 hour ago, Hawndoh said:

Those kinds of things have changed over the years. When I first began teaching 15 years ago my classroom key could open every other classroom on my campus.

Now our keys are departmentalized. My classroom key can only open my door and my immediate neighbors that teach the same subject as me. There are legit school business reasons why I would need to access a fellow math teachers room nearby. But if someone ever took my key from me they could only access a small handful of rooms in the building.

There are only a small number of keys that can open all the doors. And I'm not positive but I think the police department also has that key, or maybe the police have a key to a lockbox in the office that has the universal key, something like that, I am not sure.

Compartmentalizing is the only thing schools can really do.  There are just too many variables at play with buildings that were designed to be schools, not fortresses. You can come up with all the lock processes in the world and then the shooter can walk up to the windows those kids jumped through and shoot just as many people. All their processes are there to delay as long as possible until the cops show up and neutralize the shooter. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

7 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Train the kids and teachers to mob anyone entering who isn’t a police officer. An inelegant solution, but probably the only practical one in that eventuality. 

Train kids to push the teachers desk against the door, and bolt some 1/4” steel into the face of all desks so you can safely hold it against the door if the guy tries to vent the door out of frustration. 

[Guest Lobo]

Just now, Bobby_Batronic said:

Train the kids and teachers to mob anyone entering who isn’t a police officer. An inelegant solution, but probably the only practical one in that eventuality. 

While I don't disagree with the last portion of your sentiment...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the development of that training module.  

Training kids to smother a shooter entering the classroom with the understanding that it's very likely the first 2 or 3 will be shot before the shooter is debilitated. 

"Hello students, today we're going to cover a frontal and flank assault on a would-be shooter entering a room or barracks from a corner ingress.  It was first developed by holocaust prisoners at Dachau during Final Selection.  Okay, let's count off by 3's..." 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

8 minutes ago, Lobo said:

While I don't disagree with the last portion of your sentiment...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the development of that training module.  

Training kids to smother a shooter entering the classroom with the understanding that it's very likely the first 2 or 3 will be shot before the shooter is debilitated. 

"Hello students, today we're going to cover a frontal and flank assault on a would-be shooter entering a room or barracks from a corner ingress.  It was first developed by holocaust prisoners at Dachau during Final Selection.  Okay, let's count off by 3's..." 

The alternative is everyone gets shot until the shooter runs out of ammo or is debilitated by someone else. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

11 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Train kids to push the teachers desk against the door, and bolt some 1/4” steel into the face of all desks so you can safely hold it against the door if the guy tries to vent the door out of frustration. 

If time permits. I don’t even know if it’s a thing, but do all classroom doors open inward? I seem to recall many of them opened outward as a kid, but that’s back when the odd T Rex might poke it’s head through the classroom window. 

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The alternative is everyone gets shot until the shooter runs out of ammo or is debilitated by someone else. 

Yes, I realize how this shit works.  My point was teaching middle school kids the trolley car dilemma, "Either 3 of you can get shot with this approach, or all of you can get shot with the status quo.  Your choice.  Everybody up, let's begin the simulation."  I cannot imagine my children having to go through that.  But I'm sure it's coming in the next couple of years as SOP for schools.  Sadly, if it was a pistol...it's probably the right call.  If it's a high-capacity weapon and/or assault rifle...neither approach is going to work.  I get that whole idea is to buy time until help arrives.  But what if there was another alternative solution where the high capacity weapon and/or assault rifle can never make it onto campus in the first place?  

[Hate 20116]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

In these cases, the gun owner should be charged as an accessory to murder for not securing their weapon.  

 

I completely agree with this.  Whether they knew the kid had issues or not, the gun should not have been accessible to him.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Right, but what if the kid with the gun gets the keys and opens the door anyway.  Doesn't really matter at that point what the kids were trained to do.  If the shooter knows to go shoot up the Vice Principal's office first and grab the keys...they can do a lot more damage than just walking around posing as Police, hoping somebody will open the door.  

