3 killed, 8 injured in Michigan High School Shooting

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Sadly some schools are now being designed with school shooters in mind.  I have a cousin who teaches at one.  Not going to get into details, but yeah, this is now a thing for some districts with new schools.

I’ve been saying this for a while it should be been done years ago

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

I think more Waukeshas start happening if you somehow manage to keep the guns out the of the hands of shooters. It’s easy to lay hands on the guns right now, and shooter games certainly have made a mark on children and what is normalized behavior, but I think anyone really intent on killing a bunch of kids can. I could probably take out 40 in the after school line with my car. 
 

I think certain individuals should never be allowed to possess guns or be in houses with them, gun safety courses and evaluations at said courses should probably be mandatory, and failure to secure a firearm that is later used in a shooting should maybe be prosecuted the same as the crime itself. 

We have multiple firearms, but they are secured in a place our kids don’t know about, separate from ammunition, have gun safety locks, the keys are hidden and they are labeled in such a way that it’s not apparent which weapon they belong to. It’s a start. 
 

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

22 minutes ago, Foosters said:

OK!

20 years since Columbine and not a single step has been taken despite multiple attempts at legislation that do not include a "disarmed society." Because the pro-gun lobby shoots them down as a "slippery slope" to disarmament.

Got any more advice?

Yeah. Fuck off. I’m not you enemy in this. 

[Hanrahan 1,306]

I own guns but the wife won't let them in the house because reasons.  I don't really care and I don't really care about gun rights or gun ownership.  Buuuuut, I would be interested in seeing what the statistical danger is from school shootings to an average student.  They're all a tragedy and one is too many and so forth and so on but I'm getting the feeling that as an absolute danger, they're way down the list from walking through the parking lot and water spills in the cafeteria.

[Guest Lobo]

True for the individual student.  But there just aren't many multiple-casualty parking lot incidents or cafeteria spills of cheerleader headers off the top of the pyramid.  Of course something bad can always happen to one kid.  And no sense in trying to mitigate around every single possibility.  I also fear we can't solve the mental health part of this in young people.  It's hard enough treating it in adults after decades of symptoms whom voluntarily seek out help.  We're talking about young people whose whole psyche can turn on a dime with just days of warning, if any.  And they don't reach out for help.  And they have no fucking business being around firearms, yet there they are.

[sidis 9,832]

28 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Yeah. Fuck off. I’m not you enemy in this. 

in all seriousness, you begging off is just another kick of the can.  i think foosters made a good point...whenever incremental steps are proposed, they are bastardized and mischaracterized and reframed as slippery slope, brown jackboots coming for your guns.  so perhaps some ideas that originate from folks with your perspective could be helpful and constructive.  what do you think would be the appropriate incremental steps that can't be miscast as disarmament that may aid in mitigating these increasingly recurring events?

[Sonofjorel76 16]

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/01/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-ethan-crumbley/8821482002/

[Sonofjorel76 16]

looks like the school met with the kid the day before the shooting, and his parents the morning of the shooting.   Crazy shit  

[DDD Dad 14,344]

6 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Train the kids and teachers to mob anyone entering who isn’t a police officer. An inelegant solution, but probably the only practical one in that eventuality. 

 

[Hawndoh 2,386]

4 minutes ago, Sonofjorel76 said:

looks like the school met with the kid the day before the shooting, and his parents the morning of the shooting.   Crazy shit  

Guessing some kind of disciplinary action was about to take place that set him off. 

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

OK!

20 years since Columbine and not a single step has been taken despite multiple attempts at legislation that do not include a "disarmed society." Because the pro-gun lobby shoots them down as a "slippery slope" to disarmament.

Got any more advice?

How about enforce the gun laws that are already on the books? 3 of the 4 guns that were used in the Columbine shooting were obtained via straw purchase, yet no charges were ever brought against the purchaser 

[High Plains Drifter 11,050]

 

7 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

In these cases, the gun owner should be charged as an accessory to murder for not securing their weapon.  