I know, I know.  "NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE TALKING ABOUT KEYS, LOBO!  SEND YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS!"  

Got it.  I'm gonna go pray the shit outta that prayer.  You'll see!  Gonna pray so hard!  

 

1 hour ago, Hawndoh said:

That scenario is irrelevant to the training. It's about mitigating possibilities.

It is WAY more likely a shooter is going to say "this is the police open the door" than they will track down the maybe 4 people that have the universal key, kill them, find their keys, figure out which key is the one that works, and then goes to open the doors. That is such an unlikely thing.

There are lots of nonsensical "what if" scenarios. That doesn't mean you don't implement procedures to address the most likely possibilities.

 

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

i think the procedure is just fine.  I'm glad it's in place.  But there have been a few school shootings where the shooter had access to keys/keycards.  That's another thing to plan for.  There is also the possibility a hacker working with the shooter can open up all the key-card controlled doors ahead of the shooting.  Obviously the students/teachers can still barricade the doors.  A shooter with intimate knowledge of the campus can simply wait until students are gathered en masse in the cafeteria or assembly and get more targets there if they don't plan to make it out alive.  

If we can't plan for all these unlikely scenarios, all of which have actually happened multiple times in U.S. schools in the last 25 years...perhaps we can plan for the one thing we could control.  

Now stop interrupting my thoughts and prayers.  I'm changing the world over here! 

 

1 hour ago, Hawndoh said:

Those kinds of things have changed over the years. When I first began teaching 15 years ago my classroom key could open every other classroom on my campus.

Now our keys are departmentalized. My classroom key can only open my door and my immediate neighbors that teach the same subject as me. There are legit school business reasons why I would need to access a fellow math teachers room nearby. But if someone ever took my key from me they could only access a small handful of rooms in the building.

There are only a small number of keys that can open all the doors. And I'm not positive but I think the police department also has that key, or maybe the police have a key to a lockbox in the office that has the universal key, something like that, I am not sure.

 

30 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Train the kids and teachers to mob anyone entering who isn’t a police officer. An inelegant solution, but probably the only practical one in that eventuality. 

 

25 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Compartmentalizing is the only thing schools can really do.  There are just too many variables at play with buildings that were designed to be schools, not fortresses. You can come up with all the lock processes in the world and then the shooter can walk up to the windows those kids jumped through and shoot just as many people. All their processes are there to delay as long as possible until the cops show up and neutralize the shooter. 

 

22 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Train kids to push the teachers desk against the door, and bolt some 1/4” steel into the face of all desks so you can safely hold it against the door if the guy tries to vent the door out of frustration. 

 

21 minutes ago, Lobo said:

While I don't disagree with the last portion of your sentiment...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the development of that training module.  

Training kids to smother a shooter entering the classroom with the understanding that it's very likely the first 2 or 3 will be shot before the shooter is debilitated. 

"Hello students, today we're going to cover a frontal and flank assault on a would-be shooter entering a room or barracks from a corner ingress.  It was first developed by holocaust prisoners at Dachau during Final Selection.  Okay, let's count off by 3's..." 

 

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yes, I realize how this shit works.  My point was teaching middle school kids the trolley car dilemma, "Either 3 of you can get shot with this approach, or all of you can get shot with the status quo.  Your choice.  Everybody up, let's begin the simulation."  I cannot imagine my children having to go through that.  But I'm sure it's coming in the next couple of years as SOP for schools.  Sadly, if it was a pistol...it's probably the right call.  If it's a high-capacity weapon and/or assault rifle...neither approach is going to work.  I get that whole idea is to buy time until help arrives.  But what if there was another alternative solution where the high capacity weapon and/or assault rifle can never make it onto campus in the first place?  

i just again want to point out how inconceivably fucked up this line of conversation is. like completely and utterly broken as a society fucked up that any of these words needed to be typed out.