 

 

Dad who bought the gun should be up on 4 accessory to murder charges right goddamn now.

 

amirite surly gun nuts?

 

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23,480]

15 minutes ago, sidis said:

in all seriousness, you begging off is just another kick of the can.  i think foosters made a good point...whenever incremental steps are proposed, they are bastardized and mischaracterized and reframed as slippery slope, brown jackboots coming for your guns.  so perhaps some ideas that originate from folks with your perspective could be helpful and constructive.  what do you think would be the appropriate incremental steps that can't be miscast as disarmament that may aid in mitigating these increasingly recurring events?

Hold the parents criminally responsible if a firearm used in a crime by a youth was not reasonably secured.  

[Helobious 9,464]

Spoiler

 

Alleged social media post as well as the suspect.

[52-80 19,205]

45 minutes ago, sidis said:

.  so perhaps some ideas that originate from folks with your perspective could be helpful and constructive.  what do you think would be the appropriate incremental steps that can't be miscast as disarmament that may aid in mitigating these increasingly recurring events?

I believe he literally described what youre asking for, more than once, multiple posts back….if people cared to read and consider more than they do shouting their viewpoints (which is great for discourse btw)

 

good movie gif though

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

 

Yup. That’s what is implied with an inelegant solution. The kids can either sit there and wait to be shot if escape out a window isn’t possible, or they can rush the attacker, probably overwhelm him and suffer some casualties in the process.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 hours ago, sidis said:

in all seriousness, you begging off is just another kick of the can.  i think foosters made a good point...whenever incremental steps are proposed, they are bastardized and mischaracterized and reframed as slippery slope, brown jackboots coming for your guns.  so perhaps some ideas that originate from folks with your perspective could be helpful and constructive.  what do you think would be the appropriate incremental steps that can't be miscast as disarmament that may aid in mitigating these increasingly recurring events?

In all seriousness, I actually posted some off the cuff thoughts on the matter. There was no begging off. Bother to read.

 

And my perspective isn’t that of some over the top gun nut. We have a few firearms and some ammo, but it’s not like I’m subscribed to multiple gun magazines, a member of the NRA or work in the 2A into every conversation. I’ve maybe been out shooting 3 times in the last 18 months. I do believe in a fundamental right to bear arms. I do not believe in a disarmed society or that we will every get there even if we tried. So the answer has to be in between. It’s not some single armed SRO, every teacher being armed with a gun or building schools with shooters in mind. I’m open to solutions, but I’d also point out that most of the places trying to address gun violence of all kinds by limiting or banning guns seem to be hotspots for the laws meant to stop it. So just throwing some laws at the problem is not a complete solution either.

[Willfully Horn 8,039]

Our society sees too many firearm deaths. Speaking more broadly than the horror of such deaths in schools, taking a hard line and seeing negligence, not accident, when appropriate would get the needle unstuck. IMO.

Ive heard hard core gun rights folks say, here on Surly, that stricter gun laws should focus on sentencing. Broaden that belief to charging negligence, whether in storage or handling of firearms, in unjustified shooting deaths. Murder  and manslaughter being worse, of course.

If I’m missing something on this point, please let me know what that is.

Next, we should focus on training. Our training regimens aren’t doing the job. Since guns are here to stay, reducing ignorance about gun safety could have noticeable benefit.

Guns are serious business and should be universally viewed as such.

tl/dr I agree with Drifter.

[Hate 20,128]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

Dad who bought the gun should be up on 4 accessory to murder charges right goddamn now.

 

amirite surly gun nuts?

 

 

 

 

***not a gun nut, but I'm fine with that.  I don't know any "gun nuts" that would disagree with that as everyone of them I know are absolutely about safety.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about "gun nuts".

[Anastasis 23,480]

26 minutes ago, Hate said:

***not a gun nut, but I'm fine with that.  I don't know any "gun nuts" that would disagree with that as everyone of them I know are absolutely about safety.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about "gun nuts".

He thinks it's somehow clever, which is why he has posted it to multiple threads.  Apparently without actually reading either of them. 

[atomheartbevo 89,755]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Hold the parents criminally responsible if a firearm used in a crime by a youth was not reasonably secured.  

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/01/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-ethan-crumbley/8821482002/

Quote

Oxford High School officials met with the 15-year-old suspected of killing four students and wounding seven others the day before and the morning of the shooting to discuss his behavior, Oakland County Sherriff Michael Bouchardconfirmed Wednesday. 

The sheriff's office said it was unaware of these meetings or any concerning behavior by the suspected shooter until after the shooting. 

Quote

"We have since learned that the schools did have contact with the student the day before and the day of the shooting for behavior in the classroom that they felt was concerning," Bouchard said during a news conference. 

"In fact, the parents were brought in the morning of the shooting and had a face-to-face meeting with the school. The content of that meeting obviously is part of the investigation." 

If the kid was acting out/saying weird shit/etc. enough for the school to be meeting with him and his parents, and his parents didn't secure their firearms...absolutely hold them responsible.  Hold them responsible for not securing it anyway.

 

[Anastasis 23,480]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/01/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-ethan-crumbley/8821482002/

If the kid was acting out/saying weird shit/etc. enough for the school to be meeting with him and his parents, and his parents didn't secure their firearms...absolutely hold them responsible.  Hold them responsible for not securing it anyway.

 

How many school shootings over the past 30 years have a clear failure of parental responsibility wrt firearms involved? Expand that to situations like the Columbine shooting as well, which did not involve family directly but straw purchases and illegal acquisitions. It's probably a lot.  Would like to see that data. 

 

[atomheartbevo 89,755]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

How many school shootings over the past 30 years have a clear failure of parental responsibility wrt firearms involved? Expand that to situations like the Columbine shooting as well, which did not involve family directly but straw purchases and illegal acquisitions. It's probably a lot.  Would like to see that data. 

Sandy Hook - kid was on some kind of medication to moderate his behavior, had known mental issues.  His mom still got him all that training, bought all the guns/ammo/etc.  She paid for her bad decisions with her life.

Columbine - one of the Sheriff's Deputies later discussed that when they searched one of the shooters' bedrooms, the kid had all kinds of batshit stuff, etc. and that there was ammo, etc.  He made a comment that the parents weren't "engaged" with the kid and didn't keep an eye on his activities, and didn't check in on his bedroom or other things that would have set off warning flags.

There's plenty of these instances where these people were known to have mental issues, and the issues were known by the parents, schools, etc.

[midtown 3,346]

I hated school too but I never thought.  kill everybody.   Skip school.  Meet some kids.  Drugs have you tried drugs?

[Planet Houston 4,930]

This will probably get this thread CR’d quicker than a knife fight in a phone booth, but let’s take a look at the only known direct insight into these parents in their own words, as far as I know:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethan-crumbley-identified-as-oxford-high-school-michigan-mass-shooter?ref=home

Read that article and you’ll come to no other conclusion that his parents knew exactly what might happen and they seemingly fucking encouraged it. 

[mchookem 16,339]

of course she's a realtor 😄

[Baboontyme 2,815]

Well that's something else.

They cancelled school tomorrow. I imagine they will on Friday, as well. We are a few districts away from Oxford but rumors are rampant and our district has been named in some debunked social media threats. Tensions and emotions are high so they just decided to cancel.

 

[High Plains Drifter 11,050]

4 hours ago, Anastasis said:

He thinks it's somehow clever, which is why he has posted it to multiple threads.  Apparently without actually reading either of them. 

 

I was trying to be snarky, not clever.

 

 

7 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Hold the parents criminally responsible if a firearm used in a crime by a youth was not reasonably secured.  