[crash_davis 23114]

I saw that video last night and it hit me hard. Fucking crazy that shit like that is a common occurrence. Our generation grew up with the Columbine shooting. Now as parents and leaders, we still haven't done a god damned thing about school shootings except thoughts and prayers. Fucking crazy. 

[Guest Lobo]

You haven't updated your "Mass Shootings Thoughts & Prayers" App since Columbine?  What kind of American are you?  There have been 183 mass shootings (many of them at schools) since Columbine.  You gotta plug your phone in and download the updates.  I'm sending out thoughts and prayers so advanced, you don't even know bro'!  

[Hate 20116]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

I saw that video last night and it hit me hard. Fucking crazy that shit like that is a common occurrence. Our generation grew up with the Columbine shooting. Now as parents and leaders, we still haven't done a god damned thing about school shootings except thoughts and prayers. Fucking crazy. 

Agreed.  What should be done?  And don't start with the outlaw guns because that is not going to happen and we all know it.  I'm not saying "do nothing" for those dumb cunts that like to dry hump legs like a stupid fucking dog, but what can legitimately be done?   I say this as a parent of a 13 year old that thinks about these kinds of things every day as I drop off my son at school.  I'd love for there to be a real solution for this.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

10 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yes, I realize how this shit works.  My point was teaching middle school kids the trolley car dilemma, "Either 3 of you can get shot with this approach, or all of you can get shot with the status quo.  Your choice.  Everybody up, let's begin the simulation."  I cannot imagine my children having to go through that.  But I'm sure it's coming in the next couple of years as SOP for schools.  Sadly, if it was a pistol...it's probably the right call.  If it's a high-capacity weapon and/or assault rifle...neither approach is going to work.  I get that whole idea is to buy time until help arrives.  But what if there was another alternative solution where the high capacity weapon and/or assault rifle can never make it onto campus in the first place?  

I understand, but the question wasn’t suggest something to come up with an end to all gun violence in school. It was how to tackle this scenario. 
 

I don’t think the mag capacity has anything to do with it working unless it’s an actual automatic weapon. Obviously reloading a 5 shot .38 would make it a lot harder to shoot a lot of people than a 17 round Glock, but it’s not easy to just point and shoot of 20 people are mobbing you. 
 

Again, an inelegant solution that might save a few lives. 
 
Btw, our school has, or had prior to Covid a group of fathers who volunteered to patrol the campus continually on their off days. Maybe the first to get shot, or a real deterrent. I don’t know. 

[Guest Lobo]

We both agree.  I'm just frustrated, as per usual.  Father Patrol seems like something I'd do, but would invariably terrify the shit out of my daughter...

"Daddy, are you at my school today to see my show & tell, or tell my class about your job for career day, or bring my hot lunch, or do soccer drills with us at P.E., or help with Spanish Enrichment, or.......?????"

"No sweetie, I'm here today to make sure you don't get shot to death.  And to make sure the other dads get to go hunting.  And if you can't see the connection between the two...welcome to the fucking club.  Hallelujah.  Holy shit.  Where's the cocktail situation at your school?"  

[BrickHorn 18239]

I’m just relieved that as a nation, we’ve finally agreed that the solution to rampant gun violence is key control.

[conVINCEd 21469]

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

We both agree.  I'm just frustrated, as per usual.  Father Patrol seems like something I'd do, but would invariably terrify the shit out of my daughter...

"Daddy, are you at my school today to see my show & tell, or tell my class about your job for career day, or bring my hot lunch, or do soccer drills with us at P.E., or help with Spanish Enrichment, or.......?????"

"No sweetie, I'm here today to make sure you don't get shot to death.  And to make sure the other dads get to go hunting.  And if you can't see the connection between the two...welcome to the fucking club.  Hallelujah.  Holy shit.  Where's the cocktail situation at your school?"  

You need to bring a flask.

[Guest Lobo]

Nope, can't bring a flask to her school.  Or peanuts.  Or the compendium works of Balzac and Rabelais.  But you can sure as shit come heavy with an AR-15 as is our god-given right!