 

Unless the kid stole a blow torch and cut it out of the gun safe, or tortured his mom in front of his dad to get him to reveal the combination of the safe, the fact the kid got a hold of the gun at all means it was not reasonably secured.

 

 

[Helobious 9,464]

Man, I watched some of those YouTube videos that the shooter uploaded as an elementary & middle school kid. Definitely on the dorky side but he seemed pretty normal. Had friends and everything. Nothing like the hopelessly anti-social ones like Cho seung hui, Adam Lanza, or nik cruz. Wonder what happened to him. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

23 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Man, I watched some of those YouTube videos that the shooter uploaded as an elementary & middle school kid. Definitely on the dorky side but he seemed pretty normal. Had friends and everything. Nothing like the hopelessly anti-social ones like Cho seung hui, Adam Lanza, or nik cruz. Wonder what happened to him. 

He snapped and had access to a weapon.

[workswithseed 2,108]

9 hours ago, immortal13 said:

How about enforce the gun laws that are already on the books? 3 of the 4 guns that were used in the Columbine shooting were obtained via straw purchase, yet no charges were ever brought against the purchaser 

He's from California. They already have one of the most strict gun legislation in the country. They still had a school shooting. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/california-school-shooting-friday/index.html

[atomheartbevo 89,755]

3 hours ago, Planet Houston said:

but let’s take a look at the only known direct insight into these parents in their own words, as far as I know:

3 hours ago, mchookem said:

of course she's a realtor 😄

Realtors.

[atomheartbevo 89,755]

3 hours ago, midtown said:

I hated school too but I never thought.  kill everybody.   Skip school.  Meet some kids.  Drugs have you tried drugs?

Same.

And in lieu of shooting up the school, it's better for everybody involved to play a long game - keep tabs on the people who were shitty to you, and then 10 or 15 years down the road, wreck their families, marriages, or careers.  You may have to be willing to sleep with their wives or husbands or moms or dads or take a job at their company and spend some time rising through the ranks before you can get your revenge, but it's much better than offing a bunch of innocent classmates and winding up in prison.

Of course, that could backfire and they could shoot up a workplace or do a murder-suicide with a spouse/significant other, so you have to know when to ease off.  It maybe better to just follow them off to college and sleep with their girlfriends/boyfriends and leave them paranoid about relationships, or sleep with their parents (which really does a number on them, but don't give them the videotapes of it because, again, they could wind up shooting some place up), and then just forget about them after college.

The problem for kids these days, and I worry about it with my kids when they hit high school, is social media.  I imagine that's ramping things up a lot, both in terms of bullies following people around online, but also giving the loner types a place to meet others that might...egg them on into doing something violent/stupid.

Which is why you identify the loners in school, put them in Photoshop classes, let them spread Photoshops of their tormentors around the internet for everybody to laugh at, and it they get their revenge and some valuable graphic design skills.  Oh fuck, then the bullies are liable to shoot up the school. 

Forget all of that, bad advice.  Just do drugs kids.

[52-80 19,205]

9 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Our society sees too many firearm deaths. Speaking more broadly than the horror of such deaths in schools, taking a hard line and seeing negligence, not accident, when appropriate would get the needle unstuck. IMO.

..

Next, we should focus on training. Our training regimens aren’t doing the job. Since guns are here to stay, reducing ignorance about gun safety could have noticeable benefit.

A couple of decades in the war on drugs should tell ya the hard line approach won't work.  What we're seeing and saying with the spike in x_fentanyl death (as compared to, e.g. heroin) is not that the drug exists, but that it's way too easy to access.

Don't permit direct private sales at gun shows.  Increase taxes on firearms.  Shootings don't occur because of mishandling of firearms and gun safety.  Mandating training (and other licensing) as a purchase requirement is more about an artificial hurdle in $ and time to restrict the "easy supply" to guns.  

It's unfair.  It's monetarily regressive.  But guns not an absolute necessity anyway, they're a hobby.  It won't eliminate guns and gun-involved crimes.  But it'll cut down kneejerk shootings from the, err, negligent members of society who happened to have a used glock they bought at a whim for $300 at last year's gun show.

**

Or we can get a bunch of screeching from idealogues and politic-LARPERS and nothing will ever happen because nobody sane can stand to listen to them

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

9 hours ago, Planet Houston said:

This will probably get this thread CR’d quicker than a knife fight in a phone booth, but let’s take a look at the only known direct insight into these parents in their own words, as far as I know:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethan-crumbley-identified-as-oxford-high-school-michigan-mass-shooter?ref=home

Read that article and you’ll come to no other conclusion that his parents knew exactly what might happen and they seemingly fucking encouraged it. 

that's a CR post, brother. we got an active shooter thread for that.

[Baboontyme 2,815]

Quite a few districts closed. I thought it was just Troy and Rochester (in addition to Oxford obviously)

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/12/02/oxford-michigan-schools-closed/8833243002/

[workswithseed 2,108]

9 hours ago, Planet Houston said:

This will probably get this thread CR’d quicker than a knife fight in a phone booth, but let’s take a look at the only known direct insight into these parents in their own words, as far as I know:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethan-crumbley-identified-as-oxford-high-school-michigan-mass-shooter?ref=home

Read that article and you’ll come to no other conclusion that his parents knew exactly what might happen and they seemingly fucking encouraged it. 

That's what I call putting an asshole on a pedestal.

[Anastasis 23,480]

8 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I was trying to be snarky, not clever.

 

 

 

Unless the kid stole a blow torch and cut it out of the gun safe, or tortured his mom in front of his dad to get him to reveal the combination of the safe, the fact the kid got a hold of the gun at all means it was not reasonably secured.

 

 

Most gun safes can be breached by an appropriately motivated individual. 

[workswithseed 2,108]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Most gun safes can be breached by an appropriately motivated individual. 

I guess at some point when you think they're ready to learn how to use a firearm you'll give them the safe code for safety purposes to protect themselves from intruders. I'm not sure, but I could see it.

[Guest Lobo]

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

How many school shootings over the past 30 years have a clear failure of parental responsibility wrt firearms involved? Expand that to situations like the Columbine shooting as well, which did not involve family directly but straw purchases and illegal acquisitions. It's probably a lot.  Would like to see that data. 

 

Good point.  But we're now fast approaching 300 total school shootings in this country in the last several decades.  I'm sure in that large, very large data set, we can find shootings where there was a stolen gun from a parent, borrowed gun from a friend, straw purchase, illegal purchase, stolen gun from a known associate, legit bought gun, stolen from a gun shop or show, lied about needing it for something else, etc., etc., etc.  

The only constant in all 300 shootings is a fucked up person got access to a fucked up way to vent their fucked-up-ness.  I don't know how to fix crazy.  Maybe there's another constant in the equation for which we can solve that has absolutely jackshit to do with hunting and self-defense. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

17 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I guess at some point when you think they're ready to learn how to use a firearm you'll give them the safe code for safety purposes to protect themselves from intruders. I'm not sure, but I could see it.

Where do y’all live where there is a fear of intruders coming in to your home while you are there? I’ve lived in a dozen or so places in the States and the thought has never even crossed my mind. Obviously that’s not to say it doesn’t happen, but is the fear that great that it outweighs the very real fear that teenagers are basically incapable of making sound decisions (not to mention oftentimes experimenting poorly with alcohol)…you want them accessing your guns?

Obviously I’m not keeping a gun in my house because of intruders, but if I was, I’m sure as fuck not telling my teenage daughters how to get it.

[52-80 19,205]

15 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Good point.  But we're now fast approaching 300 total school shootings in this country in the last several decades.

Not that the "real" number of mass school shootings is any more acceptable, but this 300 count is a laundry list of adult-carried accidental discharge, university conflicts, single-victim targeted gang shootings -- incidents that would otherwise be a stabbing, and so on.

[Hate 20,128]

7 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Where do y’all live where there is a fear of intruders coming in to your home while you are there? I’ve lived in a dozen or so places in the States and the thought has never even crossed my mind. Obviously that’s not to say it doesn’t happen, but is the fear that great that it outweighs the very real fear that teenagers are basically incapable of making sound decisions (not to mention oftentimes experimenting poorly with alcohol)…you want them accessing your guns?

Obviously I’m not keeping a gun in my house because of intruders, but if I was, I’m sure as fuck not telling my teenage daughters how to get it.

You only have to be wrong once when it comes to home intruders.  Hell, the wife of an LA music exec was killed in a home invasion just this week.  There are reports of people being killed during home invasions in the Houston area at least once a week or two.  Are these random or targeted?  I have no idea as there usually isn't a lot of follow up as to what actually happened, but they do happen.  I don't "worry" about them especially since I live in a very low crime neighborhood, but I'd rather have a gun and never need it than to need it and not have it.

[immortal13 4,059]

16 hours ago, Hate said:

***not a gun nut, but I'm fine with that.  I don't know any "gun nuts" that would disagree with that as everyone of them I know are absolutely about safety.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about "gun nuts".

Just another example of the CR idiots coming over here to start shit. Somehow it doesn't seem to get noticed by the powers that be

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

Just another example of the CR idiots coming over here to start shit. Somehow it doesn't seem to get noticed by the powers that be

Nah, it's just light hearted banter... they're not trying to start anything (rolling eyes).

[Brisketexan 105,175]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

You only have to be wrong once when it comes to home intruders.  Hell, the wife of an LA music exec was killed in a home invasion just this week.  There are reports of people being killed during home invasions in the Houston area at least once a week or two.  Are these random or targeted?  I have no idea as there usually isn't a lot of follow up as to what actually happened, but they do happen.  I don't "worry" about them especially since I live in a very low crime neighborhood, but I'd rather have a gun and never need it than to need it and not have it.

Except that your logic is mathematically bad.  I'm sure there ARE some places where it truly is wise to keep a firearm nearby (I mean, if I'm tent camping in big-time grizzly country, I'd sleep easier with a .45 nearby).  But for almost everyone the comparative risks of 1) a bad guy busting into my house and doing me harm vs. 2) someone in my home/family/guests being harmed by an improperly secured firearm I keep in the nightstand for home defense are no comparison at all.  The risk of #2 is much greater.

The only way I'd think of keeping a firearm nearby is if it was in a small safe/lockbox of its own.

All things considered, and weighing the odds, I know that my family and I are much safer having our guns locked in a safe than we are by having one loaded and accessible.  Presuming you don't live in a super high-risk area, the math on those isn't even close.

[immortal13 4,059]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, if I'm tent camping in big-time grizzly country, I'd sleep easier with a .45 nearby

I got bad news for you, bruh

[Brisketexan 105,175]

Just now, immortal13 said:

I got bad news for you, bruh

You're a grizzly?

[crash_davis 23,114]

15 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/01/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-ethan-crumbley/8821482002/

If the kid was acting out/saying weird shit/etc. enough for the school to be meeting with him and his parents, and his parents didn't secure their firearms...absolutely hold them responsible.  Hold them responsible for not securing it anyway.

 

he brought the gun to the fucking student/parent/teacher meeting that morning with the intent of shooting up the school later that day. what a fucked up family. throw the book at the parents. 

[Chuckie Finster 22,702]

At this very moment 4 of the top threads in this forum:

School shooting

Threats of a school shooting

Cops shooting and killing a dude in a scooter

Guy shooting and killing another guy trying to pick up his kids

Great thing we got going here.